₦airaland Forum

MostHigh: The seed is of the man always.

The Oath was made to David and not to a woman

The genealogy to be biblically accurate must pass from the man physically.

Then either you or the Bible is right

Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Isaiah 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel

Mary was a decendant of David and Christ was concieved without a man's seed (that was the proof of His divinity)

Thinking of sleeping with a 13 year old baby is the best way to know you have a mental and spiritual problem.

italo: www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

Everything you find in that link is my view so there is nothing wrong in posting the link to you.

It is obvious you are one of Francis' puppets who lack inept understanding of the scriptures but depend on what your fallible pope tells you. Beside posting meaningless and dead sites, you can't explain your church doctrine. What a shame,you are a bad catholic.

italo: Thank God you are alive.

So is baptism necessary for salvation?

You are derailing this thread with your continuous babbling over the same question that has been thrashed out. Maybe you should open another thread on baptism

@ Sal C and Frosbel

Isaiah 1:18
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

The old testament prophets wrote in many places of people who sinned against God, received judgement (curses), repented and were forgiven. There are many that can be cited; David's curse when he conducted census of his army was lifted when he repented, Jonah prophesy to Nineveh was reverted etc. Hezekiah case was quite popular.

Isaiah 38

1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.2 Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed unto the Lord, 3 And said, Remember now, O Lord, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

4 Then came the word of the Lord to Isaiah, saying, 5 Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years. 6 And I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria: and I will defend this city.

Now talking about the curse of Jehoiachin. He was led into captivity shortly after the curse was placed on him, he repented during his slavery and was later restored to his throne

2King 25,27-28
27 And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, that Evil–merodach king of Babylon in the year that he began to reign did lift up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah out of prison; 28 And he spake kindly to him, and set his throne above the throne of the kings that were with him in Babylon

He did not only got back his throne but also had sons born to him.

1 Chronicles 3,17-18 (Johoiachin is also written as Jeconiah)

17 And the sons of Jeconiah; Assir, Salathiel his son,18 Malchiram also, and Pedaiah, and Shenazar, Jecamiah, Hoshama, and Nedabiah. 19 And the sons of Pedaiah were, Zerubbabel, and Shimei: and the sons of Zerubbabel; Meshullam, and Hananiah, and Shelomith their sister:

The curse was clearly reverted in the life of his grandson (Zerubabbel)with the retrace of the exact words with which his grandfather was curse
d

Haggai 2:23
23 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the Lord, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the Lord of hosts.

God demonstrated in this particular case His willingness to always forgive our sins no matter how big and terrible they are. Isaiah 1:18

Anjonu Otta, ekun oko oke.
They said you aren't relevant, I told them they don't know the meaning of that word. They abused you tire for aso rock, their igbin don come use that mouth to kiss the ground under ya foot.

There is something else they do not know about you; You don't forget nor forgive

alexleo: Stop dodging. Answer their questions. its not against the topic. All they are asking you still falls under what you are being taught by your bishop according to the title of the thread. Oya answer them....

Thanks OP, I told him same, he said he answered it elsewhere, I told him to copy from there and paste here, he started quoting NL rules. I don't understand St. Italo by the way, to become a saint in catholism is not an easy task ooo ( I heard late pope John is yet to be made one, they have kept some of his body tissues for the sainthood rituals when they might have confirmed the miracles he performed during his life time). Atleast, help me join in asking Italo to teach (we the ignorant) the tradition and doctrine of Daddy Francis on water baptism and its place in salvation of sinners and he should use verses to support this view from the scriptures.

italo: That is not my view, but your ridiculous assumption.

It seems that our arguments are too strong for you to refute, so in order not to be totally disgraced, you make up your own distorted version of our argument...and debate against it.

Nice tactics...but it will only work when their audience are fools.

We ask you to explain, you won't. We ask you to clarify, you started hiding. You keep screaming water baptism all over the place and we quoted you, you said na lie.

Ok Italo, come clean and explain pope's tradition and doctrine on water baptism, its place and relevance to salvation with the scriptures backing it.

Please in the name of God, don't post a link from one obscure catholic web,.

onelovenigeria: Godson201333
i have written an appeal to the laizo court and i want to come to lagos by next week,to their embassy to submit their appeal letter...pls do you have any idea of how long it takes,becos the programme am going for is for aug 22-27 next month...

Forget about appeal. You will have to get a lawyer to present your case in Rome and that will be quite costly plus the fact that it will probably take 6months to know the outcome. Reapply and make no reference to the one rejected, make sure you repackage your documents very well, there is a thread here on Italian student visa that is quite informative on this.

Bidam: Water baptism is certainly important, and required of every believer. However, the New Testament does not teach that baptism is necessary for salvation.Salvation is by GRACE through faith in Christ apart from the works of the law such as baptism, church membership, etc. To make salvation dependent on the presence of water and the absence of a piano is ridiculous as well as unscriptural.

