₦airaland Forum

RIP, the champ of theoretical physicist and a great atheist evangelist.... you propagate well man, sleep on bro , those whom you have mentor will surely miss you ......

BUMB

Mujtahida:
Does this accords with the nonduality of Hindu and Buddhist mystics? As in the unity of all things held in perfect harmony and balance including what we call evil. Is that the concept in ATR?

not really exactly, the concept of yoruba atr operate on a different SHIFT, we believe IN BOTH evil and good must exist and they are in accordance with each other YORUBA ATR believe that everything is good and bad. War is good for the people who win because they get the additional resources needed for survival, but bad for the losers, who end up with nothing. Good and bad are on different sides of the same coin, and one cannot exist without the other. so in holistic view , nothing is good , and nothing is bad except whatever man chooses for himself... AS THE SAYING GOES, ONE MAN FOOD IS ANOTHER MAN POISON ....

Emmanystone:
Sir, do Egbere and Ebora have English replicas? Asin, is there a term you can use to desceibe them so we the none Yoruba speaking can get along?

it is difficult translating some Yoruba terms directly to English, but we can settle on some statement for the sake of translation. WE CAN SETTLE ON INVISIBLE SPIRIT. assuming there is also a similar character of ebora and egbere in English cullture, we will have easily adopt it too..

Mujtahida:
Once again if not for the ebo (whether regarded as symbolic or not) I am comfortable with such a spiritual outlook on life. The black man is spiritually sick because an alien spirituality has been foisted on him but many continue along that diseased Road because they want to go to heaven. Very juvenile.

Is there heaven and hell in ATS (Yoruba)?

Fact is my concept of God is pagan but I detest anything fetish.

first my approach on this subject is purely philosophical and scientific . i do not stand on the shoulder of those who hold on to superstition......if ATR must get acceptance, then we must set the difference.... they are lot of superstition that are attached to this religion for so long and people are not willing to unlearn it. and this is the reason it was rejected by many... for example, HUMAN rituals can make you suddenly rich, egungun are directly from heaven.... and so many ridiculous assumption going on..... YORUBA ATR do not have the concept of hell, though Christianity try to manipulate it somehow into the bible and call it orun apadi... but this is not what atr teaches, according to atr the heaven is not in the same light of Christianity or Islam ... The Yoruba word "orun is a part of the dual aspect of the one world which is a union of the physical and spiritual. so when a person dies, they don't go to heaven but their spirit lives on thru you. They literally live in your blood. A part of their spirit eventually finds another genetic relative to reincarnate thru via blood/DNA in their family ..that is why Yoruba has name like yetunde, babatunde and the rest.... Yoruba concept of afterlife rely purely on reincarnation....


if you need an answer that is superstitious and less practical , obviously ,i am not the right person..

MuttleyLaff:
Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces;
anyone on whom it falls will be crushed."
- Matthew 21:44

Anyone who stumbles over you that stone will be broken to pieces,
and it will crush anyone it falls on."
- Matthew 21:44 NLT

And in their hands they shall bear you up,
lest at any time you dash your foot against a stone.
- Luke 4:11

There was no need for that, except that you're giving him too much credit
Be unmindful of Matthew 21:44 at your own peril

All you've written above is hogwash.
No one is denying the natural representation of Orisha. While we know that Osun is a water (h20) on the surface, there is more to it on the spirtual aspect when we dig more.
So you telling us that Egungun is simply man who hides under the veil brings to the point that you know absolutely nothing about ATS.

Simply tell us what ajogun is and their benevolent attribute to existence

Sir, pls take it easy, lets learn from both of you.
No need to be hash.I know FOLYKAZE,
and he is completely right, it is hogwash, plus mostly unashamed copy and paste, lifted word for word, from online content

What I found amusing,
was that, I immediately knew the post, which at the end of, as a frightener, he appended shadeyinka moniker to, was a "copy and paste"
because I recognised the post's content being from a website, I had a long time ago, previously bookmarked due to it being informative.
You know me, living in the Bible, doesnt prevent me travelling and/or go places

i personally take this an offence on my part. accusing me of intellectual dishonesty, ALL MY REFERENCES ARE BACK UP BY ODU ifa WHICH I MADE MENTION . I DO NOT HAVE A MONOPOLY OF IFA., it can be gotten online or wherever... the most important fact is it most be accurate.... Are you intentionally looking for one to attack... i do not do that online battle..

vaxx:
whaoo, i am not promising you a hundred percent perfect answer but i will do my best to give it a trial while i skip the ones yet to be understand for now......

that is my first statement on this thread... what do you mean as a frightener, you are indeed ridiculous. you just feel like undermine me right?

MuttleyLaff:
Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces;
anyone on whom it falls will be crushed."
- Matthew 21:44

Anyone who stumbles over you that stone will be broken to pieces,
and it will crush anyone it falls on."
- Matthew 21:44 NLT

And in their hands they shall bear you up,
lest at any time you dash your foot against a stone.
- Luke 4:11

There was no need for that, except that you're giving him too much credit
Be unmindful of Matthew 21:44 at your own peril

All you've written above is hogwash.
No one is denying the natural representation of Orisha. While we know that Osun is a water (h20) on the surface, there is more to it on the spirtual aspect when we dig more.
So you telling us that Egungun is simply man who hides under the veil brings to the point that you know absolutely nothing about ATS.

