₦airaland Forum

mazaje:
Interesting. . . .Let me begin by saying that I am not dismissing their claims without completely reading it. But I will like to note that the authors published for JSE,(The journal is not indexed in Web of Science, an indexing service for leading scientific journals, and is not considered actual peer review) there are no real details in the "study" other than first names and vague village names from what i have read so far, and the bulk of "evidence" provided is by hearsay of "witnesses".

I like this it is important to note that according to the wikipedia page, The opinions of the organization(SSE) are usually at odds with those of mainstream science.. It seems to be some fringe group of scientists whose opinions differ from the pack. But nevertheless, Their explorations should not be discarded off hand.

tpiah:
so in the days before paper money, how did adherents get the cowries or whatever they needed to make them rich?

.

viaro:
@toneyb and mazaje,

I'm not going to tell stories, but please hear me out.

In particular reference to the thread topic (ie., on Psychokinesis), I woulod say that a subject of this sort is basically pointing to just one thing: are such things as psychokinesis 'real'? And is there any evidence from any study at all published in a recognized journal as evidence at all for psychokinesis?

It does not help us to keep arguing on and on about Randi - you have your praise for him, I have reasons why I'm not impressed by his theatricals. But as regards the question of psychokinesis, one would be asking in particularly (if you're like me) - "is there any evidence of sorts for psychokinesis?"

Perhaps it seems pertinent to state the obvious, that discussions on psychokinesis might as well have a bearing on such things regarded as 'paranormal', and this takes many forms. It is not just a stereotypical idea which some of us might hold, especially if we're inclined to pride ourselves as 'skeptics' on such things. Basically, some sources present the paranormal as involving events which are 'impossible to explain by known natural forces or by science' (Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary). I am not asking that anyone "must" adhere to only that definition - and readers are quite free to think differently.

Therefore, examining the phenomenon about paranormal and psychokinesis is not just a matter of whether "someone is claiming" to have a paranormal ability which they personally possess and are able to demonstrate at will. Beyond that, the question of whether the 'paranormal' exists at all should move us to want to examine cases where such things might have occured independently of anyone making any claims of possessing a paranormal ability. Are you agreed on this?

So what happens where certain events are reported (from rigorous studies, of course) that cannot be explained by known natural forces or by science? Perhaps we might agree that the weight of such studies is in the question of whether they are published in credible journals.

Let me leave you one example:
^^^
The investigators were:

   ~   Ian Stevenson, Department of Behavioral  Medicine  and Psychiatry,
        University  of Virginia, Charlottesville:  VA 22908.

   ~   Satwant Pasricha, Department of Clinical Psychology,
        National Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences
        (NIMHANS),  Bangalore,  India.

  ~   Nicholas McClean-Rice, Department of Behavioral Medicine
       and Psychiatry, Universily of Virginia, Charlottesville,  VA 22908.


Please just objectively go through that published study - and then think of your own reasons for any conclusions you may draw as to whether such a phenomenon is possible or not possible. Also note here that the subjects involved in that study do not claim to have 'abilities' which they could demonstrate at will.

In proffering the case study above, I have this from mazaje in mind:
Further, I am not asking anyone to 'replicate' anything, since here we are only seeking to establish any inferences about 'veracity'. Cheers.

Good to see that the topic is no longer about Randi and your obscured new agers . I will read parts of the paper(its too long) and will give my thoughts and reflections when am done. It might be today or tommorow but will definately get back and drop my thoughts when I feel I am informed enough on the matter to make comments.

viaro:
Toneyb, please show me where I have ever claimed that those in particular who challenge Randi are themelves claiming to possess supernatural abilities.

Ohh, Randi's challenge was to to anyone who can demonstrate evidence of any paranormal, supernatural or occult power or event, under test conditions agreed to by both parties, not some obscured new agers that are busy crying from a distance and also desperately looking for a plat form to gain popularity and cheap fame. Randi does not need to respond to new agers and their bogus claims, he has already put forth his challenge, Sending emissaries like you to come and cry on their behalf and try to sell their already failed product will not fly. No wonder you were qucik to direct us to go read some bogus rants challenge on some obscured web site about some unknown people. That is a failed marketing startegy. If they have what it takes why not just and prove themselves once and for all. This devious marketing strategy will not work. Instead of looking for ways to gain recognition on their own they are sending you to come and cry on their behalf over some bogus challenge which will only serve as a plat form for them to gain cheap popularity.

Randi knows better than entertaining the responses of some obscured and nameless noise makers and their cronies who are only seeking cheap popularity and a medium to market their already failed products. You and your new agers so go look for a better way of selling your ware instead of shouting, chasing your long tails, biting them and crying at the same time. .

AIRDIG:
"You shall not let a sorceress live." (Exodus 22:18)

viaro:
You're a very funny fellow now - specially gifted at saying the ridiculous.
Did I argue that Randi's case was special? I said kindly "Randi being encased in a block of ice for 55 mins is not special" - and after coming forward to argue that guiness gives awards to SPECIAL people and special this and that, you still made my point? I can't laugh enough.

