₦airaland Forum

Seun: The series is great, but the books are fantastic. So watch the series, enjoy it, then read the books and enjoy them as well. If you watch the series first, you will still enjoy the books when you get to them, but if you read the books, you won't enjoy the series anymore. To maximise your happiness, don't read the books until you've finished the series. Martin is a slow writer so the books aren't going anywhere. There's no reason to rush to the books. As someone who isn't enjoying this season much because I read all the books after the last season, Pls listen to me.

Yeah, this is my fear about reading books and comparing them with films, shows etc. Invariably, you're going to be disappointed in one or the other. Maybe I'd have more sympathy and understanding for Daenerys if I knew her character from the books but I also wouldn't be surprised by the plotting anymore and that would spoil the show a little bit for me.

TerraCotta always repays his debts!

ThiefOfHearts: Last episode was amazing.

I LOVE Margery's grandmother. What a brilliant woman. Sansa needs that in her life.

Well, well. If it isn't ...

PhysicsQED: What is "east" and what is "west" depends on one's orientation and the informants may have been looking at things from a different geographical perspective than the Portuguese they were informing - I think that's the thing that Ryder and Thornton may have missed. Either that, or they considered this possibility, but thought the Portuguese were too skilled at navigation and too competent at figuring out directions to have confused east and west regardless. Maybe Thornton assumes that they would have known to ask what perspective the informants were viewing things from when they mentioned certain cardinal directions. But then again one can also assume that the Portuguese did not bother to do so and assumed their informants were viewing directions from the same orientation as they were.

Yes--my sense is that Thornton gave the Portuguese too much credit for transcribing what they were told accurately. North, south, east, west, notions of time and travel ("four moons inland" = four months' travel etc) are likely to have been much less uniform back then than they are now and probably explain discrepancies a little more accurately than his ideas in that paper do. I think the man does amazing work on the Kongo/Angola region though.

Well actually it doesn't merely come from the internet, it's found elaborated in different forms in non-internet publications. I also stumbled across a lecture/article a year ago when I was doing a bit of searching about Nri's history called "The Politics of Igbo Origin and Culture: The Igbo-Ukwu and Nri Factors Reconsidered" by Nwankwo T. Nwaezeigwe, which sheds some light on some of the Nri-Igala connections (not that I wasn't already aware of the basic information, but this has some additional information I couldn't have found out on my own). I think you can find the article from a quick search. The only thing that I know is an error in there is when the author claims that the Attah of Igala dynasty was founded by a Benin prince. In reality, there was a ruling dynasty there before the Benin prince came, then a dynasty of Benin origin after he came, and then a dynasty of Jukun origin later on.

Thanks for the reference. That article is new to me, but as you say, the arguments it presents have been around a while. I also didn't mean to imply that the theories of Nri hegemony etc originate on the internet. As the author points out, Onwuejiogwu and Adiele Afigbo were publishing similar stuff in the '70s. I just meant that the Internet amplifies these fantastic claims and ideas that aren't rooted in anything other than suggestions by the original sources. Thurston Shaw hypothesizes a link to a nearby kingdom, and in thirty-five years, that's turned into unlikely claims of ancient empires and pedigrees. That stuff has to do with modern political considerations (measuring up or surpassing peer ethnic groups) and very little to do with the facts.

It may not have been proven outright yet, but the idea that there's a strong connection isn't due merely to internet speculators and I don't see how it's really all that inconclusive. Now internet speculators may take Thurstan Shaw's theory of the Nri - Igbo-Ukwu link and present it as a given fact, but is there any better explanation for the origin of the art?

If you don't think the Igbo-Ukwu art should be attributed to Nri, then what Igbo kingdom do you think it is attributable to? And what do you make of the mention of the belief that the Eze Nri had control over locusts (and could cause swarms of locusts to ruin the crops of someone who got on his bad side) in some early colonial era publications and the bronze figure of a locust that was found among the Igbo-Ukwu art? Is that a coincidence? And don't you think that the use of bronze items during coronation ceremonies by the Eze Nri as documented in the early 1930s (before the discovery of the art) also makes Nri the best candidate for the makers of the art?

I'd prefer to be careful about speculating on the origins of Igbo-Ukwu bronzeworks since I'm not especially well-informed on the topic and I hate when people present their guesses and hypotheses as fact. The Nri dynasty could well be linked to the Igbo-Ukwu crafters. It makes sense to look for origins in related areas. My issue is that the Nri system (as it exists, anyway) is most likely an offshoot of Igala traditions of royalty as we've established, so deriving Igbo-Ukwu from that lineage suggests an ultimately Igala provenance for the work. Since Igbo-Ukwu's dating is far older than anything we have (again, currently) for the Igala region, and there's also differences in stylistic emphasis and symbolism, I don't think the idea make sense.

Igbo-Ukwu depicts specifically Igbo artefacts and cultural norms so there's no reason to believe it's derived from an outside tradition (unlike the current Nri bronze regalia, which shares symbols and similarities with Igala). Your point about the link with locusts is also interesting, but I'd say it's pretty inconclusive too. If locusts were a particularly virulent pest in the area, it's likely they'd be reflected in the mythology and symbolic art of all traditions whether related or not. As an example: are all depictions of leopards related to some ultimate common source or do they reflect long-standing observations and cultural beliefs about the prowess and killing ability of leopards in similar ecological zones (Dahomey/Benin/Sierra Leone and the Poro society/Eso warriors in Oyo/Hausa boxers and the 'damisa' tradition etc)? The second possibility seems more likely to me.

