₦airaland Forum

Joagbaje:
Why the emphasis in Revelation

Because Revelation captures FUTURE events, would it miss such an important event that captivated the apostles and which Jesus spent a better part of his public and private ministry teaching?

Besides, how else would one know the number of saints resurrections other than from scriptures of which Revelation I one of them?

Resurrection is mentioned in the gospels,Acts,Pauline epistles and Revelation. All I need is some strong BIBLICAL sense in distinguishing instances of resurrection into two or more events and not one.

Scholar8200 and Image123 would have a fighting chance if they equally believed in multiple comings of Jesus Christ because ALL the resurrection accounts place the event at Jesus' coming.

Behold the inconsistency in their beliefs! They hold onto a singular return/coming but multiple resurrections. To do this, they must needs deny a simple scriptural truth; resurrection of the saints is at the Coming o Jesus Christ

Scholar8200:
Here, once again, you contradict whole portions of Scripture! What? Pls read up Paul's inspired expose in Romans 11 and dont mix up Israel and the church in that passage.
Besides, what purpose serves Daniel 9 with respect to Israel?

There is neither Jew nor Gentile my friend, Christ is the ONLY way to the Father.
1.If a Gentile turned to Judaism, would they get eternal life?
2. Do Jews now have eternal life?

Joagbaje:
1Th 4:15 — 1Th 4:17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Rapture is the catching up alive of living saints ,not dead saints. Resurrection is the taking up of dead saints and others .

These events happen right next to each other.
The dead in Christ resurrect and are clothed with immortality, the living saints are also clothed in immortality and they meet Christ in the air with the dead in Christ.

While rapture properly describes meeting Christ in the air, it is naturally understood to be the ENTIRE series of events of this day namely;
1. resurrection of the dead unto immortality,
2. the now immortal formerly dead saints meeting Christ in the air,
3. transformation of the living saints to immortality,
4. and their meeting of Christ and the resurrected saints in the air.

Scholar8200,Image123,Gombs,Joagbaje,
Could you please show me the TWO distinct resurrection of the saints in Revelation?

Scholar8200:
The perspective and purpose of the Great tribulation and other eschatological events and the related OT prophecies about them would be clearly understood if you consider the role of Israel therein-they rejected the Messiah(Christ) and will only be ready to receive Him, their eyes being opened, after the 'exploits' of the Antichrist else what exactly would be the purpose of the Great tribulation? Why not execute judgement immediately?:

Romans 11:1,2b,11,12,15,25
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew
[/b]11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12[b] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[/b]25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; [b]that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

As regards the bolded,
When will the time of the Gentiles come to an end (the commencement of the 70th week in Daniel's prophecy)
When will the Deliverer come to Zion to turn away ungodliness from Jacob? (after the time of Jacob's trouble{great tribulation} at the end of the 70th week)
Where will the Deliverer deliver Jacob, in the air? ( NO, on Earth).
After Delivering Jacob, what next? (He shall rule over all the Earth having descended with His armies, the saints Zechariah 14:5b,9)
Where would those armies of saints be coming from? (Heaven!)

Assignment
Suppose the church would be on Earth when the Deliverer comes to turn ungodliness from Jacob (Israel), what will be the purpose of transforming them (the Church), taking them to the air, and immediately descending to Earth with them?

You have your eschatology in reverse my brother.
You imagine a special role of Israel post Calvary, you invent its aspects, and then you use your invention to trash scriptures BIG. You demand subscription to your theories in order to disagree with scriptures. All this is a not so clever digression from the subject at hand.


A simpler assignment
If a heathen turned to Judaism now, would they earn eternal life?

Just to help some here,
There are TWO RESURRECTION in Revelation 20;
1. Of the saints in v4
2. Of 'the rest' mentioned in v5 and which occurs in v12-13

Some theorists like Scholar8200,Image123 and Gombs would have you believe that before the FIRST RESURRECTION here there was another global resurrection of the saints a rapture of the living.

The burden of proof is on them to prove it from scriptures, especially from Revelation. Where is IT?

Meanwhile, let's learn about the resurrection at the LAST DAY


John 6:40 King James Version (KJV)
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 King James Version (KJV)
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 King James Version (KJV)
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

This is exactly what Paul records in

1 Corinthians 15:52 King James V ersion (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The event is certainly instantaneous

It is important to listen to the words of Christ on this matter
Matthew 24:29-30 King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Jesus tells us;
1. The gathering is at His coming just as Paul reiterated
2. The gathering is AFTER tribulation

Scholar8200:
1 Thess 4 does not describe the rapture as the Day of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

I asked WHAT day of the Lord is in this verse verse what you think it is not sir

Paul in chapter 4 speaks of rapture and the DESCENDING of the Lord. He then quickly reminds them NOBODY knows of the time.

