₦airaland Forum

OLAADEGBU: You don't need to scan the internet for rebuttals, Russel Kelly's partner in crime has been on this thread spreading the gospel according to his master. Just tell us whether you are one of his disciples so that I don't have to waste my time responding to those whose minds are already made up and don't want to be confused with the facts.

Sproul: When we think of tithing in Old Testament categories, we understand that the requirement involves returning to God the first fruits of one’s prosperity.

Kelly: Wrong. First-fruits and tithes were never the same thing in the OT. In Deuteronomy 26:1-4 firstfruits are very small token offerings which would fit into a small hand-carried basket. The first wave sheaf at Pentecost was but a single sheaf for the nation. And Nehemiah 10:35-38 makes it clear that first-fruits are not tithes. In 1st Timothy 5:8 Paul tells Christians to first buy medicine, food and essential shelter in order to avoid being worse than the heathen. It is wrong to delude poor struggling believers into giving the first of their Social Security and Medicaid checks to the church. Not even James Kennedy, Sproul's former companion, taught that.

Sproul: One of the earliest (turn of the second century) extrabiblical documents that survives to this day is the book of the Didache. The Didache gives practical instruction for Christian living. In the Didache, the principle of the giving of the first fruits or the tithe is mentioned as a basic responsibility for every Christian.


Kelly: [b]Firstfruits, yes. Tithes, never. [/b]It is amazing that Sproul omitted the names of Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexander and Tertullian who opposed tithing. Paragraph XI says "if he (the evangelist) asks for money he is a false prophet. Paragraph XII says that evangelists who want to stay must get a job. Paragraph XIII says to give first-fruits to the prophet or to the poor. It is shameful to ignore Paragraphs XI and XII.

OLAADEGBU: You seem to be a late comer to this thread as this has been covered many pages back. Let me reproduce an article I posted addressing the issue at hand:

OLAADEGBU: I don't know what you are looking for, at least it shows the principles of tithe and offering.

The Didache (c.a. 100 A.D.), also called The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, contains numerous references to giving. In 1:5–6, the text discusses the sharing of resources among Christians. The only possible allusion to tithing could be the statement that giving should be done “according to the commandment.” However, since 1:6 says, “Let your charitable gift sweat in your hands until you know to whom you are giving it,” it appears that the Mosaic law of tithing is not the referent since responsibility is placed within the giver as to the worthiness of the recipient. The Didache exhorts Christians to be givers rather than takers (1:5; 4:5–8; 5:2; 15:4). It contains one statement similar to statements in Acts 2 and 4 about communalism (4:. The text includes teaching similar to 1 Corinthians 9:14, that ministers of the gospel have a right to live from the gospel (11:6, 12; 13:1–2). 13:3–7 discusses how Christians are to give first fruits, stating that prophets are Christians’ high priest. However, it does not equate first fruits with a portion that is the (Divine) right of ministers of the gospel: “If, however, you have no prophet [minister of the gospel], give [the first fruits] to the poor” (13:4). Finally, 13:7 says to take the first fruits of “money and clothing and whatever [else] you own as you think best and give them according to the commandment.” A problem occurs when the text says both to give “as you think best” and to give “according to the commandment.” Some have said this is a contradiction. However, the phrase “as you think best” refers to the items that are considered liable to first fruits and “according to the commandment” probably refers to the instructions just given.

OLAADEGBU: Have you read the didache?

mbaemeka: Vooks,

Your logic flies in the face of God's word.

What is the will of God= that we become Christians (John 6:40)
What is not doing the Father's will= rejecting Christ (remaining unsaved)

Who will say Lord Lord and still enter the kingdom of Heaven? Christians.

Who will say Lord Lord and still not enter the kingdom? Non- Christians.

Who will Jesus deny knowing? Non- Christians.

Can a non-Christian do a miracle in Jesus name? No.

Paul said in Romans 10:13 and Peter said in Acts 2:21 that WHOEVER shall call on that name [in Faith] shall be saved.

But what do we have? We have pseudo-spiritualists telling us that sinners would use the name of Jesus and remain unsaved.

Another question, if you would respond or evade it as usual: Can you show me anywhere that says a Christian went to hell or was castaway? I will wait.

mbaemeka: The blood of a baby is gotten from who? From Whom did Jesus get his blood?

What did Peter mean in 1 Peter 1:19 and can you tell us the greek translation for the word Precious as used there? Why do you think Jesus blood was the only one capable of saving the world of men?

Mysticism you said. How risible.

mbaemeka: Jesus was fully human even if he had "no human blood" according to your construction. The blood he had was not smeared by sin because it came from his father. Is that too hard to understand?

mbaemeka: The answer is in his statement and reply. He said MANY will SAY to him and not many who DID will SAY to him. And then his reply is the clincher- I NEVER KNEW YOU. You who worked iniquity A.K.A you sinner.

How can Jesus say he never knew someone who made demands in his name that caused the Holy Spirit to act?