In my view, Shaw suggested Nri because of its proximity and didn't delve that much deeper into it because his focus was on excavation, cataloging and preservation of the artwork. Historians and cultural anthropologists were supposed to elaborate on the provenance and timeline. In the time since his book came out, those historians/anthropologists with political agendas have virtually sealed the Nri hypothesis as fact and other, possibly more useful, inquiries have withered. I think critical readers should take those recent conclusions with a grain of salt and make sure they're considering other factors if they're looking for a straight answer.

The author of the paper you recommended suggests autochthonous subgroups in the Nri area (umudiana) might be responsible for the art as opposed to the current Nri dynasty. That seems logical and it's new to me. I wasn't aware of those different groups so that's a helpful direction in which to look. Perhaps the Nri Igala/umudiana dichotomy is an issue of dynasty change and there is a longer timeline to be explored there.

From my layman's view though, I'd think that Awka/Oka metalsmithing traditions are the logical place to look deeper for the roots of bronze smithing. He refers to Awka briefly in that paper, but their mythic role as the heaven-sent ironsmith that created dry land (markedly similar to beliefs about Ogun in the Yoruba-Edo-Fon area, too) may point to some more remote truths about the origins and emerging ethnic identity of the Igbo-Ukwu founders. The age and skill of Awka metalworking traditions acknowledged in surrounding traditions gives even more weight to the possibility. When you consider that other (currently)non-Igbo groups like the Ijo and Edo recognize Awka smiths in some of their earliest traditions like the Ozidi saga, it's quite likely that historians/archaeologists etc have overlooked a fruitful area of research. Nancy Neaher's old articles about Awka smiths and their traveling services has already suggested some of these ideas. It's all guesswork and speculation on my part, though; I'm just less inclined to believe the "specifically Nri" claim due to some fairly obvious evidence about its more recent Igala origins.

That's way more than I meant to write!

ShyM-X:
^^^^Nri Priest, I see you've stopped stalking the Yoruba's - it's now back to stalking the Ijebu's, no?

These guys are looking for your attention. There's a whole thread full of fantasies and hyperbole about their group but they don't seem to have any interest in that. You're better off reading and then writing about (verifiable) Ijebu history and culture if you're that passionate about it.

An excellent thread, Naptu2. The first page alone is pretty great but it kept getting better. You've got a firm grasp on the history of Lagos all the way from the founding to recent times.

I remember this. It was a creative project even though the animation was slightly amateurish. I hope Grafikdon went on to bigger and better things.

ekt_bear: Indeed. This is my sense too about where the book is leading...

Tyrion is my dude. He was my favorite character in the books, and the guy who plays him does an even better job.

This is one thing I love about GoT. Oftentimes when you see a movie version of a book, it falls short in some way. But the TV show accentuates the book...basically like getting to see something beautiful from a different angle.

Oh, minus that whole Bran storyline, which bores the hell out of me

Can someone please just kill this nigga off?

I think Daenerys Targaryen's kind of predictable too. You could see the greed of the slave dealer ending in a flamebath from the first episode. I understand that they want to portray her as intelligent and scheming but I've always had difficulty believing in her transformation from brother's sidekick/slave to Dothraki queen to new head of an invincible slave/free army. Arya Stark has a more believable character arc to me.

Jon Snow's half-Wildling so I wouldn't be surprised if he pulls off some sort of alliance between the free folk and the Seven Kingdoms beyond the wall. I haven't read the books; maybe this storyline has already been settled there.

I don't know what's wrong with Nigerians. Ijebus have a lot to be proud of but most of this list is either wrong, completely made-up or unverifiable (what does "origins from bible days" mean?)

Why start a discussion of Ijebu history but not mention Sungbo's Eredo, the largest single fortification on the African continent and one of the earliest sites of political centralization?

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/20/world/eredo-journal-a-wall-a-moat-behold-a-lost-yoruba-kingdom.html

Physics--Christopher Ehret's expertise in central African historical linguistics is pretty unparalleled, but he's also reached some controversial conclusions that are rejected by his peers and even "seniors" like Jan Vansina. Ehret, like John Thornton, is also a West-Central African specialist and I find their conclusions on West Africa and the Gulf of Guinea area generally flawed. I think we've talked about the old Alan Ryder article on Benin before (not sure if that was on this site?) but Thornton's article along the same lines was definitely flawed by his interpretations of directions mentioned in the early sources. I'd agree that this map and Ehret's conclusions are both off the mark.

By the way it is untrue that "the kings of the Igala claimed descent from the Nri of Igbo-Ukwu" as Ehret suggests. There is not a single precolonial or early colonial document or even post colonial document which supports this idea that they actually claimed descent from Nri, even if there might be some post colonial documents or articles from non-Igalas that attempt to make it seem like they actually did claim that descent or which state that they have that descent. In fact, anyone who has read the earliest documents about the Nri and Igala connection will come across numerous publications suggesting or stating outright that the founders of Nri were originally Igala settlers. This does not mean that that is necessarily true (that they were Igala settlers), but it is something which Ehret should have at least mentioned if he was going to talk about the connection. That's another error on his part.

