₦airaland Forum

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=39490.msg1415903#msg1415903 date=1187717641]TITHING is taught in the New Testament. I've been sharing on this and offered answers to every single question that was posed by those who were antagonistic to the subject. I asked nothing more in return than that such antagonists themselves should oblige answers to my questions. Did they do this, including yourself, TV01?[/quote]No Pilgrim.1, tithing is not taught in the NT. Anywhere. It's mentioned as follows;

1. Once (in 2 gospels) when the Lord is castigating those under the law for blindly following the letter (tithe) and missing the spirit.
2. And In Hebrews to signify the superiority of The Melchizedekal High Priesthood overthe Levitical/Aaronic.

No other mention by the Lord or any Apostles.

Giving and only freewill giving is taught in the NT. Don't try and sneakily bundle tithing in with it.

God bless
TV

Enigma:
Incredible interpretations and mixes-up ---- as I've ever seen; and I've seen all manners of strange arguments before!

Pilgrim.1's error is all the more dangerous as it comes garbed in the jargon of high-brow scholarship and deep understanding.

You can't fail to notice how Pilgrim.1's theology revives a designated physical place/temple (church) and a mediatory priesthood (Levites).

The jargon may be more esoteric and the understanding more convoluted, but it's the same sorry insistence on physical/man-made religious structures .

God bless
TV

[quote author=simply_me link=topic=39490.msg1414455#msg1414455 date=1187700337]because u don't believe in it doesnt make it false my dear.[/quote]Because you do doesn't make it true sweetie.

[quote author=simply_me link=topic=73847.msg1414450#msg1414450 date=1187700188]because u don't believe in it doesnt make it false my dear.[/quote]And because you do doesn't make it true sweetie !

Strange, there seems to be no "Reply" button on that thread!

Hi Enigma,

Hope all's well. I'm encouraged by seeing you fight the good fight. _{Presumably you are as amazed as I am as how anyone could read Deuteronomy 14:26 as "Give it to the poor, but do so via the MOGS" Always learning huh ?}

Presumably this is a technical issue or intervention by site admin. Surely Pilgrim.1 wouldn't go to such lengths to close down dissenting voices !

God bless
TV

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=39490.msg1411791#msg1411791 date=1187626468]SHOW me (and others reading this thread) WHERE God asked YOU to DENOUNCE tithes![/quote]The Bible exhorts believers to accurately divide the word. The erronous way tithe is often preached in contemporary times is nothing less than bondage and a snare for many simple believers, and should be at once resisted and deconstructed.

The sum of any NTC tithing position/doctrine is this.

At best it's an individual and voluntary exercise. Not binding or incumbent on anyone.

And certainly not an integral part of NT worship.

Your venal efforts to appropriate redundant OT strictures, re-engineer them as NT worship forms and then use them to snare and fleece the flock of God will be met with fierce resistance.

God bless
TV

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1411896#msg1411896 date=1187627940]I'll note that; and as soon as you deserve it, you'll be served.[/quote]Predictable empty boast! Abeg, stick to making wierd animal noises! _{Which would well accompany the scatological bovine waste you've assiduously spread over this thread! Because it's green, do you think its grass? Nonsense !}

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1411719#msg1411719 date=1187625289]Dare me more. . . as again, dare me me!!

_{pilgrim.1 let's out a guffaw that could remove his spine if he heard me!!} [/quote]Consider yourself dared!

_{And please ditch the domestic pet, farmyard animal, zoo inmate and wild beast noises! You are in polite company now !}

God bless
TV

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=45362.msg1392752#msg1392752 date=1187132144]Let me repeat here what I also cautioned against>

Don't use your own lies to play God. If you don't understand issues clearly from the WORD, simply offer the advice you can, and don't try pretending that your own fallacy is the truth.[/quote]You'd do well to heed your own advice madam.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=39490.msg1398798#msg1398798 date=1187269525]If it is true at all that you have not denounced what is in the WORD, what did you mean by this statement:[/quote]For me to denounce it, it has to be there! The whole point of this thread, to see if it is taught as part of NTC.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1411281#msg1411281 date=1187620357]One question, please:

Did TITHING originate with the LEVITICAL priesthood?[/quote]
No it did not.

