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Christianity Etc › Re: BIU To Award Honorary Doctorate Degree To Pastor Chris Oyakhilome by vooks: 3:43am On Oct 21, 2015
ril19:
I call it mundane.
What have you ever done in your life worth an honorary diploma?

Cc Gombs
Christianity Etc › Re: Churches That Abuse by vooks(op): 7:52pm On Oct 20, 2015
It goes without saying that the pastoral leaders we have examined here are power-seeking individuals. In their attempts to control and manipulate others, they reveal much about their own personality and identity. Behavioral scientists view the desire for power as the result of a deep- seated insecurity or need. It is my impression that abusive pastors often come from troubled backgrounds and are very insecure persons despite the "take charge" image they may project. They are power-hungry people who crave visibility. Leaders who inflict spiritual violence often hide behind the smoke screen of authority to gain power.
Christianity Etc › Re: Churches That Abuse by vooks(op):
A central theme of this book is that spiritual abuse can take place in the context of doctrinally sound, Bible preaching, fundamental, conservative Christianity. All that is needed for abuse is a pastor accountable to no one and therefore beyond confrontation.
Christianity Etc › Re: Churches That Abuse by vooks(op): 3:37pm On Oct 20, 2015
When authoritarian churches are subjected to what they perceive to be negative press, they invariably interpret the results as the "work of Satan." This is true even if the report appears in a Christian periodical, or when Christian observers are quoted.
Criticism, whether its source is Christian or secular, sincere or superficial, is always viewed by fringe churches as an "attack" — dismissed as more evidence of Satan trying to discredit "a good Christian work." In no way would I defend all that is passed off as investigative journalism aimed at Christian organizations. But I am aware of numerous instances where carefully researched, accurate reporting has been totally rejected by the evangelical Christian community without ever considering the possible merits of the reporting. It is almost automatically attributed to Satan. That is unconscionable.
Christianity Etc › Re: Churches That Abuse by vooks(op): 12:24pm On Oct 20, 2015
How does your church treat ex-members?
The ultimate form of discipline in authoritarian churches is excommunication or disfellowshipping, followed by strict avoidance procedures, or shunning. As MacDonald correctly notes, "Once the deviant is labeled as factious and is denounced, he is cast aside as thoroughly as one would throw out a dirty diaper . . . [the deviant] is no longer considered even to be an ex-member, but a wolf in sheep's clothing. He is referred to and looked to as how not to be."3 When a rebellious individual leaves an abusive group, he is labeled as a traitor, a reprobate, a sinner, a backslider, or, in the case of Set Free Christian Fellowship, an "outlaw." The congregation is told to disassociate from such persons. "Friends of long standing will ignore him. They will turn their faces away. They will go to great lengths to avoid him. They will walk on the other side of the street, hang up the phone, or not answer the door . . . "4
Christianity Etc › Re: Churches That Abuse by vooks(op): 12:20pm On Oct 20, 2015
Members of all abusive churches soon learn that the pastor or leader is beyond confrontation. As one former member of an abusive congregation put it, "Since no one in the church was allowed to murmur and complain, or to disagree with the pastor, there were many, like myself, who suffered in silence lest we incur God's anger." All problems that befall the group are the fault of members who violate the infallible rules. Accordingly, members experience increased self-doubt, helplessness, and insecurity.
Christianity Etc › Re: Churches That Abuse by vooks(op):
Preface
This has been a difficult book to write because it is a book that is critical of other Christians. One always runs the risk of being misunderstood and labeled "judgmental" or arrogant when you make evaluative statements regarding Christian believers and organizations outside your own immediate circle. The book is about churches and other Christian organizations that inflict psychological and spiritual abuse upon members through the use of fear, guilt, and intimidation.

However, when we refuse to pass judgment on any religious phenomenon for fear that such judgments might violate the norm of tolerance so prevalent in our culture, we abdicate our responsibility to the body of Christ to sound a warning where a warning is justified. Some boats need to be rocked, even Christian boats. The years of research that have gone into this book have validated for me the truth of a placard I display in my office: "Those who make it hardest to be a Christian in this world are the other Christians."

I can safely predict that not one of the groups discussed in these pages will agree that they deserve such mention. They will protest that they have been unfairly portrayed, that I have listened to "a few disgruntled former members" whose words should not be trusted, and who are not representative of the membership.

