₦airaland Forum

@Enigma,

I will advise you take your own advice as well. Try not to be bogged down by what you think is the truth. Weigh in scripture with scripture and thereby make a conclusion prayerfully.

And again, try not to fall for this labelling becuase all the people you've accused of heresy here probably have varying beliefs in this topic. I for one believe Jesus went to hell, but not as a sinner. I believe the evidence is there in scripture.

All the very best.

@Enigma,

I think I need to explain Psalm 138:2 better for you to understand where I am going. You see in the OT, God's name is synonymous with His manifestation. In other words, a revelation of God comes through what God is seen doing! But in the scripture above, we are told that God exalts His Word above all His manifestations, or whould we say God exalts His Word above His actions.

By that token, we can conclude that His actions are guided by His Word. There is nothing He will do in sovereingty or otherwise that will be contrary to His Word. SELAH!

@Enigma,

In relation to your post no 7, instead of giving you my own reply I will refer you to the article in the link below to see that there are different ways of interpreting those passges that do not agree with what you say. (I have debated those passages and WoF doctrine for going on 10 years now and I'm either too busy or blase to go over them again).

I have gone through your link and it does not offer a balanced view of the topic at hand. Not only does it not refer to all the scriptures that imply Jesus went down to hell, it basically ignores the truths in the verse it addresses. Implying that Jesus went down to hell simply refer to His body being buried stands logic on its head. The Bible clearly mentioned that he went to the lower PARTS of the earth. Please note that the word is in plural and not singular. And Psalm 16 that I mentioned earlier puts emphasis on the soul of Jesus being the one in hell and not His body. So my guy, you have more questions than answers if you keep to that view.

I think your aversion to the possibility of Jesus going to hell is becuase you believe it is only the sinners who go there. Well, the story of Lazarus teaches us that both the righteous and the dead go down into different sections in the lower parts of the earth.

Meanwhile in relation to your post number 11, if I say "God cannot dance" --- what would you say to that?

I will ask you to prove it! Let me ask you a question too. When Paul said "I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me", was he by that implying that he could steal, kill and destroy also? Isn't the "ALL THINGS" he can do guided by God's Word? Well, same thing with God. He cannot break His Word. There is nothing He does that is not guided by His Word. Check out Psalm 138: 2 - for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

@Mamajama,

but we can;t allow law abiding people in seek of good living, who are willing to work and obey the law.

Your argument is so unbelievably lame that every rationale person can pick a hole in it. Why do you call them law abiding? is there any word in the phrase "ILLEGAL immigrant" that you do not understand? They are termed illegal because they broke the same law you are touting that they keep. Either retract your argument or provide us with one that does not make nonsense of that which you stand for.

But do you know, you can not become a USA citizen if you can not speak and write English?

This statement is simply not true. it is only recently that they are trying to promulgate laws that require the knowledge of the english language before becoming a citizen. This is being considered becuase inability to speak the language does not help integration. That is common sense.

I have a meeting now. i'll jump back in the topic when I'm done.

@Enigma,

Naaah; God is sovereign and can do whatever He likes. God does not "need faith" to do anything.

God is sovereighn, true. But His sovereignty does not contradict His Word. Saying God can do anything is not true. the bible declares that God cannot lie.

Tell me can God steal, cheat, lie, be fearful or change? His sovereignty is bouded by His Word which He cannot contradict!

@Enigma,

suggesting that God needed faith in order to create the world (God 'needing' faith to act --- incredible!)

One thing you have to understand is this. God is subject to the same laws He tells us to keep. God will not tell you to walk in love and He walk in fear. If He does that, then He is not a just God. The Bible declares that without faith, you cannot please God. Same applies to God. Infact, the Bible declares that "anything that is not of faith is SIN". Sin is essentially "missing the mark". So God will be "sinning" i.e. missing the same mark that He has established if He does not create the world in and by faith. Remember Romans 3:23? The Bible says the only reason why we have sinned is because we have "fallen short", which is the same thing as "missing a mark". SELAH!

@Enigma,

Firstly, I do not think that anyone can justly say they know the full meaning; but, there are things we can readily work out. "He descended into the lower parts of the earth".  Of course He did; He was buried after His death. And that is all that means.

You need to try and explain scripture with scripture in to come to a conclusion. The Bible could not just be talking about his body being buried, because His body never left the tomb until He resurrrected. The He that went to the lower parts of the earth is His Spirit. Remember Psalm 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. So you see, this scripture, which is a prophecy about Jesus clearly teaches that jesus went to Hell. But it doesn't mean what many thinks it means becuase Hell as taught in scripture is really a reference to the place of the dead. The different compartments are mentioned in the story of Lazarus. The story clearly shows the righteous held in the earth. the differnet compartments in the earth include Abraham's bosom, and the one regarded as the place of torment. there is another compartment called Tatarus where disobedient angels are held. So from all indications, Jesus was in ALL these parts for different reasons.