Stop patting your self on the back yet, I said Randi's case is a special one, that you are trying to make light his achievement does not mean it is not special it is. I then went on to say that the world record awards goes only to special people or special events. But that was not what mazaje was talking about, his emphasis was on one point and that is if Randi had ascribed his special(very few people can do what he did) abilities to the supernatural you will be all over the place licking his boots.

So, let me guess - Guiness awarded Randi an award for your argument that he was not special, yes? And how does that square with what I said that Randi's case was NOT SPECIAL?

How is Randi's case NOT special, How many people have been able to do what he did? Every body would have bagged that award if it wasn't special no?

You see toneyb, you've lost track of comprehension. I feel sorry for you - but please show me where I either said that mazaje was arguing for Randi's ice bolck case as "special", or kindly learn to shut up instead of desperately trying to read issues into my post that I never argued.

Please be quite Mr man. What part of my writing do you not understand?  . if Randi has ascribed his special abilities or magic tricks to the supernatural you will be on your knees crying and licking his boots no?

So the man who walked on hot coals MUST also stand/walk in boling water/oil ELSE his performance is "not real"? It is okay for you to excuse Randi's dubious case, but when it comes to facing the same kind of argument you pose for him, it becomes questionable, yes? Please.

Randi was asked for his opinion by a television station as mazaje rightly said after the event and he said that he would have taken the guy seriously if the guy stayed on the hot coal for half the time he used on walking on the coal or steeped on other hot substances. He just laid out the criteria on which he will take the guys abilities serious enough. He said that the guy has to stand on the coal or some other hot substance for him to take him seriously. The TV crew sent the message to the guy and the guy started ranting and swearing. Randi did not formally tell the guy, he just gave his thoughts to a television station and went on to say that the guys abilities can be replicated by some body that knows the trick. I don't even accept that walking on hot coal has anything supernatural about it.

You can do so IF that is what you are claiming - I did not claim any such on your behalf. Randi will be glad to ask you to do more than splitting the moon and the sun perhaps . . . just so he can be sure your claim was "real". Enjoy your excuses and provide us with more comedy.

Are you now singing a different song? Will you tell the people you are crying on their behalf to hurry up, take on Randi's challenge and discredit him already?

viaro:
They are not charlatans - that is why I posted links for your consideration. Does it surprise me that you guys will not take up those links and come forward to discuss anything? Nevermind, I'm open and willing to put up with Randi's dropout noise making

If they are not charlatans as you are so desperately trying to sell them without any success, why not tell them to man up, cite their supernatural abilities go meet Randi and shut him up with their abilities. What is hard there? Posting links to some obscured new age site will not help your campaign here.

Randi has no US$1 million to give anybody - that is why he is asking people to do what they have not claimed to do

Where did Randi formally ask a person to do what they have not claimed to do? One example will do.

viaro:
There are people who do not claim to have any special abilities but have survived unusual circumstances. A two year old, Oluchi Nwaubani, survived after spending about 18 minutes (three times longer than the brain can usually survive) at the bottom of a pool in Bromley, London. Doctors say while the case is highly unusual, it is not unprecedented.

Randi being encased in a block of ice for 55 mins is not special. You're only deluding yourself to think, 'oh, hooray . .

The last time I checked guniess awards only go to special people, special events or special occurrences no? How many people do you know have been able to achieve this feat? What is even pathetic is that NOWHERE did mazaje say that Randi's display was something that no body else can do, he even alluded to a guy that survived in ice for an hour. The message he was putting across to you that if Randi ascribed his abilities to some super natural agent you will be on your knees crying, praising and licking his boots. .

All the same mazaje, please shut up. Give me where your super-Randi has walked on hot coals even for 15 secs. Stop making useless excuses on his behalf. I did not claim that the said case was supernatural, nor was I the person who talked about a man walking on hot coals. 30 secs, 50 secs, 15 secs - it's all breeze you're blowing if you can't go beyond excuses and show results of Randi replicating them. Standing in a block of ice is easy-peasy .[color=Black].[/color]. anyone can sit in cold temperature for long periods of time. You ask Randi to walk on hot coals and I will send you a check of my next month's pay. I just want results, not 3 pages of useless arguments for the sham that Randi has shown himself to be.

So Randi must walk on hot coal else that performance is a supernatural event? . I must be able to divide the moon into 2 else I must accept that the prophet of Islam once divided the moon into two.   . Your flawed reasoning truly deserves an award.

viaro:
I agree - he did a very "good job" and sounding quite ridiculous in the same way you tried to excuse sanity for Randi.

The same empty drivel again.

I am not saying anything than what I have already said and which others are already making sense of. Your own sophistry - that is quite golden, but I pass . . . hehe.

What exactly have you said that comes close to sense? . Since when did vacuous sophism equate to "making sense"?

I know the feeling . . after trying to dribble round and round until you became dizzy by your own yoyo.