Think through this; is it the time Nigeria attained Independence or the events he just described?

And it specifies those involved in verse 4, as those martyred in the Tribulation for Christ distinct from the dead in Christ that arose at Rapture and were called the Bride.

Question is,
Was there a global church resurrection an rapture before it?

If you for a second entertain multiple resurrection, you dig yourself into the theological absurdity. For instance;

Resurrection of the dead happens AT Christ coming yet you place resurrection 1000 years before His COMING

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 King James Version (KJV)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming

Paul is VERY CLEAR on resurrection happening at the coming of Jesus AGAIN!

1 Thessalonians 4:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The ordination oof first and second here is limited to that advent, else what do we say to the resurrection of OT saints after Christ's resurrection in Matthew 27:52,53?[/b]

The reason is simple; ALL recorded resurrections were unto death and they all died again. Jesus is the firstborn from among the dead because his mortality was clothed in immortality. He underwent the transformation we look forward to at His coming

those were Tribulation saints, distinct from the Bride mentioned in Revelations 19:7-9

Again, verse 4 tells us those that lived after that resurrection.

Yes! After the Tribulation, two resurrections will take place: first is for the saints who did not take the mark and were washed in the blood; the second is for the dead.

As explained before,two resurrections are a figment of your imagination because resurrection happens AT the coming of Christ and n before

Could you please POINT out the rapture of the saints in Revelation if this is not it?
Would John omit capturing such a glorious event?

Image123:
For one, the phrase "day of the Lord" appears just once in the epistles to the Thessalonians i think.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Here, he is likely referring to the rapture as that makes perfect sense the surprise. There is no surprise in the literal second coming as everyone sane then will be expecting Him and every eye will see Him. It is no thief in the night venture. He will come and stay for many years. In 2Peter for instance, the day of the Lord is referring to the very end of the world when the elements will be burnt up. i'll likely come back to Thessalonians, but like you adviced someone, let's finish with Revelations. Of course, the sense is there in what that person told you about not building to much on just one part but taking every thing completely and holistically.



The term "first resurrection" is simply a phrase used in comparison to the "second death". There is no second resurrection in the sense. It's just like "first Adam"and "last Adam". The emphasis is more of contextual than numeric. In the literal sense, the sinner is dead while alive on earth, then he dies a second time when he dies physically, but there is a second death afterwards. The first resurrection phrase is only found in that passage in all of scriptures BTW. Someone like Lazarus and Tabitha will have issues with a numeric first resurrection as they resurrected when they became believers, then they resurrected when they dies physically, then this first resurrection thing again. All saints are partake in the reigning with Christ and indeed, on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Whether Old Testament or New testament saints, even though the passage is specific on souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, who did not worship the beast. So if you are not beheaded, sorry for you oh my brother, no first resurrection be that, just kidding.




This is common Bible knowledge. there are some direct messages in Bible epistles to the direct hearers/recipients, and there are general messages. For instance in Paul's epistles, there are some direct instructions to Timothy or to Alexander the coppersmith etc. In Revelations 2 and 3, there is a particular Jezebel woman, there are some people saying that they are Jews, and are not, there is an Antipas, there are some holding a particular doctrine of Nicolaitanes. The point made though is still that Chapters2 and 3 are letters to the church, things present.




It's inherent. However, that something may be extrabiblical doesn't necessarily mean that it is wrong. Many health truths, physics truths etc are not in the Bible for instance. In Acts1, it talks of a certain sabbath day's journey. This simply is distance lawfully traveled by a Jew on the Sabbath. This was 2,000 paces or cubits, or seven furlongs and a half - not quite one mile. This is something not in the Bible but is what a sabbath day's journey means. When one says church age, that you don't see it in the Bible doesn't mean there is nothing like that. All you need to find out is the meaning. There is the period referred to as the time of the gentiles. These are simple illustrations, not guesswork. The church age is simply the period from when the church was formed by Christ till the time of the Rapture, when the living church will meet the Lord in the air. We are in that period/age as the church is still here on earth waiting for the Lord.