Because that person rebelled against the Will of the Father. Jesus is telling you that no amount of miracles will save you if you are outside Father's will

Learn to think and apply logic.
Doing Father's will= entering kingdom of Heaven.
Not doing Father's will= missing Kingdom of heaven
missing Kingdom of heaven= Those that Jesus never knew

Therefore
Jesus never knowing you= not doing Father's will
So if you are not doing Father's Will, Jesus never knew you.


Do you know you insult the name of Jesus to suggest that sinners could use it to achieve anything? Do you know that a sinner who uses the name of Jesus to wrought a miracle will automatically cease to be a sinner?

That is the gospel according to mbaemeka. That miracles is a measure of righteousness. You will perish with your miracles. Paul was careful not to be a reprobate after saving others

1 Corinthians 9:27 King James Version (KJV)

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


Where do you people pick all these teachings from?

From the Word of God not traditions of heretics

mbaemeka: Let me quote scriptures again to help your understanding. 1 Peter 1:19 says Jesus blood was precious and spotless like a spotless Lamb will be.

His blood was what needed to be taken into the Holy of Holies like high priests in the OT did when they went ro make atonement for the sin of the nation within a year.

Jesus had a flesh subject to sin Romans 8:3 but Jesus didn't sin unlike Adam who sinned. When Adam sinned his Spirit was tainted and the same would have happened to Jesus if he too did but he didn't.

When scripture says we sinned in Adam it is referring to our Spirits for we were born with a sinful nature (sinful spirit). The flesh is always corrupt and will always be till the final redemption of the body where we will put on incorruption. Jesus had a corruptible flesh which enabled him to die and then he resurrected to an incorruptible one.

See how simple I have made it. Now let me see you do so too. Who is a christian?

mbaemeka: That exchange was not in heaven. Please study well. Secondly, who is a christian and who is a sinner?. Can you show me where Jesus said those who told him they did miracles IN HIS NAME actually did it?

Let me see you answer this from scripture then if God wills it I would teach you who a christian is.

mbaemeka: ha ha ha ha. Go and ask a medical doctor: a baby receives his body (flesh) from his mother but receives his blood from his father. That was why Jesus got conceived by his father- God. He had the sinful flesh but he had sinless blood. The phrase "lamb without blemish" refers to the BLOOD of the lamb and not the flesh for if it were about the flesh then Jesus' badly blemished flesh wouldn't have been good enough.

mbaemeka: Vooks,




John 6:40New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
40 This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day.”

Do you understand Jesus now? Anyone saying Lord Lord doesn't matter to him except they are Christians. That's what he was saying. Also anyone merely "SAYING" "I did this in your name and I did that in your name" is only just saying it. They are not Christians- they are sinners (those who work iniquity by nature)

Judas was a sinner like every other man that pre-existed Jesus' death was. Even those who don't believe in Jesus regardless of how well behaved they are- they are ALL sinners. But before Jesus died his name was not yet salvific coupled with the fact that it had limitations in its use- it was restricted to Israel. So Judas and co worked miracles in the name (in the stead of the owner and with the authority he possessed) even though they were still sinners then. When Jesus died and resurrected the name had all the authority in heaven and in earth and became the name that saves people. The name belongs now to Christians.

So again like I said in the previous post- Judas was not unknown by Jesus, Judas was known but he died without receiving Christ's salvation that's why he went to hell and nothing more.

mbaemeka: Like said earlier- I don't reason out the word of God. I let the Holy Spirit teach me through the word and I take him for exactly what he is and not a watered-down version.



Simple comprehension should be applied here.



I don't know what Christianity has to do with the discourse. Anybody can say Lord Lord doesn't mean they are saved. The will of the father is that men should believe the one he sent- Jesus. That's what Jesus meant.



The man perished as an apostate and Jesus would not say to Judas "I never knew you". That's simple enough. Judas couldn't repent because he tasted of that power from on high and later dis-reputed it.



No Christian will perish. Let alone a miracle-performing one.



You don't know who a christian is. A christian is the opposite of a sinner so let that marinate first. You have totally missed the mark with your Ezekiel reference and now is not the time or the thread to school you on that. The thief on the cross got the same promissory note that other disciples had before Jesus death and resurrection. Jesus would know him in Heaven even if he had worked iniquity all through his life because Jesus knew him when it mattered to the thief.

mbaemeka: 1. I DO
2. I DO

mbaemeka: I also told you repeatedly that the miracles he wrought were not as a result of his blood or spirit but they were as a result of the HOLY SPIRIT that was within him (his sinful/ mortal flesh). For this very fact any man that is born into this world with a mortal flesh like Jesus will be able to do the same miracles he did if he has the HOLY SPIRIT within like Jesus did.

mbaemeka: I don't think about the word of God. The spirit of God teaches me. Maybe you should stop reasoning the word and just take him for who he is.

1. Did Judas cast out demons etc? Yes he did under the delegated authority that Jesus gave his disciples while he was alive (before his death). Judas was not a christian for Jesus had not died.

Jesus never said many Christians (by your definition, post resurrection believers)would say Lord Lord...He said many so we can't preclude pre-resurrection believers. Judas is well included here. Try another escape route

2. Judas perished in sin because he was never saved to begin with and he killed himself before he could be. Thereby fulfilling scriptures.

The FACT is a man who did miracles in Jesus name perished.