Let me assure the reader that the information I convey in this book is based not on my own fanciful imagination, but on the actual experiences of real people whose accounts can be independently verified and who, to the best of my knowledge, have been truthful about their encounters with churches that abuse. Despite the defensive protestations of authoritarian leaders that ex-members of their churches lie, distort the facts, and are "accusers of the brethren," there is abundant evidence that a serious problem of abuse exists in the Christian community.

Researching and writing Churches That Abuse was often a depressing experience because in recounting their days in abusive environments, the survivors I talked with had to relive the pain and confusion, and, yes, the anger. Sometimes they were embarrassed to admit that they had allowed these things to happen to them. They felt the absence of understanding people willing to help them "pick up the pieces."

It is my hope that this book will provide a context for understanding. If we have basic information about a subject, we can sometimes take preventative action. Regrettably, it is not always possible to "get through" to people already caught up in abusive churches. They do not see themselves as being manipulated, or in any danger of spiritual abuse. Hence, the frustration of parents, relatives, and friends who try to reach or "rescue" them. There are no easy solutions to this problem.

In the final analysis, the book presents a hopeful outlook. Not only can individuals leave abusive churches and achieve recovery and restoration, but there are encouraging signs that some groups are themselves recognizing the need for change and are moving away from the fringe toward the center. May their numbers increase.

Ronald Enroth
Santa Barbara, California
July 1991
Christianity Etc › Re: Churches That Abuse by vooks(op): 5:44pm On Oct 19, 2015
From the Jacket of the Book

Churches That Abuse

When does a church cross the line between conventional church status and fringe status? What is the nature of the process by which any given group devolves into a fringe church or movement? What are some of the signs or indicators that a given group is becoming abusive of its members and is headed for the margins? When should a member consider bailing out?

Churches That Abuse answers these and other important questions about abusive churches and groups that operate in this country — organizations and churches that are not necessarily characterized by doctrinal deviation but have particular traits that make them behavioral and sociological outsiders. It also helps readers identify and beware of abusive tendencies in more "normal" Christian churches.

Ronald Enroth identifies what is meant by "abusive churches." Then, he describes abusive churches, using the ten identifying traits of control-oriented leadership, spiritual elitism, manipulation of members, perceived persecution, lifestyle rigidity, emphasis on experience, suppression of dissent, harsh discipline of members, denunciation of other churches, and the painful exit process. Finally, he shows readers how to discern fringe churches and offers several "red flags" that can be discerned when conventional churches drift toward the fringe.

Churches That Abuse tells who the abusers are, how their techniques operate, and what the consequences are for marriages, small children, and teenagers. Where most books stop after reporting problem areas, this one continues and offers suggestions for those helping victims of abuse. And it can be read beneficially by those who are involved in abusive churches and have no one to turn to.
Christianity Etc › Churches That Abuse by vooks(op): 5:34pm On Oct 19, 2015
Every believer should read this book cover to cover at least thrice.
http://www.reveal.org/development/Churches_that_Abuse.pdf

Cc: Winsomex,Joagbaje,Gombs,MutleyLaff,Ayoku777,Esere826,MrPresident1,Goshen360,Shdemidemi,Scholar8200,an2elect

Christianity Etc › Re: Is Courtship Biblical Or Not?? by vooks: 11:35am On Oct 18, 2015
GraceInUSA:
So a very good friend of mine asked me this question last week and I was speechless. Can anyone, the pastors, bishops, evangelists, bible theologians and co give me answers with bible references please?
Why were you speechless?
Christianity Etc › Re: CONTROVERSY: Biblical Linking Of Arch-angel Michael And Jesus by vooks: 11:30am On Oct 18, 2015
EVarn:
Hebrew was talking about "messangers",the original meaning of angel is messanger.
Hebrew 1 was referring to the prophets of old.
Why would the old testament refer to angels as "sons of God",and the new testament say otherwise?.
Angels are messengers true but Hebrews is talking about angelic beings not prophets of old.
Angels in New Testament mean angelic beings unless you read different bibles than myself.

When you are not busy being confused, please read through Hebrews 1.

Hebrews 1:6 (KJV)
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.


Where do you find God commanding 'prophets of old' to worship Jesus when Jesus is born?


Cc Gombs,Image123,Scholar8200,Joagbaje
Christianity Etc › Re: The Whites Are Not Very Religious As Blacks But Progress Far Better Why? by vooks: 4:33am On Oct 18, 2015
Filmdirect:
Because our religion is without balance and is mixed with our ancestral animist worship which was steeped in fear and a passive response to gods that do everything and demand so much. We have just substituted Christianity but it is the same approach. We pacify God,giving tithes, fasting etc and then wait for Him to be pleased with us and do it for us. If it does not happen we wonder why and blame our family members.