You just need 2 bowls of water poured over your head by one of the slaves of the pope, shiekenna, you are saved.
St. Italo

italo: Out of the 21 rules pasted above, I dont see any one that says only the OP can complain about derailing a thread. It is nairaland's number 1 standard rule to ensure fair, reasonable, honest and open discussions.

Why are you afraid to open a new thread to discuss Catholic doctrines and practises one by one?

Why are you so bent on derailing this one?

Is it because you guys have been found really wanting?

But baptism wasn't the reason for this thread but you have made it so. Alright, will you answer these questions on baptism.

1. Water baptism in the bible is submersion in a river, why do catholic church pour water on the head?
2. Why do catholic church conduct water baptism for babies?

Atleast, these questions aren't derailing the thread, abi?

Post your answers here with scriptural backing unless if you do not know.

italo: 1Cor1:14.

Next time, just do a google search.

Type something like "Paul baptised Gaius" and the verse will come up.

It wasn't stated and the reason is obvious, you only do water baptism for a believer, should I quote examples for you?.

Italo, if my question has been answered elsewhere by you, why don't you copy and paste it here, you are not derailing the thread by doing so, alexleo will complain on that since he is the OP.

italo: I guess you only read the second part of my post. Let me re-post the first part, this time in bold.



Surely, you wont miss it again.

I am not asking for a thread, I am asking you Italo for what you have to say. I won't refer you to a thread if you ask me a question, so please demonstrate your knowledge of this issue or tell me if you don't know, wish is ok.

italo: Let us take the case of Gaius and Crispus. Did Paul baptise the before they believe or after they believed?

Please quote the verse and chapter of the scripture of this.

italo: In a nutshell, by pouring water over the head of the person in question and invoking the Holy Spirit by proclaiming: "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

If you want a comprehensive explanation of the totality of what baptism is I will either refer you to authoritative Catholic sources or quote from them for you.

If you want to know about a particular aspect of baptism...feel free to ask...bearing in mind the topic of this thread. Thank you.

Ok, I have questions on that. The water baptism in the bible, includes total submersion in a river of thr person being baptism, how come that of catholic uses pouring of water on the head?

Why do you do baptism for babies, knowing that none was done in the bible, besides a condition for baptism is repentance and acceptance of Christ, how do a baby make these decisions?

italo: There are many threads treating these issues. If they are not enough, kindly open another one and I will be glad to enlighten you on the doctrines and practices of the Catholic Church. This one is mainly about the effectiveness of private reading and interpretation of scripture...or lack of it.

However, I will make an appeal. In order to show that you want to engage in an open, honest discussion, raise one issue at a time..not a hundred at a time. Thank you.

Ok, let's start with praying to dead saints

What is He calling you into?

shdemidemi: Our dear friend might disappear to never return if you ask direct questions as such, or he might come up with a copy n paste Roman Catholic document he finds online. If he does not do these two he could arrogantly ask you a derogatory question as his answer.

Well, let's give our friend a benefit of doubt afterall, he is led by the Holy Spirit (abi now?) the way we too are led, but we dey confuse matter whereas, his own leading is the original.

I have also updated the questions as I remember a new confusing practice of the papal's church.

@ Italo, since you are a good catholic, can you explain these issues of (1)purgatory (2)why pope is the head of the church and why he is infallible (3) why you pray to saints.

Kindly support them with scriptural verses.

In addition.
I have been to Rome but never have the pleasure of visiting the vatican, a friend who did brought pictures of dead bodies of saints installed in glasses and placed within the church, you see them when you enter to pray or mass, can you show why this is scriptural in the bible or do you need me to post the pictures?

OLAADEGBU: Who said that Paul didn't have a near death experience?

(Acts 14:19).

Paul was stoned and left for dead here until he came to and continued preaching the gospel.

Later in one of his letters to the Corinthians church he told of his near death experience:

(2 Corinthians 12:4).

John got his description of heaven when he was went to heaven in the spirit. Read Revelation 4:1-4

In the middle of the night faa and you got me laughing out like this, no wonder frosbel calls it witchcraft.

Sir, what you have written up there is a reproach to the church you identify with, good a thing from my previous association with DLBC, I know your statement is alien to what they stand for.

I absolutely don't need those craps to get hook to the cross, this is how people get led to heresy and confusion. I asked for how to authenticate such extra-biblical visions, you can't say.

I will read my bible and my bible alone. Keep chasing silly OBE and continue looking for who has been to hell to tell you fables and unreliable fallacy.

frosbel: Thanks , I am asking out of honesty and not to set a trap.

My belief in Jesus cannot be shaken due to my miraculous salvation experience , so take this as me simply coming across a challenge and not being able to respond logically , posting it here for all of us to discuss.

Thanks again.

Ok then, you are welcome

frosbel: It is the MAN that plants the seed in the WOMAN, so this is partially correct , however none of the gospel accounts suggests anything about Mary's lineage.




I don't quite agree , though I am very liable to change my mind with further evidence, it is clear that the lineage was traced through Joseph, we cannot assume into scripture our own notions.







