₦airaland Forum

tintingz:
Not because of the supernatural attached to him, the thing is it can not be proven just like Perseus doing wonders on Earth cannot be proven or Sango performing wonders on earth cannot be proven.

The historians agree there are myths attached to the person of Jesus.

you are saying the same thing with different tongue,TO be able to prove the wonders done by the person of jesus is another thing, to be able to prove the existence of the personality of Jesus is another thing too? i am dealing with his personality and not the wonders from historical point of view.

wirinet:
I disagree with you that the "chresto" mentioned in claudius's biography by roman historian Suetonius, was referring to Jesus.

First Suetonius was born AD69 while the events he was supposedly writing about happened between the reign of Emperor Claudius (AD 41 to AD 54), so obviously Suetonius was not writing from position of facts but from hearsay, more than 5 decades after the event is said to have taken place.[b][/b]

Secondly, Jesus was said to have been crucified between AD 30 - AD 33, so how come the same Jesus was causing trouble in Rome between AD 41 to AD 54.

Thirdly, According to acts Paul had not even gotten to Rome, he was in Corinth when he was told that claudius expelled Jews from Rome because of "chresto".

Fourthly, Aquila and his wife Priscilla that accomodated Paul were practicing Jews and not Christians or believers in Christ as the Messiah.

If you mean this evidence do not count , why do you think the source concerning Alexander the Great count? or do you not also accept Alexander the great do exist? if not, i can as well tell you the sources written by people who actually knew Alexander or who gathered information from men who served with Alexander are all lost. and the only trusted GREEk historian , by the name Arrian of Nicomedia,who is consider one of the best sources on the campaigns of Alexander has about 500 year difference. do you think is story can be very efficient?

Yet you said references to Jesus written about 5 decades which is independently verified should be dismissed.

most of the history available about Alexandra the great reveals ignorance about geography,chronology and technical military knowledge, yet this source are not questioned as an accurate source of history regarding Alexander's existence.

when it comes to the existence of Jesus, i am very skeptical on the theory, so i will not conclude he did not exist(there are some evidence to accept it).... regarding the supernatural Jesus as the bible portray it, that is story for another day.

tintingz:
Like I said, a person of Jesus might have existed, but the biblical magician Jesus is the one I don't believe to be real.

if i am getting you, you reject biblical Jesus base on supernatural activities attached to him and not because the person of Jesus did not exist. right?

tintingz:
There's no physical and archaeological evidence for biblical Jesus, the independent evidence is that there was a prisoner named Jesus or so in some Roman letter, there are just two widely accepted historical facts about Jesus existence.

So NO I don't agree with the probability of some biblical myths until more evidences are provided.

there is historical record, that are in parallel with the bible, for instance, the biography of the Emperor Claudius refers to agitations in the Roman Jewish community and the expulsion of Jews from Rome by Claudius during his reign ( from AD 41 to AD 54), likely the expulsion mentioned in the Bible Gateway passage: Acts 18 vs 2. In this context, the name "Chresto" is mentioned, which is likely a reference to Jesus.

Obviously, this validates at least one historical reference in the Bible itself.

wirinet:
The language of learning and academia was Greek, so if Jesus had any form of formal education, he would have learnt to speak and write Greek.

The

Now, I doubt any of the disciples would have spoken Greek, because they were uneducated and unfettered. So most likely, the disciples communicated in Aramaic.

Bartholomew and mattew are likely not illiterate, i can at least prove that of mattew to an extent, he was a tax collector, i think the only diciple that is not a fishermen

macof:
Why are you shifting your definition of religion? Earlier you gave a definition that capitalism fits into.

Religion is simply a system of devotion and worship. That is actually what it means from old french language
Isese is not a system of devotion and worship not everyone who adheres to isese principles and philosophies are devoted or worship a deity
People create their system of devotion and worship from isese

i am not shifting, i am only shifting in elements that differ both of them....i see you realize the definition suit capitalism as well, hence i need to shift in clarification...my definition is from a philosophical point of view and not from the morphology in grammar...

as i said , isese to me is unstructured religion because it do not fall into set of standard that an organized religions adhere, everyone is free to choose the method that suit him/her base on the orisha they subscribe to in their home..

A songo adherent will have a different concept from osun adherent and likewise obatala, but that does not mean he/she does not acknowledge the both...each devotion is demonstrated on the practises each orisha required, ogun devotee is clearly different from songo devotee...

i am awaiting your response on the question posed earlier?

macof:
Is Capitalism a religion? Because cultural system of a designated behavior and practices can mean anything

Isese is not a religion. That people make religions out of it doesn't make it a religion

Judaism today is a religion but it's source and history is not

Because it suits those scholars, if I wasn't so open minded I would be claiming isese is Pantheism because the pantheistic elements suit me

No, capitalism is not confined into sacred or any set of divinity, it is simply a social system...

The motive of individual in religion is to attract this cultural system and practices as way of life
The motive of individual or sate in capitalism is to attract profit..... therefore there is gap in your assertion....

i myself do not feel comfortable subscribing to the idea that ATR IS RELIGION but after given in second thought, i just need to agree...

before i go further, why do you think isese is not a religion, maybe we can start from there? and how will you define religion in Yoruba context?

macof:
I've they been able to properly understand the difference between Ebora, Iwin and Imole

Yoruba culturally believes we are not alone, we believes in other existence of other creature whom olodumare gives the ability to dwell in places like tree, rocks , water and the rest.....this being are call ebora or iwin, both of them are applicable but with different concept..sometimes, the being that dwells in the tree can be name oro inu igi or the ones that is believe to live in the forest are called iwin inu igbo while ebora itself is just a name that can be given to strong forces that is difficult or mystical like enigma in English(my opinion, i am open to correction on this assertion).

As for the imole, i think it needs to do with yoruba dialect, in ondo state for instance, imole are used instead of orisha.... for instance in akure
they do referred to ogun as imole ogun,i am not a native of akure yoruba speaker, therefore it will be difficult for me translating the language..(i will seek for clarification on it) this terms are difficult to address now because they are little scholarly report on it.

macof:
There are elements of it all
Deism
Pantheism
Polytheism
Monotheism
Etc

Isese is not a religion itself, people just make religion out of it and take whatever theological philosophy from the above mentioned that suits them

if religion can be defined as a cultural system of a designated behavior and practices. then isese is a religion, i agree it is not an organized religion like Christianity and Islam that is confined into a set of conduct through writing texts.... i will call isese unstructured religion.

majority of the scholars agree isese is monotheism....

Mujtahida:
Is ATR compatible with science?

That is my aim on this thread, i am trying to position how Yoruba ATR can be appreciate from philosophical and scientific point of view. but to authority answer your question if Yoruba ATR can be compatible with science, i will let prof sophie handle that....take your time and enjoy the short video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zsq3FSMof8

tintingz:
There might be some little truth about the story of Jesus in the bible but I'm yet to believe them as true as there are no historical evidence to back it up, although the person of Jesus might have existed but many of what is said about him in the bible are myths.

What I can accept about Jesus is he's just a motivational speaker, teacher that as knowledge about the Jewish scriptures, charitable man, sentence to death.

this prove that you see bible as a book that only speaks half truth about Jesus, if you agree with this, then there is probability that the other story maybe true or false... if will should work with the half truth....

Daviddson:
You don't sound like you're either a Christian or an atheist. What's your faith description please?

i am rooted to my tradition, in other word , i am a traditionalist with respect to every religion on our planet.

tintingz:
There are more archaeological evidence that supports existence of Muhammed than Jesus, the evidence that Jesus existed isn't strong but we can't deny he existed but not the bible super Jesus.

Are you saying the bible in its entirety is giving a false information about Jesus and there is no any iota of truth in it we can hold as evidence?

budaatum:
You generalise way too much. Just an ounce of research is required to conclude that Plato was writing fiction. He is not exactly read for historical fact by many, but for his philosophical thought which was borne aloft with his rather wonky and spurious 'facts'.

Not many atheists actually dispute the historicity of Jesus either, as there is sufficient evidence for someone of that name to have existed. The dispute usually is about the things written about him in the Gospels, which - since they were written much longer after his death than the three decades after which you claim Plato wrote about Socrates, and not by eyewitnesses - should be enough for some amount of scepticism about the facts, which is what you'd find in the atheist but would be completely nonexistent in the believer.

The Buddha also has his life detailed in similar fashion (by Herman Hess, and in the more ancient Buddhacarita by Aśvaghoṣa, Lalitavistara Sutra or the Mahāvastu for instance, to name a few), but some will tell you that it is impossible to know in such detail about the life of the Buddha, just as it is likely that not much, outside of religious rhetoric, is known about Christ.

sir budha . omo baba ilu oyinbo. i hail your present sir.......

Mujtahida:
I entirely agree with you cos you are being realistic. Sin is a control grid to keep people in check in society and that's why it varies from place to place. Your views are shot through and through with a matured and robust realism.

whao , i am honored , thanks bro

Mujtahida:
Sin to me is the hurt you do to me and I do to you as in the hurts, grievances, disappointments, harm, pain, injury that human beings cause to themselves and nature. I do not regard sin as flouting the commands of God. Noooo.

well, that make sense.... but what if something that is bizarre and rare in human nature like necrophilia, pedophile , bestiality and the rest are declare taboo ? how will you see it? human by nature needs something more emotional to put them into check, so some unverified truth are introduce( the powerful people who introduce this things knows they are not true).... like hell fire, paradise and all this concept....even Yoruba ATR has its own, for example, if a person slept with a pregnant woman that is not his wife, calamity will befall the person and the person can only be successful again after the baby inside the pregnant woman start nursing her/his own baby, or any baby that drop from the back of her mother accidentally, the baby will experience the death of seven people, if it is she, her husband will die respectively until she reached the eight one and the same things goes to man...... when you look at this concept logically, you will realize they are set of proactive measure to maintain a stable society, it is not that what they mean will actually come to pass, but the instructions must come with a fearful statement so that people will honor it.as the saying goes in latin terms , Vox populi, vox Dei which means the voice of the people is the voice of God. in actual sense when you flout this rules , you are actually floating the commands of GOD. next question pls

cutemadridista, you can see your purpose on this thread has being hijacked, people are now fighting over superstition.....which i try so much to sanitize in the beginning of this thread ....

Daviddson:
Those are made-up stories. I don't want to say much on that.

ok, but do not conclude that bible is the only source of true information on the reality of Jesus Christ.... it is called fundamentalism..... since the event happens in the past, we can only study sequence of the story and how parallel they resemble before we can say this is indeed true.... i do not say bible is anyway not trustworthy, in fact it can be used alongside other information to derive the truth.... The book is well explained in a way you will have little doubt about it...

tamethem:
Even at that, Christianity happens to be the most Criticized religion by the Atheists. It is as if Christianity is the only Religion on Earth.

African traditional religion is not even as attacked by Atheists as Christianity. But the reason is boldly written on the Wall.

Truth has many enemies

i think the reason behind it, is most atheist are formerly Christians, so they know little to nothing about Islam... they better attack what they can defend. i once visit this website, is the first atheist website according to the founder, atheist republic.... the founder happens to be former Muslim... he majorly attack Islam... ON the case of ATR, majority of them are not interested since it is very small in number ... my opinion though....

Daviddson:
Jesus was never a voice in the wilderness. He was widely known far and wide. He travelled the length and breadth of the ancient world, especially the countries surrounding then Palestine.

i am currently reading a book that state Jesus likely traveled to India to learn riki practice( the act of healing with natural hands) at the age of 12, according to the bible, Jesus story was silent from that age to the age of 30 years.... it is regarded as the missing years... the book said Buddha also follow the root 500 years before Jesus did... you can get it on amazon. It is called THE AQUARIAN GOSPEL OF JESUS THE CHRIST BY LEVI.... try and get it, it is interesting .

Daviddson:
This is my first time of hearing this. The focus has always been about Jesus Christ; some just brought Mohammed to it as a form of balance.

NO, it is issue that has being trending for long, you remember the Denmark film maker who depict Muhammad in form of a cartoon? just do a simple google search, it will tell you more than i can do... but the ironic story is this, No atheist doubt that the information Plato claim to receive from Socrates after 30 years of his death were really true and valid... all the information available about Socrates today were put down by Plato after a three good decade of his master( socrates dies_ ..

diasporaman:
Apostle (Prof) Johnson Suleman, the senior pastor of Omega Fire Ministries Worldwide gifts a young man the sum of $1000 to secure accommodation in Ghana.

The happy man was located by prophecy during the second day, morning session of Restoration 2018 which is on going in Accra, Ghana. The man is having accommodation problem and the man of God, as usual decides to put smile on the man's face by giving him the said sum which is a huge sum of money in Ghanaian cedis when converted.


Apostle Johnson Suleman is known worldwide for his benevolent act which has no boundary in terms of gender, tribe, race, country, etc.


Papa, as he is fondly called will celebrate his birthday next week March 24th.


https://diasporareporters.com/apostle-johnson-suleman-gifts-man-1000-secure-accomodation/

1000 dollars is roughly 4500 cedi ..... it will get him a comfortable two bedroom in Accra for not more than a year.... that country is dammn expensive

Mouthgag:
The luckiest generation is this present generation.


So much innovations and transformations in our life time

Not so true, the luckiest generation will never arrived, in about hundred years time , another generation will call our advancement backward just like we call the former generation backward and so shall the trend continue till Christ come, that is if he is coming....

some atheist also claim Muhammad Never exist... so it is not peculiar to Christianity alone

OkCornel:
Thanks bro... I'll go through these links for further study...

I find it interesting that most ancient civilizations around the world have a story to tell about a global flood...

Even in far away South America...

Another interesting story is the india flood myth but it is later than genesis for more than a century... therefore it cannot be accepted.

OkCornel:
For those who are of the opinion Moses plagiarized the Epic of Gilgamesh (and perhaps other Sumerian texts)...without even considering if he had a vision of what transpired in the ancient past...

I have a question on a contradiction in between Moses' account and the Sumerian texts (inclusive of the Epic of Gilgamesh) which may give us clues on the answer to the OP

The Bible stated that the Sons of God came down to earth and slept with the daughters of men who bore Nephilims.

The Bible states that God Almighty instructed Noah to build an ark for safety from the coming destruction...however, the Sumerian text states that Enki (a son of Anu) instructed Ziusdra to build an ark for safety from the coming destruction...

Bearing in mind that Ziusdra and Noah are one and the same person... my question goes thus. Who gave the instruction to build the ark? Was it God Almighty Himself or a Son of God?

One of these conflicting accounts should be the truth... ifenes, Gayjesus please what do you have to say about this?

Also bear in mind that Moses knew God Almighty to be YHWH...

i am of the opinion that the author of the flood account in bible have something to say about the Babylonia flood myth and not Sumerian ones (the Sumerian civilization disappeared around a millennium before the Israelites appeared in Canaan)so access to their own version of myth may be unrealistic,

The parallels between the older Babylonian flood myths of the Atrahasis and Gilgamesh epics and the story in Genesis are numerous and detailed. No other flood stories have such a close literary relationship with the biblical account.

Most scholars agree that the biblical versions [of the flood story] are descended from the Babylonian versions (Ron Hendel, high profile Jewish scholar, 2010). if you check the flood episode in Gen 6–8 matches the older Babylonian myth so well in plot and, particularly, in details, few doubt that Noah’s story is descended from a Mesopotamian account (Andrew George, leading cuneiform scholar and expert on the Gilgamesh epic, 2003) report

The parallells include:

A god warns an individual of a coming flood
he is told to build a boat to escape the flood
to precise dimensions
of wood, reeds and pitch* (Genesis uses two Mesopotamian loan words here)
with a roof
and multiple decks
all beasts and animals are taken aboard
“two by two” in a recently discovered cuneiform tablet
the family of the flood hero are saved
a seven day period is mentioned
the boat is sealed
the flood arrives and rises above the mountaintops
every living thing dies
the boat comes to rest on a mountain top
the mountain/mountain range is identified
it is located a little North of Mesopotamia
the flood hero opens the ark and looks out
a seven day period is mentioned again
the hero sends out several birds to look for land
including a dove and a raven
finally one bird fails to return (a raven in both Gilgamesh and the LXX)
the inhabitants of the boat disembark
the flood hero offers sacrifice to god/the gods
god/the gods smell the sweet aroma of the sacrifice
a memorial is established (a rainbow in Genesis, an astral "necklace" in Gilgamesh)
God/a god vows never to forget the flood
god/the gods decide never again to destroy all life
the flood hero is blessed by god/the chief god
laws are instituted (Atrahasis)

The word normally translated “rooms” in Gen 6:14 is probably “reeds” (Heb: qnim, the later Masoretic pointing may be wrong, and exactly the same sequence of wood, reeds and pitch occurs in Gilgamesh). Also note that the word for “ark” only occurs once again in the Hebrew Bible: to describe the reed basket of baby Moses that is sealed with tar and pitch so that it can float down the Nile.

https://arkencounter.com/flood/myths/


http://www.billstifler.org/HUM2130/files/2D-002-01-Babylonian_flood.htm



after reading this articule, i found it easier to believe Chinese flood myth, it might be true......

Mujtahida:
Karma at a deeper level means that you are in charge of your life not necessarily the concept of seed time and harvest that it has become associated with. It means you are free, free to be according to your choices. Thus with such a view of life the dignity of Man as a free agent is reaffirmed. Other religions say man is a slave to sin. Lies!

that sound similar to ESU in yoruba ATR which is the decision/ indecision of a man... i think concept of sins in other faith is to control human nature for the interest of weak/ powerful people.... for example, human are naturally selfish, selfish is a sin, human naturally want to survive by all means, so robbing, killing and all sort of vices become a necessity in human.... and all this are label as sins. the logical concept of it is to put fear in the minds of the people so that the weak/powerful member of society can live peacefully. personally i welcome the approach.... in actual sense it make our society more civil. if not we will be living like monkey in the jungle farm....

such of this also exist in YORUBA atr, we have what we called taboo(ewo) what is consider an abomination, like a pregnant woman must not walk in the sun, the logic behind it , is to assure the women is not subjected to heat which will rise her blood temperature and cause medical damage to herself and her fetus ....

many of us are called to become orisha, we don't know because we don't recognize the voice of Olodumare speaking thru the Egungun (our DNA). The voice of Olodumare is our consciousness. We all have that voice in us telling us the truth. It is not the second voice (the one that's always trying to rationalize vices, that is the animal brain's desires). It is the greater voice which needs not rationalize and validate because it exists in pure truth. This is the voice of Olodumare speaking thru the Egungun. They are calling you. Answer the call.

Mujtahida:
I trust I didn't give you the impression that I'm seeking answers to superstitious questions. I hate anything fetish or superstitious. I'm just saying that from the little explanations you have given in your other post I am fine with ATR it's just that I don't like anything that has to do with sacrifices and blood offerings. Are you saying such things are not part of Yoruba ATR as blood and food offerings and sacrifices?

sure, i make that statment first to clarify while i am not giving the usual myth associated with ATR... I belives the purpose of this thread is to share ideas and views, if you want to read about the usual myth, you can easily go online and read yourself... it is available... but i am interested in letting cutemadridista understand the teaching from philosophical point of view and not the usual mystical concept that people are familiar with.... i understand both the mystical and the logical concept, if i do not i will not be able to balance it... check my contribution so far....

Animal blood and food offering are part of YORUBA ATR, but the sacrifice in his actual sense are not what is most important, it is symbolical, a form of ceremonial, just like it is common for christian and Muslim sacrificing chicken and ram respectively during their festive period. when the animal is slaughtered, people gather and eat as way of saying thank you for the animal for sacrificing its life so that people can eat. but people are quick to blackmail us due to less understanding of how ATR WORKS, Some even get confused by this and think the sacrifice blood is the actual carrier of asé(authority) as some are trying to claim on this thread because the concept is so emphasized in the rituals. Animal blood does NOT carry any magical asé to solve problems. It is SYMBOLIC of the essence of one's own blood, which fuels the body. for example we die when too much blood is loose . The proper circulation of blood thru our body is the one that gives the energy to accomplish our goals. Thus, blood is symbolic of asé itself, the power to do. However, this is referring to blood that is living within us , not to the dead blood of a sacrificed animal, which is only symbolic of our blood.

Mujtahida:
Do you understand Hindu and Buddhist nonduality? Cos I don't see any distinction between their world view and what you wrote above
Shakespeare said 'there's nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so'

my understanding of budism teaching and hinduism religion is very limited, i do not have a grasp of it like Christianity and isalm but not entirely ignorant.... i understand the philosophy of budism and hindu on regard of judgement... they rest on a position called karma, from the hindu perspective, when a man with evil nature dies, he reincarnate back into society in form of lesser human(animals that of kind) while the good man will reincarnate back to the society until he has reach state of enlightenment... that is nivia(not too sure of the right word) where the man will come in form of god to be worshiped....

this is different from Yoruba perspective, who believes reincarnation can only take place only in the family line, reincarnation, meaning you cannot reincarnate unless the person share your DNA, IT MAY BE YOUR COUSIN OR SO. BUT THE PERSON MUST HAVE YOUR PROPER DNA, in order for reincarnation to take place...

well, the ATR SHARE many concept with many faith . for example, there are some verses in odu ifa that sound similar to that of psalm in the bible, i was tempted to say who borrowed from each other... but ifa is way older than Judaism , talk less of Christianity. it was estimated to be around 8 to 6000 years .....

dragon2:
The first picture above is the same as the picture used in the thread about the conversion of the Kaduna imam.This does not mean the story is false but the mods have to confirm the story.
link. www.nairaland.com/4397104/news-kaduna-state-imam-ibrahim

THE STORY IS TRUE

first of all , this thread is not for superstition and mystical talk. it is simply for those who wanted to be empower thru orisa psychology without relationship to ritual fanaticism, divination and all sort of mystical activities .

Orisa live in you, so awakening the Orisa is about awakening yourself.

The key process of waking up orisa is Obatala. This is why it is said that he is the creator and the king of all orisa. He is not the king of "whiteness" as much as he is the king of light. He represents the light that awakens and that reveals. He represents your consciousness itself that you share with Olodumare.

To awaken the Orisa you must begin by understanding that you are Obatala: the light of creation. In IFA spirituality, this realization demands devoted spiritual work that entails meditation, daily ritual, dance, and especially veneration of iconographic images. Over time, this spiritual work will cause you to achieve full Obatala consciousness. You have now become the Creator Orisha and have the light you need to see thru darkness and can now begin the act of creation in your life.

The details of spiritual work are too elaborate for a short post (it requires a whole book). for those who are interested, i may forward the details to your email( not guaranteed, i just have to notice the spirit of commitment in you first).

1. You must own a painting/sculpture of Obatala and use it for focus during meditation twice daily. You can have the icon in your bedroom or living room, but it must not be hidden from guests visiting your house.

2. You must wear white beads (though it is a common formality, you don't need to get them in initiation). If you want to speed up the awakening, then you should wear all white whenever possible for at least 20 weeks (of course, this does not mean you have to do so at work if it is not functional). Again, ensure the eleke is purely traditional

3. You must study the various oriki of Obatala to learn who he is. He is pure, does not drink, etc.

4. In front of your altar, you must meditate for 20 minutes as soon as you wake up. In your meditation, you must imagine yourself as Obatala. Dressed as Obatala in all white. You must imagine yourself as Obatala as you handle all of your daily activities. It is essential that you don't THINK you are Obatala but that you SEE yourself as Obatala in your meditation via the icon. You must repeat the 20 minute meditation before your go to sleep. Thus, you will be doing a total of two 20 minute meditations daily.

5. After doing these meditations consistently for 1-2 years, you will ignite the Obatala consciousness. Overtime, you will awaken your Obatala consciousness and are ready to be king of Orisa. If He is convinced of your devotion to his life of purity, he will possess you and begin to live thru you. You will then inherit his divine powers to achieve success in your pure endeavors.

These very very basic steps of meditation can be used for cultivating each orisha in IFA Spirituality. Most people fail because they are not consistent or they do not focus on BEING the Orisa during their meditations. It takes practice and commitment to becoming orisha.

Orunmila wi eniyan ni dorisa.
Orunmila says human beings become orisa


from the book of obatala the Greatest and oldest divinity...olayinka adewuyi.... NOTE; THIS WORK has little input from me...