Carry on with the flawed reasoning,

No - that is not why I call him a fraud and a cheat. I have tried to correct your misconception that it was not due to the story about walking on hot coals or because of whatever else you suppose that Randi is known as a cheat and a liar. I said plainly that such a point is predicated on other issues that attest to it. If Randi, on the other hand, wants us to believe he's got nothing up his sleeves, [b]there is no reason why he should decline those other challenges that are based on fairness and not on fraud. Based on fairness because they match the very same criteria he has stated would be his guiding principle in "investigating" those phenomena, as well that they follow scientific and in[/b]telligent protocol that he just cannot refuse unless he wants to confirm he's a sham just like those frauds he discredits.

Will you stop sounding like a broken record? Your are still sounding lame and vacuous. If the nameless psychics who you are busy ranting and sounding like a village town crier on their behalf have nothing on their sleeves you would expect them to agree with the criteria that Randi has stated. Will they go over and display their supernatural abilities, shut Randi up forever, Become more famous and win the cash price? They have challenges for Randi that match his proposed criteria yet the can not come and simply display their supernatural abilities under the same criteria they allegedly agree too. What is hard there, will you tell the psychics or super naturalist out there out there whom you are desperately trying to sell without any success at all to man up and take up on Randi's simple challenge?

I don't call anyone anything until they show they have reason to be so addressed. This kind of quip shows it's either you have never done your own background sourcing of the Randi issues or you just want to keep blinding yourself to it simply because you can't bear to see Randi exposed. Choose your poison whichever way suits you best.

At least Randi has exposed so many people, will you tell the nameless psychics who you are desperately trying to sell without any success to hurry up, take on Randi's challenge, prove themselves, discredit Randi, earn 1 million dollars, earn more popularity and shut Randi up for ever? When will the nameless charlatans you are desperately crying on their behalf accept or agree to the challenge and do it once  and for all. Randi made a very simple proposal, If you have psychic, supernatural or occultist abilities come prove yourself under a controlled environment and will 1 million dollars, Instead of the charlatans taken up the challenge they are busy sending town criers and sophist like you to tell Randi to come and accept their own devious challenge . How cleaver.

I have missed out on this but my man did a very good job already. What the hell is this sophist (vairo) saying?  I am tired of this endless sophism. Vairo is calling Randi a fraud and a cheat for failing to honor an invitation. What then will vairo call those who keep failing honor or to take up his challenge? Cheats and frauds?

viaro:
The fact that Randi is NOT willing to face up to them says volumes about his charade - especially where his credibility is now in doubt. We know Randi always wants to shift the goal posts: charlatans always do so in order to come claiming some cheap glory. The guys who are challenging Randi have offered him all fairness - fairness that he cannot refuse - so that this matter should be settled once and for all. Randi enjoys attacking the credibility of others; but he also enjoys people like you who try to shield him from facing up to real challenges when the chips are down.

Another very lame talk. Randi is not a psychic, He is an ex magician and a skeptic. He might not know all their tricks but that does not mean its still not a trick. All he is telling them to do is come and display their so called psychic powers under the radar and let people know how real it is, but as usual instead of them taking up the challenge they are all over the place(including their praise singers like you) attacking Randi for failing to take up their own devious challenge.

Why are you lying through your teeth? Where has the "scientific community" drawn that conclusion with such finality as you're trying to deceive yourself into believing? The intellectuals with scientific protocols indeed exist - if you only but did a little check on you own rather than sit lazily behind a PC making such silly and ridiculous statements tantamount to nothing other than gutless lying! The way you atheists just make such noise about the "scientific community" is awesome - but shameful. Please grow up!

. My guy no be fight, you are the one that needs to grow up. I got this from wikipedia it cites about 5 different sources that says that the consensus of the scientific community is that psychic abilities have NOt been scientifically shown to exist. Here is just one out of the 5 sources. 

"^ Reuters (5 September 2003). "[i]Telepathy gets academic in Sweden". CNN. http://edition.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/09/05/offbeat.telepathy.reut/index.html. Retrieved 9 March 2009. "Despite decades of experimental research ,  there is still no proof that gifts such as telepathy and the ability to see the future exist, mainstream scientists say.".

It also cites those who wrote the science standards for the California State Board of Education in its sources. Vairo please name just ONE respectable or mainstream scientific body that have stated or established that psychic abilities exists scientifically or for ever keep your mouth shut.

Should anyone be surprised about that? Should I even be surprised that you would celebrate a man who uses trickery instead of sincerity and fairness? This is why I am laughing at the ridiculous inclination of atheists to celebrate falsehood and trickery while they make excuses for real case scenarios proffering openness and fairness! I'll chalk that up so next time I know it's no longer news that atheists also celebrate trickery and falsehood. Says nothing, though, about WHY Randi is running like hell from the challenges open to him. He knows - because no 'tricks' under the sun will help him produce the same effects. Let him DARE.

Randi has ALWAYS been open about his magic tricks so there is nothing new there. It his sincerity and fairness that lead him to set up the challenge, but this time he wanted to really know if those shouting at long distances really have anything of value up their sleeves to present instead of empty noise and tricks.