This is one of those Internet rumors I read all the time that remind you of the dangers of not correcting wrong information. There's no reason to believe the Atta of Igala ever claimed descent from Nri (and certainly does not do so today, though that's beside the point) and I'm fairly sure the claim comes from linking Nri to Igbo-Ukwu, which is another inconclusive link presented as fact by ethnically-motivated speculators on the Internet.

On your second point about the extent of Benin's western frontier, I'd be careful about extracting exact imperial boundaries from those early reports. Olfert Dapper reports that Ijebu was tributary to Benin in the late 17th century too but there's no corroboration from the Ijebu side (perhaps not surprisingly). Similarly, Oyo claims it conquered Ijebu around that same period and exacted tribute, but that's not matched by any outside information either. My point is simply that empires and emperors (like most Nigerians) are prone to exaggeration. That's not to discount the claim, since Benin's role on Lagos Island is part of the historical record, but just a suggestion of skepticism.

http://www.caribbeanlifenews.com/stories/2013/4/2013_04_15_farrington_orisha.html

April 15, 2013 / Arts & Entertainment / People / Trinidad and Tobago / Music
CALLING THE YORUBA DEITIES
By William Farrington

Orisha master Earl Noel and student drummers before a recent performance. Earl passes along the musical traditions as a teacher in Brooklyn schools and in Natural Expressions his carnival drum group.

A rare opportunity presents itself this week as Orisha drummers play Manhattan’s Elebash Hall. Outside of Trinidad, Orisha is generally experienced in late-night gatherings in Flatbush churches celebrating feasts, occasions which can last several nights. Earl Noel, a master of this sacred ceremonial tradition, will lead a trio of drummers and an ensemble of dancers in an Orisha religious service. Three drums, the Bo, Bembe, and Umele are at the center of the ceremony. The drummers call to each Deity in turn with a particular rhythm known by that Deity’s name.

In a sense, Earl says, it’s a conversation with that spirit or ancestor -- the rhythms from the three drums calling the Yoruba deities; a tradition handed down orally from generation to generation that he continues as a drummer and teacher in Brooklyn.

[b]A typical Orisha religious service includes Spiritual Baptist hymns, plaintive prayers, lively songs for all the spirits, and closes with a somber song of thanks. All of the songs are sung in Yoruba, except for the opening hymns sung in English, says producer Ryan Bazinet

A musician, Ryan fell in love with the fast-paced, energetic music, where everyone is singing and clapping. “It is the best feeling and musical experience i have ever had.” The Orisha religion shares roots, Yoruba lyrics and even identical songs with the Cuban music,” he says. “Many people who have heard of Santeria did not know Yoruba-derived music and religion exist in Trinidad. I am thrilled to be a part of sharing this with a wider audience.”

Earl plays a vital role in the Orisha social scene in Brooklyn, which is coming into season. As the weather gets warmer, feasts return, centered at Mt Moriah Baptist and other churches in Flatbush.

Earl began drumming at four years old in Belmont, Port of Spain. “A place called Gonzalez,” he says. The youngest of 13 children, he was born into Orisha music, first picked up drumming from his older siblings and from his neighbor, Mother Burness, the keeper of the Orisha feasts there. He now spends time teaching drumming -- folkloric and Orisha, to youths here in Brooklyn. Natural Expressions, another group he is involved in performs during carnival season and includes drummers of all ages.

While Orisha music remains largely confined to tight-knit communities both here and in Trinidad, its influences can be heard in the popular music of David Rudder and in the spiritual folk music of songs like, “Bring Down the Power” by Ella Andall.

Historian and radio host Trevor Wilkins says “Shango (Orisha) played a serious role in Trinidad and Tobago music in the ‘30’s and ‘40’s, calypso grew out of shango and spiritual baptist music. The pracitice itself was banned under colonial rule, and as an underground practice only became legal with independence.” Chalkdust, Sparrow, Houdini and others made calypsos based on Shango.[/b]

The concert is Wednesday, April 24 at Elebash Hall, located at 365 5th Avenue, at 34th Street in Manhattan, at the City University Graduate Center. Tickets are $12; $10 for students and can be purchased online by visiting www.liveat365.org.

The Trevor Wilkins Show on Friday and Saturday evenings on WNYE (91.5 FM) will present a full evening of Spiritual Baptist music May 24th and a full evening of Orisha music on May 25th.

I'm fairly sure I've written about this interesting issue before on here so I don't want to repeat myself. Suffice to say that Oduduwa is almost certainly a mythological figure--sometimes regarded as male in the most recent references, but very often considered a female Goddess in the older 19th century literature. Claims to knowing the "true" story of Oduduwa in the royal lineages of modern Ife, Benin etc are coloured by modern political agendas and considerations about hierarchy, ethnic prestige and promotion, since they ignore much of the evidence in historical literature and base their claims on family myths or partially discredited local histories. These issues are similar to the roots of Hausa speculation about origins in Mecca or Igbo speculations about origins in Israel--examples of ethnic/religious prestige-seeking, since their verified West African histories are not well-known or taught to the masses.