The whites did this in ancient Europe until they threw off the shackles of catholicism, which was the dominant religion at the time, as well as the monarchy. Also currently they do not think religion means God handles everything in life, but helps them as THEY handle the affairs of life. We are contrary. We do not understand theology in the practical sense and so we suffer.
The Chinese, south Koreans, Japanese, Singapore are all highly developed and are deeply religious. Malaysia even with Islam is catching up.

Associating religion with underdevelopment is as intelligent as associating development with melanin. There I'd an inverse relationship between melanin and development.
Christianity Etc › Re: CONTROVERSY: Biblical Linking Of Arch-angel Michael And Jesus by vooks: 4:23am On Oct 18, 2015
EVarn:
The old testament refers to angels as "sons of God",the books of Genesis 6:4,Job 1:6,2:1 referred to angels as "sons of God",was the old testament referring to Jesus(using plural "sons")?.
Hebrews is New Testament so angels here mean angels .

If angels are sons and Jesus is a Son, then what contrast is being made? Isn't it nonsensical saying God did not say this to any of his angels but he said it to his angel?

Supposing v5 is talking about men not angels.

Hebrews 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 Being made so much better than the MEN, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the MEN said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?


If God gave Jesus a name better than MEN and he never said 'thou art my son' to any MAN but He said so to Jesus, Jesus can't be a man. Comprehndehuh
Christianity Etc › Re: CONTROVERSY: Biblical Linking Of Arch-angel Michael And Jesus by vooks: 7:06pm On Oct 17, 2015
Hebrews 1 dwells at length on why Jesus is not an angels but a Son. Read 4-14. Look

Hebrews 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?


-Jesus is MUCH BETTER than angels
-God said to Jesus and not any of his angels , 'you are my son'

Jesus being sent from God may be regarded as a messenger as far as His assignment is concerned, and it is with this that Reformers called Jesus Michael, but Jesus is clearly the Creator not a Creature like angels
Christianity Etc › Re: When Is Rapture . Pre Tribulation, Mid Tribulation Or Post Tribulation by vooks: 7:02pm On Oct 17, 2015
Appleyard:
Wrong! The rapture shall mark the begining of the great tribulation. The tribulation shall be the punishment for the foolish virgins who did not make it during the first flight, and they will now have to pay with their blood under torture for 3 and a half year, to deny Christ and accept the mark of the beast to live freely, work, buy and sell: which they must have to refuse to be saved.
The bride of Christ will never go through the tribulation period, otherwise the purpose of the salvation paid by Christ on the cross, would amount to nothing. But thank God, it won't be.
Could you be kind enough to show us from Revelation where rapture occurs?

Cc Image123,Scholar8200,Gombs,Joagbaje
Christianity Etc › Re: The Whites Are Not Very Religious As Blacks But Progress Far Better Why? by vooks: 4:57pm On Oct 17, 2015
Raymondenyi:
your assertions are largely false;
Yours is a hopelessly spurious nonsense
Christianity Etc › Re: When Is Rapture . Pre Tribulation, Mid Tribulation Or Post Tribulation by vooks: 3:35pm On Oct 17, 2015
Image123:
Visitor700 agrees with you, remember.
It takes the grace of God to exorcise sectarian positions from your spirit.
Christianity Etc › Re: The Whites Are Not Very Religious As Blacks But Progress Far Better Why? by vooks: 3:33pm On Oct 17, 2015
Raymondenyi:
This Question has always been bothering my heart. The Caucasians are not as religious as the blacks, but are doing very well economically and in standard of living, why?