Simply tell us what ajogun is and their benevolent attribute to existence

Sir, pls take it easy, lets learn from both of you.
No need to be hash.I know FOLYKAZE,
and he is completely right, it is hogwash, plus mostly unashamed copy and paste, lifted word for word, from online content

What I found amusing,
was that, I immediately knew the post, which at the end of, as a frightener, he appended shadeyinka moniker to, was a "copy and paste"
because I recognised the post's content being from a website, I had a long time ago, previously bookmarked due to it being informative.
You know me, living in the Bible, doesnt prevent me travelling and/or go places

please how can i hold access to an in information that is purely not mine, you sound so ridiculous . do i claim to be the owner of the message.... i am person who back my point with references..... i do not hold odu ifa, i have to back it up with reference available which is online.... i trust its genuity and that is copy and paste it.... apart form it tell me how is my message not independent.. i am not an authority, is it not better for me to copy and paste an authority statement.... i am sorry you sound bitter ... there is no claim i made here without honoring the copyright.....

dayowunmi:
Wait... They were sponsored to go and study in UGANDA? hehehehe Orisirisi Uganda is worse than Nigeria nw! This is ridiculous. Never heard of any Ugandan University making waves in Africa

makerere university is by far rank better than any Nigeria university... nigeria university like UI has lost their old record

they were sent to receive a bachelor degree, but ended up with a couple degree

shadeyinka:
You called my name like one who just concluded an incantation.

I hope it is well. My light is His reflection. Untouchable, unlockable, un-lookable and unquenchable! Its a light that slices the mountains and divides the seas...

lol, i only called your attention to the quote, and anyway am not a traditionalist with superstition, you made me break my promise when i said this will be my last reply .... do you even know you have also recited incarnation too but only in English

shadeyinka:
There isn't a contest to who Olodumare is. The Creator, the Almighty, the All knowing, All Powerful Deity.

The Yoruba's will say Orisha bi Olorun 'o si.

In other words there is no comparison between Olodumare and any Orisa.

PRESENT ANY FACT THAT YORUBA ATR REFER TO OSUN, OGUN, SHANGO AS OLODUMARE...

I think I have answered this question.
Yoruba ATR does not refer to any Orisa as Olodumare, so there is no fact against that.

I have stated why the prof is wrong, haven't I?
She said "Orisas are not gods but equivalent to saints in Christianity". And I have shown that Orisas are personalities hence gods.

She said Yoruba orishas are human:
I have shown that some are not human like Yemoja, Ol'okun etc

Now to the definition of gods: you say


In the light of your definition, doesn't
Aje have power over peoples wealth?
We pray: " Aje a gbe yin o!"

Osun have the power to give children

Ogun has the power to kill those who lie while swearing to him

These three falls into power over human nature or fortune.

Hence Orisas are by your definition gods.

Or,
Maybe I am not clear by what you mean by "multitude of beings"

shadeyinka, i am sorry this will be my last post to you....
orisha bi olrun ko si , good words.. even in metaphorical statement, the literal meaning stills hold that there is no DEITY LIKE GOD which conclude olorun is unique and absolute..... as i made mention earlier, olorun are part of the secondary names of GOD.. the real name is olodumare.. try and read my post with an open heart and not for the purpose of debating... and again read the odu ifa i quote you on.

Your rebuttal to the prof challenge is weak, how? with over 400 orishas , there is more than enough evidence that majority of this orisha has earthly background.... if the myth surrounding iyemoja and olokun remain unverified for now, it those not mean it invalidate the claim of the prof, i postulate that obatala and iyemoja were the first creature ( i stand to be corrected)since they are consider the father and mother of all orishas according to yoruba ATR.... i will seek knowledge about this concept and get back to you (maybe in my my next topic).... objectively the prof point remain very valid because her approach is very logical and support available information... if orunmila who is regard has ibikeji olodumare(second in command to olodumare) has earthly parent.... then it tells that the background of the remain known orisha cannot be entirely mythical and therefore buttress the point of the prof.

when people say aje a gbe yin. they are not seeing aje as a being who will help the merchandiser in his/her business.... they are literally telling the merchandiser that his /her struggle will benefit her..

osun olomoyoyo(osun mother of plenty children) does not have the power to give children because she does not create one, she can only request from olodumare on behalf devotee for children.. when osun was on earth, she herself was barren, despite being surrounded by lots of children, she waited and waited yet no baby, she consult ifa, it was explained to her that she will be bless by plenty children, yet she did not born, after much awaited time and frustration from her fellow iyawo who later become the river in iwo today and her husband, it is beloved she turn to water.... symbolically it become orisha and today lots of children venerate her... it is this love she has for children when she was alive that people still invoke on her energies to bring forth children.... you can only have babies thru sex when olodumare permit it... osun songs goes like this'' mo ti wede, moti wede, ori je ro omo mi we(i have bath an iron, i have birth an iron, my destiny let me see my child to birth) it is your akunleyan that matter.


ogun those not practically kills ..No mystical gun will appear to shut you down.... law of karma is so heavily presented in YORUBA ATR... a robber caught in the process of robbing and was shut down by gun is believed to be killed by ogun, symbolically they are right because guns are made of iron which represent ogun, if a car accident occur, it is believed those who died in the car are killed by ogun , they are also right symbolically because they die through what symbolically represent ogun... i can see you find it difficult to separate reality from superstition. i understand... hence orisha by definition are not god because they do not qualify to be in position of olodumare....they are simply a channel between human and GOD...