It us quite unfortunate you IGNORED all the question I asked.

Jesus is called the first begotten from among the dead yet the dead were rising long before He came on earth. Why is this? His resurrection entailed transformation from physical to spiritual; H rose again to Never die again, His mortality was clothed with immortality while Lazarus died again.

This mean Jesus was th first to be clothed with immortality.

FIRST RESURRECTION means exactly that global/church resurrection you read of in 1 Corinthians 15, and in 1 Thessalonians.

Church age is a theory of men that is 101% unfounded. It is conjecture.

Here are the questions Image123 just for you
Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

1. There is a resurrection in these verses called FIRST RESURRECTION. Is it your 4:1 resurrection or something different?

2. The resurrection of chapter 20 is of or at least includes those who never received the mark which means they must have been exposed to but resisted the mark. Does your 4:1 rapture/resurrection happen before/after the mark/beast?

3. The chapter 20 resurrection happens AFTER the beast has been destroyed and cast into the lake of fire towards the end of chapter 19. 2 Thessalonians tells us of a man of sin who will be destroyed at the coming of Jesus. Is it safe to conclude that resurrection happens AFTER the destruction of the beast which happens at the COMING of Jesus?

4. Chapter 20 resurrection is called FIRST RESURRECTION. Is it remotely possible that there was a global resurrection before it, that is supposing for some reason this is not the rapture?

Image123:
i skimmed through your ongoing discussion with Scholar8200. One thing to note is that the "coming of the Lord" is a phase, very similar to the "day of the Lord". Depending on context, the day or coming of the Lord may be referring to many things, from Judgement to Reward to what we call millenial reign to rapture etc. All these are different events that happen at different times and not concurrently or simulteneously. Like his first coming has His Birth, His Life, His Death, His Resurrection and His Ascension. His Second coming will be 'kicked off' with the rapture(my opinion from study etc of course).

In 1Thes and 2Thes context, what is the day of the Lord?

So, to Revelations. At what point do we have Rapture, that's chapter4v1.

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
1. There is a resurrection in these verses called FIRST RESURRECTION. Is it your 4:1 resurrection or something different?

2. The resurrection of chapter 20 is of or at least includes those who never received the mark which means they must have been exposed to but resisted the mark. Does your 4:1 rapture/resurrection happen before/after the mark/beast?

3. The chapter 20 resurrection happens AFTER the beast has been destroyed and cast into the lake of fire towards the end of chapter 19. 2 Thessalonians tells us of a man of sin who will be destroyed at the coming of Jesus. Is it safe to conclude that resurrection happens AFTER the destruction of the beast which happens at the COMING of Jesus?

4. Chapter 20 resurrection is called FIRST RESURRECTION. Is it remotely possible that there was a global resurrection before it, that is supposing for some reason this is not the rapture?

Chapters2 and 3 are letters to the church, and just like other epitles in the Bible, these letters are for both the direct/immediate recipients and for we believers. There is some message there for us. Jesus is still who He is in the letters; holding the stars, the keys, walking in the midst, knowing our works etc. The church and all believers are still called to overcome etc.

Chapter one of Revelation makes no such distinction between parts for some and not others

After the church age, there is a COME UP HITHER, to see things which must be hereafter.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

Guesswork. Who made you see ages? Theories of men

Up there, Heaven is seen, saints/elders are also seen, then of course the Lamb and the worship etc in chapters 4 and 5. Chapters 6 to somewhere in 19 talk mainly about the tribulation events on earth. Mainly not Only. Revelation 19v11 shows the literal second coming to earth WITH the saints.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

You know the rest i guess. the beast is taken, Jesus and His army reign on earth, satan is bound etc.

Answer the questions above

Thanks

Cc Gombs,Goshen360,Joagbaje,Scholar8200

Scholar8200:
Based on your conclusion would you, of thy clemency, answer these:
1. What would be the condition of Israel at this time? Since they did not accept the Messiah, will they go with the rapture? If no, what will happen to them?


Let's start with this, others will come after we are done with this. This is not a digression, we cant talk of the Rapture and Christ's coming without referring to surrounding events.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile sir in Christ. They will perish in their sin

Scholar8200:
Interestingly, 2 Thessalonians says nothing about resurrection, only 1Thessalonians says the dead in Christ shall rise. The latter speaks of meeting the Lord in the air while the former speaks of an event that will happen on the Earth.