Abroad, churches over there are still populated by black immigrants... Yet they(blacks) are still very backwards why? embarassed undecided.
You are inventing imaginary relationships; religion and standard of living.
Singapore is a deeply religious nation and they have risen to first world in a generation.
Kung Fu China is a religious nation and they are threatening everyone at the moment

Religion has nothing to do with standard of living. Get something sensible to ponder on cool
Christianity Etc › Re: When Is Rapture . Pre Tribulation, Mid Tribulation Or Post Tribulation by vooks: 3:20pm On Oct 17, 2015
Image123:
vooks blood dey hot like yam, why? You're one funny fellow, you're not willing to learn or discuss na, you already set the conclusion, you're the referee and you're also playing and shifting goalposts, creating theories and doctrines, insulting everything and everyone on the way etc. Take am easy, Life is beautiful.
Am quite brutal at smashing man made heresies and doctrines so please forgive me if am too hard on you my broda.
You can spare yourself misery and agony by composing your thoughts and ridding them of baseless claims cool

Do that and you will survive me, else run like a bat outta hell

Let's see who is unwilling to learn nor discuss
1. Image123 without any REASON finds rapture and resurrection of the dead in Revelation 4:1
2. Image123 without any reason nor scriptural basis conjures up 'church ages out of Revelation 2-4
3. Image123 without REASON nor scriptures invents MULTIPLE resurrections of the saints, at least two supposing I never missed any
Christianity Etc › Re: Why Is TB Joshua Hiding In Mexico? by vooks(op): 12:24pm On Oct 17, 2015
A quick summary of what TB Joshua has accomplished through proxies since he went under in late May
1. Releases a prophecy fulfillment video over India train derailing
2. Rejects the coroner's report as biased
3. Rebukes his pastors for inviting the sheeple to the anniversary of the collapsed building
4. Acquires a $60M Gulfstream (may have been quietly acquired before he went under as it was doing rounds in Mexico when he was having the crusade)
5. Donates some gifts to Ghanian police.

Let's just say the man is quite busy nursing his embarrassing sickness/injury that is immune to his morning water or he is terribly scared of Buhari jailing him but he is not too busy to pretend that he is still 'around'
Christianity Etc › Re: When Is Rapture . Pre Tribulation, Mid Tribulation Or Post Tribulation by vooks:
Image123:
Yes i'm fine and you? BTW, i answered all the questions you asked, maybe you do not like or agree with the answers though.
It's fidgeting that I find funny among grown ups



Jesus is INDEED the FIRST begotten from the dead, it is no wordplay. And like you have shown, it is because "He rose again to never die again". That makes His resurrection unique, He was glorified, and so will all believers at the resurrection. His is indeed FIRST of that order, others follow.
Good
This is unlike the 'first resurrection' or 'second death' which are phrases related to each other not to some other second or third resurrections, or some first or third deaths.
oh dear,
FIRST resurrection is coming to live of the saints, second resurrection is the next resurrection found a few verses further, isn't this common sense? Why is it FIRST if it is the only? Jesus is the FIRST begotten because others follow after. FIRST is not idle banter but LOGICAL ordering cheesy


What is "global resurrection", hope it's not one of those theory of men?(in vooks'voice of course).
It is MASS resurrection of the saints found in verse 4 of Revelation. I call it global because it involves very many, masses.

The term "first resurrection" is simply a phrase used in comparison to the "second death".
You simply imagined that didn't you grin grin
Second death follows first drag while first resurrection is followed by second resurrection of the unjust unto damnation. You don't SIMPLY skirt around scriptures as a Christian

There is no second resurrection in the sense. It's just like "first Adam"and "last Adam". The emphasis is more of contextual than numeric.
Oh mehn,
First, what is FIRST resurrection?
Rev 20:4 tells us, it is coming to life ,'and they lived' of dead men (saints)

Revelation 20:11 tells us sinners come to life much later. They are then thrown into the lake of fire. We are not told this is he second resurrection, but it is a resurrection nonetheless, else what is it?

The "contextual more than numerical' is a testament to a fertile determination to reject scriptures

The church age is simply the period we are in now. It is a reality and not a conjecture as we are living in it. We are the church and this is our time, our age. The church age is the period of the church on earth before the rapture.
it is conjecture. It is true we have church today and we have had church since Pentecost, it is also true we won't have church AFTER Rev 20:4 rapture, it is fertile imagination that the time between Pentecost and the slaying of the beast is divided into 7 'ages'


Like i have stated, i already answered these questions. The rapture event is different from the event in this text.
Like I have told you before, am least interested in Image123 sayings and epistles but in scriptures .

The rapture event takes place in Revelation 4:1, which is immediately after the church age(Revelation 2 and 3).
John is summoned to heaven in this verse and I pray I understand how you following other deluded souls take a theological leap from John to the Church, and how Rev2-3 epistles to 7 literal churches in Asia Minor translate to 'church age'


i answered this here when i said "At what point do we have Rapture, that's chapter4v1."
This is not answer but wild and baseless conjecture. Just because you say so don't make it so. I have been chewing these theories for the last 20 years so I know you did not conjure them, you are just regurgitating them and pretending you stumbled upon them on your own. I have no problem with that, I learn from others, but the difference between us is I have questioned them and found them utterly worthless and baseless .