Gods are plural terms, orisha are also in plural terms, olodumare iis a term coined for one single source..

vaxx:
olodumare has a being is without gender, but he is depicted as a single source, will it not make sense if the we or he is use.....

practically no one has seen olodumare including the orisha.... apart from orunmila who saw his buttocks lol, when he is in human form Oriunmila see a part of his buttocks after a
gigantic sacrifice at the sea.

In odu ifa Osa Otura
Ifa reavel how Olodumare reavel is buttock to orumila
Ifa said in Osa Otura
A ki ri idi okun
A ki ri Idi Osa
A ki ri idi Olodumare
Sugbon Eni to ba ko sinu omi
Ni o mon ibi ti omi mu ni de
Awon to ba ke ibosi ni won feju Yan Yan soke
Difa fun Orunmila
Nijo ti yio lo re ridi Olodumare
Ebo ni won ko Kara ale ko mase
Woni eti okun ni ko gbe ebo lo
Orunmila gbe ebo odi eti okun
Bi o se niki ki o gbe ebo sile lo wo Olodumare to bora le ni ihihoho
Olodumare ni iwo Orunmila?
Orunmila si dahun pe repo
Olodumare nje o ridi mi bayii ?
Orunmila ni ibi sikiti ibadi nikan na ni mori
Olodumare ni oda to ba je be ko si ohun ti o ko ni ridi mon laye
Orunmila ba n jo
I ba n you
Oni ohun pelu eledumare egbarigba.
TRANSLATION
No one unravel the mystery of the ocean
No one unravel the mystery of the sea
No one unravel they mystery of Olodumare

It one who immersed himself in the river
That knows the depth of the river
It is one who cry out for assistance
That will open his eye very wide to the sky
Ifa divination reading was performed for Orunmila
When ifa want see the buttocks of Olodumare
He ask will I discovered Olodumare secrets ,everything he asked ?
Orunmila was instructed to offer sacrifice
But he should take the sacrifice to the sea
As he was about to place it at the beach
He saw Olodumare put off his garment
He saw the buttocks

Because Olodumare was stark Unclad and was in human image
Olodumare ask Orunmila did you see me?
Orunmila answer yes
I only see plump part of your buttock
Olodumare then said since you see my buttocks
There is nothing on earth that you will not be able to unravel again
Orumila was dancing and very happy
so from this verse we can now deduce tha Olodumare is an invisible entity. You can communicate with him by using orisha of your choice as intermediary. OLODUMARE SELECT WHOMEVER HE WANT

shadeyinka

shadeyinka:
Thanks bro!
I think it is one thing to make an assertion but it is another to justify them.

Vaxx will want us to believe the monotheistic nature of the Yoruba ATR but every available fact contradict it.
My paternal grand mum was an Osun devotee, its difficult for me to believe that Yoruba's don't pray to their gods.

He would also want us to believe that Orishas are energies, unfortunately he can't justify it. For energies who can hear prayers are not energies but personalities.

if your paternal grandmum is still alive, seek her attention in what i post to you...do not believe in what i say, carry out your investigation.... we are not living in superstition world... and please be practical in your approach ... i am given you attention because i saw a sense of calmness in you, this might be my last reply as some already declare to be more knowledgeable than i do which i accept.. i do not claim the perfect answer, though i will still give you the honor to reply you, if there is need.

shadeyinka:
Sorry if it sounded like I am insulting the Eminent Professor, buy I am certainly not.

I am just querying some of her points: raising objections. Objections are valid ways of learning when a counter to the objections are provided.

I remember in primary school when we just learned when to use 'a' or 'an' as a prefix to a noun. Our teacher came one day to say 'a European' and we all protested that it should be 'an European'. He had to give us evidences and convincing arguments before we were convinced.

That is what I am doing. The Prof said some things against my preconceived notion hence , I need a superior counter argument to satisfy me. I don't think this has been done except a repetition of your position and an appeal to the fact that Professors cannot be wrong.

I am sure that the problem is our different definition of the term gods.

We know who Olodumare is: the Almighty, The Creator, God

What/Who do you call gods?

The bone of contention is that (your claim)
1. Orisas are not gods
2. Orisas used to be humans (hence equivalent to saints)

you made me go in cycle, after giving explanation on my own, i realized you think i am talking base on my center notion to ''purify'' Yoruba ATR as you claim.... therefore i need to bring in an authority to buttress my point. so that at least you will have an idea of where i am coming from....