Story! I could BUT laugh at the sheer stupidity in that narration. Dude, what have I been saying all along? WHY does/did Randi NOT walk on hot coals for even 10 seconds? And he has the idiocy of priding himself as a "debunker"? HAHAHAHAHA!! You this man, please go and sit down in a small corner!

Randi does not claim to have the ability to walk on hot coals, The other guy obviously has developed some tricks that enable him to walk on coal but instead of coming out and telling people he assigns it to some supernatural cause which is what Randi is really after. If the guy's supernatural agent can enable him walk on hot coal for about 50 seconds then why not also enable him stand the heat of boiling water for 50 seconds. Coal burning at 100degress and water or oil boiling at that temperature and the same no? The guy is obviously a trickster and there is no supernatural agent that is giving him any ability at all. He obviously developed the trick.

I don't care how many seconds Randi wanted to see the act that surprised him. Calling for the same act for 50 seconds will not make any difference. The fact was that Randi saw but could NOT deny that such an event took place! LET RANDI PRODUCE THE SAME RESULTS for the same amount of time as he saw in that act - 5 secs, 10 secs, 15 secs - doesn't matter: Just let him replicate the same results with his own "amazing Randi trickery". That's all! WHY DID YOU NOT REPORT THAT HE DID?

Stop shouting my brother. Randi is NOT a psychic and he does not claim to have such abilities. He is only interested in how real such claims are. An external agent that can make you walk on hot coal for 50s seconds should be able to guide you through boiling water of the same temperature no? The fact that the irony escapes you is laughable.

Now assuming the same guy walked on hot coals for the requested 50 seconds, would that change Randi's mind one bit? Of course not - and we know why! 

How do you know that if the guy had walked on boiling water or hot oil that would not have changed Randi's mind? Are you a mind reader?

viaro:
@toneyb,

You have a subtle way of taking us for a ride - and I really don't appreciate that. Where you have sometime in the past been sensible, I have looked past the notion of you being an atheist and appreciated what you had to say. But excuse my being blunt with you in this one.

. No need to get all worked up my brother.

That is the usual atheistic skeptic cry. When you guys do not know how to save face, you declare everything and everybody to be as fraudulent as your own charlatans. And Randi so likes to read this cheap lullabies from those of you who like to make these broad categorizations.

Viaro do you know any pastor, psychic, babalawo or that can fully demonstrate his so called abilities in front of every body under full scientific scrutiny if yes name the person and put us all to shame once and for all? All your endless cries will not help you.

Don't you see how very empty your drivel is? The one thing you can't cement on others who call Randi's bluff is the accusation that we "never take time to source" Randi and his ilk out! This is why in my previous reply it is obvious that Randi does not appeal to people like me - which was why I made clear that I would not bet a dime on his silly a[color=Black]ss[/color]. The guy is a cheap cheat - if you have any salient thing to do other than lick his boots, go source him out and stop being so deceitfully apologetic on his behalf!

And who are YOU? Your position in the scheme of things is WHAT? Of what importance is your opinion in anything? Are you a psychic? Why does Randi have to appeal to people like you? Randi might be a cheap cheat but so are all the others that can not come out and fully demonstrate their so called abilities and show that it can stand scientific scrutiny.

And thanks to those who call Randi out for the charlatan he is - no biggy there. Randi as a charlatan "debunking" charlatans - what news is in there? But let him go near those who will not kid with his roadside show and let's see how much of "debunking" he would muster.

And who are those that will not kid with his road side show? . Will they just go show their psychic ability and shut him up forever and show to the entire world that they truly have the abilities they claim to posses and show that he is a charlatan?

Your whole garboil is LAME with a capital L. Randi is a dupe, we know. The same thing he set up is what others have set up - even at a cheaper rate! The US$1 million is NOT his money, so cry all you want. If Randi has any credibility, let him face up to those who have exposed him for his charade. You don't think there's anything there? No surprises - because Randi enjoys the charade his boot-lickers put up in his defence so he can ride high on your ridiculous whinging here.

So what if it is not his money? The money is still up for grabs. Who are those that have "exposed" him? . Will they quickly go and show that their abilities are real and can stand scientific scrutiny? Will they do that and shut Randi forever? Crying endlessly without taking the test will neither save you nor the guys whose boots you are continuously licking.

The same thing Randi has been offered - the clock is still ticking and he has NOT been able to face up. Please tell me why instead of crying on his behalf.

Randi did not say that he is a psychic and he has never said that psychic abilities does not exists, all he said is that anybody with such abilities should come forward and display them under some scientific scrutiny for people to see how real those abilities are. That is a very SIMPLE request for any body that truly has the ability and can demonstrate it. The same charlatans are all over televisions and in various show displaying their so called abilities no? Some of them even have temples and claim a very high success rate, Will you and them stop crying all over the place and take up the challenge?

Let me come in here.

viaro:
Sorry mazaje, no biggy there. Randi is a charlatan and knows it so very well. He may wave his charade in front of people who lick up his boots and never take time to source him out, that is why he appeals to you.

