₦airaland Forum

Abraham got me covered? Did he cover my tithing as well?

If there is NO difference whatsoever between a circumcised and uncircumcised Christian, is circumcision of ANY value to a believer?

Gombs:
well, Abraham's got you covered...

Romans 4:11 ESV
He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,
.

Read the article first

makazona:
yet another hypothesis

Tithing is as sacred as offering burnt offerings and observing Feasts. Correct me if I am wrong

asodeboyede:
Please what is exactly your stand on tithes? Because all I could deduce from your lines, are strong emissions against the sacred act of tithing!

Thank you WInsomex
Interesting post.
Spiritual gifts or charimatic are repeatedly characterized as means of new revelation in his speech. Do you find that in order?

WinsomeX:
I will still be providing a summary on MacArthur opening speech but I felt I should reproduce Nora link on Mbewe article on Nigerian religious Junk.

vooks, I believe we are saying the same thing. There is nothing wrong with it. You may read that post you quoted again

www.nairaland.com/2018507/nigerian-religious-junk#28402950

But he is not suing because he went under despite giving, he is suing because the church never stood with him. Was he giving so the church would help him out in times of trouble?

That's a mumu.

PastorKun:
Actually the church is liable. Churches promise their members financial prosperity if they tithe. They also promise that no devourer shall affect their finances. In the case of this man the financial prosperity promise did not materialise, his finances got devoured and the church even refused to do it's primary responsibility of bringing succour to down trodden members. I believe he has a very good case, he should go ahead and sue. Hopefully he would win the case and other tithe scammers would learn from it.

Excellent,
Is it possible to offer God ANYTHING without going through 'the church,His Body'?

I have in mind offerings/sacrifices such as ourselves, praise...and so forth

Image123:
If that is indeed excellent and your words have meaning, i hope you won't be repeating these line of questioning in future and acting oblivious of these. I say this because it is very common of the others, and it is the syndrome scripture described as "ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth". Tithe is given to God through the church, His body. We are His Body, the church. No person is more entitled over the other. For administrative purposes, tithes and offerings are given centrally in a congregation. It's not paid into an individual's account, normally. Thereafter, each church administration (which may be different) uses these provisions as determined or decided. There is nothing wrong with some order, and nothing stops any believer from giving alms of any percentage.

Gombs,
It is very clear that circumcision does not avail salvation. It is not a condition for salvation. There are many things which don't save like spiritual gifts or fasting but are VERY important. I hold that Paul's circumcising Timothy ONLY under pressure and not circumcising Titus at all is the best proof of the fact that circumcision has ZERO value to a believer. You don't agree. You said when we circumcise, we are 'identifying with the promiset'.

Gombs:
We've said it here, physical circumcision only means you identify with the promises, but it does not make you righteous.

Could you please answer these questions;

1. Exactly what do you mean when you say that circumcision 'identifies us with the promise?'
2. Does CE teach circumcision as a necessity of 'identifying with the promise'?
3. If I am not circumcised and hence do not 'identify with the promise' what am I missing?

Gombs:
^^
Do you still maintain Circumcision was for Israel and Israel alone? Let us start from there.

Vooks, you've said your bit, me mine... let the readers see and discern which is true by God's Spirit. Thanks

My broda,
Paul circumcised Timothy under pressure. That was a very light concession seeing Timothy was half Jew. But he was uncircumcised as an adult.

Acts 16:3 (ESV)
3 Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

Can it get clearer than this verse. Repeat after me, 'he took him and circumcised him BECAUSE of the Jews'.....am not a fault finder so I hope and pray you learn something and not play dumb, you goofed.

The idea of Paul actions in Acts contradicting his epistles is pure garbage. Here is why.

Galatians 2:3 (ESV)
3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek.
The events described in this verse took place in Jerusalem. Paul and Titus RESISTED all pressure to circumcise him. What you don't have is the record of Titus in Jerusalem in Acts but recall the resistance was because there was pressure from the Jews in the first place. So whatever Paul did in their(Jews) face is recorded for Gentiles in Galatians

Gombs:
I doubt the above. Paul was a staunch Jew (He gave his CV too), infact, he was so jew that he had to do much to come minister to them, even after Jesus clearly stated his ministry was to the Gentiles.

I thonk you meant He circumcised Timothy because he was under pressure from the jews. I hope you can see you're wrong and take corrrection? Timothy, was half greek and half Jew, though the apostles resolution was that circumcision should not be a basis for being saved. He yeah, bowed to pressure of the Jews and circumvented the resolution. He circumcised Timothy who was a new convert, just to please the Jews who were taught one has to be circumcised before saved.