Also--"ara" is the Yoruba word for thunder and is totally distinct from "ara", the word for "body"/"family"/"assembly" etc. 'Ora' is a dialectical variation, as suggested earlier. 'Aramfe' should probably be interpreted as 'Ara Ni Ife'--'Ara in/of Ife', a precursor to Sango as a deity of thunder. Sango was introduced from Oyo with well-known Nupe roots there.

Rev. Ajayi Crowther's 'A Vocabulary of the Yoruba Language' is useful reference material on these things for anyone interested.

It's incredible to see culturally valuable material like this on Nairaland. I enjoy Hausa architecture and I haven't seen some of these photos of the Kano walls before. Gorgeous stuff.

The Dahomean weapons are called 'recades' or mankpo in Fongbe and they're stylized versions of throwing sticks, which the Dahomean hunters and soldiers were famous for using with accuracy. Again, I see a few examples I've never come across before.

Cameroonpride--the French did practice deportation, but generally to their plantation colonies. The Dahomean king mentioned here several times (Behanzin) was deported to Martinique after capture. I believe a few other figures were taken to Madagascar as well. I don't think the Cameroonian Fon (which is a royal title in Bamun?) is related to this group. The Fon speak one of the Gbe languages and don't have any known connection to Cameroon, as far as I know. These coincidences come up in African languages fairly often which is why we have to be careful about leaping to conclusions. There's a fairly old and well-established Ekiti-Yoruba community called Efon-Alaaye, for instance, but there's nothing linking them to the Dahomean Fon either.

I love the Dahomean bas-reliefs as historic documents. Some of them depict Agbome's wars with Ketu and the other Anago-Yoruba kingdoms in the area, which you can tell from the facial markings on the combatants.

PhysicsQED: After reading Seun's advice to another poster on this thread, I decided to watch the show rather than read the rest of the books in the series before watching the show. I'm almost done with season 1 and I have to say that so far it's a very good show.

But one thing that I can't help wondering is whether or not Africans will someday be able to make an African equivalent of GOT or a product which surpasses GOT. The backdrop for a Game of Thrones type of story with an African basis would basically be a semi-historical fantasy world based on African feudal and non-feudal history and on the mythologies and cultures of various African groups. The actual historical, cultural and mythological basis for such a story is definitely there, but the fictional work based on such material and information seems to be lacking or completely absent.

I don't think that anyone with a decent/good/great artistic talent or literary ability and a good knowledge of precolonial African history has attempted anything like what I'm talking about. All of the "high level" (i.e., not amateurish) historical fiction I've come across from African writers has been only "culture clash" (clashes between Western/white culture and African/black culture, following colonization) art or post-colonial historical fiction, which are both necessarily limited in scope and overall effect and can't really evoke the adventurous, politically complex, heroic, mystical, or magical world of the kings, queens, warriors, etc. of Africa's past.

And not only is the source material (the written fictional work) for such a show or movie lacking or absent in African fictional writing, I don't think there's currently an African television or movie production company that could bring any written fictional work to television or the big screen and do it justice in terms of quality (acting, directing, costumes, set design, etc.). Maybe someday when the continent is more developed, an African media/entertainment company with a lot of money will arise and Africans will be able to create a movie or television show that is based on or influenced by precolonial African history and which has high production values, skilled directors, and very talented actors, actresses and writers. But for now I think the money isn't there.

The Chinese have already had Romance of the Three Kingdoms for hundreds of years, and Europeans have had J.R.R. Tolkien (and now George R.R. Martin) and numerous other writers in the 20th century, but I don't think Africans have even one fictional or semi-fictional epic saga (not to talk of a TV or movie adaption of that saga) based purely on the precolonial states of Africa that is really a high level work (not amateurish) and is creative, thoughtful and entertaining.

There's at least one person I know working on an African series inspired in part by George MacDonald Fraser's "Flashman" series, (which in turn were partially inspired by Richard Burton's colonial-era travelogues). The difficulty with producing something on the scale and quality of "Game of Thrones" for TV is justifying the cost when looking at the potential audience, but that's not an insurmountable issue. I think these Nollywood movies demonstrate that there is a market--probably small but definitely real nontheless--for African historical fantasy (and science fiction etc as well). I've seen both English and Yoruba-language "epic" movies that use precolonial settings and even existing sagas as inspiration and their popularity is on par with the romance, comedy and religious-horror stuff that's the mainstay of Nollywood. Nigerians are quick to dismiss them because the production values and writing talents aren't as good as their Western counterparts, but what's important is that there's an existing and interested audience for the genre. It's also one of the few ways to make Nigerian history and culture interesting and relevant for a younger audience, in my opinion.

Andre Uweh: What a silly post above. It's as if they are doing better than those groups that envelope them.

Andre, you will look for my attention until you tire. I don't have time to trade insults with you or anyone else whose self-esteem may be hurt by a simple discussion. What does "doing better than those groups that envelope them" have to do with anything? Who made that comparison. This thread is simply about Yorubas in Anioma. That's what the Olukumi people are. Whatever (paranoid?) scenario you want to extrapolate from that is your business.

http://beegeagle./2010/05/01/indigenous-yoruba-and-igala-of-delta-northaniomaland/

The Olukumi speak a Yoruba language and have been quite clear about their beliefs on their ethnic origins. Perhaps they would be flattered that other groups are desperate to be associated with them but they quite clearly consider themselves of the same ancestry as other Yoruba speakers.