3. If a christian that performed miracles in Jesus name apostasizes and walks away from the faith he/she would perish. But it would be almost impossible for any christian who has tasted of this power in Jesus name to apostasize and deny the faith. Paul said if they ever did so they would never be able to repent again (and not that God would not forgive them). Even at that Jesus would not say to the person "I never knew you" for that would be a lie. Jesus knew the person as a christian while he worked miracles in his name. The person only lost his way and denied Jesus by saying he doesn't want to be christian again. That's apostasy and it is the only way salvation can be lost.

ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE is your thinking. You might as well quantify that. What percentage of miracle performing Christians perish? It does not matter. Some will

Can you see why it is impossible for a sinner to use the name of Jesus to achieve a miracle? Besides, Jesus said to them "I NEVER knew you" proving without a doubt that they didn't do what they claimed.

Ezekiel is very clear. Your state at death determines your eternity. Ditto the thief on the cross. Did Jesus know him seeing they met a few hours before their death? NEVER knowing means they perished in their sins. Whether they sinned all their lives or at death is irrelevant. Read Ezekiel 18 again

This means it is perfectly possible for a Christian miracle worker to perish, especially habitual sinners

mbaemeka: Vooks,

You are saying many words and yet passing no message. Let me ask again.

1. Not everyone who says "lord, lord" will enter the kingdom of Heaven. This means some that say "lord, lord" will enter the kingdom. Who are those?
Those who do the will of the Father

2. Jesus didn't say "those who prophesied in my name, cast out demons in my name etc." I never you. He said they will SAY to him "lord we cast out demons in your name. . .etc" and he would respond that he NEVER knew them.

Read Ezekiel 18 especially 26-27

Ezekiel 18:26-27 King James Version (KJV)
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.


Who can be regarded by Christ as "I NEVER KNEW YOU?" If someone was born again and worked miracles in Jesus name and later apostasized will Jesus say "I never knew you"? Or will he say "You were once in my fold but you left"?

3. Do you know what it means to act or do something in Jesus name? What does working iniquity mean?

Regardless of what it means, there are some who acted and did something in Jesus name and were dismissed as workers of iniquity

4. Do you think that name can be used by sinners to achieve anything (save obtain salvation) ?

Was Judas a sinner? Did he use that name?

John 12:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.


5. Then for your references to the disciples account, you have spoken like a true nepios (one not accustomed to walking in the knowledge or power of God). How could his disciples who thought the preserve of working miracles in Jesus' name accept that someone somewhere could do that without following Jesus? What was Jesus' response? Why did he not talk about sinners using his name but on the last day I would decide who is who? Why did he say "don't forbid them"?

Irrelevant questions drawn from an irrelevant example. Was Judas a sinner?

You need not respond as Jesus already did. He said NO ONE who works a miracle in my name will afterwards speak evil of me. So stop bending Jesus' words to suit your unbelief. The name of Jesus can never be used to work miracles by sinners. In fact, it is an insult to Jesus for anyone to suggest so let alone a hypocrite arrogating the right to call one righteous or unrighteous.

sonOfLucifer: Who breeds these fools?

mbaemeka: Don't quote me if you have nothing meaningful to say. You didn't need to create a new handle to engage me. I quoted the scriptures and showed you exactly what Jesus said and I interpreted it for all to see because I know what it is to act in the name of Jesus. The name belongs to ONLY christians. Let me quote Jesus again this time maybe you would be kind enough to read it a little slower while meditating on it.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

From the verses above we can infer 2 things:

1. There are some that say "lord,lord" that will enter the kingdom of heaven.
2. There are some that will say that they prophesied, cast out demons, did many wonders and he will say to them "thou good and faithful servant, welcome"

Agree? Good. So who are those ones? Let us start from there and we would watch your interpretation crumble like biscuits. BTW, he said "I never knew you" not that "I knew you but you backslid" or "I knew you but you worked iniquity". He said "I never knew you" meaning you were never a christian, period.



You spoke about warped logic earlier on right? The emboldened is a perfect example of such. Jesus said NO ONE meaning not a single soul who works a miracle IN MY NAME can soon after speak evil of me. For if you taste of that power, you would know there is nothing or no one greater than the one vested in Jesus' name.

But like I have been saying: anyone can quote scriptures in any format and use it to make a case (even atheists) because there is no experience to back the interpretation given. That all changes when you are boxed to prove that what you believe works and then we start hearing all sorts of dumb excuses.

mbaemeka: So my dear, the people in Matthew 7 that you made references to never did any of those things that they SAID they did. They will only SAY so to escape the lake of fire and of course they will fail because they never knew Christ and as such never did what they claimed. Jesus said anyone who tastes of that power from on high can't in return speak evil of him. It is virtually impossible to do so. I don't know how to argue my relationship with God with an atheist for example, How do I tell someone else that I hear God speak to me by the Holy Spirit? They will call me deluded or a liar.

So whenever you listen to debates about the name of Jesus and people are raising suspicions and doubts for whatever situation like "alluding to the fact that anyone who uses the name of Jesus to wrought miracles could be occultic or fake", just know that they don't walk in that power.