Randi maybe a charlatan but so are all the other psychics out there who claim to be what they are not at all. They just go about waving their charade in front of gullible people who never take time to source them out that is why they appeal to people like you. Thanks to Randi we now know how the charlatans operate and the methods they use.

We know why - because he does not really have any fairplay up his sleeves. We can as well say that nobody needs to take up any challenges from Randi - that is what he wants his chorus singers to say so that he could go off dancing on ice. Randi ought to face up to to those challenges IF he has any credibility at all - that is the point.

This is just lame and ridiculous, Just like mazaje has said Randi does not need to face any challenge, He was the one that put forth a challenge to any psychic who believes he is real to come forward and demonstrate his psychic abilities and win 1 million dollars but instead of coming forward and doing that very simple task some thing the psychics claim they can do or have been doing all the time, the charlatans are instead throwing some bogus challenge around just to save their faces as mazaje pointed out. If they truly have the ability why not just go demonstrate it and embarrass Randi or shut him up once and for all?

Rubbish. Let Randi REPRODUCE what he calls 'hoaxes' and stop running away from those challenges. Why is that proving too hard for him? Let him keep his US$1 million (it is not his personal money) - but let him face up to serious challenges from intellectuals with scientific protocols. Why is that a hard thing for him to do?

This is just too lame, Randi's challenge is for those so called psychics to come forward and demonstrate their psychic abilities under controlled and watchful eyes of others(in the open). The fact they they are not willing to come forward and attempt or take on his challenge says more about them and their so called abilities NOT him. The so called "intellectual with scientific protocols" do not exist because the consensus of the scientific community is that psychic abilities have not been demonstrated to exist.

Yes, Randi is ready to shift the goal posts and decide on who to debunk - the charlatans he knows only too well will fall face down for his trickery. He also knows he will be humiliated free of charge by those who are still waiting for him to face up to the challenges they have for him. Let him use his trickery to REPRODUCE the same results.

I really liked what mazaje said that Randi is willing to use trickery to unmask, debunk and otherwise humiliate psychics and paranormal researchers. Like mazaje rightly said the irony truly escapes them. There was this guy that could walk on hot coal. He demonstrated that ability in front of his audience and fans. Randi came there and was truly astonished and openly said that he did not understand the trick behind the guy's ability. He then threw a challenge for the guy to do the same with boiling water and hot oil, stating that if the guy could walk on hot coal for about 50 seconds (or there about) without hurting his feet, he should also be able to put his feet in boiling water or boiling oil for the same duration and come out unscathed.

The guy quickly refused and began to attack Randi as usual. I completely agree with Randi if the guy could walk on hot coal why not step his feet in boiling water or boiling oil for the same duration. Randi uses the same tricks they use on people to discredit them and that irony is what escapes them

Nothing new - we all know that there are frauds. So Randi picks on them (the frauds) but he escapes the challenge from those who are not going to kid with him. If it was not for these others who challenge him, the same Randi would have been riding high on gullible praise singers who excuse his hoaxes.

The same hoaxes they use in deceiving people and collecting their money is the same thing Randi uses against them. Randi may be a hoax but so are the fraudulent and unscrupulous people that go about deceiving people and collecting their money.

It shows you are not in current news, dude. Go and find out more about the so-called "integrity" of Randi you're praising here before you eat back your words. If Randi goes about lying to people, he should be named and shamed in the same way that he takes pleasure at naming and shaming charlatans - that is the whole point in those who have challenged him. It is a shame that some people will excuse Randi from real issues and claim that he does not need to take up any challenge - that is simply a lazy way of thinking and a ready-made escape hatch that Randi enjoys so well.

The people "challenging" were pushed to the wall and had to fight back. Since Randi is a person that revels in exposing their trickery and fraudulent activities, They just had to find a way to shut him up, Not because they so called abilities are real but because they know very well that they will loose their means of lively hood or their source of prestige should they allow Randi to keep exposing them. The challenge is very simple and still stands. If you think you have the ability to display supernatural powers go display it and win a million dollars, throwing your own challenge to Randi without displaying yours under scientific scrutiny is nothing but an act of face saving.

KunleOshob:
Interesting topic

My contribution: Actually it as been scientifically proven that the human brain emits Beta, Alpha, Delta & Theta waves. This is a very new area in science and research / knowledge in this field is very limited, however it as shown a lot of potential as experiments have shown that man can interact control his computer using brainwaves to control it instead of a key board or a mouse. Actually the potentials of this technology are immense even though it is still in it's early stage the U.S militery is already spending millions on financing scientists researching the brain wave phenomena. The question now begs, what are we doing with brain waves we apparently don't use or can even comprehend? Personally i suspect it maybe there for communication with the supernatural. It might even be the means by which God knows what is in our mind. Ability to be able to manipulate and control brain waves would give man tremendous power over other men becos you would be able to control them and manipulate them. You can imagine the potentials of this "technology". The use and manipulation of this brain wave technology might actually be what is responsible for a good number of paranormal occurences. For more on brainwave technology check the link below:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6661974/

Interesting.