Paul does not waste ink and paper.
In 1 Thes, he is addressing mourning Thessalonians. The best you can comfort a mourning believer with is RESURRECTION. In 2 Thes, he is correcting an erroneous idea that Jesus had already returned! And he powerfully does that by telling them of specific events that MUST precede the Coming namely man of sin

Now if there be no Millenial reign (but there is) would you say:
That Battle of Armageddon=Battle of Gog and Magog?

This is digression

Scholar8200:
It's okay.

Rather than go into Greek, why not consider what other passages teach on the events being considered?

Now if we were to stick to Thessalonians alone, this is what you get:
1. Jesus DESCENDS from Heaven and the saints, dead or alive, meet Him in the air;
2. After they meet Him in the air, they all descend immediately down to the Earth to destroy the man of sin;
3. Afterwards, Jesus establishes His Earthly kingdom and that will be all.

You know this is not all.(Except we will edit and/or dispense with whole portions in the OT and NT!)

Let us FIRST understand Paul in 1 Thessalonians

1. The dead precede the living in resurrection and they shall meet him in the air
2. Christ shall DESCEND. When he ascended, he left the earth, when he descended, he came to earth. Isn't it obvious? Please do a word study on DESCEND
3. In chapter 5, the event just described is called the DAY OF THE LORD

moving on to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
1. The COMING of the Lord is clearly called the DAY OF THE LORD
2. Before the DAY OF THE LORD/COMING, some things/events must take place; unveiling of man of sin
3. Man of sin is destroyed at Jesus' COMING


Conclusion
The DAY OF THE LORD is the COMING of Jesus at which the rapture/resurrection happens and it happens AFTER the man of sin is revealed


PS
In 1 Thes, Paul focuses on resurrection of the saints so as to comfort the mourning Thessalonians while in 2 Thessalonians he focuses on the timing of Christ COMING to correct to erroneous notion that it is past

Scholar8200:
Bro, permit me to refer you to my initial answer to this. Pauline eschatology (1 Thessalonians 4) was that we will be changed, the believers that were dead will be raised incorruptible and we all will meet the Lord in the air.

Meet Christ in the air, and then what?

The verse is CLEAR, Christ shall DESCEND. Is this descent coming or not?

Does this contradict what he wrote in 2 Thessalonians? No. It will only seem so if we ignore other parallel passages like you want us to do. Like I said, the Spirit's Inspiration of scripture has always been such that all believers of all ages and epoch will find it applicable to them(whether they be the Bride or the Tribulation Saints).

In 1 Thes 4 Paul uses the word DESCEND. In 2 Thes he uses the word COMING.

Besides, if the Rapture+Armageddon was what Paul was referring to in 2 Thessalonians, then what will be the use of the Battle of Gog and Magog where fire falls from Heaven to destroy the enemies? Which enemies will that be?

We need METHOD and tact sir. We are on COMING of Jesus Christ. Paul RELATED the coming to resurrection. Why would two events supposedly by your theories 1000 years apart be related to each other?

Afterall the battle alluded to in 2Thessalonians 1 should have destroyed them all.

This hopping and inability to LISTEN to Paul is your bane


Let's go through the questions again.
Jesus you agree returns and destroys man of sin.
Why is this event 1000 years after resurrection relevant to Thessalonian resurrection?

Scholar8200:
Rather what I did was to analyse it in the light of other parallel references in the Bible.

No sir, what you did is pretend it doesn't exist or say anything because of others.

But we have to in establishing Truth just like you said!

Your first point would have been to interrogate WHAT it APPEARS to say. On the surface. Then get deeper, verbs,tenses, Greek and all. One can't attempt to arrive at a truth when they have set minds and theories. Lay aside biases and opinion and suffer scriptures to minister to you. Don't compete with Holy Spirit at Inspiration

Scholar8200:
Since you know the highlighted, do it with respect to contexts and reference.

I wonder how you arrived at that accusation though. Perhaps you can help draw my attention to it.

You have trashed Pauline eschatology

What is Paul telling you regarding the COMING of Jesus?

Scholar8200:
But why do you say they are unrelated? The prophecies concerning Christ first and second advent are found in the Law, the Psalms and the Prophets!
Daniel 9:27 speaks of what the prince (Daniel 9:26 speaks of a prince that shall come after the Messiah) would do for 7 years and that in the midst of the period (after 3.5 years) he will commence his abominations.

