The happenings of the HS in CE remain the biggest disappointment to me as a christian. CE remains one of my biggest disappointment as a christian.

And I am still recovering from the shock and disappointment. The teachings of the church did lay a solid and grounded foundation in my growth in the knowledge of God.

Not to digress from the thread but I think its important you don't read heresay information from me about the HIV antibody story I made reference on my previous post. Here is the link for the official national(and international) story.

How two women and the powerful antibodies in their blood may hold the key to discovering an HIV vaccine: http://ow.ly/eP9K3

This is much needed information and I must commend you @Kenyan28 for having the courage to share this painful yet needed information about yourself. Your full story will go a long way in saving one more life.

My first post on NL was on this thread drawn to this thread because I was( and am) familiar with the healing school in Johannesburg South Africa.

Needless to say since my first post on this thread on CEC HS I have than learned a lot from this thread about the possible medical explanations about the healings that take place in HS.
As a person that attended the HS in JHB accompanying a relative and a staunch member of CEC, I can categorically state that 80 percent of the healings that take place in CEC HS are medically explained by what @Davidylan points out in his counsel to @Kenyan28.

God still heals people, so you might find only 20 percent of the people in HS actually receive true and sincere healing from God. And no one knows why some people sincerely receive healing from God while others do not and this divine intervention from God can happen in any manner that pleases God and you do not need to go to CEC HS or talk to any pastor for it.

Apparently here in South Africa scientists have found an antibody from human cells that the is close toto them finding a vaccine for the HIV virus. By God's grace we will all live long enough to see that day come pass in our lives.

@OP,
What are you going on about?
What are you congradulating Zuma about?

No need to make special congradulations to Zuma on this. Trust me on this one.

frosbel:
Simples !!

Jesus Christ was fully Man and is fully GOD.

Let us revisit some biblical verses :

And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death--even death on a cross - Philippians 2:8

Psalm 8:5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor.
Psalm 8:6 You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone." - Hebrews 2:9

Our Lord Jesus Christ, when on earth , emptied himself of all the benefits of his divinity and became a MAN that he might taste death and become an atonement for the sins of all mankind.

He was empowered by the Spirit of GOD to achieve this end, forming a pattern that we must all follow , which is to be filled with the Spirit of GOD and walk as Jesus walked.

This signifies total dependence on GOD.

However when risen and now in Heaven, he is back to the state of Glory in which he was prior to his coming to earth.

On earth Jesus Christ was subject to God the father, and yet this same Son was called everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6, this is a mystery.

In summary the Father and Son and Spirit are one.

This is the state of our Lord now that he has overcome.

"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last." - Revelation 1:17

Exodus 3:6 Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.


Isaiah 41:4 Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD--with the first of them and with the last--I am he."

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last."

Ezekiel 1:28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking.
 
Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

" Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them" - Revelation 20:11


These are good scriptures you quoted. But if you can go back to the PREFACE of the bible you used to get this scriptures you will see that the Isaiah and Ezekiel scriptures you quoted with a rendering of LORD, from the preface of the bible you used to quote the above scriptures I am almost certain you will notice the translaters of the bible you have used mentions that translators opted to translate the tetragrammaton YHWH into 'LORD' in an effort to keep the tetragrammaton YHWH devine.

LagosShia:
What difference does it make if Jesus did or did not undergo serious blood loss while being prepared for or undergoing execution?
 
Answer: According to the New Testament, blood must be shed in order to obtain atonement. The author of the Book of Hebrews maintains that obtaining forgiveness of sin always necessitates that there must first be a shedding of blood (Hebrews 9:11-12, 22). Luke's Jesus claims that his blood was shed for his followers (Luke 22:20).

In the biblical blood sacrifice offering, a token blood letting is not sufficient nor is mere death sufficient. The sacrifice has to die through the shedding of blood. At no time did Jesus suffer blood loss to the extent of it being the cause of his death. Neither the blood loss due to the scourging (Matthew 27:26, Mark 15:15, John 19:1), the nail wounds (John 20:25), or crown of thorns (Matthew 27:29, Mark 15:17, John 19:2) caused Jesus' death. As a result, not only was Jesus' death not an everlasting atonement for sin it was not even a sacrifice.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=80:was-jesus-blood-loss-before-execution-important&catid=44:crucifixion&Itemi

ANSWER:

John 19:32-35
32. So they asked Pilate to hasten their deaths by ordering that their legs be broken. Then their bodies could be taken down.32 So the soldiers came and broke the legsof the two men crucified with Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs.
34. One of the soldiers however pierced his side with a spear, and immediately blood and water flowed out.
(NLT)

@paniki,
I'm still deeply saddended by your politics and economics. You resort to calling me names in your argument calling me lazy to do my own south african historic research. Calling me lazy is not enough for you,you further put words to my mouth and state that my problem is that I have a mentality of "white people stole our land. Who told all this information? Because it was not me.
I submitted above white south africans are committed to this country because they believed they helped built it to where it is today while black south africans remain equality committed that this country is their native land. Does that to you sound like some one who has a mentality of whites stole our land? If you read this statement as such than I cannot debate this topic with you as your reasoning comes out as irrational to me.
For the sake of clarity this statement acknowledges the infrustructure, technology, design white south africans hence their committment to the country.
And for the future it will do you well to recognise that differences in political ideology does not automatically assume and make a conclusion that I listen and follow political rhetoric. I reject your assumption and conclusion about my knowledge of south african history and do not want to at this stage engage with you south african political history as this thread is not about that.

The worst thing than racism south africans contend with daily is the black on black hate and I will not be drawn to that level. Again, the strategy of the Colonisers of divide and rule africans seems to have won as we remain divided and fight with each other.