But please note the following;

1. Tithing was extant before Abraham and common practice as clearly gleaned from antiquity.
2. Tithing did not originate with Abraham.
3. It was nowhere instituted as a law or commandment with or at the time of Abraham.
Therefore, what was never enacted, can not be abrogated.
4. It was enacted with the Mosaic law and made redundant as part of same, via the Cross.

Simple really.

God bless
TV

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1410555#msg1410555 date=1187611742]You guys are just a big shame! If you had any scholarship to boast of, please go hawk it for the price of "pure water" on the streets of Lagos![/quote]No dear, you are the one selling scholarship - or something that you are trying to pass off as such - to participants. I am merely sharing and discussing the truth of scripture. The Bible warns of those who use the gospel as a "cloak for covetousness" and make "merchandise" of the word of God.

Your end game is to justify a salaried professional clergy. It's not there, non withstanding your contorted and convoluted manouvering.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1410555#msg1410555 date=1187611742]Instead of settling down to DISCUSS with people, it has become second nature to you to offer childish questions, look for loop holes in people's posts to sarcastically criticize when you yourselves have NOTHING to offer other than assertive denials and decorative farcé![/quote]It's tedious to respond to blatant and endless butchering of the scriptures on a point by point basis. Especially when you can post up to half a dozen posts on just the one word. Example in your discussion with Enigma, the following verse Deuteronomy 14:26 which reads

26 And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord NKJV
26 and thou shalt bestow the money for whatsoever thy soul desireth, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul asketh of thee; and thou shalt eat there before Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou and thy household. NAS
26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you ESV
26 and thou shalt give the money for whatever thy soul desireth, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatever thy soul asketh of thee; and thou shalt eat there before Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thy house DARBY
26 and thou hast given the money for any thing which thy soul desireth, for oxen, and for sheep, and for wine, and for strong drink, and for any thing which thy soul asketh, and thou hast eaten there before Jehovah thy God, and thou hast rejoiced, thou and thy house.YLT

In a discussion about the contextual meaning of the word rendered “bestow”
Pilgrim 1 did the following (and in a legthy multiple post treatise)

1. Introduced a needless Salary and  Tithe dichotomy?
2. Postulated Buying & Selling distinction? (And a market in trading tithes??)
3. Insisted that bestowing the monetary converted tithe on oxen, sheep or WINE or strong drink was in someway buying someone elses tithe (was wine or strong drink ever tithed?)
4. Moved on to introduce the concept of traders, merchants, entrepreneurs, tycoons (and presumably oligarchs at some point).
5. Tied that to God in Christ – and rightly so too - hating merchandising in worship.
6. Made reference to her obsession with TV01 !
7. Referenced several other uses of the word in diofferent contexts, but insisted the meaning in different contexts buttressed your ill defined one in the verse under discussion.
8. Determined bestow meant “give” as in donate, confer, bequeath etc, and not buy, spend, use or apply etc
9. Spoke some Greek and some Hebrew (although unbeknown to her she had been speaking Greek all along!)
10. Then claimed that the giving was to the poor
11. But it had to be given via the MOG’s

One more time;

26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice. NIV

That from a version I don't even like.

What in that verse makes "whatever you like", "anything you ", "whatsoever your soul lusteth after", "whatsoever thy soul desires, and all the variations difficult to understand. You are not interested in context, rather pretext for your recieved, traditional notions,

Devilishly convoluted and disingenuous. Pilgrim.1, this is way beyond the pale and just not acceptable.

You are also championing academic knowledge as king. Insisting that without being deeply versed in Greek, Hebrew, all the different translations or versions and knowing which to use and when, one cannot rightly understand or divide the word of truth. By the which doing two things;

1. Trying to do away with the tutelage of the Holy Spirit
2. Replacing that leading with the teachings of a professional salaried clergy class, who based on their knowledge are alone the true possesors of God's truth.

