₦airaland Forum

Ihedinobi: I am saying the bolded?! Me? I don't even understand what it means, how can I be the one who said it?

Edit: However, you are the one equating "the body" to "life force". I did not. The Senju are known for a powerful affinity for all kinds of Ninjutsu and a buttload of chakra. Perhaps that was the legacy of the Juubi. I only know for sure that before ever he became the Juubi Jinchuuriki the old Sennin had a very powerful lifeforce that made him capable of beating the Juubi and sealing him into his body.

so if the body doesnt mean the sage's life force which you agree that he had before defeating the juubi, what else does it entail, they had affinity for various jutsu cos they had the physical life force to execute them...

Ihedinobi: I am saying that? Pray tell, how am I saying any such thing?

He shared his eyes with one, then his body(mainly his life force) with the other, now since you are saying juubi is to rinnegan as rikudo is to life force, how come the first child inherited the power of the rinnegan(albeit weaker) which supposedly belongs to the juubi, and the younger child inherited the body which belongs to Rikudo which also means that the younger didnt inherited any power of the juubi, is that it?

Ihedinobi: One had "his eyes", remember? The other had his body. If you're asking why both didn't have his eyes, then I'd ask you why both had to.

Then you're saying the Rikudo got his life force after becoming the jinchuriki of the ten tails?

Ihedinobi: Honestly, I'm not sure what point you're making here. We know that his sons got his powers. My argument is that his ocular powers derived from the Juubi, thus the Elder who inherited those inherited them as transferable characteristics from the Juubi Jinchuuriki - a Kekkei Genkai. I said that was possible because if an ordinary bijuu jinchuuriki could acquire the bijuu's characteristics even temporarily, how much more permanently can the Juubi Jinchuuriki have them? And if he can have them permanently as part of his genetic makeup, why the heck can he not transfer them as kekkei genkai to his children? Consider that, contrary to your insistence, the Juubi is not just pure living chakra, it is the creator and destroyer of all things. That, sir, is a big fricking deal.


You did note where I said that it was a weak example, did you not? Regardless, you appear to be implying that the bijuu aren't anything special. Gaara without the one-tail, according to you, is just as powerful as Gaara with the one-tail, that is, if Gaara had never been a Jinchuuriki he'd have been just as powerful as when he was one. That's rather curious considering that everyone in Narutoverse seems to think that possessing at least one bijuu made them more powerful.

Besides, I don't really know about this 60% chakra used to suppress bijuu thing. Where'd you get that?


Bros, the bolded is what is called in argument "the straw man fallacy". You misrepresented my argument to mean that I inferred from the old Sennin's defeat of the Juubi that there was no ninjutsu before their fight. Can you point out where exactly I said so?

What I did say is that there was no ninjutsu in the world before that fight. I never inferred it from anything. It's too much work right now for me to go fetch the manga pages for evidence but I think you'll find it where Tobi was explaining about the Sennin. Until the Sennin sealed the Juubi, nobody could mold chakra and thus nobody could do ninjutsu.

I don't understand the bit about manifestations and the rinnegan's being ludicrous or whatever. What about the manifestations of the bijuu? How do they prove that the claim that the rinnegan is a characteristic of the Juubi is ludicrous?

Assuming the juubi really altered the Rikudo's dna as you claim, why weren't his children born with the rinnegan?

biolabee: [size=18pt]all this for RIN ??!??!? [/size]

beeni oooo....anime love to badt!!!

kimco: what in God's name, that's a horrible chapter. Kishi c'mon. what is this, captain planet? ''Let's our powers combine....'' nonsense.

Translator's error, not Kishi's

dawoyo: Mangastream.com always releases the best chapters. You can wait 4 their translation.
As 4 Sarutobie, he's been vapourized by Tobi. Remember u can't regenerate if he hits u- see the fourth's right hand?

He started using the jutsu that nullifies every ninjutsu after he gained control of the juubi and he hit Sarutobi before that so he should be regenerating by now..

Ihedinobi: Your next point is how the Sennin could have defeated the Juubi without the Rinnegan and strong lifeforce. Well, I have never argued that the Sennin obtained his lifeforce from the Juubi, I have only maintained that he got the Rinnegan from the Juubi. If the theory that I subscribe to and explaines several pages back is correct then the Sennin only needed an already powerful lifeforce and powerful sealing techniques to take down the Juubi; and if he was Uzumaki, he would have those.

As for the Rinnegan, we have seen already that a jinchuuriki acquires a bijuu's characteristica even if only temporarily - Bee spits ink, Naruto manifests the Kyuubi's eyes etc. The Gold and Silver brothers said to be distantly related to the old Sennin even without ever being Jinchuuriki can manifest the Kyuubi's form! How much more thw Jinchuuriki of the Juubi? It is not unreasonable to believe that the Sennin acquired permanent characteristics from the Juubi and the Rinnegan is not out of the question as one of such.

In fact, considering that there was no ninjutsu before the advent of the Sennin's battle with the Juubi, the Rinnegan could not have existed before that battle. Only Sage Jutsu and Sealing Jutsu could have.