Despite, repeating myself, i still back it up with new fact, please kindly read the post again with open mind and raised objections in it as you claim you did to your primary school teacher...

for you to say the professor theory is wrong, you will have to bring a counter evidence that will defeat her stands... she of course raised the challenged, that is what academia do.... they do give fact with evidence.... and the challenge is still open... PRESENT ANY FACT THAT YORUBA ATR REFER TO OSUN, OGUN, SHANGO AS OLODUMARE.... unless the challenge is defeated, but as for now the prof theory remain the most valid conclusion...

gods in a western sense are simply MULTIPLE of being consider to have power over human nature or fortune..... that is the western sense, now to the yoruba concept, we do not have multiple of being with that regard, only being capable of having power over human nature and fortune is Olodumare.... the difference you should derived now is to note that olodumare is not in multiple... orisha are in multiple, therefore it invalidate the logic and the truth in calling orisha god according to yoruba morphology .

Beside, orisha has gender......we know orunmila to be man, we known osun to be female.... but olodumare has no gender, he is believe to be the only supreme creator of earth and in heaven, acknowledged by all the orisha as the Head to whom all authority belongs and all allegiance is due. . . His status of supremacy is absolute. Things happen when He approves, things do not come to pass if He disapproves. In worship, the Yoruba holds Him ultimately First and Last; in man's daily life, He has the ultimate pre-eminence. all this article of faith invalidate the chance of orisha to be called god..... i will call your attention to one odu ifa that i sent to cutemadridista

shadeyinka:
I did not mean to insult the Prof.
I am not insinuating that she isnt an authority in her field.
BUT
Shes human isnt she?
And as humans, its normal to be biased. like Christian Scientists are biased by the bible in interpreting some scientific facts which relate to creation or the origin of the Universe.

Yorubas don't ever mix up the other gods with Eledumare. Never!
There is a difference between (capital) God and (small) god. And the Yorubas recognize that so much.

g[/b]ods are NEVER small [b]G[/b]ods or Little [b]G[/b]ods (Olorun ke ke ke) with the Yorubas.



Of course we know that Yorubas dont do that. The orishas are distinct from Olodumare.
The Orisha serve Eledumares purpose on the earth

Even if she says Orishas are equivalent to Angels, they would still be [b]gods


maybe, you should define the meaning "god"?

Our definition of gods seems very different:
For me gods are personalities (living beings) worshiped by human being
It doesn't matter if the living beings are Physical or Spiritual.
It doesn't matter if they are living or dead
As long as they are "persons", they are gods.

If we speak to them and we expect them to hear us, they are personalities



Check the bolded.
Yemoja is a godess




My point with yemoja are two
1. Yemoja is a personality (she has at least one child - Olokun)
2. Yemoja is NOT human ( i stand to be corrected)

So are Esu and Olokun

Hence, Yemoja or Esu or Olokun cannot be equivalent to the Catholics Saints as proposed by the Eminent Professor

If they are not saints, who are they if not gods!

As said before Orisha is NOT small Eledumare!

you just insult the prof by saying, she is speaking half truth, it indirectly means she has half knowledge of what she claims to be an authority on.... it is a serious offence to be bias in any academic discipline, in fact your authority can be revoked when your claims is objectively defeated.... I am surprised to read Christian scientist can be bias on important subject, that is a big blow on the face of christanity, and i found it as a shame to them and that is intellectual dishonesty. prof sophie is well known figure , a simple goggle search will tell you more about her.....

for the last time, orishas are not gods, i have explained the concept of God and orisha on this thread earlier, but i will be doing it again to honor you. in Ifa monotheistic, we believe in a single creative force known as Olodumare. The Universe in it’s entirety springs from that single source. Unlike the Orisa, Olodumare is not an energy but rather a consciousness. A consciousness big enough to encompass the entire of creation. Everything we know is part of Olodumare, as is everything we are yet to discover. according to yoruba cosmology, every life form or element of nature has a life meaning everything is an energy but inanimate and animate object....

orisha are simply the channel will use to reach olodumare, they are not smaller gods. do not treat Yoruba tradition in a western sense. only one God is recognized in yoruba tradition and he s known as olodumare, olodumare may be given many names like :Eledumare, Eleda, Olorun, olofin orun, Adeda, Aseda, Alase, etc. The list is endless. mean same thing as Olodumare because we are just using different name to refer to one entity. But Olodumare is the real yoruba name for God and all others names Are secondary to Olodumare. olodumare is spell like this olo- du- to mare . (THAT IS AN ENTITY THAT IS SO ENORMOUS OR BIG YET WE CAN NOT ASCERTAIN IT LOCATION )Odu mean a very big clay pot. while mare means something we are not ascertain literarilly... but the deeper meaning goes like this, THE OWNER OF CONTAINER OF CREATION AND EVERLASTING BLESSING...All these definitions are both acceptable.

ofcourse , orisha is wrongly translated as gods but that is a grammatical blunder on the side of the english translator , not the yoruba language itself..... the word is ''oluwa'' i am sure you know the application of this word, in yoruba society, your husband can be term oluwa ,A slave can call his master oluwa, kings and powerful men in society are referred as oluwa. they can never be refer as olodumare.. oluwa simply means en ti o ni mi( the one whose owns me) it is not the same with adeda( the creator)in fact it is apply as secondry name of olodumare. just like my lord is differ from my GOD.


the myth behind yemoja is so much that it may be difficult to know which one is correct. as you know, the religion is not documented properly like Christianity and islam. what are available are mostly inn form of oral literature that is pass down from one generation to the olders.... but we can hold the truth from the saying of the people who venerate this orisha .... iyemoja is the mother of all orisha... obatala is the father of all orisha........ that is what i can tell for now

shadeyinka:
We both know that not a single shrine or ojubo exist for Olodumare. Olodumare is to big to be approached. That is why the Yoruba's go through the smaller gods.