How anyone could read that verse to mean what you claim is nothing short of absurd. At best the poor and priests were to be included in the feasting, but it was feasting non the less.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1410739#msg1410739 date=1187614017]Is it too much to ask for a dialogue?[/quote]No, but that is not what you are after.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1410555#msg1410555 date=1187611742]TV01, you haven't met the REAL me yet! I may be a young woman, but it will take you eons to dream of even matching my insight here and outside the Forum.[/quote]A date with you would be uunforgettable in how absolutely forgettable it was! Or is that an offer ? Oya post your pic!

Young woman huh? That alone won't swing it. I know highly accomplished women of all ages, none of whom are ashamed to call me friend and not a few who would be happy to have me as a husband

My mandate is not to match you my dear, don't make it yours to outdo me. Anyway, I'm sure there are those who would make worthier benchmarks for you than I ever would!

Most women have a hook. Be it looks, figure, child birth, cooking etc, I guess yours is knowledge? Knowledge puffs up. Listen to how seriously you take yourself ! Which is doubly tragic in this instance , as not only are you so painfully wrong, but you are willing to travel to the ends of the world to declare yourself right.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1410555#msg1410555 date=1187611742]I've severally warned you to DISCUSS with people - but since you have more peanuts in your skull than brains, dare me more: and you will be sorry for walking on two legs!![/quote]Rail against me with all the vituperation you can muster. I won't budge. And please save your threats, I know He who judges me.

It you can find it within yourself to discuss simply, on a point by point basis, I'm here. If you want to use a mixture of abuse, threats, warped scholarship and lengthy posts to dissuade me, I still won't abandon the thread for you.

The choice is yours young lady.

God bless
TV

[quote author=Hnd-holder link=topic=272.msg1410840#msg1410840 date=1187615341]@pilgrim.1

Any problem?[/quote]I think my playing hard to get is getting to her !

dav700:
tithing is an eternal law in the everlasting kingdom of christ so, from ages past to ages to come its compulsory!

Presumably the Angels tithe? along with the 4 & 24 elders.

Sarcasm apart, do you have any scriptural backing for this? or is it just the usual parroted MOGbunkum?

God bless
TV

[quote author=G-money link=topic=272.msg1407589#msg1407589 date=1187485680]@poster
I am quoting the Amplified version for easier understanding. Also, I am showing several verses so you can see where Jesus started talking:

Luke 11:
37Now while Jesus was speaking, a Pharisee invited Him to take dinner with him, so He entered and reclined at table.

38The Pharisee noticed and was astonished [to see] that Jesus did not first wash before dinner.

39But the Lord said to him, Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside you yourselves are full of greed and robbery and extortion and malice and wickedness.

40You senseless (foolish, stupid) ones [acting without reflection or intelligence]! Did not He Who made the outside make the inside also?

41But [dedicate your inner self and] give as donations to the poor of those things which are within [of inward righteousness] and behold, everything is purified and clean for you.

42But woe to you, Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every [little] herb, but disregard and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done without leaving the others undone.

Vers 42 in KJV - But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Jesus is plainly telling them that "Tithing, they ought to have done but not leave other things undone."
So Jesus didn't preach a sermon on it but He referenced it. But remember, God loves a cheerful giver. If you can't release your tithes & offering cheerfully (because you love God), then just go ahead and buy yourself a happy meal with the dough.


---Don't hate the messenger----[/quote]Two thing too lay what is a common misunderstanding to rest

1.
The Lord was addressing Pharisees - Jews living under the law of Moses - at a time that the law was still in effect, as He had not by His death fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law on behalf of all those who put their faith in Him and His saving work. He could not have told them to break the law or His mission would have been aborted as He would have been an accomplice/instigator to a transgression of the very law He came to fulfill - by living it perfectly and then dying - for us all.

2.
The Lord noted that they tithed "herb" - agricultural/farmland products - never money. And in any event, the needy, the dispossesed and the disenfranchised were more of a priority in Gods thoughts, not some mindless ritual based on 10%

His thrust was the intent of the law not the letter. A point Pharisees, legalists and Judaizers never really get.

You cannot look to the law as you are not Jewish. And if you do, you cannot be Christian.

Seek Gods face in this, do not be bound and robbed of your liberty by the traditions of men. They would have you zealous for them by excluding you by law. It supports their man-made religious structures with them at the apex giving covering? It's why people come onto NL and say tragic things like "MOGS, Prophets, Pastoers etc etc are the mouthpiece of God or Gods spokesmen". In this day and age? after the complketed and perfect work at the cross??

God bless
TV

Pilgrim.1,

If I were to say your understanding was basic, I would be being kind. Actually it's twisted, along with your logic. As Enigma has rightly pointed out on the other thread, you are a contortionist, not disimilar to the convoluted I was moved to use earlier.

(a) Did Paul or any of the apostle ever refer categorically to any part of the LAW for Christian life?

Did they refer to the Law? YES!
Where they attempting to incorporate parts into NTC? NO!

The Law has been fulfilled. Which was one of the main planks of the Lords work. Judaizers such as yourself always seek recourse to the law to bind men to their man-made religion. As circumcision was the metaphor for the Mosaic law in the epistle to the Galatians, so the tithe is here.

Did I say basic earlier? Christian righteousness is never established by keeping laws or any other outward ritual. Keeping the Law justifies no one. Attempting to keep it in part compels one to keep it in whole and seeking righteousness by the law means one falls from grace.

That alone is reason enough for me to keep rebutting your C&C theology long after any semblance of integrity and coherence has vanished from your posts on this issue.

Is the Law good and holy and just? YES, are NTC bound by it or do they attain to righteousness by adhering to it? NO!

The misunderstanding around this is used by many religionists to bind the unknowing. Please desist. Like I have said your end game was apparent from the first whistle. To justify a man-made laity/clergy - follower/leader - split, said clergy being supported by taking money from the flock of God. Well described by Paul as using the gospel as a "cloak for covetousness".

Paul likened it to "building what he had previously destroyed". You are trying to call relevent what God has made redundant.

God bless
TV

@Sister Pilgrim.1

Like a lot of politicians, to the undiscerning eye/ear, you make a seemingly compelling case, and a very believable manifesto, but it simply does not bear scrutiny.

1.
Abraham. Tithed once. Not periodically, be that yearly, thrice-yearly, every three years. To make it a pre-law practice that somehow transcends the law and settles neatly into NTC worship is nowhere bourne out by scripture.

On an ongoing basis, to whom would Abraham have tithed? Or how would he otherwise have disposed of his tithe?

There is no record of Isaac, Jacob or any other Hebrew or Israelite tithing before the advent of the levitical priesthood and the accompanying law.

Who would Isaac have tithed to? What priesthood was in effect? If there were two orders of priesthood, it is evident that there are two shadows and one fulfilling type in Christ, and none during the time of Isaac or Jacob.

Why did Jacob try and covenant to tithe if there was an edict in place? Why not just repent and pledge observance of the already enacted command?

2.
Your ploy of using Epistilery writings about giving or collection for the needy to read as "tithe & offering" is particularly disingenous, as is your fallacious view of the NT commanding a salaried ministerial class and again trying to read that as being supported by giving, which of course you read as "tithe & offering".

3.
Failure to to see that all you have succeeded in doing is re-incarnating (a dirty word in Christian circles) the now redundant mediatory priesthood, priest and non-priest classes and the consequent supporting structures. Pure man-made religion, which God amply demonstrated in the OT would never suffice in approaching Him.

4.
You further descend into error and expose your traditionally biased reading of scripture when you ascribe law bound teaching to the Apostle Paul. Claiming that his referencing the Law of Moses was in fact his declaring it still valid. Of all NT writers, the Apostle Paul was most vehemently opposed to any recourse to the law of Moses and withstood Peter and called him a hypocrite when he did so, even at what was a relatively superficial level.