Fantastic thread as always, Physics.

vivalableue: OK as a Jamaican I have to say that I have a distinct connection with my Yoruba friends more than anything. My step-father is Trini, so I've been immersed in that culture as well since I was 6 years old. And once again the Yoruba culture holds the most in common in my personal opinion. I may not be right, but its my opinion. I find that patois, and pidgin very similar. The way we raise our kids, family structure and even affinity for anything yam to be some of the many similarities. As for our annual carnivals, and some animism I would need to do more research on that one.

I'm also half Indian and find that there are also similarities (although less so) to our family structures in the way we greet our parents, and call our elders and so on. My bf was a little surprised when I touched my naniji's feet to greet her and serve my paternal grandparents first etc. But then again, the concept of manners, real manners is a universal human trait.

That's an interesting perspective. This forum is packed with ignorant ethnocentrists who will spend their lives working to discredit your intuition and the viewpoints of many others who feel like you, but they'll continue to fail in frustration with contributions like yours.

For readers who are genuinely interested in the issue of Yoruba cultural continuation in the African diaspora, there are a number of insightful studies on this issue by genuine scholars. It's clear to most unbiased observers that Yoruba culture receives a disproportionate amount of attention. There are lots of reasons for this and some of them have been suggested already. I'll focus on two impressive recent studies on Yoruba history and ethnography in Brazil: [[url="http://www.ethnomusic.ucla.edu/pre/Vol14/Vol14html/V14Iyanaga.html"]Black Atlantic Religion[/url] by Professor J. Lorand Matory and [url="http://books.google.com/books?id=ohXKZdrZlEMC&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=joao+reis+slave+rebellion+in+brazil&source=bl&ots=NZM8yItbob&sig=gHf4hheaRm8qo7L-jCu3XeSK5Ig&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BFJsUbraFenV0QGq2IHQCA&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=joao%20reis%20slave%20rebellion%20in%20brazil&f=false"]Slave Rebellion in Brazil[/url], about the 1835 Bahian Yoruba Muslim rebellion, which was the largest rebellion against slavery in Brazilian history as mentioned by Shymexx above.

"Black Atlantic Religion" is particularly relevant to this discussion since Dr. Matory offers his theory for the prominence of Yoruba religion and culture in Brazil (and Cuba, to a lesser extent). It's not simply because of their comparatively late arrival, although that was a factor. As Matory mentioned in his book, other scholars have noteiced the opposite effect--a disproportionately high level of influence on diasporan cultures by earlier arrivals as "founding cultures" (he cites anthropologists Sidney Mintz and Richard Price on this point), so I don't think that's a good enough explanation.

Matory argues that a Yoruba cultural renaissance was created in the 19th century by the interaction between self-liberated or emancipated Yorubas from the diaspora and a growing class of educated Yorubas in Lagos. Having returned to West Africa from countries in which their culture and religious practices were denigrated, the diasporan Yoruba wanted to create a prestige around their heritage that emphasized their cultural uniqueness. The indigenous Lagosians were similarly inspired by anti-colonial stances and wanted to present themselves as cultural equals to the British. Both parties gained considerable wealth by being multilingual language teachers and interpreters, skilled (particularly in architecture and construction), and by running cross-Atlantic businesses in goods like palm oil, kola nuts, cloth and other products of West Africa.

While they were a relatively small group, their tenacity, literacy and sense of cultural pride left a long-standing impression in Brazil, Cuba, Sierra Leone and of course Lagos through this "Lagosian Renaissance". They laid the foundation for the independence movements of the 20th century as well. Here's an excerpt from Matory's writing:

Since the nineteenth century, one such Afro-Latin nation has risen above all the rest—preeminent in size, wealth, grandeur, and international prestige. It is studied, written about, and imitated far more than any other, not only by believers but by anthropologists, art historians, novelists, and literary critics. The origin and homeland of this trans-Atlantic nation is usually identified as Yorùbáland, which is now divided between southwestern Nigeria and the People’s Republic of Benin on the Gulf of Benin.
8
Though the equivalence among, for example, the Cuban Lucumí, the Brazilian Nago, the Haitian Nagô, the French West African Nagot, and the British West African Yorùbá was not fully evident in their names, late-nineteenth- and early-twentieth-century ethnographers clearly assumed that unity in a way that I will argue was consistent with
the interests of a powerful class of black “ethnicity entrepreneurs” (see, for example, Ortiz 1973[1906]:28; 32– 33; Rodrigues 1945[1905]:175, 1935[1896]:24; Ellis 1970[1890]:29 – 30)

.