If you could give me REASONS for your statements and stopped wistfully thinking that saying it makes it so, I'd let you off the hook.

Answered already, the rapture happens before the tribulation, and before Revelation 20.
Again, saying it does not prove it, simply say, ' it is written'. Bro you need to learn to speak like Jesus, breathing scriptures and not vainly intruding into things puffed up in your mind or quoting the latest prophecy 'experts'

The terms "the second coming", "the coming of the Lord", "the day of the Lord", "the last day", all bear broad and related/relative meanings. They refer to a long phase of events.
hmm

i already alluded to this, referring to Christ's first coming to earth. The first coming included many events in about 33years, there is His Birth, His Life, His Death, His Resurrection and His Ascension for instance.
Shameless lying. Jesus first Advent was his incarnation. What followed his coming is not his coming, he was here already. Meditate on that bro.

His second coming also has series of events lined up, and some are mysterious and symbolized.
Saying it does not make it so bro, there are no series to Jesus coming, ALL EYES will see Him. That is the coming, anything preceding it is not coming but simply something preceding His coming. Aight??

The 're is NOTHING mysterious or symbolized about Jesus coming. You are making this up to explain total absence of Jesus advent and rapture BEFORE Revelation 20.

For instance, the rapture event is a mystery. It's not plain or open for everyone to catch or understand.
It has been revealed by the Holy Spirit to apostle Paul in 1 Cor 15,Thessalonians and so forth.

What part of rapture do you find 'not plain or open to everyone to catch or understuand'? Are you in this category of men to whom it is hid? Could this be why you can't see rapture in Revelation 20 but you go on a wild goose chase in Revelation 4:1 which has NOTHING to do with rapture nor resurrection? cheesy cheesy cheesy

And of course, neither does understanding of it make anyone more qualified before God or whatever.
Very true, but it is blasphemy claiming rapture is what it is not and rejecting it. Rapture and resurrection happen at the same time so if I can find resurrection, I'd sure be reading about rapture and vice versa. So simple ain't it ?

And so, Revelations 2 and 3 is what we are experiencing till date. Another phase comes in at 4:1
Powerful nonsense .
I have told you before, claiming something does not make it so.

Why are 7 letter to seven Asia Minor churches what 'we are experiencing now'? Theories of men who hate the truth.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
Very good, you are quoting scriptures just like Jesus

After this, heaven, hereafter, trumpet, these are all pictures that indicate the new phase. In this phase, saints are in Heaven before God, His throne, the Lamb, angels etc, worshipping and praising.
what makes a LITERAL act of John a picture?

Your imagination is overworking. If John represents the Church, should EVEYTHING John does represent the Church? How silly and absurd does that sound?

Between chapters 4 to 7 or so, you see men and elders in Heaven, different from the souls who will resurrect in the famous Revelation 20.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


These were different from the elders, angels and saints busy before the throne and the Lamb in worship.
True but so what?

As we later see, some of the angels are fellow humans.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
utter nonsense. What makes this angel human? That the angel is a servant? cheesy cheesy cheesy

Somewhere in chapter 6 is where the tribulation begins, recall that already in chapters4 and 5, saints are in Heaven already worshipping, and they are different from the souls killed in tribulation.
when did they get to heaven? When John was summoned to heaven?

The Beast is first mentioned chapter 13 i think. So, there are some people in Heaven already before the beast or his mark.
This is true but it does not mean rapture happened before the Beast. If the Beast showed up today, there would be thousands of saints in heaven who went there before the Beast showed up. For instance, the saints who died the day before the Beast came.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
So God did not know how to deliver the beheaded? Funny guy. Did he too not know how to deliver Stephen and James? cheesy cheesy cheesy

Like i said from my initial post and have restated, the coming of the Lord is an event spanning a long period.
Like I said over and over, making a claim is one thing, proving it is another. Prove it.

Holistic study of the Bible helps to understand the context, time and event of each passage.
Holistic means with your theoretical bias in mind, right? grin grin

The Lord will first "come" FOR His saints(the rapture) before coming WITH His saints/angels/army.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This verse is talking of Jesus coming with the dead. Which event is this according to your eschatology, the former or the latter?