I agree at this point Sean need to close this thread as the answer to his question has been sufficiently answered.

@OP
According to defination of a terrorist, yes quite rightly Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. He together with the anc leardership took a decision to abondan the non violance and peaceful protest policies of the anc against apartheid government after the Sharpville massacre in the 1960's. The anc liberation movement were strongly against violance but after the continued and strengthening violance of the apartheid government against the peaceful defiance of the apartheid laws, the organisation believed they were left with no other choice but to use violance and attack the structural buildings of the nationalist government so as to weaken its structures. The anc leadership neveer authorised violance against citizens and defense less people. Never the less there was violance that was levied on people at the grass roots level by individuals within the anc acting on instructions not given by the leadership of the anc but given by individuals within as the leadership of the anc was either in prison or in exile. Off course there are no excuses here for violance to carried against innocent white citizens of south africa no matter who made the call for this violance but only an explanation of the consequences and decisions taken during the apartheid government.

The irony though is that Nelson Mandela being defined and labled as a terrorist by the apartheid government and the western countries is the only terrorist in the world that has received a nobel peace award from the very same western countries who labled him as a terrorist.

@paniki
I'm not quite certain if you are condoning apartheid and taking a stand to safe it was seggregation of black south africans in homelands which ultimately contributed to building and developing south africa. Hopefully I am not understanding you quite well but if I do I don't know either to laugh or weep at your politics and economics. Africans it seems that the coloniser has still won over you, his method of divide and rule africans seems to have worked.

@Zolzlolz
Cape Town is city in south africa and in africa. Africans have longed been in cape town before 1652 when the Dutch arrived at the Cape. Africans in Cape Town lived there and traded with each other and made a living.If you want to live in Cape Town you have every right to do so free from racism.Sadly this is not so but this is your birth right and you can't run from racism and a city you want to live in by looking for a city that has people of your colour. That is oppression at its rife and the city Cape Town is in your country governed by the same constitution that governs the whole country and which constitution is the highest law of the land.
@pikini I'm saddened by your response for Zolzlolz to leave and find another province if he wants to be treated with diginity as a human as a white south african, this is sad.

@SA politics

On the surface we are a united country with key national goals among of these goals is our dedication to make this country work despite all odds. Majority of south africans believe in this and work towards this and we will once in a while lay aside our differences and look for similarities and work together to make this country work. Examples of this is soccer world cup we recently hosted in 2010, the reduced to almost no crime committed against our visitors, the recently concluded COPS 17 in durban 2011 and many other international events we have hosted.
Underneath the surface we are a deaply divided country.The avarage black child in grade 1 in a rural school or township school still continues to receive second class education. These children still deal with the residual effects of bantu education of the apartheid government. And such children from these schools if they matriculate will not get a job and will become unemployable as the years pass by without them having been employed. The reason for such is that the corporate sector of sout africa is highly competitive and will hardly employ incompatable employees.Sadly majority of these children grow up in poverty and will remain in poverty. Many of them will than turn to crime as they contend with poverty daily and others will become the burden of the state as social grants recepeints.The poor people of South Africa make up the majority of South Africans. The middle class and elite make a small percentage in comparison to the masses of poor people in South Africa. The effect that South Africa is deeply divided is something even the current anc government admits to according to governments released report by the National Planning Committee head by the minister Trevor Manual. The road to liberate black south africans to economic freedom is a far bigger struggle than the apartheid/political struggle as in human as that political system was.South Africa has one of the biggest gap in the world between those that are poor and those that are said to be rich.

But in our difficulties majority of us as south africans with our differences we stand committed to this country.Maybe its because white south africans strongly believe their helped built this country while black south africans believe this is their native country. Most of white south africans are committed to this country though some times pariod because of fear of the masses of black people, their even believe they are africans though white and will fight you if you suggest that they are not africans but citizens of south africa.

@zolzlolz
Without putting on record it is a possibility his riches were acquired in by unscrupulous means.But if not than I see nothing wrong in him buying expensive watches, 4x4s and big housess.
That's what people do when they get rich, they acquire such material things for themselves.His material posession is no exception from his rich peers. But again without being put on record I can say that his unscrupulous riches or not in majority the riches come from business and government.
It's all messed up and makes his motives for his econmic reform policies questionable.And because of this probable questionable motives it becomes difficult for him to bargain and speak on economic issues on behalf of all the majority of south africans. And hence I stated earlier the importance of responsible leadership.

@Paniki
There absolutely nothing wrong with Julius Malema living a rich life especially if his riches are acquired legally.
But there is something that is wrong in principle by a leader who leads millions of impoverished young people during the day time and in the media and during the night indulges in a riches. Principally there is something wrong with that. A leader is some one ready to take up responsibility on behalf of those people that he/she is leading.
And most importantly in a silent and vicious struggle like economic freedom where your opposition in south africa is white supremecy and institutionalised racist economic exclusion of majority south africans, a person who is not ready to sacrifice all that he/she has to break down such supremecy is not ready to fight this battle and is seen by such institutions as a mere rhetoric leader.

@Zolzlolz
According to the Sunday Times report today that's exactly what Julius Malema did. And it is dissapointing. It just shows you (me) that we need better principled leaders to lead us in this phase of economic emancipation in SA.
Will definately not win this battle with conflicting actions to the poverty many young south africans live with.

The issue of economic freedom for majority of poor south africans is a real issue and deepening poverty. We need better leaders to lead this cause. At this point I (we) miss the millitant, principled and dedicated leadership of our veteran leaders like Bantu Steve Biko, N Mandela, Chris Hani and many more others who fell for us to be where are today.