James Randi has 1million dollars(US) to give to anybody that can prove that his/her mystical capability is real.

ilosiwaju:
What i intend researching is the african/naija bu.ll sh.it. By that i mean:
1. People's di.cks disappearing after talking to strangers.
2. Blood money.
3. Ofe(teleport).
4. Ayeta(bulletproof jazz).
5. Some crazy stories from OPC and all these Iriri Aiye folks.

Some people are so convinced about the existence of all this stuffs though some are honest to admit they have not seen some. . .most people are just dam.n sure these things are real. Which way?

We are in 2010 yet a large percentage of Nigerians still believe that the remains of virgins or little children can be turned into crispy cash . Some completely believe that human beings can turn into animals(owls, vultures, rats, ants) etc . Some dude was narrating a story to us about how some guys in Yenagoa (Bayelsa) turn into rats and vultures at night when embarking on their robbery mission. . I just kept quiet in other not to embarrass him. You hear stories like bullet proof juju, People disappearing and appearing in other places, turning into fish and swimming from one end of the sea to another. How do we ever develop and start building our own airplanes, submarines, super sonic fighter jets, space telescope, electron microscope, computers, cars etc when an average Nigerian truly believes in these myths and urban legends that keeps us in total darkness? .

Our Nigerian media is not helping matters at all, they give credibility to all these nonsense. You get to hear of such urban legends reported on nightly news broadcast. The Nigerian movie industry is a very BIG SHAME. It's always one mammy water story or the other. . "Blood money", "How Stella turned into a vulture". These beliefs are further entrenched with baseless and endless rumors all the time. From "Breathing tree", to "Singing chair". People go to school but are still unable to make any difference or contribute anything significant at all to the over all development of the society at large because these false beliefs we hold over shadows the laws of nature they learn in  their various schools. Nigerians(Africans) go to schools all over the world yet they are still unable to build their own technology, We attend some of the best schools in America, Europe and Asia with the people that live there, yet they are always moving ahead while we are always languishing in our continuous state of oblivion.

A white man sees something he does not really understand and tries to find natural explanations for it. The average Nigerian/African revels in the thoughts of mysterious and baseless myths and urban legends. We are always unable to do anything for ourselves because of obsolete beliefs in urban legends and myths that has become an integral part of our lives and "reality". Its almost a hopeless case.

That viaro man is a bad, bad man. He ended up driving our man away.

MyJoe:
^^^ I hope you know the implications of driving too fast?

I am a reckless driver as already pointed out by nuclearboy. What's up with you, I have really been enjoying your contributions to this section lately. Best wishes from this end.

Where is deepsight?

nuclearboy:
Don't hold your breath, Enigma. Toneyb is driving recklessly on his way to inform you that those scientists must have been bribed by christians or are actually christians masquerading as scientists

According to the new paper article a plague happened in Egypt about 3000 years ago as a result of natural phenomena triggered by changes in the climate and environmental disasters that happened hundreds of miles away. How does this give credence to the myth written in exodus that the event happened because some tribal deity who harden the heart of an unelected and unimpeachable king wanted to kill people?

Once science finds things out that comes close to the myths written in religious text the religionist are so quick to claim some kind of victory but when science contradicts mythical stories the same religionist will not waste time to spite or castigate science. Does the OP know over a 100 years of archeological exploration fails to find anything to support the exodus narrative found in the Torah?Most archaeologists( including Jewish archaeologists like Israel Finkelstein and Ze'ev Herzog) regard the Exodus as non-historical.

Some scholars say that if the event actually happened then the Exodus would have happened 1447 BC, during the reign of Pharaoh Thutmose III (1479-1425 BC) this articles says that the event might have happened during the reign of Pharaoh Rameses the Second, who ruled between 1279BC and 1213BC. The bible does not even mention the name of the Egyptian Pharaoh at that time which is a major characteristics of most myths, in most myths events are talked about but the real names of the major actors are mostly omitted for obvious reasons.

According to the article a volcanic eruption was also responsible for the plague.

"One of the biggest volcanic eruptions in human history occurred when Thera, a volcano that was part of the Mediterranean islands of Santorini, just north of Crete, exploded around 3,500 year ago, spewing billions of tons of volcanic ash into the atmosphere."

How does this come close to the myth of Moses throwing his stick into the water and turning it into blood?

Why are Christians and Muslims so eager to play the persecution card when they persecute so many? They are so eager to preach against us (atheists), gays, any other religion outside of their own and anyone living a lifestyle they that is different from their or which they don't approve.

Often you hear the most hate filled ridiculous comments you can imagine coming out of the mouth of the servants of Allah and the Children of Jehovah. Yet the slightest comment against them raises they're fury beyond believe. You see them summarily condemning people most of the time, justifying hate, bigotry, genocide and death. Yet they are very quick to clutch the persecution card when their beliefs or actions are questioned? . The atheists or others from another religion makes fun of them and it's persecution for their beliefs. . It seems to me that, anyone daring to tell a Christian or a Muslim to follow the laws, and not force their religion on others is "persecution" these days. My own theory is that they are fed misconceptions of none believers for as long as they are indoctrinated in the infallibility theories of their god and its important to dispel these opinions too. I will like to hear the opinion of other atheist in the house.