The only reason I say we cannot say we know the full meaning conclusively is another passage where it says He went to preach to the dead --- that bit is more difficult to interprete conclusively or definitively.

There is nothing difficult to understand there. It is very simple. Jesus was there to declare God's judgment. Sin was already judged and the basis for throwing the evil spirits in the lake of fire was accomplished on the cross. This is what Jesus went to preach to them about. For those in Abraham's bosom, the Bible clearly teaches that they were taken up to heaven with Jesus during his ascension. Remeber that the bible says that many in Jerusalem saw the dead saints on the day Jesus rose from the dead?

As for your other accusations about WOFers as you call them, I dare say you do not understand what they are preaching and you have only done what fear dictates - call what you don't understand, an error.

@cgift,

Why is the cross of the seat of the pope inverted?.

While I am not holding briefs for the catholic church, nor am I in support of the many traditions they prcatice which in many cases "make the word of God of non-effect", a little study of history will perhaps explain some of their actions.

The above quote is a case in point. The cross may have been inverted so as to remind them of the way that Apostle Peter was crucified, whose seat the Pope is believed to be occupying. I believe you are aware of the fact that Apostle Peter was crucified. He requested to be crucified upside down saying he is not worthy to be crucified in the same way His Lord was crucified.

So you see, many of the traditions are very likely based on historical events which the Catholic church should be commended for recording. Without them, a lot of things which are the heritage of the church would likely have been lost. The only problem is that such historical events are made into traditions and incorporated into worship at the expense of the Word. This is where they go completely astray.

@Enigma,

Your concerns are well noted. However, would you be so kind as to elucidate more on what the individuals you mentioned taught about Jesus goping to Hell and what you see as the scrioptural backing to oppose their conclusion?

In the mean time, kindly look at the following scriptures and tell us what you understand by them: Ephesians 4:8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." 9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Let us start with those scriptures before we look at others.

@Mamamjama,

My stand is, as long as the illegal immigrants are not breaking any rules or law of the land.

You just shot yourself in the foot here. Overstaying your visa and/or entering the US without the proper visa/permit is breaking the law. Is we go by your statment then, ALL illegal immigrants should be deported.

@Boondoggle,

Can you confirm that you have the same testimony like Samuel such that the Word declared that "none of his words fell to the ground"? Before you give me a quick answer, please ask yourself some questions such as: Have I ever been sick? Do I have any financial needs? If the answer to any of these is YES, then why would you think you cannot die prematurely? The promises of God that address these areas in your life are no less potent than the ones that address your long life.

Now the problem is not with God's Word becuase His promises as the Bible says are "Yea". However, that scripture does not end there. Rather we are told that the "AMEN" to His Word has to be spoken by us. In other words, the declaration that the Word of God is two-edged puts responsibility for its fulfillment not only on God, but also on us the recipients.

If you are like me, then you sure wont have confidence in your ability to hold up your end of the bargain. And if that is the case, you will only be wise and fulfilling scripture by getting yourself a life insurance in case of your untimely death.

You will be fulfilling scripture that way because even in death, you will be taken care of your household and so prove yourself to be better than an unbeliever. If Abel's blood could speak even though he was dead, I could have my money (through insurance) speak better things, and testify to my faith even though I die. Remember the scripture that says a good man leaves an inheritance even for his children's children. A life insurance gives you an opportunity to leave an instant legacy for your family.

You need to ask your self a simple question. What do you think will happen to your family if you die prematurely today? Are they going to be in financial difficulty? Will your children be able to afford an education? If your answer is a Yes, then you are setting yourself up to be regarded by God as being worse than an infidel in what you and I hope is an unlikely event of your untimely death! SELAH!

@KDK,

am not saying you should know more about God's Ministers but rather be very careful so as not to loose focus of Christ. I will say more later. I have to go.

If you have followed this discussion carefully, you will find that the focus by both pilgrim and myself is Christ. I am of the opinion that the Bible is not about God the Father, neither is it about the Holy Spirit, but rather it is ALL about the Son of God whom we know as Jesus Christ.

That is why I am laboring to prove that the one refered to as the Angel of the Lord in the OT is actually the Son of God. So you see, your concerns are the same as ours (pilgrim and me), and we are doing what we can to bring attention to this deep truth in the scriptures.

Stay tuned for more!

@pilgrim_1,

Well, I don't remember where I might have categorically stated that the Pope will be the anti-Christ.

Okay maybe I misunderstood you, but I believe you will excuse my conclusion based on the following. In response to Jerrymania's statement that: "There is really going to be confusion in the Catholic Church few years from now after Pope Benedict. The truth must always be revealed, the Anti-Christ.", you said the following: "You know the irony of it is that I was initially slow to take that view - but after getting the hard facts together, I can only say that you're absolutely correct! It's only a matter of time."