The only Yoruba god that may be referred to as a force is Iku. Iku (death) is not worshiped, neither is there any shrine for Iku.

The Professor Mrs tried but she is telling half truth.

Let's start with this:
1. Yemoja is supposed to be the mother of Ol'okun. Tell me , if both of them used to be human, tell me where they came from and what they did to be deified?
2. Ol'okun is another!

3. Esu Elegbara:
Was he also a deified human?

4. Obatala:
Supposed second son of oluorun(if I am not mistaking). Was he also formally human

Oh yes!
Others like Sango, Oya, Osun etc were formally human and if you like, you may even equate them to saints however the three listed above are not in that same category, hence they are fully gods.

So, you can see why I insist that the Yoruba's worship several gods even though they recognize the Almighty God called Eledumare or Oluorun(Ol'orun).

Since you cannot accept the prof academical prowess on the matter, i will not be taking you serious too. she is an authority, well known on the new coined subject AFRICAN PHILOSOPHY... i think you need to learn much about her......it is seriously an insult to the prof for you to say she is speaking half truth.... she challenged peoople like you in the video... she said provide where the yoruba identify sango, ogun and obatala and the rest as olodumare? i will be awaiting your response on it...

Again there is nothing like smaller gods in yoruba ATR, No yoruba literature or contemporary language proves that orisha are known as olorun kekere, .....literally Olodumare has no shrine of his own, but he is worshiped in any form of shrines that is of your choice. it is not limited to one shrine, that will defeat the yoruba understanding of giving meanings to every natural element, an osun devotee understand beauty of God through the power of imagination that are associated with joy and beauty in form of visual art and the use of mirror . TO the devotee, she is is the symbolical object of all things that evoke true beauty also with obatala that is represented by white clean cloth which also symbolized purity and cleanliness.... all these gives each devotee their line of belonging so that this imagination can be manifested into physical world... therefore dedicating a shrine for olodumare alone will practically defeat this objective .


ok , i have spoken about esu, so i will not be repeating myself....

Yemoja is the orisha of trance in IFA:This trance is symbolized by the currents of the river, for which Yemoja is associated. The trance state is defined as the state where your consciousness has stepped aside so that the subconscious rises to lead your conscious state. whenever you are doing something without thinking about it for example , driving a car, riding a bike or walking, etc, is trance. so devotee acknoweldge the subconscious importance. so directly, the trance state of Yemoja is most expressed thru things you do out of habit. It is your habits that determine your success or failure in life. It is only when you are in control of your habits that you can then direct your trance to give birth to a multitude of offspring (symbolized by the fish because of its multitude of offspring. Hence Yemoja's name means "Mother of Fishes". there are many literature surronding how yemoja come on board, but to be specefic, i shall take you through the poems of those who venerate the orisha. it goes like this

Mo juba awo Yemoja.

Iwo ni Ayaba Iya.

Iwo ni Iya Orisha.

Iwo ni Inu Iye Odidi.

Iwo ni Ifihan Ti Abo Ase.

Iwo ni Inu Aiye.

Iwo ni Orisha Obinrin Okun Nla ati Odo.

Iwo ni Oluwa Awo Ti Abo Ipilese.



I humble myself before the mystery of Yemoja.

You are the Queen of Mothers.

You are the Mother of the Orisha.

You are the Womb of all Life.

You are the Feminine Manifestation of the Ase.

You are the Womb of the World.

You are the Goddess of the Oceans and Rivers.

You are the Owner of the Mystery of the Feminine Principle.

shadeyinka:
I think you are bent on forcing new definitions in order to "purify" the thoughts and knowledge about the Yoruba ATR.

Orisa are deities who are worshiped by the Yoruba's
Deities are non other than gods because they are worshiped.

We have Oju'bo (a place to sacrifice/worship) Ogun. Every sacrifice I know is to a god.

I know you would havebloved to redefine Orisa as "selected heads- literal) but no! Orisa does not mean selected heads. Yoruba is a tonal language and as such Orisa (do do do) does not mean Orisa (re mi do). They mean different things.

You saying that Yoruba's don't have gods but orisa is akin to saying that Yoruba's don't get angry they only can Bi'nu.