Matthew's account seems to be the most accurate with one small contradiction , Jehoiakim was cursed to be childless , so this lineage is broken right here :

"As I live," says YHVH, "though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, were the signet ring on My right hand, yet I would pluck you off; and I will give you into the hand of those who seek your life, and into the hand of those whose face you fear - the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and the hand of the Chaldeans. .........., Hear the word of YHVH! Thus says YHVH: 'Write this man down as childless, A man who shall not prosper in his days; For none of his descendants shall prosper, Sitting on the throne of David, And ruling anymore in Judah.' "
Jeremiah 22:24 - 29




Yes, but this is standard practise even in the cultures of today, a child always descends from the seed of a MAN planted in a WOMAN.

In this case,it is not a man seed but seed of the woman, unless you have any argument against virgin birth of Christ (I won't want to get so much into this)

The Jehoiakim curse is another reason why Jesus kingship couldn't have been established through Joseph's genealogy. Mattew is trying to tell us why it won't have been possible through Joseph (even if he were to be is natural father).

I gave you Ezra 2:61 (did you take your time to read it), where a man's name was recorded with the name of his wife (since the woman's name can't be mentioned in genealogy), so Joseph's genealogy won't be the first, it is a standard Jewish tradition.

The fact is there and of course, you are entitled to what you chose to believe.

Akanniade: You are saying the same thing. Mary and Joseph were both descendants of David. Joseph was a descendant of David via Solomon. Mary was a descendant of David via Nathan (nathan was David's son too). Jewish tradition required Joseph's name be substituted for Mary in luke's genealogy.
Why are you seeking a complex solution?

He was probably not looking for any solution but a fault

The question you raised is a theological one and there is no really short answer to it, I will try and make it as short as possible

Christ is revealed as the seed of the woman (Genesis 3:15), hence Christ connection to David is through her mother and not Joseph (who was his legal father)

You will note also it was Nathan that was recorded as the son of David in Luke and not Solomon as recorded in Mathew.

Why is this
Mathew was the genealogy of Jesus from Joseph (who was his legal father) whereas Luke was the genealogy of Jesus from Mary (his mother). And why Luke mentioned Joseph instead of Mary is in line with Jewish tradition, women are not mentioned in genealogy. Jesus as a descendant of David and
the seed of the woman has prophesied in Genesis.

Ezra 2:61
61 And of the children of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai; which took a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called after their name:

Nehemiah 7:63
63 And of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai, which took one of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite to wife, and was called after their name.

The women mentioned in Mathew are all non jewish, hence why their names were mentioned in connection to Christ.

For Example, you will not hear son of sarah, son of Rebecca etc. The women are called and recorded with the name of husbands in Jewish tradition. When Jesus fed people with bread, only 5000 men was recorded and nothing was mention of the women.

This issue is better understood if you read the account from the greek bible.

OLAADEGBU: These revelations and visions are not new, they are in the bible if you are conversant with it. More of these visions and revelations are bound to come according to His promises in these last days.

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit" (Joel 2:28-29).

And how do you judge the authenticity of these out of body experiences?. Besides, these stories are they not near death experiences?

Subscribing

By the way Ola, I will like to know how you get all these hell and heaven stories I have been seeing around. Do we really need promoting those stuffs to preach the message of the cross?

italo: But your fellow "HolySpiritLed" brother said baptism is not fot Gentiles.

That was what the "Holy Spirit" taught him.

Surely, you must agree with him. You are led by the same "Holy Spirit," right?

Trying to be sarcastic or thirsty for the truth??
It is well with you bro.
Peace

italo: But you all claim to be led by yhe Spirit. Can the Spirit lead 5people to be contradicting themselves.

You people are lying jor...because the Holy Spirit I know cannot lie.

You are sure entitled to your opinion sir

italo: You are all speaking English and saying different things.

Some of you believe John 3:5 was not talking about water baptism; shdemidemi thinks it was, but that was only for Jews.

Some believe baptism is not necessary, Alexleo thinks it is.

I can go on and on.

Between you people and the Holy Spirit, one party is lying and it isnt the Holy Spirit.

We all agreed salvation comes through repentance and acceptance of Christ (what is more important than that?).

Paul and Barnabas have difference of opinion on John Mark and parted ways, it doesn't remove their office as Apostles, they both have the Holy Spirit

italo: Whats the use of an ID card (baptism) if I'm already saved?

What is the use of an office I'd card when you have been employed in the company?

Bro, unless you have something you don't want to change in your heart(and I respect your desire), this issue should be laid to a rest and you should bring up another topic that worth discussing (in helping our faith)

italo: And after the trance, Peter understood...and baptised many many Gentiles.

Amen?

He baptised them after they have accepted Christ and were saved.
Amen!

italo: @shdemidemi

Why are you avoiding my questions?

How do we identify this "gifted teachers?"

Now that Paul is dead who will teach us about issues like contraception, ectopic pregnancies, embryonic stem cell research...that Paul never mentioned?

By their fruit, you shall know them. if their teaching is supported in the scripture and your inner man is at peace with it. That is why we individually must study and must allow the leading of the Holy Spirit.