I haven't read the book, only heard a summary and snippets in some of the tapes of Rev. Chris Okotie. Some good material; but until I read the book itself, it would preposterious to make any inferences at all as to what exactly is the gist of that book

Alright, I'll send you an email so you can respond with your address. I'll send you the book only for you to read and return. That is one book I plan to retain in my library, 'cos it is loaded. It is actually written as a story - a love story laced with a lot of teaching. One of the areas that blessed me the most was the conversation that Jesus had with the antichrist shortly before he yielded himself totally to the devil. It just reveals the nature of Jesus as nothing short of LOVE! I get vey emotional anytime I remember that scene.

Meanwhile, if it's not asking too much, could you also source out another book for me? "America and Britain in Prophecy".

I do not kow about the book, and you didn't mention the author. Here is a link to an online book with the same title:

http://www.abcog.org/abp0.htm

. You might want to check it out.

While I am not sure the Bible says anything specifically about the US and the Great Britain, I am sure it has a lot to say about Iran, Iraq and of course Isreal. The best teacher I know with regards to the role of different nations with respect to prophecy is Billy Brimme. I think I have some of her teachings on my ipod.

@pilgrim_1,

I totally disagree with your apparent stance that the Pope will be the Anti-Christ. It just doesn't make sense. If anything, the Bible is clear that the antichrist will be first and foremost a politicain/stateman, before he will metamorphose into a spitritual leader.

There are many other things I believe makes that conclusion totally untenable. Have you ever thought of the meaning of Hebrews 1:9 - Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows? Who do are jesus' fellows? What makes them His fellows and what makes them different from others? If you can answer these questions, it will broaden your view as to what this great personality that we call the anti-christ is all about.

By the way, have you read The Last Outcast by Chris Okotie? While the book deals with God's mind from Genesis up until revelation, the central theme is on the antichrist. I think i have a copy I could send to you if you are interested. The book will do a better job in explaining what will take me too much effort to explain on these pages.

@pilgrim,

Wetin? Take am easy now. We are yet to tackle the subject topic and you guys are delving into another area that'll take us further and further into the depths of the Word. Anyway, I cannot blame you for trying to correct another manifest error comming from donnie and company. I've had dealings with a number of people from Christ Embassy too, and while I appreciate their zeal, I get fearful of the way they read and interprete the scriptures.

@donnie,

I was hoping you guys will respond to my last post, but you dissapeared for a while and now reappeared and dodging the subject matter. It will be the height of humilty, and you will earn my respect if you will be gracious enough to admit that you guys were wrong, at least with respect to the notion that the identity of the "Son of God" wasn't dinstict in the O.T.

Let me add the following to the new subject of discussion. I have dealt with this before on nairaland, and here is what I had to say: Aside from this, there are 3 compartments altogether that the Bible mentions are in the ground Ephesians 4:9. Two of those are mentioned in the story of Lazarus. Hell or Hades is where the rich young ruler found himself while Lazarus found himself in the bossom of Abraham. I don't believe Lazarus found himself in Abraham's Bossom because he was a direct lineage of Abraham, rather it was because he was also a man of faith. Remember that Abraham is called the father of faith. Hades/Hell from this story is a place of torment and Abraham's bossom is a place of rest.
The third compartment will be found in the Book of Jude and the Bible called it Tatarus. This is the place where all the disobedient angels are being held. These angels were locked up "in chains of darkness" after the flood of Noah because they tried to pollute the human race.
As for Abraham's Bossom, it is no longer populated because Jesus took all the occupants with him to heaven during his ascension. This is what the Bible refers to in the Book of Ephesians 4:8 as "He led captivity captive." You will also remember that when Jesus was risen, people saw a number of this old testament saints in and around Jerusalem. Jesus took them with Him on His triumphant entry into heaven.
obviously, there's a lot to talk about. but I'll give more gist later. I hope this sheds more light to the conversation, though I wish we do not let it derail the subject topic.

@romeo,

Afam:
You do well when you discuss people, stick to this style it really helps, slowpoke.

Are you surprised? The guy can't think for himself now. Have you seen any original posting from him that is thought provoking except the infamous "from my inbox"? He has already being voted the village idiot and the pathological liar of nairaland. At this rate, no one will be able to contest those roles with him!

@Afam,

As you cannot prove the simple task assigned to you, I therefore move the motion to label you the pathological liar of nairaland! May your reign as the village idiot never end! Amen.

,

@davidylan,

Calling Afam a pea-brain is an insult to all decent peas out there. He has no brains.