Paul? But did I not mention 1 Thessalonians 4:17? and was he not the Inspired writer of 1 Corinthians 15? Did Paul not write of the Judgement seat of Christ as a place where all believers (not the dead in Revelations 20) will appear before the Lord to receive a reward for their works?
Should I also opine that you appear to avoid the other places quoted because they contradict what you hold?

That is why there is the need to consider all that the Bible says about a particular subject before forming an opinion; Jesus did the same thing after He arose Luke 24:27,44

We are discussing Thessalonians and you dismiss it without a single look and then take me in circles.

We can't consider ALL the Bible says when we are busy trashing what it says at a particular point!

What is Paul saying in Thessalonians?

[b] 1Thessalonians 2:1-8 King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming[/b]

Brethren,
Let's go back to first century and ask ourselves.
Why were the Thessalonians so rattled by the erroneous notion that Christ had returned,that it took Paul to an entire chapter of explaining the events which would occur before Christ returned?

Scholar8200:
Rather, it ensures that we consider all that the Bible says about a subject and not just a passage that suits us! That is real objectivity!!!
I wonder how the highlighted applies to the matter at hand?

We will move to Genesis, and even apocrypha.
How one arrives at truth is to determine what EACH and EVERY scripture means. We can then pick identical subjects and develop a doctrine from ALL these. But if we steadfastly resist a single scripture because it collapses our house of cards, we are blatantly dishonest.

Scholar8200:
Kindly specify examples of the highlighted and the extra-scriptural sources (elsewhere) I have quoted from

You are throwing UNRELATED portions of scriptures for once. You are also assuming the nature and extent of tribulation such as it lasts 3.5 years and so forth

Sticking to only one portion is the reason why we have some damnable heresies today and unfortunately the proteges of such teachings deliberately close their eyes to other passages that contradict the erroneous conclusions drawn from a single passage divorced from the Big Picture!

The ONLY reason you won't suffer Paul to speak to you is because he smashes your theories to smithereens. Peter speak of some who twist Paul to their own damnation.

When studying scriptures the FIRST question one asks is what the scripture is saying. You can't do this because you have determined it beforehand to be saying something else than it is saying

Scholar8200:
The danger inherent in this approach is that we may arrive at conclusions that contradict the other passages.

We will dwell on as many scriptures as you want sir. The danger of hopping all over without determining what any scripture means ministers Christianity that is miles wide and only milimeters deep. Such shallow faith is so malleable, it can fit ANYTHING you want it and is the furthest thing from objectivity.

No.

Is Paul talking about the COMING of Jesus Christ here?

Scholar8200:
I perceive that there are things Inspired in the NT that are so such that it will comfort those described in Revelations as Tribulation saints just as there are such in the OT.

(Vs 4 talks of the antichrist sitting in the Temple- this indicates a reference to the occurrence after the rapture and the commencement of the 70th week programme of God with Israel. You will agree with me that for the Gentile believers, we dont have Temples but houses/buildings where the church meets and that could be anywhere.

The 3.5 years of peace will be achieved by a treaty with Israel meaning at that time, there would be much focus on Israel and her peculiarities.
Compare the passage you quoted especially 2 Thess 1:6,7 with Revelations 13:10 and see the similarities.

Moreover 1 Thess 4:17 speaks of meeting the Lord in the AIR, while 2 Thess describes an event that will take place on Earth.

2 Thessalonians describes the setting of the Battle of Armagedon where Christ descends with the saints and the Antichrist is destroyed. The battle of Gog and Magog would see fire fallen from Heaven and destroying the armies of the dragon and the final judgement of the dragon.
Besides, we should be curious that Revelations specifies / distinguishes TRIBULATION saints from the Bride of Christ!
The latter would be in Heaven while the tribulation lasts while some of the former would arrive Heaven as a result of being killed during the Tribulation.
Besides in his prophecy of the coming of Christ to establish His Millenial reign, Zechariah shows clearly that He will descend WITH His saints (the earlier raptured Bride affirmed in Revelations 19:7,8,14)
''...and the LORD my God shall come, and ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE...'' Zechariah 14:5b
Moreover, Isaiah proves that during the millenial reign, the Elect (Israel) will still experience death which wont happen to the Raptured saints because already they have been changed!
''... For the CHILD SHALL DIE an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed..'' Isaiah 65:20 this is in perfect keeping with the Truth in Revelations 20:14 and 1 Corinth 15:26 that the last enemy that will be destroyed is Death and that will happen after the Millenial reign.