I think the Yoruba gods are just like the Greek gods. Not just energy fields or force. Some pure humans, some a hybrid between humans and gods and some are gods , from Zeus himself

if trying to be practical and honest means ''purify'' to you then i cannot fight it out.... orisha are consider to be intermediaries between men and GOD.The veneration of orisha helps their follower to reach supreme source...AKA olodumare...so can you please educate us on the true definition of orisha? if my literally meaning is unacceptable to you , orisha is not translated to anything like olodumare ... i am sure you aware...

let me tell you about ojubo..... ojubo is simply a symbolic focal point... we are not worshipping the sculptures in them nor the shrine . They are just visual focal points.

We only worship the true God, Olodumare. He is not a sculpture or a shrine. He is the source of the universe itself.

you are bringing your own version of Yoruba GOD now. An hybrid between human and GOD is strange to yoruba concept... this is your own assertion

please try and wth this video, she is an authority on the subject( prof sophie oluwole )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=025BvqyFyTQ

CuteMadridista:
Honestly speaking, I never made the thread with the intention of setting you up. I never called Folykaze nor posted a link to this thread anywhere

Please from now on I'll advice you give whatever answer you want to give and move on to the next question. No need for arguments and if someone has a different answer, let him/her give his/hers too and move to the next question. You guys are talking to dummies as far as ATR is concerned so these arguments would actually lead nowhere as the dummies can't know who's really right or wrong

what I see happening between both of you is akin to 2 professors arguing which is true between A theory and B theory of time in an audience comprising of 5 year olds

Let's stop the arguments and give whatever answers we want to give then move to next question

NB: I haven't posted here since cuz I like taking my time to read and digest your replies carefully which is why I said this thread would last very long

the subject iis very difficult because it was not documented unlike other religion which has its own books... most of what people known are from oral literature..... that is why it is better to argue on what is truly practical in the nature of reality, intuition and logic... i will never embrace superstition.. never ..... i stay in the west , and i realize most Yoruba adherent seriously still lives with superstition ....

shadeyinka:
Yes!, Egungun may be symbolic yet real. The human personality behind the Egungun is supposed to be possessed by the spirits of the ancestor (ara orun). So, basically, an Egungun is from the spirit realm.

There was a similar symbolism my Father talked to me about. This happened last almost 80 years ago from my home town Oko. It was an assembly of men from all over the Yoruba land and they all go on a journey to Orun . During their departure, they each will have a fire built for them. Anyone whose fire dies (for the duration of the journey which usually is several weeks) dies (doesn't return).

Did they really go to the spiritual realm? Was it a cleansing festival where judgement is served to the "troubles of each community"? But to everyone, Oko re Orun/ Yoruba re Orun! (Oko went to Heaven/ Yoruba went to Heaven- literal translation)

yes it is real, because the veneration of the ancestors (Egungun) is central to Orisa spirituality. However, the superstitious that come with it , is what i am separating like doing rituals on an altar and thinking egungun are actually from heaven is the basic veneration. and If you don't go further than that, the Egungun will be insulted or the veneration is uncompleted,The true veneration of the Egungun is to perpetuate their name and deeds into the present. i like your beautiful story, it shows you actually get how symbolism play a vital role in yoruba ATR...perhaps if you still have a dad or someone knowledgeable on the subject, you can compare what i am saying with what he is saying..... expecting more question from you ....

shadeyinka:
I think you are confusing me here. You seem to be saying that none of the Yoruba gods exist as entities/personalities but symbolic representations( especially with respect to the Agoguns).

But, this seem to be against reality for in the case of "Begun Sango" (possession by sangos spirit), there is nothing symbolic about it. Sango actually possesses the adherent.

Hence, I find it difficult seeing everything in terms of symbolic representation. I think Agoguns are real spiritual emissaries of the real spiritual Esu.

I know that you are trying hard not to "demonize" the Yoruba gods.

it should be noted that yoruba do not have gods but orisha, orisha do not simply means gods, the best acceptable translation shouild be energy or force.... All orisha were human who once live on earth, for example orunmila is from oke igbeti in osun state , he has a wife name apatebi and likewise sango who is a son to aganju ..... yoruba traditionally follow a symbolically format like most religion, we represent most of the universal element with object associate with this orisha when they were practically living in form of human.... for example ogun was known as hunter who is very good with the use of iron and likewise sango was known with his use of fire. all these element they made use were known for are what we use to symbolically represent them... with the ajogun case i will employ you to seek knowledge outside this forum for more learning since you were unable to see logic and truth from my position... i cannot force you to accept it....

Again, yoruba do not have gods but orisha ..... it is time we separate truth from falsehood.... it is time will separate superstition from reality.... that is my aim on this subject.....

vaxx:
shadeyinka, i guess you are looking for similarities beween the yoruba ATR and Christianity faith.somehow we are resemble , in fact our faith also has a resemblance of islamic teaching with other known religion in ATR every soul has access to Olodumare by using adura, iwa (character), isera (fasting), ibewe (petitions/requests), igbekele ninu olodumare (unshakable trust in God), ebo riru see what odu iretekanran says:

IRETE OKANRAN, LO DIFA FUN ORUNMILA BABA AGBONMIREGUN NI OJO TI GBOGBO AWO FI PADE SILE OLU-AWO, IFA SO WIPE KI ORUNMILA KI ONI ISERA, KI O GBAWE SULE LONI, KIO LE BORI OTA, KI O SI REYIN OLODI, ORUNMILA GBO, O GBAWE, OGBADURA, O SINI SERA, LOJO NAA NI ORUNMILA BORI AWON ONISE IBI TI O FE SEKU PA ORUNMILA, O SI REYIN ODI.