Congrats jesoul.

noetic16:
depends on how objectively u look at it the posers it unravels. what ever holes u chose to pick or elaborate in the God hypothesis, can also be illustrated for any of the hypothesis u postulate.

Fair enough.

No sir. . . .I STRONGLY DISAGREE.

The death and destruction of species is counter balanced by the birth of new species. . .this IMO creates a balanced and "perfect" planet. Can this planet survive if no humans (since the first man) has ever died? where would u or I be in that kind of an unbalanced system?

The planet will survive without humans, other planets are surviving without humans. What point are you trying to make?

1. really? have u got a better idea of a reproduction system? where do u place the curse God placed on man on eliminating them from the garden of eden? . . . .there are 7 billion people alive today who are perfect products of a well functioning reproductive system. . . . .how does this simple FACT fit into your innuendos?

What has the mythical garden of Eden got to do with anything? .

2. if u subscribe to the "God did it" hypothesis then u should not have any problem believing that the evil (including diseases and[b] natural disasters[/b]) of this present world can be traced to sin.

What exactly is sin? Sin is a religious myth and nothing more. Natural disasters HAVE NOTHING to do with sin. Natural disasters are an integral part of the dynamism of the earth, absence of them would have even more devastating consequences. Natural disasters have NOTHING to do with any God or any mythical sin. Here is what wirinet wrote about natural disasters on another thread.

"Hurricanes are cause the a huge temperature differentials between the equator and the poles, excess heats at the equator (mid ocean) leads to excessive high water evaporation, the resulting water vapour takes on the natural motion of the earth and built up more energy, the resulting hurricane or tropical storm moves towards the poles in order to dissipate this energy.

Earthquakes are caused by the movement of the continental plates or plate tectonics. The continents are pushing against each other, one mid ocean in the Atlantic and another near the north Africa pushing Africa against Europe. When the pressure becomes too great, the resultant release of Energy results in an earth quake. That is why you get Earth quakes mainly around the Haiti, Mexico San Fransisco axis and the Turkey Greece Iran Axis. Also the longer time the last earthquake occurred the more devastating the next earthquake would be. As so much pressure would have built up.

Tsunamis are cause by earthquakes in the middle of the ocean. The resultant quake would set a huge body of water in motion and eventually the waves would hit the shore and inland with a huge wall of water, causing its own devastation"

They are called natural disasters not supernatural disasters for a reason.

3. What I see is a perfectly designed solar system, organic habitats, plant and animal kingdoms, unbelievably lovely sense organs. ,  . . . . can u think of a necessary sense organ that humans need to survive on this planet that we do not have?

Natural selection provides a better explanation that the God did it hypothesis. Human beings are surviving today because our progenitors thought of ways to deal with their environment and create things like drugs, cloths, good shelter, good food, technology to help them live longer and better lives over a long period of time. Our sense organs alone are not enough for us to survive on this planet that is why we have developed better machines and equipments to help us survive.   

what is reality? ,  ,   . . . does reality tell u, that u evolved from a monkey?

And who told you that human beings evolved from monkeys?

This is quite evasive.

which of the above ridiculous hypothesis do u subscribe to and why.

I subscribe to natural selection because it better explains all the order and chaos that we see around.

noetic16:
1. your opinion is not based on any FACT.

How does the God hypothesis explain any thing really?

2. the extinction of species does not make the case of an imperfect planet, neither does natural disasters or ,

The extinction of species makes a perfect example of an imperfect planet. Of what use is all the death and destruction? What is the intelligence behind the gratuitous pain and sufferings experienced by the species?

The intelligent order of creation that creates a meaningful food chain, plants and animals, respiratory and reproductive systems,  the solar system, the mountains and hills, forests, seas and oceans, land and every other thing u can think of does not connot randomness. . . . . , it connotes super intelligence

Natural selection explains these phenomena better than the "God did it" hypothesis. What super intelligence is it that supposedly designed the reproductive systems of humans so poorly? The human reproductive canal is way too small and leads to unnecessary deaths. What meaningful food chain are you talking about since a lot of animals die out of starvation? Natural selection is NOT a random process and explains these things better than your "God did it" hypothesis. How does your "God did it" explain the existence of diseases and earth quake for example? How does your God did it hypothesis explain all the wasted space?

. . . . .what I find baffling isyour dismissal of this obvious reality.

Reality has nothing to do with your God did it hypothesis.

1. whats your explanation for the beauty of nature u mentioned?

There are so many explanations, Like natural selection, adaptation, competition, evolution etc. How has the God did it hypothesis explain anything beside ascribing things we don't know to something imaginary? How does God did it explain the existence of bacteria, virus and volcanoes?

2. why do u exclude the zebra consumption from the "beauty of nature"? . . . . .the zebra also survives on other organisms . . .neither does the lion live forever. . .the lion is also eventually fed on. . .how then does this scene u describe constitute the ugliness of nature?