One happens in a twinkle of an eye, the other every eye will see Him.
You are out of your depth and Google should be your best friend. The twinkle of an eye is the clothing of mortality with immortality. It is instantaneous-1 Cor 15. The all eyes seeing Him is Jesus coming is not a private secret spiritual mumbo jumbo but a public and global even. They are not mutually exclusive, at Jesus' public return is when we shall be changed in a moment.

The fianl stage of the resurrection will be the resurrection of the tribulation souls as seen in Revelations 20. However, all saints will reign with Christ, and the second death has no power on them.
Resurrection had no stages, there is ONLY the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4 of the saints, and a later one of sinners in v11.

4:1 is a figment of deluded minds and totally baseless


For the umpteenth time, the phrases "the first resurrection"or the "last day" are more of symbolic and contextual, not literal or numeric.
Claiming it does not make it.
We have first and second death, we have first and second resurrection in Revelation 20.

The so called last day is not a last 24 hour day. It is a period spanning many years that include resurrection, reigning, and judgment. From all of scriptures, and chronologically looking at Revelations, we see that the Resurrection(call it first resurrection if it makes you more comfortable) is not a single one time event. It is a period, a package, like in government when we say the first republic, that lasts or spans events in about four/five years.
Just because one is a symbol does not make he other a symbol . Ever thought about it?

Last day means others were there before it. Think through that.


Your inability to demonstrate ANY resurrection prior to the Rev 20 is a testament to the fickleness of your multiple resurrection theories.

I had come to respect you as a reasonable debater but it turns out you are totally soul'd our to sectarian beliefs and you would sell your mother and commit sepukku than renounce them even when proved wrong.

I will give you a second chance to attempt these questions.

Specifically , where is rapture remotely hinted in Revelation prior to Revelation 20?


Cc: Gombs,Scholar8200,Goshen360,Joagbaje,Ayoku777,Esere826,MutleyLaff ,Shdemidemi,MrPresident1
Christianity Etc › Re: When Is Rapture . Pre Tribulation, Mid Tribulation Or Post Tribulation by vooks: 8:06pm On Oct 16, 2015
jared007:
Wouldn't it be wiser 2 prepare 4 a pre-trib rapture dan a post-trib rapture? Its only a fool dat chooses 2 go to hell to proove if hell is really eternal. Now in the rapture, the church departs d earth to meet christ in d clouds without a single battle(satan will be present on earth). In the second coming, Jesus returns with d church to battle d beast and false prophet (satan would be thrown into d bottomless pit so therefore he will be expelled 4rm earth) after d 1000 year reign of Christ, satan would be released and eventually defeated by God himself.
Actually, preparing for the worst is more sensible because it can only be a pleasant surprise if you got it bad.
Christianity Etc › Re: When Is Rapture . Pre Tribulation, Mid Tribulation Or Post Tribulation by vooks: 8:01pm On Oct 16, 2015
Image123:
Hehehehehehehe, vooks blood dey always hot not warm, adonknowwhy.
Image123 my Negro,
You are a reasonable broda,you can see through the shenanigans of multiple resurrection
Nairaland General › Re: Photos: TB Joshua Donates 20 Motorbikes And 3 Pickups To Ghana Police Service by vooks: 7:58pm On Oct 16, 2015
trapQ:
My nigga..... vooks won't see this
Negro,
Where is TB Joshua?
Christianity Etc › Re: When Is Rapture . Pre Tribulation, Mid Tribulation Or Post Tribulation by vooks: 12:33pm On Oct 16, 2015
Joagbaje:
This choice of language is unecesary. Communicate humbly . just in case you were wrong you can take it with grace .
Excellent point. I can say this with all humility; multiple resurrection of the saints is a heresy just as is a pre-Advent resurrection
Christianity Etc › Re: When Is Rapture . Pre Tribulation, Mid Tribulation Or Post Tribulation by vooks: 12:30pm On Oct 16, 2015
Gombs:
This is the singular reason I find it difficult to communicate with him!
Scape goat for your lack of depth in these matters grin
Bring in the gifs
Christianity Etc › Re: When Is Rapture . Pre Tribulation, Mid Tribulation Or Post Tribulation by vooks: 9:36pm On Oct 15, 2015
There is only ONE global resurrection/rapture of the saints in Revelation, and that happens in;

Revelation 20:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; [size=15pt]and they lived[/size] and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