The meaning of this Odu is:

Irete Okanran made divination for Orunmila, Baba Agbonniregun on the day when all the sons of the secret (Babalawos) were gathering in the house of the chief diviner. Irete Okanran advised Orunmila to make a fast and engage in prayer the whole day, to not eat or drink anything at the gathering. He would do this in order to gain victory over his enemies and those adversaries conspiring against him. He heard the advice and did as prescribed. He fasted and prayed until the day dawned and as a consequence he conquered adversities and gained victory over his enemies.

TO, those who are interested in knowing the truth, may extract this copy and seek from a known babalawo in their area to ascertain how true it is the quote....and they sure endeavor to get back to us d d .... cutemadridista , you actually let me see this thread as a set up which i am very disappointed .i am still willing to honor those people who will not see this discussion as a gateway to cause online bullying or intellectual dishonest.

why will any sane country negotiate with criminals, where on earth is it done apart from our so call giant of africa.... even the USA will copy so much will never try that option, they will rather fortified the arsenal this useless criminal are using, or are they telling us the boko haram are technically well equipped than our combatant army? why should we struck a deal with our sworn enemy? this is totally an embarrassment to all our securities forces and likewise i do not want to agree that fulani herdsmen were really the one causing current damages, where on earth will ordinary cattle shepherd got Ak47 worth 3 to 4 million naira,or who will trained them how to shoot, shooting is not as easy as we think, it might take you off balance if the required skills is limited... am sure this herdsmen are not the fulani but the same boko haream.

shadeyinka, i guess you are looking for similarities beween the yoruba ATR and Christianity faith.somehow we are resemble , in fact our faith also has a resemblance of islamic teaching with other known religion in ATR every soul has access to Olodumare by using adura, iwa (character), isera (fasting), ibewe (petitions/requests), igbekele ninu olodumare (unshakable trust in God), ebo riru see what odu iretekanran says:

IRETE OKANRAN, LO DIFA FUN ORUNMILA BABA AGBONMIREGUN NI OJO TI GBOGBO AWO FI PADE SILE OLU-AWO, IFA SO WIPE KI ORUNMILA KI ONI ISERA, KI O GBAWE SULE LONI, KIO LE BORI OTA, KI O SI REYIN OLODI, ORUNMILA GBO, O GBAWE, OGBADURA, O SINI SERA, LOJO NAA NI ORUNMILA BORI AWON ONISE IBI TI O FE SEKU PA ORUNMILA, O SI REYIN ODI.

The meaning of this Odu is:

Irete Okanran made divination for Orunmila, Baba Agbonniregun on the day when all the sons of the secret (Babalawos) were gathering in the house of the chief diviner. Irete Okanran advised Orunmila to make a fast and engage in prayer the whole day, to not eat or drink anything at the gathering. He would do this in order to gain victory over his enemies and those adversaries conspiring against him. He heard the advice and did as prescribed. He fasted and prayed until the day dawned and as a consequence he conquered adversities and gained victory over his enemies.

hmabdool:
wetin kon konsan u...u brain might need a factory reset

faceless forum has given you the liberty to show the world how you lost home training...right

shadeyinka:
If I understand you
You are saying that: when a person has a problem (caused by Ajogun)
1. A divination is made through IFA to ascertain the nature of the malevolent spirit and the solution required
2. The solution may require
a. A change of habit/character
b. A sacrifice (appeasement)
c. Prayers ( to whom? The Ajogun?)
3. The Ajogun isn't forced out.

If these are correct, can you confirm that what Christians call demons are what the Yoruba ATR call Ajogun (emissaries of Esu)?

If Ajoguns are not demons, what are the Yoruba equivalence for Demons?

The Yoruba Bible will refer to Demons as Emi Esu (spirits of Esu): which I think means the Ajogun. How true is this?
your
Thanks

No, do not misinterpret me, i never said human problem are caused by ajagun, ajagun and his war lord are symbolical representation of negative force... they are as well important in Yoruba cosmology.... you cannot blame your predicament on someone or anything else because olodumare give us the ase(sango) to trancend every obstacle, and if we have not transcended it, it is because you have failed to make the right decision at the crossroad.... esu is simply the decision/indecision you make not a demons as the Yoruba bible dictate it .so a force to change is required...

prayers are offer to olodumare thru orisha, all human concept of negative force are created by olodumare including death..... yoruba do not have the concept of demons ....