If we go by your position, we will be contradicting 1 Corinth 15:52-56 and Isaiah 65:20.

The problem with your approach is you can't stick to a single scripture long enough without throwing in biases and assumptions from elsewhere.

Let's stick to Thessalonians.

Try this once AGAIN

Please note the following;

1. Verse 1. THE COMING OF OUR LORD, AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM.
it is clear ONE event is described

2. Verse 3 It comes AFTER the man of sin has been revealed ( forget whatever that means for now)

3. Verse 8 Man of sin is destroyed at the coming of Jesus.

Questions for you
1. Is the coming of verse 1 and 8 the same?
2. Is this coming associated with rapture?
3. Why would the coming and rapture/gathering be related with each other by Paul?

Scholar8200:
I am eager to learn too but most importantly may God grant us grace to see Him at the end.

That passage you quoted is talking about the rapture and the resurrection of the dead saints and transformation of the living ones and both meet the Lord in the air.
This Raptured Bride of the Lamb will descend with Him at His Coming to establish the Millenial reign.

At that time, those Tribulation saints that were martyred by the antichrist will be resurrected see Revelations 20:4

After the battle of Gog and Magog at the end of the Millenial reign, then the resurrection of the damned see Revelations 20: 13,12

Let's try some method. Stick to one verse till we have exhausted it.

The verse clearly talks of COMING. Are you correcting Paul?

[b]2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:[/b]

Scholar8200,Gombs,Joagbaje

Please note the following;

1. Verse 1. THE COMING OF OUR LORD, AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM.
it is clear ONE event is described

2. Verse 3 It comes AFTER the man of sin has been revealed ( forget whatever that means for now)

3. Verse 8 Man of sin is destroyed at the coming of Jesus.

Questions for you
1. Is the coming of verse 1 and 8 the same?
2. Is this coming associated with rapture?
3. Why would the coming and rapture/gathering be related with each other by Paul?

Scholar8200:
Revelations 19:8,14 shows His coming to fight the battle of Armagedon and the establishment of His Millenial reign.

Notice that in that verse the saints do not go to meet Him in the air (as 1 Thessalonians 4 describes) rather they come with Him. (the armies of Heaven used in Rev. 19 vs 14 were the saints because Rev 19 vs 8 already told us that the white linen is the righteousness of the saints, not Angels).
Nothing is said here of the dead in Christ rising and those alive being changed rather Zechariah 12:10,11 shows the mourning by those who once ''received Him not'' and they will be on Earth.

In Thessalonians God brings with Jesus the dead
1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV)
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


How many resurrections do we have?
Indicate them from Revelation

Thanks.
Am driving my point

Gombs:
Yeah.. I'm cultist huh... WoF.

Cooooool

Gather the lads, the WoF theorists...y'all give me some cosmic comedy!

This is the point where obfuscation with silly gifs is necessary to cover up your ignorance

Image123:
Hmmmmm, good evening. i've been trying as much as lies in me to avoid doctrinal threads recently. Knowledge is good and knowledge of the Truth makes one free. Also though, knowledge puffs off and i find this latter the case oftentimes outside of fellowship. Nonetheless, i'm one for the privilege to share, and i thank my 'inviter' Knowing that maybe one soul somewhere sometime may perhaps be blessed, taught, or instructed, and also in cognizance of the fact that knowledge of correct doctrine doesn't take anyone to Heaven or eternal life. i'd rather be the repented thief on the cross with no braggadocio about the correct views on trinity or tithe or rapture, than have all knowledge and not be prepared to meet the Lord.
That been stated clearly, i am of the leaning that the rapture precedes the Great Tribulation, then the Second Coming. The order of events awaited are Rapture, Great Tribulation, and Second Coming. In summary;
-The rapture is the catching AWAY of believers to meet the Lord IN THE AIR.
-The Great Tribulation is a period of wrath and judgement ON THE EARTH.
-The Second Coming is Jesus the Christ's second COMING to THIS EARTH.
Note that the rapture(or it's idea and teaching if you like) is not a COMING in the sense but an appearance, in a short moment. "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

The Great Tribulation is not eternal judgement, it is not hell fire, it is not annihilation or destruction. The Tribulation is a period ON EARTH, not in hell or gehenna or some place else. Bible students know and believe this. Also, the Israelites seemed to be aware and expectant of some sort of tribulation, haven been several times warned so by the Old Testament prophets. This is evident in John Baptist's assuming preaching.
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? There was a wrath to come, a tribulation been expected. It was referred to in many OT scriptures and it is on earth, a period of suffering and troubles. Yes, man's days are full of trouble but this one is different, intense and specific.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