I do agree with you! I decided to call the pea-size puss in his head a brain so as to give him some credit for exerting himself enough to be able to copy-and-paste the trash "from my inbox."

@Afam,

In reality I had advised RichyBlack to ignore the likes of davidylan, I-man and TayoD ( the 3 confirmed people that use multiple identities on this forum).

I can see the curse placed on you to always get hung on personalities is still very much influencing your sorry life. You just can't get away from turning issues into a personality contest. When are you going to grow up? While great minds discuss ideas and issues, and average minds discuss events, mediocre minds like yours only discuss personalities.

And even in your attachemnt to personalities, you do not show any sound reasoning in your contributions. Can you please show how you confirmed that I use multiple identities on this forum? Let me help you out with the logical way to do so. Please check when last I made any contribution on this forum with the ID of TayoD, and confirm when I started using the ID of Tayo-D! Any overlapping of dates would prove you right, while a lack of overlapping will prove to all what I already know - that you are a pathological liar. I trust this assignement is not too much for your pea-brain to handle.

@Davidylan,

I told you before that I do not believe in free education. Rather than thank you for the lessons in history you are providing for them free of charge, they would rather believe in unverified information "from my inbox" which lacks any iota of scholarship.

@babasin,

I expect him to  task our military guys to launch real incursion into enemy zone and fish out those responsible.

Yaradua can't just have them go riot in a sovereign country. I'm sure you are aware that our soldiers are there by mandate of the AU. They cannot go beyond the mandate given to them by initiating combat. All we can do is pressure the AU to put pressure on the UN to provide our troops with equipment that is good enough to defend themselves against such attacks.

And by the way, that could be a huge task considering the fact that the Government of Sudan considers a foreign and heavily equipped army on its soil unacceptable. So this goes back to the UN taking the issue more seriously and passing a resolution that requires the peace keepers to initiate combat to bring the war to an end. With China milking the country and holding a veto power in the UN, this will never happen. I wish Bush will damn all consequences and go in there as he did in Iraq to bring an end to the carnage.

@Denex,

Oya, it's way past your bedtime. You need to go to sleep now.

@Davidylan, I-man and not to forget kobojunkie,

I do not believe in free education. Therefore you guys will have to send your bills to the Minister of Education in Nigeria for immediate remuneration. You have done well in bringing the light of education to dispel the darkness of ignorance that was revealed through the instrumentality of "from my inbox". Wishing you more megabytes to your internet speed.

@Afam,

Have you bothered to ask why some people would rather lump the 3 of you together and for the wrong reasons too? Take a hard look in the mirror.

In fact the only person that your line of argument is better than on this forum is the complete slowpoke chidichris and it is out of respect that I have not lumped him with you as that would be an insult to your kind and that would also mean elevating him from the very bottom position he currently enjoys to a level that has no business with such animals.

Afam, Afam, Afam!!!! How many times did I call you?! Quit this persoanlity attack that you are so attached to. You are doing nothing but lowering the quality of this debate, and really, I have not seen you address anything close to this topic at all.

I do not believe in blanket commendation or condemnation of a person, group or nation regardless of the facts on ground, it is a wrong way of doing things and you, TayoD and Davidylan are way too guilty of this and that is what pisses people of.

It is not true to accuse us of condemning a group of people blanketly. We discuss issues as they are presented. True, when you take a position, it always appears that you regard all factors that brought you to that stand perfect, but that is not the case. It is all relative. For example, I said before that I believe through my experience, that the Blacks in America are more racists than the Whites. Making such a statement does not mean that the Whites are Saints. My statement is based on a relative comparison of one to the other, and at the same time it is solely restricted to racism and not other social issues. It takes a certain amount of dishonesty to twist what I've said and to now accuse me of "hating anything Black."

Of course, Bush has done some things right, no one can deny that but for heaven's sake we are interested in his many avoidable blunders.

This is the first time I will ever hear you say something about the guy. You sure you didn't mistype?

@Afam,

Nope, it does not answer the question because the statement was made to defend the allegation that you hated anything black.

I said I hated anything black?! Goodness me. Why are you lying over the www like this? Don't you know thew whole world got access to your write up and you put yourself in danger of being confirmed as a liar by the rest of civilization?

Let me make is easier for you?

Has Bush ever done anything wrong as the president of the US?

When did this issue become about Bush? Granted, it deals with US history, but your personality hang-over is still evident by your submissions.

It is true that the US has done something wrong in its history?

Are you serious?! Is this a serious question? And by the way, maybe you should give us a list of countries that throughout their history hasn't done anything wrong!

Enjoy!

Always!

@Afam,

So, have you ever criticized Bush, the US or even the West for anything?

Your answer will surely go a long way in further explaining who you are and what you stand for.

Just on this topic alone, I did mention that racism is a vice that both Whites and Blacks are guilty of. does that answer your question?