FeelDeMusic:
Well, it's by a woman named Deidre Prescod. She's from Trinidad, and she got initiated into the Ifa religion in Tobago I believe. The book basically describes this, as well as her time spent in Nigeria climbing the Ifa chain, if you will... she's now an iyanifa and reads odu.. the book details a whole bunch of odu and the proper ebo for them, it also details the Yoruba belief system and what everything means, it really doesn't say much about ebo in general like what you explained, as Orisa don't eat the ebo or do anything with them... it didn't mention that. It talked about manifestations of Orisa, like one woman could take on the personality of Olokun and another could take on the personality of Sango.

interesting

FeelDeMusic:
Y'all, check this book out:
https://www.amazon.com/Letters-Nigeria-Reflections-Ifa-Initiate/dp/152131652X
Has anyone read this before? If not I recommend CuteMadridista check it out. To me it's very informative....

educate us a little on what you read there

CuteMadridista:
The "We" there shows they were selected by more than one being, who are those that do this selections? are they humans? and how does one become an orisha? is it destined by Olodumare or is there some works a human would to to become selected?

olodumare has a being is without gender, but he is depicted as a single source, will it not make sense if the we or he is use.....

practically no one has seen olodumare including the orisha.... apart from orunmila who saw his buttocks lol, when he is in human form Oriunmila see a part of his buttocks after a
gigantic sacrifice at the sea.

In odu ifa Osa Otura
Ifa reavel how Olodumare reavel is buttock to orumila
Ifa said in Osa Otura
A ki ri idi okun
A ki ri Idi Osa
A ki ri idi Olodumare
Sugbon Eni to ba ko sinu omi
Ni o mon ibi ti omi mu ni de
Awon to ba ke ibosi ni won feju Yan Yan soke
Difa fun Orunmila
Nijo ti yio lo re ridi Olodumare
Ebo ni won ko Kara ale ko mase
Woni eti okun ni ko gbe ebo lo
Orunmila gbe ebo odi eti okun
Bi o se niki ki o gbe ebo sile lo wo Olodumare to bora le ni ihihoho
Olodumare ni iwo Orunmila?
Orunmila si dahun pe repo
Olodumare nje o ridi mi bayii ?
Orunmila ni ibi sikiti ibadi nikan na ni mori
Olodumare ni oda to ba je be ko si ohun ti o ko ni ridi mon laye
Orunmila ba n jo
I ba n you
Oni ohun pelu eledumare egbarigba.
TRANSLATION
No one unravel the mystery of the ocean
No one unravel the mystery of the sea
No one unravel they mystery of Olodumare

It one who immersed himself in the river
That knows the depth of the river
It is one who cry out for assistance
That will open his eye very wide to the sky
Ifa divination reading was performed for Orunmila
When ifa want see the buttocks of Olodumare
He ask will I discovered Olodumare secrets ,everything he asked ?
Orunmila was instructed to offer sacrifice
But he should take the sacrifice to the sea
As he was about to place it at the beach
He saw Olodumare put off his garment
He saw the buttocks

Because Olodumare was stark Unclad and was in human image
Olodumare ask Orunmila did you see me?
Orunmila answer yes
I only see plump part of your buttock
Olodumare then said since you see my buttocks
There is nothing on earth that you will not be able to unravel again
Orumila was dancing and very happy
so from this verse we can now deduce tha Olodumare is an invisible entity. You can communicate with him by using orisha of your choice as intermediary. OLODUMARE SELECT WHOMEVER HE WANT

CuteMadridista:
Let's be charitable with each other please, each person should state his answer and we move to the next one

ATR doesn't have a Holy spirit that Christians claim communicates to every Christian so its okay if there are differences amongst ATR believers

people understanding of the faith is very superstitious , even the babalawos that knows the truth are not helping matters but enlightenment has come into it now, it is fast growing in the west particularly in the USA ..... finally when it is developed, the superstition will be separable from the reality. how will you feel, if you have been feed that egungun were really from heaven but you suddenly saw one being unmask at oja oba which happens to be your friend ? and the book i told you about, that is what i want to address.... this is a computer generation....brainwashing is a sin in my dictionary

vaxx:
yoruba traditional religion is monotheistic , there are no several gods in yoruba tradition, what we have is simply orisha when you put it into Yoruba syllable, it is spell like this... ori- ti- a- sha(meaning, the head we specifically selected)traditionally our believe system is characterized by a deep sense of the interdependence of all life. “Every life form and element of Nature has an inner soul force – including rivers, rocks, clouds, metals, flowers, thunder, and the wind. These natural energies that comprise
are symbolically represented by the orisha. most of the orisha were once with us... for example. orunmila is from oke igbeti , he has a wife known as apetebi likewise sango the son of aganju and so many more of them that has earthly biological background like i and you.

To those who may want to know the reasons yoruba ATR IS MONOTHESTIC instead of deism, this is my reply.....

Another semi educated KING. he himself is giving away his four father throne. his linage to new set of people who will turn iwo town to little illorin...... the funniest part is, he himself may not be a praying Muslim....

vaxx:
He is not getting it that way, he is seeing ajogun as supernatural being with other opposite of life as being on their own..... forgetting that , yoruba ATR uses an expression called symbolical format... that is why we represent egungun as an ancestor... egungun are simply human being who hide under the cover of a mask... they are just symbolical representation , yoruba also uses stones to represent esu, iron to represent ogun, thunder to represent shango etc...

cutemadridista how do understand this, is there any problems with been sincere while writing. i am trying as much as possible to separate superstition from reality.....that is only what i did here