The last passage there refers to the period as a time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. Jacob/Israel will be saved, and so also will the saints of God.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

If the words and promises of Jesus are true and if He is the same yesterday, today and forever, we can be sure that the believers will not pass through the Great tribulation.
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

The book of Revelations is clear and to a major extent chronological. It depicts the saints and elders in heaven before God and His throne and His angels while the tribulations and woes and trumpets and vails are going on.
Chapters 1-3 are pre-rapture. Chapter4v1 is highly symbolic of the rapture.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

AFTER THIS, after earth and the overcomings etc, a door is opened in heaven. Saints are there etc. Tribulation begins on earth around chapters 6 to 19. In chapter 19, we see the Second Coming to earth, where the King of kings and Prince of Life comes to earth, defeats the beast and reigns etc till the end of course. i've talked much already. Thanks again.

At what point in Revelation does Jesus return?

And at what point do we have Rapture?

Scholar8200:
Do you mean the coming of Jesus and the ensuing battle of Armageddon will be the rapture?

1.How then do you explain the fact that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 speaks of meeting the Lord in the air while Revelations 20 speaks of an Earthly reign, seconded by Isaiah 63:2,3, Zechariah 12:9-10 (cf Revelations 1:7) and Zechariah 14:2,3,4,9 etc

2. And what will be the import of Isaiah 60 that describes the condition Jerusalem will be during the Milenial reign when Christ reigns in Jerusalem?


3. and when will this be fulfilledNot the same as battle of Armageddon) Revelations 20:7-10?

4. 1 Thessalonians 4 talks of meeting the Lord in the air(Rapture), Revelations 20 etc talks of The Lord descending to earth and reigning after the Battle of Armagedon; the millenial reign ends with the battle of Gog and Magog this time fire falls from Heaven and destroys the attackers.

5.Armagedon ends with the final judgement of the antichrist; Gog and Magog ends with the final Judgement of satan (find these in Revelations 19 & 20) Armagedon is succeeded by the Millenial reign; Gog and Magog is succeeded by the Great White Throne Judgement hence these events are different just like Rapture precedes Great Tribulation and Millenial reign precedes Great White Throne Judgement! The Millenial reign, unlike the Rapture, begins with a battle and ends with a battle-Armagedon and Gog&Magog respectively!
6. And if Armagedon will take place at the rapture what purpose will another battle - Gog and Magog Revelations 20:8-10- serve?
We are here to learn (not to win an argument)hence my quoting of these references. If I am wrong please indicate and explain those references vis a vis other parallel passages.

cc
EMILO2STAY
Mr President1

Show me at what point Jesus returns in Revelation. Thank you

Scholar8200:
There is need to differentiate between the Rapture (1 Thess 4:17) and the Coming of Christ to establish the Millenial Reign (Revelations 19:11-13, 20:4-6). Rapture would be pre-tribulation (see Revelations 19:7-10 a description of what the Bride: Raptured church would be doing in Heaven while the Tribulation lasts) while the Coming of Christ to establish the Millenial Reign would be after the Tribulation (Revelations 20 :4-7).
Rapture takes place without a battle, the Coming takes place with a Battle!
Rapture signals the end of the Church age and the commencement of the 70th Week. And we are told in 2 Thessalonians 2 that He Who hinders the antichrist from manifesting would be taken out of the way. Now what will be the essence of leaving the Church on the Earth?

Inability to differentiate Bible references that relate to both events has been a source of confusion and makes many to affirm what may contradict other portions!

Coming of Jesus is....coming of Jesus and rapture is rapture. These are different events happening at the exact same moment not thousands years apart.

Inability to comprehend Revelation symbols has birthed endless confusion and the most absurd theories

Gombs:
I concur with you brother...

Vooks, come and take notes, I kinda don't have energy writing you, especially because of your grammar and semantics.

That is how cultist all tell me

sonOfLucifer:
Is he the Messiah?

He is the Messiah

sonOfLucifer:
Vooks sukkot whaddyathink?

Jesus is the Son of the Living God

Joagbaje:
For those who believe that rapture is last event can we give bible references on this.

You who believe it is not the last event should also give us bible references.

1. Rapture is the resurrection of the saints
2. Resurrection of the saints happens at the return of Jesus

Verses coming later