AND THEY LIVED

The reason we have ONE and not two,three or four resurrections of th saints is because there is only ONE Resurrection. This is the one event Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24, John 6, Martha believed in it in John 11, Paul amplifies it in 1 Corinthians 15,1 Thessalonians 4 and 2 Thessalonians 2, Peter hints at it in 2 Peter 3 and in ALL these portions of scriptures,without exception, it happens at the COMING of Jesus Christ

Perish multiple-resurrection theories cool
Christianity Etc › Re: When Is Rapture . Pre Tribulation, Mid Tribulation Or Post Tribulation by vooks: 9:20pm On Oct 15, 2015
Scholar8200,Image123,Gombs,Joagbaje,Shdemidemi


[size=15pt]Could you please show me the TWO distinct resurrection of the saints in Revelation?[/size]
Christianity Etc › Re: When Is Rapture . Pre Tribulation, Mid Tribulation Or Post Tribulation by vooks:
Joagbaje,Image123,Gombs,Scholar8200,Goshen360

Meditate on the highlighted


1 Corinthians 15:20-23 King James Version (KJV)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming


RESURRECTION is AT the COMING of Jesus Christ.

Why were the Thessalonians spooked by the event being past? Because missing the FIRST RESURRECTION makes you a hell candidate according to Revelation 20
Christianity Etc › Re: When Is Rapture . Pre Tribulation, Mid Tribulation Or Post Tribulation by vooks: 8:42pm On Oct 15, 2015
Scholar8200:
So could you throw more light on Romans 11?
A heathen is not an Israelite after the flesh bro. Nobody here is advocating judaism!!! Why not take a tour through Romans11 etc?
I have asked you simple questions which you can't answer. Here they are;
1. Would a heathen converting to Judaism earn eternal life?
2. Do Jewish Judaists have eternal life?
3. If Yes to #2, why was Peter appointed an apostle to them? Why do they need Christ?
Christianity Etc › Re: When Is Rapture . Pre Tribulation, Mid Tribulation Or Post Tribulation by vooks:
Scholar8200:
Alright what is the message of Romans 11? Why the emphasis by Paul on the fulness of the Gentiles in that chapter? The Church consists of both Jews and Gentiles in Christ however Romans 11 agrees to the prophecies in the OT on the subject of God's plan and programme for the Israelites (after the flesh). Besides the 70 weeks of Daniel was concerning God's programme with Israel (Daniel 9:24a) however, the period of the Gentiles (described by Paul as a mystery in Ephesians 3) was not included but is the break between the 69th and 70th week.
Digression is your forte.
Please start a thread on Israel and the church and I wil kindly schol you through. The ONLY reason for this needless dithering and digression is because your theories can't stand scrutiny, so you keep throwing me off your trail

Think through this in your devotion
EVERY right or privilege a Jew has/had came through Abraham, and is appropriated by the Gentile through faith in Jesus

Galatians 3:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


There are no sacred cows,nor sacred/special races. Faith in Christ is the currency of heaven. Abraham was justified by faith.

Ephesians 2:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


God through Christ abolished the ONLY thin that separated Jews from Gentiles; the Law, making the Jew and the Gentile ONE

And that ONE man is the NEW creature in Christ or the Church which is the Kingdom of Priests

1 Peter 2:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Revelation 1:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


BTW,you are begining to sound like a dispensationalist Shdemidemi who chickene out of a public debate on the subject
Christianity Etc › Re: When Is Rapture . Pre Tribulation, Mid Tribulation Or Post Tribulation by vooks: 8:39pm On Oct 15, 2015
Joagbaje:
Thanks for your contribution. Firstly the scripture you quoted was 2thess 2. And not 1Thessalonians 2. As you indicated.
Secondly Paul was not making reference to the rapture but rather the second coming which will be 7 years after the rapture. He did the teaching to clear the air about the erroneous teaching about second coming. He firstly made know the preceding events to the second coming as you indicated but if you observe he also pointed out the mysterious event that must take place before all these. Which is the fact that the church will first be taken out of the way before emergence of the anti Christ .it's the presence of the church that is preventing the anti Christ from being made manifest. And this son of perdition will be revealed as soon as the church is taken up out of the way.

2Th 2:6 — 2Th 2:7
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
You will learn something when you let Paul speak and not your theories.

Paul is talking about the COMING of Jesus AND 'our gathering together unto him'

Please tell me why he puts these two events together if they are unrelated and years apart

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