The rikudo defeating the juubi was an extraordinary feat but that doesn't in any way mean there was no ninjutsu before, its rather more like it made people believe in it which sparked a general acceptance of ninjutsu..and when you consider the manifestations of the other tailed beasts to the ten tails, you'll also realize that a rinnegan being dubbed just a manifestation is ludicrous..

Ihedinobi: Lol. First off, I admit that my memory is not clear about what he gave to his sons on his deathbed, but common sense says that each son would be born with something of their father, something biological, no? If these sons were born to him while he was a jinchuuriki - and not just any jinchuuriki but he jinchuuriki of the Juubi - it stands to reason that they would have been born one with his body and the other with his eyes per manga facts. But then, I wouldn't dig in my heels here and say that nothing else was possible judging by the manga's tendency to defy logic.

What I will be stubborn about though is the fact that his division of the Juubi into nine bijuu and sealing its body into the moon had nothing to do with the fact that he became more than human after sealing it into his body. It may seem expectable that whatever changes a jinchuuriki suffers from having a bijuu locked up in their body depend for their continued existence on the continued housing of the bijuu inside them, but that may not be so. When Gaara's et'd dad saw the sand that his son unleashed he thought it was the Ichibi that had gone berserk again, but it was only Gaara. This is only a weak example but it is not far from possible that Gaara's techniques were so powerful only because he had once been Jinchuuriki.

Consider that a bijuu is no more than a fraction of the Juubi itself and it becomes rather obvious that the Juubi Jinchuuriki is extremely likely to retain all the characteristics that he ir she acquired from sealing the Juubi into him/herself.

Your next point is how the Sennin could have defeated the Juubi without the Rinnegan and strong lifeforce. Well, I have never argued that the Sennin obtained his lifeforce from the Juubi, I have only maintained that he got the Rinnegan from the Juubi. If the theory that I subscribe to and explaines several pages back is correct then the Sennin only needed an already powerful lifeforce and powerful sealing techniques to take down the Juubi; and if he was Uzumaki, he would have those.

As for the Rinnegan, we have seen already that a jinchuuriki acquires a bijuu's characteristica even if only temporarily - Bee spits ink, Naruto manifests the Kyuubi's eyes etc. The Gold and Silver brothers said to be distantly related to the old Sennin even without ever being Jinchuuriki can manifest the Kyuubi's form! How much more thw Jinchuuriki of the Juubi? It is not unreasonable to believe that the Sennin acquired permanent characteristics from the Juubi and the Rinnegan is not out of the question as one of such.

In fact, considering that there was no ninjutsu before the advent of the Sennin's battle with the Juubi, the Rinnegan could not have existed before that battle. Only Sage Jutsu and Sealing Jutsu could have.

You're forgetting one major fact that Juubi is just pure living chakra that if you possess it surely will make you more than human but I don't agree with the fact that part of juubi's power found there way into the children's body cos firstly, we don't know if he became jinchuriki before or after giving birth to them and even if it was before giving birth to them, thereks no way you can tell me juubi's chakra mixed with his semen cos you the juubi's chakra is prolly stored somewhere in Rikudo's body and is being used when needed and surely not during sex.

And as for Gaara, every jinchuriki already has an enormous amount of chakra and uses 60% of it to suppress the bijuu's chakra. So when he got free of the one tail, he had full access to all his chakra and that's enough to wreak as much havoc and don't forget his father died when he was a kid and didn't know anything about his level of progression in power..

Ihedinobi: Lol. Guy, take a chill pill na.

Manga FACTS:

1. The Sage became something more than human after becoming Juubi Jinchuuriki

2. He had two sons as Juubi Jinchuuriki

3. The Elder inherited his eyes/ocular power, the Younger inherited his body.

4. A Jinchuuriki always acquires certain characteristics from the bijuu he/she houses.

5. The Juubi is the creator and destroyer of all things.

6. The bijuu are derivations and aspects of the Juubi.

INFERENCE:

The rules would most likelt be different for a monster strong enough to seal the creator and destroyer of all things in his body and house it without dying from the strain. The very fact that becoming Juubi Jinchuuriki elevated him above mere humanity means that his "Jinchuurikiness" is different than all others that we know now. It is entirely plausible that the genes he passed on bore characteristics that he obtained from housinf the Juubi in his body.

Hell no...which do you think Rikudo did first, dispersing the Juubi into smaller bits and sharing his powers between his children? He already had the power of the rinnegan and strong life force before he faced the Juubi, else what would he have usedto conquer that much chakra and suppress it?

Itachi avoiding Jiraiya doesnt mean he cant beat Jiraiya...but on this matter..I'll go for Jiraiya

KazeKage1: Jiraiya used a sensing barrier in his fight with Pein...meaning he could sense anything (chakra) within the barrier range.
Jiraiya switched from being chatty with Pa and Ma to landing a drop kick on one the paths in seconds.
Power? Please....

one question, can Jiraiya use frog kumite in Sage Mode?

Djtm: their eyes were linked. Each of them can use only one kind of jutsu.

From the way the fight panned out, its safe to say, the intel had little impact on the fight, sometimes we underestimate Naruto's smartness. Had Jiraiya known Pain's secret, he still doesnt stand a chance, the only he could have done is abscond.