This excellent article "The English Professors of Brazil", summarizes the history of these Yoruba entrepreneurial academics and clerics and is available in full here:
http://www.fflch.usp.br/sociologia/asag/The%20English%20Professors%20of%20Brazil.pdf

The Male rebellion was also instrumental, since Brazil deported hundreds (possibly thousands) of Yoruba and other West African Muslims (mainly Hausa and Nupe) following the incident, rather than risk a repeat. These returnees were also active in promoting intra-African and cross-Atlantic cultural links. Some of them ended up in Ghana, where their descendants are still known as "Taboms" (after the Portuguese greeting, "esta bon": http://www.modernghana.com/news/332640/1/a-slice-of-brazil-in-accra.html

I hope this is helpful, although I'm sure some pathological contributors here will argue on.

^^ That makes sense to me. I was pointing out how even neighboring groups can have words that sound alike in the same context (religion) and not have any links to each other. I don't know enough about Bori to make any claims.

Great thread/photos here.

jantavanta: Correction accepted. It is interesting to know that.

Mali, Songhai and the Hausa States were Great before Islamic Invasion. I believe that Bayajidda was authentically from Daura
and not from Persia. The Persian origin of Bayajidda and the Arabian origin ascribed to Oduduwa are colonialism trying to
enforce the Indo-European origin myth of the human race.

Islam was accepted, at first nominally by the Rulers to get through the blockade around the seas of Africa
that the White Arabs had created, which was stifling international commerce for the Mali, Songhai and Hausa States.

The Bori Spirit possession is similar to Vodou (pejoratively changed by Hollywood to Voodoo). These are core elements
of the African Mystery System that have gone out Africa, repackaged and come back as "holy spirit possession".

Agreed. The word "bori" has some superficial similiarities with "ori" and "orisha" in Yoruba language. I'm not aware of any links between the practices, but it would be worthwhile for someone to try and study both. Hopefully, the armchair scholars at Nairaland won't come in to derail your thread. There's an interesting comparison between Bori, a Yoruba religious tradition from Kabba called "Aruta", Haitian Vodun and other world religions in this paper:
http://www.uni-leipzig.de/~eniugh/congress2011/fileadmin/eniugh2011/dokumente/Cultural_Reconnection_in_Africa_and_Pacific_Asia.pdf

Interesting! Great to see Nigerians talking about Dambe

TerraCotta: Nay_Low is right--there was no common name for all Yorubas before the 19th century. As with most major ethnic groups in Nigeria, they would have considered themselves as belonging to a city-state or what we think of as sub-ethnicities today--Oyos, Ifes, Egbas, Ijebus and so on. There was no need to have a larger group name, since they were politically independent areas with their own identities. The term Yoruba originally referred only to the people of Oyo, but literate Yorubas (mostly returnees from Sierra Leone who were of Oyo ancestry) like Rev. Samuel Johnson started to use the term to refer to all the people who could understand each other's dialects. In Sierra Leone, they called themselves 'Aku' because the greeting 'Eku ishe" was common to all Yoruba-speakers, so it was a way to identify themselves as ethnically-related amongst all the other groups. Yorubas began to feel a need to identify themselves as a single ethnic nationality because of the 19th century wars against the Fulani, which forced many people into slavery or to take refuge with neighboring groups. After many of these enslaved people were able to make their way back to Nigeria, they wanted to promote the same type of group unity at home that they had abroad. Educated Yorubas like Bishop Ajayi Crowther and Rev. Samuel Johnson consulted with Hausa historians, who were literate in Arabic and had books by Muslim scholars like Ahmed Baba that mentioned Oyo/Yorubas etc. They popularized the word as a description of the whole group in books like "History of the Yorubas".

There has been speculation that the term Yoruba is originally Hausa, as you said. It's likely that it's a version of the name for a northern Yoruba-speaking groups (Yagba or Oyo) that was adopted by the Hausa, just as the term Nago/Nagot in French-speaking West Africa/Brazil/Haiti is used for all Yorubas and adapted for the group name from one Yoruba-speaking group, the Anago. These Anagos were (and still are) from modern-day Benin Republic, and they were among the first Yoruba-speaking people in Brazil, so their ethnic name was used to refer to all people that spoke the same language. However, people still specified where exactly they were from by adding their sub-group name; an Ijebu would call him or herself Nago-Jebu, while one from Ketu would be Nago-Ketu etc.

To give a parallel from another part of the world, Italians considered themselves as citizens of independent city-states--Venetians, Milanese, Romans and so on--until the 1800s, even though they acknowledged their cultural and linguistic ties. Groups of young Italians in the early 19th century started promoting Italian unification to get the country out of the grip of Austrians, Napoleonic France, and other larger nations that had come into their territory, which is how the modern country of Italy was born in the late 1800s after a series of wars. The same thing can be said for countries like Germany and Greece that were formerly independent provinces, cities etc. and went through the same process of unification and developing a group name in the 19th century.

I'd forgotten about this but it's an important point. There's an often-repeated claim that Sultan Bello or the Hausa "gave" the Yoruba their current ethnonym. If that were true, there should be some obvious Hausa inspiration or meaning for the term. There is none, as far as I'm aware. It's plain to see that some of the northern-most Yoruba-speaking people and their neighbors refer to themselves with names that are related to Yoruba though; Yagba is the most obvious, but Oyo is another (Yauri in northwest Nigeria may also represent a related group, since they were not originally Hausa-speakers). It's much more likely that the Hausa adapted this ethnic name for all the people who spoke that language, much like the Fon and later the French expanded the term "Anago" from a small group in the current Republic of Benin to all Yoruba speakers.