A much more comprehensive report from daily maverik.
By the second day of the ANC Youth League’s “economic freedom” march the real intention of the protest filtered through when songs calling for the replacement of President Jacob Zuma were sung. CARIEN DU PLESSIS took the Gautrain to Pretoria to be there.

The eery sense of impeccable discipline about the ANC Youth League’s march gave the impression that the organisation meant business. Also, walking the song that President Jacob Zuma always used to sing, Siyaya ePitoli (We’re going to Pretoria), kind of gave the impression that it’s not just talk for the League.

Pushing to get through the narrow gate leading to the Union Buildings lawn on Friday morning was a strangely orderly affair. It’s almost unnatural that people who are so hot (32 degrees Celcius, to be more exact), so young, tired, angry, and perhaps a little hungry as well, should be so patient and disciplined.

More than 5,000 people passed through that gate without incident. Maybe they were tired from not sleeping after marching most of Thursday and the night, but then again, the day before they behaved impeccably too.

But being driven by a cause does that to you. And boy did that cause become clear on Friday, with the young ones singing songs that President Jacob Zuma should be “changed”, while making that unsettling soccer hand sign indicating a substitute – the one that was used by the youth to get rid of then president Thabo Mbeki in Polokwane 2007.

It was followed by a showing of (clad) asses turned in the direction of the Union Buildings. The crowd was unhappy about being made to wait.

ANC Youth League President Julius Malema, who spoke from the back of the truck that was used in the march, now parked at the bottom of the Union Building steps behind the wire fence that separates the lawn (and the crowds) from the sloped gardens and steps.

He looked a bit tired, his yellow T-shirt with Madiba’s face on it (the hero who he wants people to believe he is turning into) having a few crease marks from stretching around the tummy area, and it seemed like he wanted to get the gathering over and done with. His energy as public speaker was, however, undiminished.

The Presidency had sent its Director-General, Cassius Lubisi, to receive the memorandum, but he was politely turned down by the League. “We need a minister, and if you’re not a minister, don’t even come close,” Malema said. Deputy ministers are, apparently, also okay. Malema’s reasoning was that people voted for ministers and deputies (who are in political positions), but not for those in administrative positions. Malema called for a minister about two or three times, in between sitting down in the truck to rest. If a minister didn’t come to receive the League’s memorandum, the kids would have gone home with it, and made another date with the Presidency.

While we were waiting, one police officer speculated that the Presidency was struggling to reach Zuma by phone (the President is in Perth for the Commonwealth Heads of State meeting), but eventually newly appointed Public Works Minister Thulas Nxesi descended the steps, suited and fresh from a meeting, and perhaps just a tad nervous. As unionist at teachers’ union Sadtu, Nxesi had been part of many protests, but he was a virgin at being on the other side.

Malema was triumphant, and declared that the League “always get what we want”. Despite having shown some irritation and suspicion earlier at whoever had deployed the special police task forces to be there (and we all know whose best friend Police Minister Nathi Mthethwa is), Malema made it clear that “we did not come here to fight with government. We support their programmes, but we came here to say we want more.”

He also tried to silence those critics (like SACP general secretary Blade Nzimande) who said the aim of the march was to topple Zuma, by saying: “This is a popular government. This government can’t be compared with the governments of Egypt and Tunisia. It has been elected and you will come here if you have issues to raise with government. It doesn’t mean you don’t love the ANC, but you want the ANC to do more.”

He handed the memorandum to Nxesi, who congratulated the League on the peaceful march and said Cabinet would study the League’s demands, which included nationalisation of the mines, expropriation of land without compensation (which would require a change to the Constitution), free education – the usual stuff.

The statistics around the march will become the stuff of struggle legend. It will probably go down in history that Malema had walked the whole 60km, although there was talk of him having bailed at 35km.

After initial reports that Malema had done parts of the journey on the back of the truck, the ANC Youth League issued a statement saying that this was “a desperate and disgusting lie”. In this game of chicken, er, sorry, economic oppression, with the ANC’s big shots, it is important for Malema to appear to be the one who didn’t blink first, or abandon his people.

Malema said the first group of walkers arrived at the Caledonian stadium in Pretoria at about 4.30am, which would have meant that League spokesman Floyd Shivambu’s press release just after 3am, stating that the marchers on foot arrived at 2.56am, was a little premature perhaps.

Malema also said 25,000 people took part in the march in total, after he on Monday said 5,000 was expected. It’s difficult to say if he was right, but media estimates had put the crowd at about 5,000 to 8,000.

Whatever the truth, Malema has won this round convincingly, and his endurance has won him respect even from people who might not have been open to respecting him in the past. It’s going to get more interesting from here on, we suspect. An ANC Youth League big shot suggested that the organisation would organise another big rally around the party’s centenary celebrations next year. “This is not the end but the beginning of the fight for economic freedom,” he said.

So, now that they've shown us the determination they're capable of, expect a lot more of the same from the ANC Youth League. DM

Source:www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics

ohannesburg - ANC Youth League members arrived at their Pretoria destination in the early hours of Friday morning, after a day-long "economic freedom" march from Johannesburg.

ANC Youth League leader Julius Malema lead from the front, himself walking most of the 50km trip, barring a few breaks on a truck.

The walk from Sandton to Tshwane, along the R101 Old Pretoria Road, took eight hours.

Marchers streamed into the Caledonian Stadium in Pretoria from about 01:00 and seemed ready to party despite the long walk.

A stage was set up on the stadium field where local DJs and rap artists performed for the crowd, who sang and danced along to the music.

An ANCYL official announced over the hailers that marchers should move to the food area to collect something to eat.

They were given bread rolls and juice. There were also hawkers selling chicken and steak.

One of the marchers who had walked the whole way from Sandton in her stiletto heels said she was relieved to have arrived.

"I made it," she said smiling.

Night vigil

Marchers were greeted by a large police contingent at the stadium, where a night vigil was to be held ahead of the handing over of a memorandum to the Presidency at the Union Buildings at 10:00 on Friday morning.

Portable toilets and a stage had been set up while security staff in fluorescent jackets were dotted around the stadium.

Some of the marchers had fallen asleep in cars as well as on a nearby lawn, pavements and stadium chairs.

On Thursday, Malema handed over a memorandum of grievances to the Chamber of Mines in Johannesburg's city centre, before marching to the Johannesburg Stock Exchange in Sandton.

The weary marchers had a brief rest before resuming their walk to Pretoria, although a large number dispersed while others boarded buses and taxis.

Many of them had begun gathering from 05:00 in Beyers Naude Square in the Johannesburg CBD. They only began walking at noon, four hours later than planned due to transport problems.

Led by Malema, police cars, four Casspirs and a water cannon, the group sang and danced through the CBD.

Chamber of Mines CEO Bheki Sibiya undertook to distribute the memorandum to its 55 members.

"We understand that the level of unemployment is too high and we agree with the youth league that the level of poverty is too high," he said.

The league wanted the nationalisation of mines and the introduction of probation programmes within companies to give youth skills in mining.

Malema urged supporters to exercise "maximum discipline" during their "long walk to economic freedom".

"Take your time and walk. We have the whole day and night. You must not run," he said. "We [the leadership] are coming to march with you because we are all from poor backgrounds."

Freedom

Some of the placards carried by marchers read: "The real freedom is economic not parliamentary. Free my people."

Another, bearing slain Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's picture, read: "We salute anti-imperialist martyr Gaddafi".

Others read: "90 percent of the economy is still in the hands of the minority" and "Malema we must stand by you through thick and thin."

When the group reached the JSE, Malema chanted: "Down with white capital monopoly. The people who are stealing our wealth must come on stage."

An official from the JSE received the memorandum from Malema, saying only: "Thank you for the opportunity. We will take your demands to the executive."

@Frosbel
We can't compare religion against each other. The is no competion.Religion is a persons personal search and acceptance of the existance of God.
On the topic, how than do we prove the factual existance of Christ? If we are to share our faith and truth with others?

First, I want to welcome myself to this section of NL. Normally I only read posts on this section and often amused by the in fighting, bickering and particulary the ignorance and preconcieved ideas we have about africans and the countries of the continent.

But Hertsnite last post about our president forced me to comment on his post.
@ Hertsnite, firstly you sound like a hate filled white person, in all your comments about SA you have tried to run down the country to prove your point, that the country will be destroyed by african people.
I want to remind you that as many have pointed out to you this is a song we have heard for many years and its a typical line that comes from an opportunistic adventures person whose only reason for being in Africa (and in SA ) is to explore flavourable business opportunities. This is the fundamental reason for the stay of white South Africans in SA. You have absolutely no interest in the individual lives of the people of SA because there are no profits to be made there only the reality of the lives of our people, which is still predominately people living in poverty and lack after so many of political freedom.
You complain about white South Africans being discriminated over for being white, pathetic! After 17 years of political democracy the South African economy is controlled by approximately a population of 39%, who are white male South Africans. When you refer to this so called discrimination am sure you are refering to policies and laws such as affirmative action skillfully ignoring the economic plaque I have mention earlier these policies and laws are addressing. Let's be realistic for a minute with the opportunistic and greed mind set of Europeans in SA, if there was no affirmative action policy and they had total freedom in employing any number of any race they desire and they are faced with a pool of applicants from 11 different tribes with europeans and afrikaans applicants in minority who would they hire. Remember these are people motivated by profits, greead and the feeling of superiority. If we are realistic South African Europeans and Afrikaans peple would continue to hire each other over the majority of the black population without policies such as affirmative action. And what is still shocking is that even with these policies in place the South African economy is controlled by a population of approx 39% white males. With that information, in reality who is discreminating against who. Stop complaining all over the internet and faced up to the basic fact that after "your glorious " arphartheid black South Africans are still largely impovorished by the continuing legacy of arpartheid.And this is a fact we need to address as a nation, but don't worry we joining forces together considering nationalising the SA mines so as to redistribute the natural resource wealth of the country back to its people.Maybe once our discussions and plans are finalised and tabled, those Europeans and Dutch South Africans who have no concern and interest in the lives of our people but care about their profits will eventually go and stop complaining and threatening of living all the time.
Whether the country after that suffers or not we will still be here, will make mistakes as we figure out how to run these mines profitably and be on our way to self recovery but unlike you who will go take a rest in the shores of Britain,Sctotland,Netherlands etc we on the other hand can only do one thing, which is to stay and work on our problems till we get it right.

You make mention of the SA president. Polygammy, is not that his african cultural practise? It is, so who's practise is more right the western practise you are familar with or his own african practise. There is nothing better about the western way of life to the african way of life its a matter of him deciding which practise defines him as an individual.You can't imply that he is wrong to practise his cultural practise because you are dismissing his owm culture and direspecting his culture in favour of yours and I(we) cannot accept that as africans. Lastly under the law you are pressumed innocent until proven guility. Was the president proven guility for the rape charge allegations? Off course you know he was aquited. So again, you have disrespected him and tainted his personality.By blatantly and unfairly labelling him a rapist when the law aquited him from these charges. You are not even aware of the political in fighting the president was facing at that time which could have led to the said allegations about him. Do not join in on issues you know nothing about as it shows you lack of interest in the lives of the very people you are talking about and therefore weakens and sets aside the point you are making.

Benodic,
Thank you for your response to my question above. It brought me a step closer to understanding the issue of healing.

I am still meditating on some the information you provided me. I'm left with one question though, there are just so many ailments people suffer from (eg.cancer etc) and go through in their lives. Some of these ailments were most probably not a result of any negative thing they did to cause an imbalance in their body but they were just attacked by such illness.
This idea that one can just be attacked from no where by such sickness and is at the mercy of chance lives me feeling very hopeless. And though I cannot explain it I just know this is not from God.

Benodic
I like your contemplation seeds.They are so soothing like I'm listening to the quiet waves of the ocean.

I have been contemplating about God's healing on the human body for a while trying to understand why is it that some times people pray and sincerely believe for healing from God but still don't get healed and subsequently die. I believe God hears these prayers and even answers them but what I can't understand is why some people die even after thay have prayed and have been heard and answered by God.
It feels like there is something in the realm of God I (and some other people) are not understanding about God on this regard. I also believe God's love is impartial. He does not choose whom to heal and whom not to heal. Which can only mean there is something I am not understanding about how God's healing works.

If you can, can you please shed some light on how God's healing on the human body works from your faith? And I'm hoping to gain a better understanding.
Thank you.

@Crossman9
It is hard for me to believe and accept that Pastor Chris (and CE) are in the gospel for money. What I mean by this statement is the following:
(a) Its hard to believe that Pastor Chris started the church with a purpose of generating money and wealth for himself
   Note: this is what the public is contending-"He is fleecing the poor and building a business empire for himself"
(b) Pastor Chris has built CE to be a profit generating business in order to establish himself and build wealth upon himself.
   - And the members of CE are customers for his business.

The sermons are mainly focused on as you say "money to pay your bills" and a large portion of the sermons centre around money because ministry is staying true to the material needs of its congregation, which is money. The members do need money to make a respectable living, need money to take care of themselves and their families, they need money to support and bless the lives of others who are in need that live around them.
Money in itself is not necessaraly an evil or bad thing. That is evil or bad is what you do with that money. After the bible says "money answereth all things" - Our money has to answer to the right things.

Seeing a broke person without any means of supporting himself is leaves one feeling painful and sad, and asking yourself what happened that this person is suffering so much. Suffering and living in need of money does not bring glory to God.
But a self sufficient person who has enough money to take care of himself and his family and having done that take care of the lives of other people that need help, supports them until they are self sufficient as he is.That brings glory to God as it gives hope and life to those who were once hopeless.
God gives us the power to get wealth, and we use the money unto good works so that our work shines before man so that man can glorify our father who is in heaven.

I hope I was able to answer you. I'm not saying all this in blind sight of the possibility of other people pursuing money and riches unto themselves. Others are pressured in one way or another to get the money for some event or another.
It happens. Which is why its important to stay grounded on God and in the bible as our guide and not man.
And for our intergrity to God its important to be honest about happenings,to talk about them and move beyond them.

You asked if I'm caucassion? No, I'm not. I am an african and my hair is beautifully black.A true african,child of the soil.

@ Enigma
I can't respond to what you quoted me on. I only stated the truth as I know it.

The hardest thing for me to believe is that Pastor Chris Oyakhilome is this gospel for making money as it has been advocated. I probably can accept (for myself) that the other faults CE has been questioned for in the public are as the people state them. Because the people who receive the message are people with families who depend on them and these are the same people who have passed on after attending the healing school sessions. I can't turn my back on such incidents and make a story for mind by saying the reports are false, the devil does not want the gospel to bE preached but the church is moving on.
What about the family of that person that passed on? It would not be right for me to deny such information when I hear it and its proven to be true so that I can align myself with a specific person or church. Protecting the church cannot be greater than the life of a person.
That is my views will some what differ and at times seem to contradict each other. And its hard for me to accept that Pastor Chris (and therefore CE )is in the gospel for money, I just can't accept that.

@Crossman9
I laugh when you say I probably have jerry curls and a line on the side of my head and that I wear a white suite to every meeting. I have never imaginged myself with any of those items. They would probably not go along with my own dressing as I am not a man as Pastor but a woman.

I also wish I was brain washed as you put it in my 5 years in CE ministry that would have made my walk and love for God in CE some what easier. Because all I would need to do is to just repeat what Pastor says, think what he thinks and do as he does. I would retire the function and use of my own brain in a nice cool shade and let Pastor Chris do all the thinking for me and the study of the bible for me. All that would be required from me is to just run with his words, that would be the begining and the end of my christianity and walk with God. As this is a privilage enjoyed by many of my fellow bretheren. The word of God as understood by Pastor Chris.

I would be as you say anther mini Pastor Chris Oyakhilome, another factory programmed mini Pastor Chris. That would be wonderful, total bliss and europhia. Imagine the privilage of the being programmed like this.


Unfortunately it is not entirely so for me and that's probably where the problem lies. With these wonderful years in CE I don't seem to be able to be programmed. Its as if the code that is being used malfunctions when it comes to my turn. And it is because if its not in the bible my spirit cannot take it. I am only moved by the bible and nothing else and I learnt that from Pastor. And he never said the word as I say it Pastor Chris. He mentioned the whole bible,to study it to show thy selves approved. He did not say study my words but this seems to be what CE has understood him to mean.

You can't blame anyone really at CE for acting and thinking as they do because instruction comes from head down without any opinion from your side. Which is why I am not sure what people mean when they talk about opinion in CE because that does not exist. Your opnion on Gods word is irrelevant, the opnion that is taken to be a fact is that of Pastor.

Which is why when the members eventually reboot their own brains and allow them to function again and form their own opinion, they are dismayed to learn of all the scriptures they ignored in pursuit of studying the words of Pastor Chris and cannot stand even one more day in CE and proclaim themselves to fight the ministry on every side for the damage they sufferred while they were pursuing his words.

One wonders when they were prepared to fight any person to their last breath when they spoke of them to prefer to follow Pastor in opposition to the whole bible, were these the actions of people awake and in pursuit of the truth or were they as you put it programmed man and unaware of their own thoughts and actions. It cannot take God to come down from heaven to inform us that such behaviour and evidance of our work in the "church" is not what God seeks from us and it is not what he is looking for from us. Matth 3: 9 " For I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

@Mabell:
Mem, I was a visitor in Christ Embassy once during my first day in the church wihich was 5 years ago. It has been 5 years now with me being a full member and a leader in Christ Embassy. Do not get me wrong I admire Pastor Chris for all that he determined in his heart to do for God, its inspiring to see what he has achieved but like I said God called to follow him even before I met Pastor Chris. He did not introduce God to me nor did he introduce christ to me. Christ is my life. Pastor Chris helped me to grow my relationship with Christ to a point where he is real and alive in my life. I will acknowledge that and testify of it anyday at anytime.

Not only am I a leader in CE, I am part of the leardership which Pastor Chris says God gave him as an answer to his prayer to financially support him in his vision to spread the gospel to all the nations. I am part of the leadership that has taken it as their resposibility to financially ensure the gospel in CE is preached and reaches the world. I will imagine you know which division I am referring to. And I do it with joy and peace because he has taught me to carry the crys and heavy burden of millions in my heart.

My devotion though is first to be true to God whom I serve. I do not forsake the word and truth of God for the sake of taking up Pastors word. I did not become a christian the day I joined Christ Embassy, my understanding of God has matured to reflect his word and my spirit decerns all things according to Gods word because that is how God has made me to understand him.

If at any given time I own up and admit that what we do in CE as exactly as people say it, its not to castigate any lies because the actaul lie would be to deny the truth so that I can be faithful to your eyes and the eyes of man. As the bible instructs me in:

Matt 6: 1 " Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven".

Denying the truth as I know it and as a result lying so that I can stand firm in the eyes of man has no reward for me from God but damnation.
For the word of God puts it as this:

John 8:44 " You belong to your father, the devil and you want to carry out your fathers desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. "

I John 2: 21 ", and that no lie is of the truth"

It is therefore my obligation as a christian to speak the truth as I know it at any given time because should I not do so I am no longer a christian as I say that I am.

I don't blame you for reasoning as you do because most of the bretheren I personally know reason as you do. They do not appreciate anything said about Pastor Chris which is not what they were taught even if what you are saying is the word of God. Its not the word of God until Pastor says it. Your reaction is anticipated to be as so.

It is not my responsibility to look for holes in CE and poke them one by one because my belief is that as long as we are humans we will be imperfect on this earth. Jesus was the only perfect person to live in our world. I do not expect perfection from anyone or any institution in this world. As a christian though what I expect from any other christian is the truth and honesty concerning his word at all times as set out in the bible.

I can write you volumes of books about the leadership of bretherens (even Pastors) in CE who were once the mighty man and woman of the SA CE ministry who have today declared themselves enemies of the the ministry. And their concerns are legitimate and valid.

The basic truth is that If you cannot accept and acknowledge your mistakes and flaws when close people whom you have a trust relationship show you those mistakes, you cannot begin to asses them and their impact on you, you cannot learn from them and as such you cannot grow from them and be better becuase you failed to do the first requirement which is to accept them. And there lies the falacy of CE, resistance to the truth. Giving all terms and making an "us" and "them" mentality in the body of christ in order to maintain its position. Off cousre until that position is changed by Pastor Chris, until than CE remains stead fast, unmovable in its position. And resist all other scriptures showing a different position.

But the bible at least lets me know that: Acts 10: 34 " Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of truth I perceive that God is no respector of persons. "

God honours his word.

There is no gist to spread but my interest are only the word of God and to honour his word in good circumstances and in bad circumstances.

Crossman9's book is for interest and to check its validity. If someone I know shows interest in the validity of the book, I will give it to them for them to explore their own thoughts against the truth and come up to their own conclusion because I am required to do by the word.

John 8: 32 " Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. "

@crossman9
It seems like our problems in CE are brewing though I know my bretheren in CE will never acknowledge any of that.
And don't be too alarmed when you don't get any acknowledgement when you are right in some instances about the doctrine and "ways" of CE. As you know since you say you were part of the ministry, the CE bretheren are trained into being in illusion and dismissive about the negative consequences and impact some of the workings of CE have on the individual lives of people. And such an attitude questions the genuiness of th vision of the ministry to touch peoples lives and give them a meaning.

The unspoken golden rule in CE is that if Pastor Chris (bless him for his work) has not mentioned a situation as a reason for concern than its not a concern even if the majority of people feel within their hearts its a problem. Sorry there is no such thing as majority in CE, so its better put as( majority in secret ). In CE we do not own up to anything until Pastor Chris gives us word to do so. We do not think for ourselves but examine our thoughts to make sure what we think is in line with what Pastors Chris teaches us. We do not think beyond what Pastor has said. How can we, when he is our Pastor send by God to guide us. We go where he goes and we say only what he says, he is our man from God and we respect the anointing upon his life we and are in submission to the ministarial call upon his life.
That is us,CE,

I say that to say this, I'm interested in your book. At first I did not take it seriously for one reason or another but some of the submissions you have put forward about CE are as as you have said them.

When the book is finished how will you publish it? And would I and a few other people I know be able to get a hold of the finished book? I'm hoping it will be a factual book and not another fictional story about CE filled with heresays. We have heard a lot about CE already and need proven facts that one can follow up on.

Am still in CE but I believe God's call upon my life is greater than the teachings and vision of Pastor Chris therefore as a true worshipper of God, I worship him in spirit and in truth hence why I gravitate towards standing up for what is true and speaking the truth as I know it. Otherwise I would not be able call myself a christian if I could not speak in truth.

@Sweetnecta
It appears you are the one that does not understand christianity but I do understand you after all you are in the Islam religion.
Just a quick overview for you about the death of Christ. He came to die for our sins. He died for the lives we were living in sin without knowledge and awareness of him.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who so ever believes in him should not parish but have eternal life".In John 10:10, Jesus establishes his purpose in coming to the world by verse stating, "The thief comes only to steal,kill and destroy, I have come that they may have and have it to the full.(NIV)
Jesus further shows that we did not choose him but that he is the one that chose us, John 15:16(NIV) "you did not choose me, but I choose you, " He is the one that choose us before we even knew him and he died for us as John 10:10 showed you, he layed his life and died for us so that we can have life and have it in full.

From the above you now understand what he came to do in the world when he came. You know his purpose for coming.

Later in the day I will give you a quick over view of his death on the cross and the significane (meaning) of his resurrection.

My plea is to speak to him because everyday I see the impact of our silence about the actions we are held accountable for the communities we try to preach to and win them over to kingdom of God.I have a very good understanding of myself in christianity and about christianity so I could never look for anything else except to always learn about my life in the knowledge of Christ.
Islam is not an option for me,not today not ever. Thank you very much though for the offer because I'm certain it came from point of concern and sincerity but Islam is a religion that is not for me.

Gala 2:20 "I have been crucified together with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me". Christ is my life.

I have experienced a similar problem. I have been trying endlessly to reach Pastor Chris Oyakhilome directly with complaints I want to file with him directly. I'm a dedicated member,leader and partner of the CEC ministry here in SA and I always thank God for connecting me to CEC, a word - based ministry but I have personal enquiries that I know can only be answered by him.

I understand and respect spiritual authority but because of the size of the ministry and fear of being repremanded I do not believe any middle person can best present my concerns to him as honest,sincere and respectful as best as I can. I have tried fowarding him some of my concerns on Twitter recently as I believed its the next best meduim I can use to talk to him directly.
If possible could some one assist me with his direct email address,not a group email address but one which he access himself. I don't believe it brings Christ glory when we know of actions we are resposible of as a ministry and not take respisibility of them when such actions are in them selves nailing Christ again on the cross by the amount of dishonour that is brought to his name by our actions.

Being silent and leaving the matter to the Pastors to deal with and present it to higher authority will not always be the solution.I need to speak to Pastor directly. It has been said the church (body of christ) is not a democracy but I don't believe the scriptures and the death and reserrection of Christ for us established the church to be an autocratic body Christ either.
My request is sincere if any one can assist please do so.

I often attend economic conferences about the most rapidly developing countries in Africa in terms of their economic growth and u will be most pleasantly surprised to learn that Nigeria is regarded in the african continent to be the next big thing in Africa.Economists,multi-national companies and Investment Banks are focasting their next biggest growth to be coming from Nigeria.One of the biggest deals in South Africa you will hear about in business news and that get the market excited is when a company mentions a national company in Nigeria to be its partner in a commercial deal because for some economic reason deals with Nigeria always yield in billions of dollars of revenue (when the deal is eventually concluded successfully).

Nigeria has become a the most soughted after client by multi national companies and meduim - big companies on South African soil and yet when I read all the -ve comments about Nigeria by people of its own country I wonder if Nigerians are aware that the African continent is now looking on them to lead us to the next phase of economic growth. One of the major factors delaying multi national investors from taking a decision to aggressively invest in Nigeria by setting up companies there is the volatile Political environment in Nigeria. This environment poses as a high risk to their investments.These companies cannot influence the nature of decisions that will be taken in the polital environment because of being foreign companies and as such subject to the political and leglislative decions reached by the nation. One of the basic thing if not the most important thing for Nigeria to strive together to get it right is Political stability in the country. The instability of the political environment is in my view the major draw back in the economic progress of Nigeria which the rest of the other countries are seeing and want to enter the Nigerian market as a result of that.Majority of jobs in a free market economy (which Nigeria is part of) are created by investors (whether local or international)who see an opportunity in a particular market and enter that market to earn returns on their investment and incidentally generate employment for the community in order to achieve their profit projections. The government of any country cannot hire every citizen as it desires to do so but most of the time makes laws and policies that will create a condusive business environment and prive companies that seek to invest in the country.

The Political environment in Nigeria remains a mythical challange to foreign direct investors who want to invest in Nigeria as this problem is inter faced with many other influential such as Religion in Nigeria among many other factors. It is again in my view that aftar politics, religion in Nigeria is the second biggest challange for foreign direct investors to understand in their desire to enter this market. This is hugely contributed to the fact the religion in Nigeria seems to be penetrate its way into every sphere of the society to a point where it is almost everything is spiritualised. In boardrooms business strategy has been exchanged for a sermon on how " David truimphed over Goliath".And these eager investors into the nation are oblivious to the knowledge that religion in Nigeria seems to be the basic human frabric in the society, where it seems most decisions are influenced by religion and sentiment, be it political,business,finances etc. The basic fundamental facts and insight in these matters take a back seat and a religious solution is sought out as a solution and propagated righr through the society with familiar headings such as"how to receive your financial miracle without fasting".

With all that being said it is still worth noting that as per leading economist and multi national companies Nigeria remains the next biggest growing economy in Africa and I am excited and waiting to see tha unfold before my eyes.

There is nothing wrong with religion in a christians life,that is religion that is pure and undefilef before God as some has best put it above.Christianity though is more than religion.There is religion as being part of being a christian.
I like the above scripture in defining religion James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God a and the Father is this,to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. This as religion is part of christianity but it is not everything about christianity.

The Apostle Paul in Galat 2:20 puts it easier in understanding the broader life of being a christian by stating
20. I am crucified with Christ,never the less I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me.And the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God,who loved me and gave himself for me.
The christian life is now lived by faith in the Son of God which I believe develops one to obey the will of God in their lives.

The life we now live in the body as christians we live it by faith.By our faith in Christ,our faith is his word.Bringing us into awareness that we can trust God and trust that he will bring his word to pass in our lives.
Hebr 11:6 And it is impossible to please God without faith.

As christians like Paul said the lives we now live in the body we live that life by our faith in Christ.Having full knowledge that when we live our lives by being fully dependent on the word of God,we are infact being fully dependent on Christ himself because we know Christ and his word are one.As it is written in John 1:1
1. In the begining was the Word,and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And when we let our faith in word of God take dominance over our lives,where we are fully dependent on the Gods word and we are able to trust God in causing his word to come to pass in our lives.When we are able to do that our lives are crucified together with Christ yet we continue to live in the body but we only continue to live in the body only by faith.And as christians without faith it impossible to please God.

@SirJohn
The testimony sounds incredible.But what concerns me is that against your inner man warning you of danger ahead,you still proceed.
The Holy Spirit guides as well through thoughts and signals he will impress in our spirit. I think its better to wait till you feel safe than procced.God is not a man that he might lie or change his mind.
Prov 22:3. A prudent person forsees danger and takes precaution.

Praise be to God.

@Sir John: that's an inspiring testimony.God's mercies are new everyday.He is indeed our sure guide.

Was glad to read it.

I just heard this Sunday that CEC asked and/or ordered its members to leave Twitter n FB and use Yookos.
I must have not been around when this announcement was made. Just for clarity is this true? And if it is who made that announcement and what reasons did they provide for this act.

As member of CEC if this is true(and still awaiting reasons)but not one of the multitudes of hypnotised and deeply indoctrinated members this announcement is appauling to say the least. I accepted long ago that in CEC the business case will always proceed the ministry case of the church because of decisions taken by the leading body of the church. And as a church that prides itself by being a business more than a church it ought to operate as a business not when the circumstances suite the church but do so all the time. And as a business the church should expect to compete with other sites for consumer base for its site and stop manipulating the desire and love for God by people (and/or its members) to pursue its business interests. God is interested in having a personal relationship with his children and not which site they have left for the other. His concern is about the person and quality of life that person is living with Christ in them and if being on FB, Twitter or NL edifies their relationship than God is not interested about it.

Christ came to free man from the bondage of sin and the law:
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.
4: That the righteousness of the law might be fullfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.
5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh.

And God searches our hearts and is more concerned with our motives and what is in our hearts than which site we are in or not just like which congregation we fellowship in or not.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth the mind of the Spirit.

I feel very strongly about this merely because I do not understand the scriptural and spiritual motive behind it.

I have visted Yookos a number of times but I still do not get the idea behind me joining yookos.I could even join yookos with my FB profile and carry that profile to Yookos. I'm not comfortable with that for many reasons.The first reason being the fact that the friends I have on FB are to a large extent people I was with in primary-high school-varsity and worked with. And yes they update me about the most boring stuff you can imagine but at least I am able to stay in touch with them regulary as I would not been able to do so physically.So that part and purpose of FB I understand.

I still cannot understand though why I would have them to be on Yookos with me.I mean if I join Yookos,that's my thing based on my reasons.Why must I carry them with me to Yookos,it serves a different need to the need I am friends with them on FB. On yookos I talk to people about CE related topics on CE related discussion groups. Off course there are those non CE groups they can participate on but in essense in as much as they are not CE groups but the language used in even in those topics is the CE language and I don't have a problem with that. The reality though is that the people I have as friends on FB have their own ministries and scriptural doctrine which they are comfortable and happy with.Why should I force them to CE doctrine and drag them to Yookos just because I happened to be there.
In my view the aim of being in Yookos should be to meet people who are already in yookos and interact with them based on shared values and beliefs. I am well aware of the messages and prayer times they will be receiving with Pastor Chris daily on Yookos. That as well is not really a reason at all because they want to pray together with someone they know and have a personal fellowship with than to pray with a pastor they personally do not know and have a relationship with.

And then off course there is the benefit of their businesses advertising on the site because it has a global reach of people. That depends on whether they believe that the major demorgraphics of their target market is on Yookos and if they engage on Yookos daily and contiously during the day for message on the advert to reach their market, and they are just not convinced on that.

Which makes to come back to the question, what is the main objective on being on Yookos. Except the fact that one needs to be on it if they are CE members because its a ministry social network platform. Besides that, what response are the developers looking for from the broader society outside CE when they developed the application? Can the CE mem suggest reasons as this will be of great help.
Thank You.