More evidence of doublespeak when you attempt to use Abraham to introduce the tithe and then sneakily resort to the law (and misacribe paul as teaching it) to establish it, when you scream lounder than anyone that tithe is not by law, and that is not your premise

Would you try and convince me that you are not at all acquainted with the thrust and import of Galatians about the error and danger of trying to marry ther Judaic law with NTC life?

How about this for straters;

Galatians
2:11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.

5.
More Gobbledy-gok when you claim that tithe does not have to be 10%. You at once render the whole concept of a tithe meaningless - if it's not compulsory, not 10%, and the poor don't have to pay, what are it's distinguishing features? - and try to label it an unmistakeable NTC imperative?

6.
Claiming that The Lord did not speak at all about the types of giving, is indicative of your error of trying to income stream them. He didn't, simply because there aren't any. Giving in the Body is driven by need (and secondarily to bless). Not for salaries, programs, projects or buildings, all of which only become relevent with the man-made religion of clergy and temples and man-made traditions - like no trousers for women - and a need to support such and keep them occupied.

You are so wrong, it's alarming, and more so because the unknowing could tread long in the path of your error and all the commitant doctinal confusion. For that reason alone, I will continue to make the effort to withstand you.

God bless
TV

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=39490.msg1397030#msg1397030 date=1187229852]@TV01,

If you have anything to share, I expected you could have done that. If you had nothing to offer, and would rather make a career of denoucing what is in the WORD, I only ask you to offer me the ONE VERSE where God has so commissioned you to do so.

I've said this again and again - if you don't believe in tithes, no worries. If you can't offer simple answers to the simple questions I offered you in the other thread, save whatever else is left of your emptiness. If neither suggestions appeal to you, please be my guest and go on trying to prove it is your birthright to denounce it without a mandate to do so.

Whatever else makes you restless will be served according as you invite.[/quote]I have shared at length, plainly stated my position and been willing to answer any questions posed. And I am more than happy to admit errors or stand corrected in part or in whole on any point in the discussion.

I have not denounced what is in the word, I have denounced the propagation of things not in the word as a means to bind and exploit the unknowing.

I notice your continued co-opting of scriptures that speak solely to freewill giving to mean "tithe & offering" and then building whole treatises around your untruths.

I am confident that Enigma will see through you or see you off in the "Essence of tithing " thread, so I haven't bothered to post, I'm just following, but your gall in misappropriating scripture purely to sustain the unsustainable still amazes me.

So once again. No one can teach tithing by law or according to the law or under law from the OT and make it binding on NT Christians.

It's at best a purely incidental and personal observation.

Anyone can see you have a vested traditional/denominational interest in maintaining the status quo of the totally false "professional/salaried clergy" abomination. So far you have declined to 'fess up. No need. It reeks to high heavens, and would be clear to a blind man in a mudslide.

God bless
TV

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=39490.msg1392698#msg1392698 date=1187131204]I'm so sorry for those who ALWAYS have to tie TITHES to the Law. That way, it's easier to argue AGAINST tithes because it usually boils down to the idea that since the Law is done away with, then TITHES are done away with as well.[/quote]At least on the point, it is evident that NTC do not have to tithe on that basis. Any other basis can be discussed on it's biblical merits


[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=39490.msg1392698#msg1392698 date=1187131204]What amazes me, however, is that people often fail to understand that TITHES predated the LAW!! The Law cannot nullify what it did not originate! And that is why people should rather ask God to show them WHAT prompted Abraham to give tithes WITHOUT the slightest hint of any LAW or COMMANDMENTS![/quote]Tithes predate Abraham, the Hebrews and the Israelites, so what? Circumcision also pre-dates the law. Again, so what? If you know of Abraham giving a tithe as a response to a prompt by God - which is relevent for NTC - pray tell.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=39490.msg1392698#msg1392698 date=1187131204]If you don't believe in tithes, no worries. But that should not be reason enough to castigate those who tithe, or disparage pastors and call them thieves and all sorts of despicable names! Those who castigate others are unwittingly displaying a haughty and rebellious spirit against the WORD.[/quote]Nobody is discussing this personally. Only the biblical basis - or lack thereoff - for it. Nobody is castigating those who do it, or disparaging those who teach it. But if one teaches tithing, one should be prepared to be questioned and to defend their position, as with any doctrine.
And presumably calling people haughty and rebellious is not to castigate or disparage?

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=39490.msg1392698#msg1392698 date=1187131204]The simple thing to do is seek to understand the core issues about tithing. If at the end of the day it is not clear, then no reason to call others names and all sorts. . or even go as far as denouncing it. I just simply would like to see where in the WORD God asked anyone to denounce tithing the way some of us are prone to do.[/quote]You that understand, pray share. If it is not clear to us - by your reckoning - please be a vessel for our enlightening. I denouce it on the basis of the law and can find no other basis except at best a personal thing. And although I would personally consider it somewhat immature, would not rail against individual liberty.

God bless
TV

Seun:
Hmm, sister pilgrim.1, the worth 'tithe' means 'tenth' which is the same as 'ten percent'.

True!

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=65998.msg1392759#msg1392759 date=1187132311]Lol, Seun. . I don't disparage that.[/quote]Don't you?

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=65998.msg1392759#msg1392759 date=1187132311]But what many people don't understand is that tithing is not merely 10% - it is MUCH MORE than that![/quote]It is or it isn't. If it's not 10%, it ceases to be a "tithe". So in effect you do disparage it!

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=65998.msg1392759#msg1392759 date=1187132311]I'll share why this is not so in time to come. [/quote]Yeah, right!

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1392567#msg1392567 date=1187128681]Let me resume by asking a simple question here:[/quote]That's is your preferred modus operandi; ask a seemingly "simple" question. But in truth and true to form, you are really setting the scene for you own - and glaringly obvious - traditional or denominational bias. Even if one answers the question - different to your prejudice - you'll just ride roughshod over it.

Never actually spell out a position for comment, but insinuate by slyly worded teasers that you possess some esoteric knowledge or understanding of scripture, when in fact your are sadly misled.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1392567#msg1392567 date=1187128681]What do we understand by this text:[/quote]You are not really interested in what we understand are you? It's just a poser to enable you to ram your position down everyone's throats.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1392567#msg1392567 date=1187128681]1 Cor. 9:13 & 14
"Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel."[/quote]The first part is a reference to the OT/Jewish worship form. The levitical Priesthood was primarily supported by the tithe.

The second part pertains to Christian practice. First note that it is those that "PREACH". This is in the sense of them being itinerant and unable to maintain a regular income providing activity as was Paul's circumstance and that of many labouring to fulfil the apostolic foundation of the church. Note, that when he could work, he did, and at a level far below his training and pedigree.

If anyone is engaged in a ministry that presents the same or similar circumstances, they should be supported at an appropriate level by the body.

Those who minister in local congregations should work like everyone else. That is the Lords charge. If they don't, or choose not to, it is not the congregations responsibility to support them. And in any event, not in any way different from any other member of the congregation who has physical needs.

There is no clergy/laity - leader/follower - split in NTC. There is no call for paid ministry in the local congreagation.

Should help nail the celebrity circuit of hirelings who roam from venue to venue with their "product led", "pseudo-Christianity" ~ ministry to "singles", "healing" "prosperity" etc.

If you do it for money - except in the rare circumstances as I outlined above - you're a hirleing or a 'ho.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1392567#msg1392567 date=1187128681]Study it carefully - you might find answers there.[/quote]Likewise.

God bless
TV

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=48083.msg1370297#msg1370297 date=1186588173]Christians have a civil responsibility to their political governments.[/quote]Did I say they didn't?

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=48083.msg1370297#msg1370297 date=1186588173]If they do not, that should be a 100% clear STAY OUT![/quote]Out of what exactly

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=48083.msg1370297#msg1370297 date=1186588173]And as such, we don't owe no civil or political government any tax - which would be contrary to what is stated in Romans 13.[/quote]Another convoluted submission. And I still haven't eaten. First things first my dear !

Daddy-Pastor

Politics and religion (man-made) are the cause of all the worlds conficts.

Listen carefully. The kind of person who gravitates towards the grubby world of politics is the same sort who finds a home in the murky waters of man-made religion.

They are brothers in arms and it was only ever a matter of time till it become open and has always been very clear to those who see. The ho' and the beast. What a lovely couple

Pastor-President

karli4nia:
Brother Tv

If you keep up this ecumenist clap-trap I ain't no brother of yours. You man pleaser! And spell my name right before I e-assault you.

karli4nia:
u lack clarity,with your cynical approach to a positve movement.

Ultimately we shall all see. Then clarity won't be an issue will it.

karli4nia:
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a step.

Like I said Syncretism next. Which holy book is that from? Who wants to journey with you on the train of heresy to spiritul perdition?

karli4nia:
All am basically against is we christians focusing more on our call and quiting the kind of player hating amongs us even with our differences.

We? You & who ?
Playa abi? Nonsense. A thinly veiled attempt at relevence. None of them & none of you are!
The original MOG-Slayer in da house! Wey dem?

If the focus was on God instead of various self-aggrandising blasphemers with "small man" syndrome, hell bent on forcing us to worship as they see fit, we'd have no denominational problems in the first place.

Oya, let me humour you. What do you suggest exactly?

1. Catholicism ~ After all, Pope benny seems to think non-Catholics are disqualified from the faith.

2. Pentecostalism ~ Which gives us the option of bad hair and clothes of the poorest imaginable taste or veneration of men (and women), which is little more than modern day temple worship with human mediators.

3. Anglicanism ~ I don't think anyone is sure exactly what that is?

4. Some formula based mixture of the above 9and the 30'000+ other denominations?

5. Ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

The Lord knows those who are His.

So once again HELL NO!

As you can see, Moses was way ahead of his time. The first man to have a BlackBerry !

OLAADEGBU:
Moses was not married to two wives at the same period , the Ethiopian woman (Cushite otherwise nubian precisely)

(I wonder how many lobbies I can upset with that one? Black, Jewish, Womens, etc )

The mixing of the Holy and the profane .

In this age of wholesale blasphemy, hereticism and preening man-made religious structures, the best you can come up with is ecumenism?

Presumably, syncretism is next on the agenda? Roll on one world religion. Actually, it's a great idea, get them all together then The Lord can consume them at once.

Every man to his tent.

Ecumenism ko? Owambe ni?

Religionist bunkum.

Starter for 10 anyone !

What's cookin'? TV is ravenous !

Analytical:
Hmmmhh!! I thought you two were discussing tithing! But I get confused the more, after all "the way of a man with a maid. . . who can understand?" No be me talk that one o, na Solomon (Prov 30 vs 18-19).

Abeg bro' don spoil my show . _{If we 'gree, maybe you can be best man and TayoD can give the sermon !}

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1350370#msg1350370 date=1186058947]I'm waiting on you to oblige me simple enough answers to the few questions I offered. But if that is not necessary because you would rather not, then I'll take some time over the weekend and post something more in addition to what I previously did. Fair enough?[/quote]Fair enough.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1350370#msg1350370 date=1186058947]I'll do so - no bother. Following the request above.[/quote]Fairer still.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1350370#msg1350370 date=1186058947]there are some others . . . kncok them twice over and let water gush from their heads - then I might put on my aprons! [/quote]No problem, consider it done. So what's for dinner ? _{And presumably I won't have to digest one of your lengthy tomes before I eat ?}

God Bless
TV

Morning Pilgrim.1,

Are you going to post something we can discuss, or are you trying to set some kind of record for a "meaningless words uttered before lunchtime"?

I'd just say for now that people should be encouraged to tithe. It is not presented as a LEGALISTICALLY MANDATED or COERCED exercise, or a COMPULSION for the Christian. You'd be simply amazed how God doesn't FORCE it upon His children, but yet declares it as part of our New Covenant worship. That is why I started off by asking just two simple questions to help us think on this:

Regards a statement in your post - #1067 - above, and particularly the part highlighted in red, would you be so kind as to explain in detail - and no we are not talking doctorate thesis ! - exactly how "God declares tithing as part of NCW"

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1349712#msg1349712 date=1186047444]I don't know - we don't share the same room! [/quote]What have I told you about women taking the lead ? If you are angling for a date, I suggest you show more Sarah and less Eve. By the way, can you cook ?

God bless
TV

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1348393#msg1348393 date=1185992561]Thank you for keeping it simple this time around.[/quote]Thank you. But that's at best a trite observation. In absolute terms, I always keep it simple. In relative terms - to you that is - I'm a paragon of simplicity, in pretty much every way !

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1348393#msg1348393 date=1185992561]I simply wanted to know what you see in the WORD; and not what you feel about the question.[/quote]Not really, your approach is one of loaded teasers. If the word was your concern, you would quite simply quote and expound it as you understand and let me respond. If you post questions, I'll respond to questions, if you post scripture I'll respond to scripture. Your monolectic approach means you always insist on framing the discussion on your own terms. And in a most harping, mean-spirited and supercillous way I might add  .

So your question re "types" says nothing to me about NTC life. But still I attempted to humour you and respond as posed, whilst at the same time outlining my position. If that displeases you, tough. Heat, kitchen my dear.

I see giving as primarily driven by need (and to bless). One does not say "I'm giving money - directly - to God in/as worship, just like one wouldn't slaughter a goat. I understand there are some who share their food with household idols. Tell me, do the idols eat it? So I don't think my use of the term "pagan" was far off the mark.

So Acts 17v25 is indeed core to what we are discussing. And you are being the queen of assertive denials to say otherwise.

Further John 4v24-25 introduces the concept of worshipping God in spirit and in truth. James 2:15 talks about ministering to those destitute of daily need; physically, not in word but in truth and in deed.

You yourself introduced this verse;
Hebrews 13:16 - But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

This is clearly saying that an act of kindness or sharing (communicating, giving) to others in need is considered a sacrifice. Is that directly to God? or is God the recipient of your "good turn". So if giving (or doing good to others) is worship, and is a sacrifice, what does it avail to attempt to classify it and tabulate associated benefits? Man-made religion at it's most dire !

Giving is indeed a worship response, but everything a NTC does out of love for and in obedience too God is. To try and validate or add import to tithing as a worship response is spin.

Your needless recouse to taxonomical giving is - and I repeat - mindlessly ritualistic at best. And no doubt cover to coerce the unaware amongst God's people to assume that giving to ministers is de rigeur and blessed without any consideration to context.

I guess I got out of the wrong side of bed this morning huh?

God bless
TV

@ Pilgrim;

You asked this;

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1347237#msg1347237 date=1185972663]1.
. . . that there are NO DISTINCTIONS in types of giving (nothing at all to distinguish them)?[/quote]And later this;

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg1348179#msg1348179 date=1185987179]The question is simple: Are there different types of giving, or all giving are the same?[/quote]To which I responded thus;

TV01:
Reasons, times, occassions, attitude even, all underpinned by need - or to a lesser degree to bless - but I don't see types or the need for them. Neither do I see that the types generate uniquely distinct blessings unavailed by those who do not give to type or not all the outlined types.

I have made it very clear, that I see need as the primary driver. I don't eliminate giving to bless, but I see precedence on the basis of need.

What is difficult about that ?

Acts 17:24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.

TV01:
I don't believe I said that. I said giving is worship, and responding to need is worship. I don't believe God is directly worshipped with material things.

For you to say v25 above has no baring on giving and how we worship God sounds like an assertive denial to me .

So, God is not worshipped with things. So to try and directly worship God with material things - a goat, wood, money - is at best mindlessly ritualistic and pagan. In as much as we worship God with our giving, it's through our response to need (or too bless). Happy now?

The rest of your last post was just rant. I'll excuse myself from responding.

God bless
TV