Djtm: their eyes were linked. Each of them can use only one kind of jutsu.

From the way the fight panned out, its safe to say, the intel had little impact in the fact, sometimes we underestimate Naruto's smartness. Had Jiraiya known Pain's secret, he still doesnt stand a chance, the only he could have done is abscond.

Naruto's sage mode is the perfect one which made it better than Jiraiya in terms of what Sage mode gives, speed, sensing, power, etc. But Jiraiya has tons of jutsus to use in Sage Mode compared to Naruto whose techniques evolves around the rasengan. Naruto's chakra mixed perfectly which nature energy, i.e a perfect sync which is why he has little change in his physical features. But in Jiraiya's case, the nature chakra didnt mix well with his chakra, more like a 60-40 thing...thats why he looks much like a toad.

KazeKage1: Na siddon-look-i-dey-no-jutsu i dey use now.

Naruto had sensing powers prior to attaining SM?

did you gemme wrong or what?

Naruto as no iota of sensing in him prior to acquiring sage mode...the nature chakra he absorbs which mixes with his own chakra is responsible for his sensing powers.

WackyJ1: hehe.. Thanks man... Myoboukuzan has the best Hot water springs

Though i've still got somethings for you too...
Tell me why hasn't obito's sharingan evolved to rinnegan since he's the Juubi's Jinchuriki now?

Simple Juubi doesn't help in awakening and ocular power(s), Rikudo had it even before he became the Juubi's jinchuriki

WackyJ1: Bro. Where are you coming from?
1. Assume you didn't know where naruto trained to get his sage mode and you just suddenly saw him use it. Which animal feature would you say his sage mode had? Would you have really been able to associate his pupils with those of the frogs?
2. Oro and Kabuto summon snakes and they learnt Snake SENjutsu, Jiraiya and Naruto Summon Frogs and they learnt Frog Senjutsu... Now tell me what Harashima summons.. And don't tell me He doesn't have a summon..
3. If you see a summon with those markings around Harashima's eyes around its. Would your theory still hold ?

So you are saying Senjutsu and Senju are just coincidence?

[quote author=nani.666]VERY WRONG[/quote]an imperfect sage in Jiraiya can never be stronger than that of Naruto who perfected it. You can only say Jiraiya used it more comprehensively than Naruto cos he has far more jutsus than Naruto

sarutobie: NO he can't..when he fought madara at the valley of the end,we saw him revert to his normal mode(all worn out with his fair share of beatings) when he stabbed madara he had already used up his sagemode.

he used up his chakra as well..

ledafaze: And I think Hashi can stay like forever in his own sage mode

you're getting my point!

We all agree that Hashi used sage mode...but we don't know the source of his own sage mode...and I'm saying unlike the likes of other sage modes his ownsage mode could be direct not needing any animal affinity like the others.

jidesp: btw tosyn007, are you T-Raw just want to know if its my childhood friend hiding behind this ID. hehehe

no sir...sorry

Kaycee7: Sage mode ain't a kekkei genkai so it can't be hereditary. The SO6P learnt his senjutsu so he can't pass it down to his descendants. Naruto also absorbs direct from the source so I don't see the difference btw him and Hashi.

but it secrets can be pass down...Naruto and Jiraiya's sagehood can be linked to toads, Kabuto's to snakes, hashi to what?

Kaycee7: Nope. Senjutsu is the referral term for learning sage mode. E.g: Naruto's learnt senjutsu.
Senpo means "sage art" ie jutsu that you can now do safely in sage mode.

hows that a difference...all still hover around sage mode

eyoniggar: Does this correlate with my post as regards the comparison btwn sage naruto and sage jiraiya?

i aint referring to that, am talking about Hashirama's sagehood and other sahehoods

KazeKage1: Wood Sage

Haha..very funny!!! My thesis is, Hashirama's sagehood prolly might be hereditary since he has the Rikudo Sennins's physical energy and life force which might include the Rikudo Sennin's sage mode...unlike Naruto, Jiraiya and Kabuto who learned their sage mode from toad and snake respectively, Hashi is absorbing nature energy directly from the source without any 3rd party support, so his sage mode might be have no time constraint. All am saying is, his sagehood might be hereditary, not learnt...

Kaycee7: Hashi's being a sage has nothing to do wit being a senju. Are the frogs from Senju clan? Did he mention "senjutsu" or "senpo"?

Both are sage techniques...what kinda sage is Hashi then?

Ero Sennin is a sage although imperfect cos he has the semblance of a toad whenever uses sennin modo he only needs pa and ma to help sustain sage mode for a longer period by accumulating nature energy during fights. Oro aint a sage but might have attained it when he stripped Kabuto of his powers by absorbing them.

Kaycee7: Nope. No connection at all. Senju is a thousand skills while senjutsu is sage technique.
P.S: To the house, Orochimaru is not a sage.

sure bout that? Would you mind explaining Hashi's sage mode and why 'senjutsu' was mentioned when using a technique during his epic battle with Madara?

Has it ever occur to anyone that Senju clan and Senjutsu might have a connection, I have a complicated theory on this...