Dudu_Negro: Terra Cotta,

How can you know what is factual and what is falsehood when you have refused to open yourself to the totality of Yoruba history and origin or the decoding of the meanings behind the words and letters outside of what you were taught in classroom?

Here's the difference between our points of view--I don't know what is factual and what is falsehood. I'm fairly confident that I've spent more time "opening myself to the totality of Yoruba history and origin" than the average person and certainly more so than the average scholar. There's no point bragging about experiences or qualifications on the Internet since we're all faceless, but I'd be happy to discuss the orisa, Irunmole, orun, Ifa etc in personal and scholarly detail if time permits.

Linguistic is not language but rather it is the study of the evolution of language. The root methodology of analysing a tongue was made possible so humanity can benefit from the study and it is left open for further development and creativity. When dumbos like you say the use of a methodology should be exclusive to only the practitioners in the field it says a lot about your understanding of why you even went to school to begin with.

I can't repay your insults with the same type of language because it's precisely the reason why I don't participate in this forum anymore. There are enough things to do in the day besides trading insults with people I'll never meet. Suffice to say, your assumptions are wrong, I'm not a professional linguist and I've never claimed to be. I have a background in anthropology that includes linguistics but that's not my job and it's not my speciality. I just happen to respect people who spend the time to produce peer-reviewed research.

Academic work is for progress and not for ego attachment. My use of the root methodolojgy is beneficial because many people can read this thread and undrstand what they did not understand before .

I'm sorry to say that your use of these methods is not beneficial if you rely on them to justify your religious interpretations. You have a vested interest in finding a link between Arabic and Yoruba because you come from a Muslim background (I believe; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). My interest in Yoruba culture is specific and focuses on Yoruba people; it doesn't rely on a similarity to other prestigious groups elsewhere or a particular religious faith. Anyone who is not a Muslim should take your conclusions with a grain of salt. That's where my interest in commenting on this topic ends. You may very well turn out to be a linguistic idiot savant who finds connections that all the other Yoruba-speaking linguists, Semitic scholars etc. have missed. If so, I'll wish you well and remember this discussion. Until then, however, your ideas shouldn't be regarded as facts or scholarship but as religious dogma and faith-based arguments.

Your linguistic profession and academic laurel is useless to the people in NL if you are not teachibg us what you know and improving our awareness.

It's far from useless if I spend time correcting wrong information. I registered on Nairaland seven years ago, I think; the experience was mostly a disappointment so I don't come back very often. Anyone who's interested in Yoruba culture or its West African relatives can learn more truth from Google in 10 minutes than from this forum. There's a great introduction to Yoruba art here, for anyone interested:
http://www.kean.edu/~gallery/docs/Yoruba%20Art%20Catalogue.pdf

So I challenge you to serve this community by bringing us your own independent knowledge on the area of language and culture.

Thanks for the challenge. I'll contribute when I have the time and inclination. What I definitely try to do is correct misinformation on here, which is worse than ignorance in my book. The Yoruba have produced world-class cultural achievements; I don't see any reason to think their culture was reliant on contacts with the Middle East anymore than I would think that Ife was inspired by the Mayans. Ile-Ife produced unique art, religion, cuisine etc--its closest neighbors in modern-day West Africa would be the logical place to look for relatives, if that's your interest. If you have a strong preference for searching for connections with Islam, Japan, Greece, Scandinavia or other far-flung locales, you should be honest enough to ask yourself why that is. It reminds me of people from one of our neighboring ethnic groups who have nothing good to say about Yoruba culture, yet spend all their time commenting on Yoruba-related discussions here. These are both signs of an inferiority complex and insufficient interest in understanding our common West African heritage, in my opinion.

Ife, its descendants and their many cousins in West Africa are fascinating enough for me on their own terms. If they turn out to be related to Mesopotamia, the Indus Valley and the Inca temple builders after future rigorous research, I'd be glad to read that. Until that time, I'm happy to focus on the reliable conclusion of scholars who don't have an agenda.

Dudu_Negro: Thank you for your view but the OP adamantly and stubbornly stands by his claim. This is an effort to decode the mysteries and bring to light what professional linguists and people like yourself have failed to do using your professional and academic tools and knowledge which is ever promoted as superior but in actuality is sub-perior.

No problem. Professional linguists and people like me cant have failed at anything if people like you imitate their methods and incorrectly interprete their conclusions. As I've said, you're free to believe anything you'd like about Hebrew origins and Arabic mysticisms. I've got no interest in debating that stuff with you. As long as people don't believe that your ideas and conclusions have anything to do with scholarship, professional linguists and people like me, we're good.

Katsumoto: On Nigerian history, you take your ar.se whopping regularly, why do you want to make it worse by attempting Yoruba history?

The British never engaged Oyo or Ibadan. In fact, After the Ijaiye war in 1862, Ogunmola (the Balogun) took a British slave (Edward Roper) and demanded 200 kegs of gun powder as ransom. Despite British attempts to negotiate his release, it would take the British pleading to the Alaafin Adelu, who in turn pleaded with Ogunmola before Roper was released.