It doesn't constitute ugliness but chaos. You talked about orderliness and I said that there is as much chaos as there is orderliness.

3.  perhaps u are assuming that the other planets on our solar system were designed for man. . . . were they? how does man's inability to dwell on other planets constitute ugly nature? . . . . .has man maximised the full potentials of the earth?

Who is talking about ugliness here? I was talking about chaos in nature. How does your God hypothesis explain the existence of colliding asteroids and comets against themselves and other planets? If you look at our planets for example you will see that pretty much everything off of earth appears to be useless or harmful to us and would require major effort and technology to make it even marginally useful and the same can actually be said about most of the earth. Nature is very wasteful? How does the "God did it" hypothesis explain why so many women(about 50% or so, am not really sure of the figure) have involuntary abortions for example?

[quote author=jesus. link=topic=419465.msg5774476#msg5774476 date=1269627382]Wao. So how did the world evolve? Or what created the world that u toney live in presently?[/quote]I don't know. But that doesn't mean that I should go around making things up.

davidylan:
you were not there in the begining but somehow you've already classed the biblical account as a "myth" but evolution might have some "evidence"?

Do I need to be there to know that the earth and the plants could NOT be created before the sun as suggested by? The problem is that a lot of Christians admit that the genesis account is an allegory. Very telling.

[quote author=jesus. link=topic=419465.msg5774353#msg5774353 date=1269625983]why then do still believe in it?[/quote]And who told you that I believe in it?

noetic16:
what amazes me are your excuses for the ntelligent order of creation as we see it today?

When look around I see order and I also see chaos. So are the order and chaos all intelligent? When I look around I see mindless forces causing order and chaos all the time. Its 50% order and 50% chaos. The God hypothesis has failed to explain the order and chaos we see around. It tries to but it fails completely in my opinion. Our planet is very crude and harsh. We live in a world in which 98% of all the species that have ever emerged are now extinct. What order is there when most of the species that have ever lived are now extinct? A world that is constantly at the mercy of natural disasters, diseases and one strife or the other.

Sure there is definitely a lot of beauty in nature, but there are also a lot of disturbing things too. Just observe a pack of cheetahs or lions taking down a zebra and eating it while it's alive and twitching, or even a Venus fly trap capturing a living insect and digesting it alive. Consider the Solar System. Only the earth is hospitable to human life, the rest is just chaos. Asteroids and comets colliding against one another and against other planets. Needless destruction in my opinion. Most of the earth is inhospitable to human life and the life of other species. YES there is a lot of order but then there is equally a lot chaos.

[quote author=jesus. link=topic=419465.msg5774151#msg5774151 date=1269624210]The evolution stories u believe wasn't it written by men? or were u there when the world evolved[/quote]Evolution to me is just a plausible but flawed hypothesis of the origins and diversity of species and all life forms both living and extinct. It has some form of [i]evidence [/i]for it even though very very little compared to your belief that some unknown and undetectable deity used words of the hebrew language to create all the birds that we see around about 6000 years ago. I was not there when the planet evolved neither where you or any of the persons that penned down the genesis creation myth which you believe in.

noetic16:
Blah blah blah

Bla bla bla sheep have you any wool?

. .  . .just tell how EXACTLY u came to the conclusion that God did not inspire the bible. .  .showing me another example of what God inspired. . . . .than I will drop my bible, abandon my faith and subscribe to your atheistic malady

No God has ever appeared and said that he/she inspired any book at all. People wrote down all the books in the bible according to various reasons and intentions, people sat down and choose which books they desired to accept and label "inspired" books, people sat down and decided to call such books that they wrote and choose the word of God. People write books all the time and do such things to them. The hindu verde are inspired words of Gods and Goddesses according to the Hindus no?

I DO NOT want you to be an atheist. You can believe anything you want as long as you also believe that atheist have all the right not to subscribe to your belief in God.

nuclearboy:
interesting to see that "jesus" has joined us here 

.

@ Jesus
Will you please send all the disbelieving and very annoying atheists here on NL to hell PLEASE.

noetic16:
and where is the proof or intellectually driven argument/logic to back up the above fallacy?



This is LAME.

why dont u start by listing the evidences that reconcile the existence of God to that of santa claus?

Aren't you tired of beating the dead horse into the ground already? https://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/c2e47fc50d.gif

noetic16:
what are u talking about? . . ,  ,  .how do u ascertain that the bible u read is man-made and not inspired by God?. . .do u know what it means for something to be inspired?

When will you stop beating the dead horse into the ground. https://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif

Men write stories ALL THE TIME don't they? According to what men say All their religious books were inspired by their various Gods no?

That u do not subscribe to the ontological nature of God does NOT deny or dispute His existence. is there any piece of FACT in the above innuendos worth pondering over?

Men created the  said "ontological nature" of all the Gods they have worshiped and they are still worshiping. Men created ALL religions and ALL the fruits of all the religions they believe in including those religions that are dead and those that are still alive. Religion is nothing more than man's way of doing things that is why it varies from place to place and from culture to culture.