Later, there was another instance where Paul did his best to conform to Jewish practices. When he got to Jerusalem the local church expressed its concern:'
… it is said that you teach all the Jews in the gentile world to turn their backs on Moses, telling them to give up circumcising their children and following our way of life. What is the position then?' (Acts 21: 21-22, New English Bible)

Christian leaders in Jerusalem, knew that this idea was extremely controversial, and called on Paul for guidance. Paul did not answer their question directly. [b]He affirmed that he instructed gentile converts to abstain from fornication and a few other rules. [size=20pt]He said that he followed the law. [/size][/b]However, nothing is recorded as directly refuting the charge that he had been advising Jews to turn their backs on Moses and to stop circumcising their children.

In any case, the whole point was lost in an enormous melee that resulted in Paul being arrested at Jerusalem and finally sent to Rome. Paul's actions about circumcision in Acts are noticeably different from the thoughts he expressed in his letters. Some of this may be due to the fact that he was dealing with Jews in Acts whereas in his letters he was writing to Gentiles.

Another difference is that Acts writes about his actions whereas in his letters, Paul is writing for himself. However, there does appear to be a development of his thought on the subject. When his letters are examined in the order in which they appear in the New Testament, his attitude to circumcision as a requisite for salvation becomes steadily more hostile.

My broda,
But circumcision was NEVER retained for ANY reason. Acts 15 Council did more than clarify that circumcision was not necessary for salvation; it was dismissed altogether as a burden. Proof of this is, Paul ONLY circumcised to avoid the bugging unbelieveing Jews. If there was ANY benefit ( which you can't name but Gombs calls 'identifying with the covenant' but can't substantiate) Paul would have circumcised more readily than only when pressured by non-believers.

So circumcision among Gentiles was not a noble practice abused like spiritual gifts in Corinth,for which proper use needed emphasis, it was an unnecessary BURDEN

Galatians 2:3 (ESV)
3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek.

Acts 16:3 (ESV) 3 Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek

Why would Paul stay with an uncircumcised Gentile Timothy UNTIL he visits Jerusalem? Why couldn't he circumcise him earlier? Because circumcision was totally useless and irrelevant for a Christian. In Jerusalem, his haterz,nitpickers would not have hesitated to remind everyone that he hang around uncircumcised Gentiles. So he just went along, made a concession for peace sake

Note Titus remained uncircumcised

mbaemeka:
^^Total rubbish- provide one verse that says so. Circumcision was not completely dismissed by anybody. It was dismissed as a condition for being saved. The same way someone is not saved because they observed the 10 Commandments the way they would have been in the OT. That's the same way I am allowed to tithe without feeling it makes me righteous. However, the blessing of tithing is still intact as is the blessing of everything pre-law and in-law.

Cults are adept at revisionism. They revise history. But history is stubborn

Certified board idi0t..
Charity is not a right he is entitled to

This is bad news for the haterz

Is there anything wrong with Holy Spirit speaking that which is in the scriptures?

WinsomeX:
Earlier when vooks asked me whether I was cessationist or continuationist I couldn't answer him because while I share a lot or views with cessationists, I think that they insisting the Holy Spirit never speaks is wrong. That scripture clearly says the Holy Spirit speaks. So when I said: "But the Holy Spirit is not saying anything beyond what he has already said in scriptures", I meant:

The Holy Spirit still speaks to Christians but he doesn't speak beyond what he authored in scriptures. The Holy Spirit will speak scriptures to us; he will birth life wisdom into us from the scriptures; he will remind us of biblical truths; he will show things to come. But the Holy Spirit will not say anything in disagreement with the spirit of scriptures.

Example:

Since the Holy Spirit never authored scriptures to imply that Christians should tithe, the Holy Spirit will NEVER instruct Christians to tithe. He may compel us to give but not tithe.

The Holy Spirit will never instruct a man to divorce his wife.

The Holy Spirit will never instruct anyone to build a conglomerate in the name of ministry.

The Holy Spirit will never instruct the church to ordain gay bishops.

The Holy Spirit will never instruct church people to eat grass; or female members to sleep with their pastors to get pregnant and break the hold of barrenness.

The Holy Spirit will always instruct on the path of righteousness and truth.

This is what I mean by the Holy Spirit not saying anything outside what he has said in scriptures.

How do you know?

Yooguyz:
What you don't know is that alfa is not a real satanist, he is an atheistic satanist. He doesn't believe in the stuffs he post here on nairaland.