The British only engaged Yoruba forces on a couple of occasions and on both occasions, the objective wasn't to subdue but to relieve. Since you believe you know the history, can you tell us where these battles were held. Despite the fact that the British were in lagas for decades, they never moved beyond Ikorodu or Epe into Ogun. They would only move into the hinterland after the treaties of 1893 were signed ending the Yoruba civil war.

Second, You stated that the British whooped the Alaafin; can you tell us where and when?

I admire your patience in educating the ignorant. For anyone who's truly interested, a copy of one treaty is reproduced by [url=http://books.google.com/books?id=ECFKAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA190&lpg=PA190&dq=British+yoruba+treaty&source=bl&ots=Uefzg059AN&sig=Ynz3r_PfT23HOonkMdt0DJoMqE4&hl=en#v=onepage&q=British%20yoruba%20treaty&f=false]Bishop Ajayi Crowther[/url] here:

Even more interesting is the one guaranteeing independence for Abeokuta, which remained in force until the 1914 amalgamation. It is unique in Nigerian history, as far as I'm aware.

These discussions are fine for speculation but there should be a separation between guesswork and linguistic scholarship. The OP wantd to use established linguistic methodology--root-word analysis, glottochronological relationships etc--but dismisses (or is unfamiliar with) all the conclusions of professional linguistics. There is lots of "disputing the fact that Yoruba is Afro-Asiatic"--the people that specialize in both Yoruba and Afro-Asiatic languages, including those that came up witth the Afro-Asiatic descriptor, do not recognize this relationship.

Facts (as far as they are known now): Yoruba is the largest member of waht used to be called the Defoid (Defoid meaning Ede Ife) branch of the west Benue-Congo languages. It has no known relationship with Afro-Asiatic/Afrasian, and this type of speculation has more to do with religious beliefs than scholarship. There are some historians, like Dierk Lange, who believe that Yoruba and Hausa share roots with Assyrian culture and Canaanite languages but they are far in the minority and aren't taken seriously by most of their fellow scholars.

The poster above who compares Hawaiian languages to Yoruba demonstrates the danger of haphazard comparisons. Okunrin and Okari are unlikely to share roots when there are no geographic or cultural commonalities to explain that connection. On the other hand, okunrin quite likely shares roots with "okoro" in Igbo, okorho in Edo and Urhobo, "Oko" again in Yoruba, all meaning young man, prince, or husband, and all likely derived from a term in the ancestral language.

I edited to add an example: The word "ubi" in Latin means "where". In standard Yoruba, people would say "ibi" for the same purpose. In Eastern Yoruba dialects, they'd use the exact same word as Latin: "ubi". Does this mean that Latin and Yoruba have the same origins or belong to the same language family? Is Yoruba now a member of the Indo-European language group? It's unlikely. There's obviously a coincidental similarity but in the absence of other evidence of exchanges--conquest, contact, intermarriage, common roots--it's likely to just be a coincidence that Latin and Yoruba have similar words. Human beings are only capable of making so many sounds, after all. When the groups are in close proximity with a likely line of descent from a common ancestor, then it would make total sense to say that Yoruba "ibi"/"ubi" is probably related to similar words in other southern Nigerian languages. The only one I know off the top of my head is "ebe" in Igbo, but I'm betting anyone who speaks Igala, Nupe, Edo etc. would find a similar term in their language.

Not actively, but I check in occasionally. The discussion went the way I expected it would (with the exception of Anonymous and her consistent attempt to keep this on track!). This is the most embarrassing Nigerian site I've seen when it comes to bigotry, ignorance, double IDs etc. so I don't have any incentive to participate. Still looking forward to your contributions though.

Last one is the group of brass heads excavated at Wumonije compound in Ife. This photo was taken shortly after they were dug up and shows the varieties of faces and features depicted by the sculptors.

Negro_Ntns:
TC,

The broken head art from the book, did they say in what age that art was done? I tip my hat to the sculptor, the detail is too powerful I almost mistook it for the real thing!

I love those potsherds pavement. How elaborate were they and does anyone know if they were used on main boulevards or just in the King's palace?

They were part of the courtyards in palaces and other religious architecture. They were fairly elaborate; some of them included glass beads and other embellishments.

More:

This intricate, beautiful mask is supposed to be the terra cotta equivalent of the pure copper Obalufon mask, which is part of the traveling Ife exhibit. These would have been worn during coronations and possibly other religious occasions. The book points out the mouth covering represented by cross-hatching around the lips and under the nose.

Sorry about the delay.

anonymous6:
Thanks, please post more, your pictures are fine enough

My pleasure. You're doing a great job with the ones you've posted. Here are a couple of unusual images from the book Beads Body and Soul: Art and Light in the Yoruba Universe. The first is a surviving fragment from a larger piece. The rest has not been found, but the fragment has interesting details--the beads and brasswork around the feet and the design of the chair reflect some current parts of ceremony at Ife:

The last image is really interesting since there aren't a lot of images of the decorative terracotta tiling/potsherd pavements I've mentioned on the Internet. This is one of the most distinguishing features of Ife-related cultures. Check out the damaged head in the other image; there are sometimes dozens of fragments that have to be painstakingly reassembled by experts: