₦airaland Forum

Who is claiming that tithes were agricultural because Israel was agrarian here, me or you?

Let me preempt pea-brained arguments.
Israel was largely agrarian so instead of God commanding tithes of every other vocation, He stuck with the majors.

When you recall that Abraham bought a field with money hundreds of years before the Law not to mention that at least one of the three tithes could be converted to cash,taken to Jerusalem and reconverted to food, and some tithes could be redeemed at 120% their value in cold cash,you have to put on your dumb and obtuse double Kevlar armor not to see that God wanted NOTHING to do with money and tithes mixing

Image123:
Did anyone say that they were all farmers? This bizarre solidarity makes one HOPE that you are all just ignorant as against dishonest. It is that bad.

BBG,
They have healing schools because we have more diseases than then. That's just me

I like your analogy. Very intuitive, but in the scriptures, we have three clear examples of people who prophesies being called prophets. Please allow me to stick to scriptures.

Any guessed definition you give for Wisdom and Knowledge is as good as mine. Holy Spirit just left us with little to nothing clearly distinguish these wonderful gifts. That's why your subjective guesses for the two can't objectively determine what gift of prophecy is or is not.

Forthtelling vs Foretelling. These are LARGELY reformation lingo especially forthtelling,probably Calvin. I need to try and dig deeper into its roots though. Give me an example of forthtelling in NT

BabaGnoni:
Oh, what a relief, as I thought as much you'll be aware of the schools of prophets, but didn't want to jump the gun
a bit of digression, funny isnt it we had schools of prophets in the bible but not schools of healing or healing schools

Back on track, OT Saul was anointed, and he prophesied right away (i.e. similar to what you alluded to that believers were baptized with the Holy Spirit and they prophesied right away)

I still maintain that, just because one cooks (i.e. prepares and cooks meals), it doesn't necessarily make one a chef (i.e. one doesn't put on the tag, title chef or take on the position or chef status)
- one may display the attributes of a chef but one doesn't necessarily assume the office or take on the title

Also though I didn't earlier read nlMediator's submission on the subject matter thoroughly, as I skimmed through his submission
I can now state that I subscribe and endorse 110% the submission

"And that’s because the gift of prophecy is for forth telling, not foretelling.
The gifts of the spirit that deal with fore telling and seeing into the supernatural are Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowledge and Discerning of Spirits.
Reading the gift of prophecy as referring to the kind of foretelling that a prophet does renders some of the other gifts meaningless, especially Word of Wisdom. In other words, how is prophecy that foretells different from Word of Wisdom?"
- © nlMediator


HELPS Word-studies
4394 prophēteía (from 4396 /prophḗtēs, "prophet," which is derived from 4253 /pró, "before" and 5346 /phēmí, "make clear, assert as a priority'') – properly, what is clarified beforehand; prophecy which involves divinely-empowered forthtelling (asserting the mind of God) or foretelling (prediction).
http://biblehub.com/greek/4394.htm

Has to be said, christmas came early for this one, as nlMediator had this one in wraps

Look at what you are saying about Paul,why he couldn't have been a prophet but was a teacher. You are out on a limb.
Verse 1 makes it clear that the prophets and teachers included among them Saul. We are not told what Paul was of the two. All of them were fasting and praying and Holy Spirit spoke. It is obvious He never used Paul nor Barnabas. Two questions;
1. Is what Holy Spirit did prophecy?
2. Can a prophet receive prophecy from another prophet?

You ASSUME these answers to these; 1. Yes and 2. No
Only then can Paul be disqualified from being a prophet.

The order in which those names appear is IRRELEVANT unless you can prove otherwise.

Once again, offices vs gifts is largely a matter of creativity than scriptures.
The three portions of scriptures you shared are not identical yet you would insist they are exhaustive. What is the difference between 'ministry' and 'spiritual' gift?

1. Diversity of tongues appears among your spiritual gifts of 1 Cor 12:8- 10, as well as verse 28 among ministry gifts.
2. Evangelists are missing in verse 28 but are in Ephesians.

I grew up in faith learning about the so called five-fold ministries. In fact it is almost heretical to dispute this. But is there anything like FIVE ministries?

Bidam:
Paul talks about ministry gifts in writing to the Church at Ephesus. Paul said that when Jesus ascended on High, ". . . he led captivity captive, and gave GIFTS unto men" (Eph. 4:8.).
What were those gifts? Paul goes on to list them. They are ministry gifts Jesus set in the Church.
EPHESIANS 4:11,12
11 And he gave some, APOSTLES; and some, PROPHETS; and some, EVANGELISTS;
and some, PASTORS and TEACHERS;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the
body of Christ.

On spiritual gifts Paul list 9 of them.

1 CORINTHIANS 12:8-10
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the WORD OF WISDOM; to another the WORD OF
KNOWLEDGE by the same Spirit;
9 To another FAITH [special faith] by the same Spirit; to another the GIFTS OF HEALING
by the same Spirit;
10 To another the WORKING OF MIRACLES; to another PROPHECY; to another
DISCERNING OF SPIRITS; to another DIVERS KINDS OF TONGUES; to another the
INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES.


Paul or Saul was indicated last in that verse of scripture i quoted. The scripture listed The prophets first then the teachers. Paul couldn't have prophesied to himself to be separated or called for the special work to which the Holy Spirit called them. It is evident from that verse of scripture that Paul wasn't the one that prophesied so we can safely conclude he was a teacher.As for Agabus you are entitled to your opinions since little is given about him from scripture.



Already did. In addition, in First Corinthians 12:28, Paul is also listing ministry gifts, but he lists them in a little different way.
1 CORINTHIANS 12:28
28 And God hath set some in the church, first APOSTLES, secondarily PROPHETS,
thirdly TEACHERS, after that MIRACLES, then GIFTS OF HEALINGS, HELPS,
GOVERNMENTS, DIVERSITIES OF TONGUES.

BBG,
I fully understand schools of prophets in the OT, I don't find that in the NT. Believers were baptized with the Holy Spirit and they prophesied right away. There is evidence that prophets were in the church at the earliest ruling out training and tutelage in the NT

BabaGnoni:
vooks please explain the bold? What was the question about? What were you getting at or against?
Are you saying that prophets were never under tutelage in the bible?
If yes, were you then asking who they were (i.e. the prophets under tutelage) and asking where in the bible, were the prophets under tutelage?

nlMediator:
In I Cor. 14:3, Paul said that “he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.” But we know this is not true when it comes to the work of a prophet. Prophets say hard things that don’t necessarily comfort, edify or exhort. Perhaps, in MOST cases they do not. So, Paul must be referring to something else here when he mentions this gift.

1 Cor 14:24 (KJV)
But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
This is one verse where prophesying neither edifices,exhorts nor comforts. So to limit 'gift' of prophecy to those is wrong.
Verse 22 tells us prophecy is NOT for unbelievers yet in this verse we see the gift working wonderfully in a non-believer. I'd not be too rigid when it comes to gifts.

And that’s because the gift of prophecy is for forth telling, not foretelling. The gifts of the spirit that deal with fore telling and seeing into the supernatural are Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowledge and Discerning of Spirits. Reading the gift of prophecy as referring to the kind of foretelling that a prophet does renders some of the other gifts meaningless, especially Word of Wisdom. In other words, how is prophecy that foretells different from Word of Wisdom?

It takes maturity to admit that we have scanty information on the exact nature of spiritual gifts or at least most of them. You have no working definition of Wisdom or Knowledge so you can't subjectively define them and insist that your other subjective definition of prophecy would contradict these.

Nevertheless, a prophet may also prophesy in the sense of bringing words that comfort, exhort or edify. But to be a prophet, he would also need other gifts in operation like the Word of Wisdom, i.e. revelation gifts. In I Cor. 14: 29& 30, Paul talks about prophets and revelation: “if anything be revealed . . . .” He didn’t say that with the gift of prophecy.

I would say you are splitting hairs here. Paul in 1 Cor 14 makes no distinction between prophets and prophesying. If you were any honest and you removed biases, how can somebody talking of evangelism and evangelists in the same breath or teaching and teachers be talking about different things?
1 Corinthians 14:30-32 (KJV)
If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets
Why remind us that the spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets? Those prophesying are called prophets or reminded that prophets don't 'lose it'. This only makes sense because the prophesying brethren are prophets themselves.

On the other hand, gift of prophecy is compared to tongues and interpretation of tongues. In I Cor. 14:1, 5 & 39, we see the comparison. Nobody would argue that when people speak in tongues and interpret in church or even at home, they’re necessarily revealing anything. Usually, it’s an inspired utterance to build up the church or help people that need uplifting. That’s what the gift of prophecy does, only that it does it in plain speech instead of tongues that need interpretation.

I half agree. Prophets too do not necessarily reveal things.

I also agree with the point already made earlier that the exercise of a spiritual gift does not mean that you’re called into an office. What makes the difference, I believe, is not training to be a prophet or teacher etc. but the consistency of the operation. That is, God can use anybody to heal but that does not mean that that person has the gift of healing. And God can use anybody in the area of gifts of healing, but that does not mean that person is a healing evangelist. Occasional or periodic manifestation is what distinguishes those not in the office from those in the office.

This is where we inject subjectivity. How often should one prophesy to be called a prophet? What is the office of apostle? How much of those roles do you need to qualify as an apostle?
BTW, I don't buy Hagin's theory of 'foundational' apostles versus others I don't recall their designation.

For instance in 1 Cor. 14:1, Paul tells the Christians in Corinth to covet spiritual gifts and to prophesy. But earlier in I Cor. 12:28, he makes clear that not all is called into the office of prophet, a point he emphasizes again in Eph. 4. If not all are called into the office of prophet, why tell ALL to desire to prophesy, knowing that prophesying would make them ALL prophets? That does not make much sense. What Paul obviously meant was that prophesying would not make you a prophet, nor would exercise of any of the spiritual gifts he asked you to covet. The spiritual gifts will serve the church through the believer, but it does not mean that the believer is at the level of ministry gifts.

Now, that does not mean that training can be discounted. Au contraire, it is very important to help the people called into an office to sharpen their skills and conduct themselves properly for greater effectiveness. But even without and before the training, the person is still called to that office.

You raise a very important point. Let's break it down
1. Not all are called into prophets
2. All are exhorted to covet prophesying

CONCLUSION
If prophesying makes one a prophet, Paul is contradicting himself since not all are called into the 'office' of prophecy

But there is another explanation. Not all receive the gift of prophecy initially. Whatever you start with, ernestly desire 'higher' gifts you never had to start with.This is not absurd. He says those speaking in tongues should pray that they may interpret meaning they were not interpreting initially or were not called into the 'office' of interpreting tongues.

Bidam:
Firstly Paul never called himself a prophet but an Apostle. His letters to the churches is a proof of that. Secondly Spiritual gifts doesn't confer you the office of a prophet, it is wrong to insinuate that. Gifting is not ministry. When God calls someone to the prophetic ministry he is empowered by God with doma gifts to accomplish that ministry. Ministry gifts isn't the same as spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts is given to every believer but ministry gifts isn't for every one and that is why someone called into the prophetic office can operate the gift of prophecy under the unction of the Holy Spirit in a consistent manner like Agabus.

What is the difference between ministry gift and spiritual gift? Is apostleship a gift of any sort?

You can arrive at such by deductive reasoning. The Holy Spirit was poured out in Acts 2.It will be foolhardy to think Agabus was not there at that point in time cos scripture records he came from Judea, Look at the time frame from ACTS 2 to ACTS 11 when he and other prophets of his kind came down from Jerusalem to Antioch.

Time had passed between Pentecost and Agabus prophecies so I can't rule out tutelage but nothing of the same is mentioned. You are reading INTO the scriptures

Ok, you are welcome.

Paul was initially a teacher in Antioch.

Acts 13:1-3 (NLT).Among the prophets and teachers of the church at Antioch of Syria were Barnabas, Simeon (called “the black man”[a]), Lucius (from Cyrene), Manaen (the childhood companion of King Herod Antipas[b]), and Saul. 2 One day as these men were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Dedicate Barnabas and Saul for the special work to which I have called them.” 3 So after more fasting and prayer, the men laid their hands on them and sent them on their way.

Why would you insist he was a teacher and not a prophet initially? That is quite arbitrary of you don't you think? He could have been a prophet or teacher in Antioch.
In any case, how many years do you suppose had passed between Pentecost and Acts 13? What about Acts 11:27. Who taught these prophets what? We had prophets almost immediately after Pentecost

The word of knowledge is not the exclusive preserve of a prophet. There was a day i was directed by the Holy Spirit to evangelize to an unsaved guy, in the middle of our discussion the Holy Spirit began to tell me things about the guys past, when i told the guy those things he was shocked and was wondering how i came to know about him so much. To cut a long story short he gave his life to Christ immediately.

I can only say Amen to what Holy Spirit is doing through you

The office of the prophets have ministry gifts or doma gifts while gifts of prophecy is one of the spiritual gifts that all believers can operate in.

back this with scriptures please

Me neither. Likewise when I find abuse of Charismatic, I will dismiss the abuse and hold on the the true and proper use

WinsomeX:
No. I would not. If I have the opportunity, I will simply point him to the true gospel
If not I will commend Christ's body to him to build at his own rate.

Practically speaking, a few people get saved in environment where the gospel is being merchandized. It doesn't affect their salvation. They remain God's people. What might happen is that if these people are truly growing, they will eventually come to discern the rot in the system and many of them will leave.

But why should some of us then oppose merchandizing of the gospel and a false gospel? Because the likely of true conversion occurring in these churches is low and it is getting lower everyday. In fact the days are coming when no one will be saved in Prosperity Churches; it will all be a conglomerate of unregenerates. Why? Because only the gospel saves. Where another gospel is preached, no one is saved.

So another way of answering your question is that Christianity is NOT a merchandized gospel. I will tell an unbeliever this if I have the opportunity to; where I do not, I will trust God who is mighty to save to bring souls to faith in Christ.

Thank you.
You are the most resourceful person I ever met. God bless you

Shalom

Gombs:
i already provided them

Bidam:
Ok.

Because Saul was able to prophesy doesn't make him a prophet neither did God confer that honour on him like Moses, David and the rest of them. And again we shouldn't confuse the OT prophets with the NT. The OT prophets pointed to Christ while the NT prophets functions to MATURE the saints so they can disciple the nations. The prophets guides and directs believers for purpose and destiny in Christ.

If prophesying don't make paul a prophet,what does?
Back your answers with scriptures

In the OT jeremiah has to undergo preparation and tutelage by God before he prophesied to Israel. Elisha received mentorship from Elijah for a while before he became a full fledged prophet of God. Amos was in his prime gathering sycamore fruits for a while before God called him to prophesy, it wasn't a one day thing you know. You have to go through a school of the Spirit. Even John the baptist who was the culmination of the OT prophets had to run to the wilderness before the time of his showing to Israel.

What preparation and tutelage did Agabus go through?
Scriptures please

. The major and minor prophets was as regards to the volume of books they wrote but that doesn't make them major and minor either in the prophetic delivery of their words. It was Amos who was termed a minor prophets by theologians that said the Lord God does nothing except He reveals it to his servant the prophets. He alos prophesied the restoration of Israle and the coming of the messianic age, that is by no regard the words of a minor prophet(.Amos 9:11-15)

Thank you, I suspected was out of depth in major vs minor prophets thing. Thanks again

Sorry scripture never called Paul a prophet. He was an apostle, Paul could only prophesy, he wasn't operating under the office of a prophet.The primary objective of the Office of the Prophet must be to equip every believer for the work of ministry. Prophets
represent a foundational ministry in the Church, since they provide the framework of reference and patterns for accessing the mind of God. According to the Apostle James in James 5:10, the Prophet always spoke in the name of the Lord. They spoke as the substitute or representative of the Lord. They were the mouthpieces of God; therefore their behaviour had to conform to the character and purpose of God.

Was Paul a teacher/pastor/evangelist?
Does the scripture ever call him thus?

You do not call a word of knowledge a prophecy. Familiar spirits could also operate in this regard, because i could tell you the date of your birth and your house address and phone number using the word of knowledge doesn't mean i had prophesied to you. Words of wisdom can be a prophecy because it is actually foretelling a future occurrence which is yet to take place and this is the mark of a true prophet from a false one. The devil cannot tell you the future, only God can. Moses even made the distinction in Deuteronomy 18:22.
I read a book about understanding prophetic dimensions by Noel woodroffe, i think a friend of mine coveted the book. . Wish i could lay hold of it to expand the distinctions. Please if you could get a hold of the book it will solve some of your questions here.

I will look for the book. You are a great resource bro. Thank you very much
Prophets also could tell things they could only know by the Spirit without foretelling. Elisha and Gehazi is a perfect example.


I want a Biblical distinction between 'office' and 'gift' of prophecy. I find none except we stick to extra-Biblical subjective definitions

Scriptures please

Thanks
[size=4pt]

Gombs:
[size=4pt]PROPHECY IS A GIFT OF THE SPIRIT[/size]

1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

As a gift of the Spirit the operation of a gift of prophecy is to bring forth an inspired utterance. That is, the Holy Spirit reveals the heart of God through a thought, a vision, an audible voice, or an impression. Mba has named the purposed of the gift of prophecy.

[size=4pt]THE OFFICE OF PROPHET[/size]

The office of the prophet in the New Testament is one of the five fold ministries. It must be handled as seriously as one would approach being a pastor. It is a calling of God. It requires a time of divine preparation. It needs to be recognized by and in mutual submission to other five fold ministries. Lone Ranger prophet are false prophets.

Bidam has alreaddy explained further.

thanks

[/size]

What's the difference?

Gombs:
The gift of prophecy is not the same as being a prophet. QED

Nlmediator has got this covered.

Really?

Gombs:
^^
The Word of God Oyaks is fresh as ever!

Bidam:
All believers are not called into the prophetic office(Eph 4:11) but Paul encourage believers to desire spiritual gifts especially that of prophecy(1 cor 14:1). A believer can both forthtell and foretell but that doesn't automatically put him/her into the prophetic office. It takes time and tutelege before that honour is conferred by God to an individual.God doesn't appoint novices.Example is Saul who later became Paul. He was a teacher in Acts 13:1 before he was later separated from his company to be an apostle with Barnabas who also i believe to be a prophet.

Excellent submission
Corrections
1. Saul did not become Saul, he was both Saul and Paul. One name was use among Gentiles, the other among Jews. That's how Jews named their kids

2. Who/where is it written that prophets need time and tutelage? You have just witnessed Spirit of the Living GOd come upon some people and they prophesied and Moses desires that everybody was a Prophet. Obviously they were prophets else that statement is illogical.


1 Samuel 19:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?

Here, all it took was for Saul to prophesy to be regarded as a prophet

Believers in general can function in the gift of prophecy even though there are boundaries to their ministry gift functions( Romans 12:6). It is God predetermined purpose that His people prophesy(Joel 2:28). Infact, it should be the natural ability of every Spirit-filled believer to prophesy( Acts 2:17-18). And that was why Paul exhibited this gift like the example you gave about the shipwreck even though he wasn't called into the prophetic office. The same Paul encourages the Church at thessalonica not to despise prophecies.

I can agree that the boundaries to a gift are limited by God and also their level of faith. This may be explains why we had Minor/Major prophets denoting their jurisdiction ( I may be wrong). But you haven't explained the difference between the 'prophetic office' and gift of prophecy. I believe Paul was a Prophet. Who said one can only be either?

Though people make mistakes and abuse this gift. It is actually done by Faith. I remembered when i gave the prophecy concerning a woman about giving birth to a child, it just came by inspiration, i wanted to tell myself to shut up but i couldn't, the words came in tongues and i interpreted it. It was just a knowing in my spirit. I couldn't explain it. But that doesn't mean i am a prophet, neither did i go about prophesying to folks because i operated the gift that day. This is the error we should be careful and wary of. Some many "so called prophets" have done more damage than good to the body of Christ in this regard.

Even the so called prophets NT or OT don't ALWAYS have a ready word for everyone or every situation. Foretelling and forthtelling is not automatic even for prophets. This means somebody prophesying once does not disqualify them from being a prophet. If I said you had a word of knowledge and not prophecy, would I be wrong?
There is no clear definition of these gifts and sometimes I think we may innocently call one the other.

Paul the Apostle received two types of offerings;
1. Support for the poor saints in Jerusalem
2. His own upkeep

In 1, he was rather aggressive and never hesitated to collect the same from the impoverished and afflicted Macedonians. There is no guilt in poor people supporting the poor within and even outside their means. That's real love

In 2, he was quite hesitant especially when ministering among the poor. It was a right he preached about and he severally forfeited it.he never wanted to burden anybody.

All exhortations to sacrificial giving today are usually taken from 1 and misapplied to 2
Exhortations based around 2 are usually ignored

The reason is clear; greed. If present ministers applied 2, they'd collect much less. If they applied 1, they'd collect much more. But they don't want to do 1 because immediate beneficiaries are the really needy. 1 which is what benefits them is at best ignonred

Excellent sermonette
https://www.nairaland.com/393253/rhapsody-realities-daily-devotional/10#8544286

mabell:
Don’t Break The Hedge! – Friday June 10, 2011 – Pastor Chris
He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him (Ecclesiastes 10:.


Every child of God has a spiritual force-field around him; it’s a hedge of protection that repels the enemy. Did you ever read about Job in the Bible? Satan had tried unsuccessfully to attack the man, and so he asked God, “Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side?” (Job 1:10).

Even satan acknowledged that there was a hedge of protection round about Job and everything he had, until Job unfortunately breached it through his wrong confessions as revealed in Job 3:23-26: “Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath hedged in? For my sighing cometh before I eat, and my roarings are poured out like the waters. For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me. I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.”

Here was a man who even satan acknowledged was hedged and divinely protected by God, yet he said “I was not in safety.” Little wonder he suffered terribly and lost everything he had to satan; He broke the hedge of protection placed around him by God through his negative confession. How important it is for us to keep speaking forth faith-filled words and not fear! Negative confessions breach the hedge of protection God has placed around you.

No child of God ought to experience sudden calamities or be overtaken by dire misfortunes; because there’s a hedge of protection around everyone one of us. No matter how the enemy tries to come at you, the Spirit of God will erect a repellent barrier against him: “…When the enemy shall come in, like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him {and} put him to flight [for He will come like a rushing stream which the breath of the Lord drives]” (Isaiah 59:19 AMP). But guess what? He does it through you, for He functions and carries out His ministry in the earth through His kids.

So it’s your responsibility to fortify the hedge of protection placed around you by God and extend its perimeter. How? By talking right, and then also by praying in tongues! When you feel the pressures of life coming at you; maybe at your job, business, academics or in any area of your life, that’s not the time to cry, cower or talk fear! Instead, pray fervently in other tongues and talk your faith up until the power of God inundates your whole being and saturates the environment. As you do this often, the spiritual force-field around you gets wider and wider, repelling the enemy farther and farther.

Prayer

Dear Father, thank you for your hedge of protection around me. The perimeter of that hedge is activated to keep satan and the forces of darkness at bay, in the Name of Jesus. Amen.

Further Study

Psalm 125:2-3

As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever. For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous; lest the righteous put forth their hands unto iniquity.
James 4:7

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Daily Scripture Reading

1 Year Bible Acts 2:1-21

Reading plan 2 Chronicles 5-7



2 Year Bible Mark 16:12-20

Reading Plan Deuteronomy 8



Rhapsody of Realities Pastor Chris Oyakhilome

When a non-Christian witnesses merchandising of the gospel, would you advise them to steer clear of Christianity?

WinsomeX:
I agree with this point whole heartedly. Especially the bolded.

I listen to TV and radio jingles of these miracle merchants and there is no end to their advertisement. Not once did Christ or his apostles do this. In fact Jesus will even ask people to be silent about his miracles.

Now when you advertise Open Heavens, Nights of Bliss, Experience, Healing Schools, Atmosphere for Miracles, Signs and Wonders, you are saying you have some inherent powers in you, like Simon Magus that great power from God, to carry out miracles. The best way to do this is to empty the hospitals and morgues and then we would take you seriously. Until then, what you are doing has no basis in scriptures.

Imagine Satan seeking Jesus worship. 1100 days or so later you know what was disarmed at the cross


Colossians 2:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


That's my King!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqTFNfeDnE

sonOfLucifer:
I do not need to fashion any curse against you. The yoke of yahweh has you ensnared in a cesspool of ignorance. No greater curse can be fashioned.

You only need to read that passage again slowly. The prophet is one operating the gift of prophecy. The one operating the gift of prophecy is a prophet. So he starts with one and ends up with the other and vice versa

nlMediator:
Incorrect. Paul never said the person that has the gift of prophecy in Corinthians is a prophet. Nor did he ever say that prophets always comfort, exhort or edify. But he said so of the gift of prophecy. Either Paul is contradicting himself or we have to take him at his word.

Where does Paul say 'Comfort, exhort, edify' is what gift of prophecy does? Just asking not disputing

nlMediator:
I never said they were mutually exclusive. I said they don't always go together. Now tell me where the comfort, exhortation or edification is in Agabus prophecy about Paul going to Jerusalem. Or Elijah telling Ahab that it would not rain for 3 and half years? Or Elisha telling Ahab and Jehoshephat that they would lose the battle the following day? These contradict the definition of the gift of prophecy as given by Paul. That means one can prophesy when prophesying has nothing to with the parameters of the gift of prophecy, I.e. Comfort, exhort, edify. The converse is also true: one can comfort, edify or exhort without doing what a prophet traditionally does, which is see into the supernatural. It's not enough to say that they jive sometimes. They have to jive all the time for Paul's definition to make sense.

1. In the scriptures, there is no distinction between the 'office' of a prophet and the 'gift' of prophecy
2. In the scriptures, one exercising the 'gift' of prophecy is regarded as a prophet
3. You don't have people prophesying not regarded as prophets

Gombs:
You are contradicting yourself . Now, let's make it plain! What are your core points above?

Glib
You are being asked to be reasonable instead of making wild allegations and illogical statements the illogic of which prove you 'right'

shdemidemi:
I think you are at sea with my argument, I will bring it home a bit more if it that will help. I never questioned Paul's miracles, or Peter's or Jesus'. These were miracles that turned the world on its head, hey, they were mighty Works.

1)Peter, Paul and Jesus(man) never said they had any power within them to do the supernatural.

2)God constantly used them at this period to usher in the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

3)My earlier post radiate around the fact that these Apostles never had the power to heal anyone or everyone they feel deserve supernatural healing from God, they merely latched on what God by His Spirit was doing at the time. The Apostles never had a will of their own, they never had an agenda either. They knew who the master was and they abandoned their lives as slaves(bond servants) to be used as He had purposed. Peter will slay a man's ear on Jesus' behalf and Jesus will yet wrought a miracle by fixing the ear but yet surrender himself to be killed. At that point even Peter who seemingly lacked spiritual understanding would have expected Jesus to employ some form of supernatural resistance.

The miracle was there quite alright for Jesus to call fire from heaven to consume his enemies but He submitted to the will of heaven which is his right service from a slave to His master.

4)Some folks who claim they have the ability to heal have not made impact in the unbelieving world like the Apostles who never made such claims did. The works of the Apostles turned the then world on its head, people were never in doubt of the power that accompanied there message but it was mostly a question of if you were ready to face the persecutions that will inevitably arise when you accept the gospel they preached.




Isn't this the argument, do you think Peter would rather raise a stranger to his friend and fellow worker? If these people had the innate power to wrought miracles they would not only raise their friends they will help themselves in times of trouble. But these power ultimately was God's and they were mere tools God used to display His divinity for the world to see. The charismatic and WoF oriented people have turned it the other way round as though they have the power to make God do what they want Him to do. My request for them to prove this ability to make God act when they want Him to remains valid. If Peter, Paul and Jesus could not use God but was always used by God, those who think they have the power to use Him should stand up and show us what the cessassionists are missing.

When the Lord says so, not when you fashion curses against me.

sonOfLucifer:
Do not be scared. Death will come when it does.

When you look at Paul shipwrecked telling them that they will survive but the ship will be lost, I'd say that's foretelling and comforting at the same time. So foretelling and 'comfort,exhortation and edification' are not mutually exclusive.

We see Paul equating the one prophesying to a prophet. Do we have precedents in the OT?


Numbers 11:27-29 King James Version (KJV)
27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord'S people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!
So a prophesying person is a prophet. Philip's daughters prophesied, they were prophets

nlMediator:
I think the distinction is not between one who prophesies and a prophet, but about the gift of prophecy and the work of a prophet. Paul says in Corinthians that the gift of prophecy is for comfort, exhortation and edification. Nothing there says anything about foretelling, which is what a prophet does. And a prophet can tell the future in a manner that does not comfort, exhort or edify. E.g. Agabus' prophecy about Paul going to Jerusalem. Thus one who comforts, exhorts or edifies may be exercising the gift of prophecy, but it doesn't make that one a prophet, until such a person can also see into the supernatural and tell what exists there.

The Lord rebuke you!
I will not die, I will live to declare the goodness of the LORD in the land of the living.
Keep your curses to yourself and multiply them sevenfold against you in Jesus name

sonOfLucifer:
Perish like the fools killed by TB Joshuas building? The fools falling for Joe Agbajes miracles? You are a fucking hypocrite and you irritate me.

Quit stalking me, follow Christ or perish with your god of this world

sonOfLucifer:
No shame whatsoever.

What's more entertaining that a shameless display of ignorance! Were they all farmers?

Image123:
Here is a kind of the dishonesty and ultimate uselessness of engaging you and your likes. Was Israel not agrarian?

Amen

When you say people who don't know McArthur are illiterate, what do you expect?
I had missed that portion of your thread BTW. Thanks nlmediator for pointing it out

WinsomeX:
If you have said "OK" to that post I addressed to you, I will expect you will engage the issues raised. These general tendency to condemn all is what you criticize in my engaging WoF and I wouldn't expect you to be doing the same thing here.

I have painstakingly provided summaries to each presentation, engage those.

If you think someone is deifying Calvin or MacArthur, state where.

Pls lets show some maturity or I will be forced to think you prefer the brick batting which says a lot about the religion one professes.

And the same goes to you to vooks.

I only knew of McArthur through an article on the Strange Fire conference earlier this year. I suppose I was illiterate until then.

When you look at Seventh Day Adventists, their reverence for Ellen G White, you find little difference between these who idolize Calvin.
Where are the modern John Knox and Calvin? What are they doing? All they do is whine about the visible Charismatics and engage in nostalgia. Calvin did this,he did that by this age bla de bla......

nlMediator:
Sad to see you deify a human being. Imagine if anybody did the same with their favorite Christian leader? You'll be here quoting all manner of Scripture. Not knowing MacArthur connotes or even denotes Biblical illiteracy? Didn't know he was somewhere in the Bible that anybody studying the bible would see him there. Interesting.

Trust men to explain away their impotence

nlMediator:
Frankly, I don't know whether you think through your ideas sometimes. Because they're so preposterous it's hard to imagine that an adult is making such submissions. No wonder when the illogic of your conclusions is presented to you, you start throwing tantrums. To qualify the validity and presence of healing power by a stipulation that all or even a majority be healed is manifestly absurd. Jesus did not resurrect John the Baptist. Peter did not rescue or resurrect James the apostle. Paul did not raise from the dead the Corinthians that died from taking the communion wrongly. If a non-Christian used any of these examples to say that Jesus, Peter or Paul lacked healing power and never raised anyone from the dead or were heartless, Christians would not take such a person seriously. Somehow, you expect your equivalent submission to be given serious attention?