Waiting

shdemidemi:
Using my mobile at the minute, response might be short.

I believe bible spoke of two different kind of tongues.

No. Coming to Christ is not confirmation of nothing, just stated as a matter of fact

nlMediator:
Good. But when Peter preached that same period and thousands came out for salvation, it was not God confirming Peter's message?

Excellent.
Now, walk me through why anybody is entitled to collect tithes over the others in the body of Christ seeing ALL are priests. Can I collect your tithes? Can you collect mine?

Image123:
At lastttttttt. Almost had to squeeze it out of you, the answers. So let's have a recap.
QUESTIONS.

---

1. Is Jesus the Christian's High Priest?
2. Are christians priests?
3. If Melchisedek received tithe 'without commandment', what hinders others?
4. Are we under commandment (the law).?
I trust you would answer these questions straight and plainly before shifting the goal.

---

Unfortunate that you couldn't keep to the trust by answering the questions first. So your answers are;



Mark is of the opinion that "the sons of Levi are to receive the tithes... Levites are to take God's holy tithes, not pastors who are not of the lineage and dscendancy of Levi."
From what you seem to be saying in answer 4, we are not under the law. Therefore, Mark needs an update. The Levites were under the law, we are not.
On answer 3, you beat around the bush both grammatically and logically and spiritually. Believers are priests after the order of Melchisedek BECAUSE their High Priest(Jesus) is of that order.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

The priesthood has been changed, this should be no newsflash for any Bible student. There is made of necessity a change also of the law. We are no more under the law where tithes go to the levitical priesthood. As Jesus is, so are WE. We are His body, He is the Head. What we do to the church(the Body of Christ), we have done to Christ. i trust hope i do not need to show you the scriptures that say these things.

You are the king of that Game.

Image123:
You did not fully answer my questions until here 4:52pm, don't be mischievous. Now, while i might endure and tolerate your absurdities, this is my last warning to you on your rudeness and insults. You may need to go home and ask your superiors on how to address others in public. Apart from being a professing christian, courtesy and forum rules demand that you don't abuse, deliberately insult/provoke any Nairaland member. i don't engage people who have no manners. You can convey your points in a mannerly way. Grace, home training, discipline, maturity all help with that. BTW i'd rather wish your repentance/change, not apologies.

Sure

nlMediator:
When Peter preached at Cornelius' home and the Holy Spirit fell on the people, was that a confirmation by God of Peter's message of salvation?

The biggest error cessationists make is assuming that spiritual gifts ADD(ED) to the existing revelation. Even in the first century, the gifts did not necessarily ADD to the then scriptures. A quick example is on Pentecost. How much of scriptures were added by the tongues from the Upper Room? Those who understood them heard the disciples 'magnifying God' What about Philip's seven daughters who 'prophesied'? The contents of their prophecies is not scriptural. Paul says a believer praying in tongues does not even understand what they are saying except they interpret. Tongues therefore when u interpreted are not revelatory.

So if these gifts can exist without adding to the revelation of scriptures, 'completeness' of scripture revelation would not necessitate their cessation. It also means existence of these gifts was not borne out of the insufficiency of revelation namely absence of the NT Canon as commonly taught by cessationists

WinsomeX:
[There are many scriptural evidence that points to the fact that the bible is God's sufficient revelation to the world. God is not saying anything outside what he has said in the bible.

This is the God's way to us to test falsehood. Anything new must be compared to the truth of scriptures. The fact that we have Christians having difficulty seeing the bible as God's sufficient revelation to humanity is the reason error reigns today.

See:

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Jude 3

KJV:Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

ESV:Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

NIV:Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

AMP:Beloved, my whole concern was to write to you in regard to our common salvation. [But] I found it necessary and was impelled to write you and urgently appeal to and exhort [you] to contend for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints [the faith which is that sum of Christian belief which was delivered verbally to the holy people of God].

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

In physics there might be a need to calibrate measuring instruments after years of usage due to the fact that they maybe loosing their edge for accuracy. What is usually done is to compare the instrument meant for calibration with a machine that maintains 100% accuracy. Anywhere the instrument lacks accuracy, it is quickly adjusted.

The same goes with the bible and the Christian walk. Our walk with God is extremely error prone. The bible is our means of "calibration" to restore us back to the path of truth. Can you now imagine this same bible needing "calibration"; that is, the bible is not complete but requires occasional update through new revelations?

Jude told us that the gospel was delivered ONCE AND FOR ALLto us; it is not lacking anything.

Again, when the truth of the sufficiency of scriptures is belittled, it allows for all sort of errors to wade in.

Unibenstudent,
Study this too if you love Wisdom and Truth
http://www.letusreason.org/sacna5.htm
http://www.letusreason.org/sacra6.htm

Unibenstudent,
Which of this is the proper name of Jesus Christ?

Choose one, but you better be absolutely right. Is it -Yeshua, Yesha, Yeshuah, Yehshua, Yehshuah, YESHUAH, YEHSHUAH, YAHUSUHWA, YAHOOSHUA ,YHWHSOSANA, Yeshouah, Y'shua, Y'shuah, Yeshu, Yashua, Yashuah, Yahshua, Yehoshua, Yehooshuah, YHVHShua, YHVHShuah, Yhvhshua, Yhwhshua, Iahoshua, Iahoshuah, Iahushua, or Iahushuah YHWHShua, YHWHShuah, Yhvhshuah, Yhwhshuah, Yahvehshua, Yahwehshua, Yahvehshuah, Yahwehshuah, Yahushuah, Yaohushua, Yaohushuah?

What about Jehovah?
Yah, Yahweh, Yahvah, Yahveh, Iahueh, and Yaohu

My broda, you can't beat them at Obtuse Game.
How do you ask a question, receive answer and then insist it has not been answered?

Image123 and his entire brains thinks that because Melchizedek collected a tithe 'without commandment', and we are not under the law, then collecting the tithe does not have to follow the Law. So if modern tithe collectors are not Levites, no biggie

The irony of it all is, if it is no longer obligatory to pay tithes to Levites since Melchizedek was no Levite yet he collected it from Abraham, why do we even settle at 10%? WHy can't we collect 10% and go throw it into the river since we are not under the Law? While at it we can also burn it. There is no Law governing our tithing anyway. Why should there be Law on the AMOUNT, 10%? And why should we collect it regularly?

Who makes all these laws for people not 'under commandment'?

pea-brained arguments

Goshen360:

Ol boy, you get some dangerous upper cuts I have ever seen.

You never asked a question
There remains NO benefit from not circumcising,keeping Feasts and so forth. Why stop at tithes, go the whole mile

Image123:
There remains NO benefit from not tithing, simple yes or no. No need throwing tantrums over simple straight and basic questions.

Not we are not. So it beats me that trousers on women gives you fits

Image123:
Are we under commandment (the law).?

Study these and then engage me
http://www.letusreason.org/sacna%202.htm
http://www.letusreason.org/sacna3.htm

Unibenstudent:
am on break ! Will resume argument later!

He had time to read all about Yahweh and Yahshua but can't read the truth and receive deliverance
pray for him

nora544:
I can tell you that in German what is the most spoken language in europa we say Jesus or Jesus christ.

For christmas we say that the Christkind (german Kind is child in german) which mean in englich Christchild is coming.

We never use this words Yahweh and yeshua.

I am realy sorry that you couldnot read this two links.

IF you are continuing tithing because there are NO benefits for not doing so, you may as well throw in a bunch of other stuff..circumcision,Feasts,Sabbath.....Freewill animal offerings......it is absurd and I'd be shocked if it hit you

Image123:
In other words, you agree with what I stated.

Well done my brother,
Rejoice not in that demons are subject to you but rather that your name is in the Book of life

You are blessed beyond measure

lastmessenger:
I guess he is very weak or may have died as a result of the injury that I inflicted on him. You need to see how I messed him up.

How comes he is not commenting? Did you kill him?

lastmessenger:
This is not devils trick. Alfaseltzer knows what he does at night but the biggest mistake he is making is that he is trying somebody who has obtained enough powers from the most high.

Nice try,
These are cessasionists. Even the Biblically recorded manifestations happening anywhere after 96AD is not of God. Tongues for instance. Must be demonic. What vindicates a cessassionist more than observing what they believe is long ceased among non-Christians?

WinsomeX:
He said a lot more than just comparing them to pagan practices. The point he is making is that if a so called Christian practice has more examples in paganism and non at all in the bible, it is safe to conclude such is not Christian.

So pagans pray. Fine. But Jesus and his disciples prayed too. So prayer is scriptural.

Pagan laugh in the spirit, roll on the floor, make animal sounds, etc. Jesus and his disciples didn't do such. So such practices are not Christian.

It is unfair to God's Holy Spirit to claim that bc his ways are mysterious then he can carry out manifestations today he didn't do in scriptures. If that is so and we expected to prove all things by a given standard, hopefully scriptures, where do we find these manifestations.

I think you should read the text of those conferences with less prejudice.