₦airaland Forum

tiarabubu: Hey whats the meaning of this?

Usual mode of operation. Once he comes across a semi-decent argument, it needn't be earth shattering. He claims he's answered you but you are somehow unable to see the 'awesome' in the koran (which by the way he claims is so awesome that it's objective proof of allah's existence, I suppose we mortals will never grasp its awesome as I can't see what he means ), closes his ears, shouts LALALA, then retreats under the guise of being mature. I just thought of snagglepus(?) and his famous exits is all

If he bothered to have real debates, not the circlejercking he's used to here in /islam, his arguments might not be so weak. Then again, he seems to have very little to work with

~ Exit ~ stage left ~

musKeeto: Can I get a 'HALLELUIA'?

PRAISE PIKKIWOKI


But that really probably was the main purpose, it's really that simple

okeyxyz: oga wiegraf, please do tell, How exactly does this describe yahweh?
The OP is infact describing any entity or being or system, therefore describing nothing in particular.
How can you assume to be describing an invisible being when you fail to mention a single value\morales that might identify him? So how would you know him then? Anger and punishment does not identify anybody, since every sentient being has these characteristics, thus you are describing everybody/god.

What are you on about on this godly sunday morning okey? Did you even read the link? The entity is explicitly called yahweh, and has satan, helel, lucifer, metatron etc as servants (with lucifer eventually leading a revolt with one third of heavens army. satan and lucifer are somehow different yet the same in the series, don't ask me how. Just know satan usually works for yahweh while lucifer generally leads revolts). Etc etc. It is unambigiously their portrayal of yahweh.


It's interesting that a culture that does not revere judeo-christian myths would pick yahweh as the ultimate villain especially considering this is a series that uses a plethora of mythical xters from across the globe (except africa, well done africa spreading your culture)

http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Shin_Megami_Tensei_II_Demons

http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Shin_Megami_Tensei_III:_Nocturne_Demons

And that's just for 2 games. Lots of others from other games missing.


That's some mighty fine competition yahweh beat off there.

Morality already exists without god

Btw, tried editing this, spam bot got it again. Sowwy, I'll leave it as is since bot seems to like me. Could you please unban(?) it again? Thanks

https://www.nairaland.com/1091640/last-question-asimov#12804923

Lord Babs: if you reside in Africa and Nigeria especially, you'd hardly find it unbelievable. It's true. I still saw that lady today precisely.

Never mind me, I've seen similar actually. But usually they are not as stoopid. They tend to be religious, no doubt, but they'd have the numbers of the little b*stards probable papas and some other alhaji's as well. Plus maybe some land somewhere (women like land), or some shop. So the ones with that many b*stards aren't that poor, but that's just my experience.

Lord Babs: just my thouht...caveat emptor...'let the fücker beware'...'fûckers at owner's risk'...

Dohohohohoho

Brofist

Lord Babs: I know a lady(albeit there are many of her kind), she had 5 kids for 5 different men. Very ugly children. She lives a very poor life. Living alone with her mother and the 5 bastærds...all in a one-room apartment. They are extremely religious(xtian). Those 5 ugly bæstards ALWAYS constitute a nuisance in that neighbourhood: like shîtting and pîssing all over the walk ways, barging into other neighbours' homes, eating debris with pride...and all mannerism of juvenile deliquencies. I hear that some people suggested abortion for her at a stage, to avoid the innocent bæstards from suffering, without fathers and a working mother. But she shunned them, said it is a vile abomination in her church. I laughed in anger! So, it's not a worse vilest transgression to go on frivolously sleeping around and carelessly birthing bæstards, who can't even go to school! And to cap it up, an abortion could have been the viable saving grace, if only she had unveiled the irrational lid of her religious ignorance. If I were God, I would rather advise her to abort those shabby bæstards, than allowing them to live and yet I couldn't deliver them from the shambles of impecuniousity and cruelest disgusting life. Religion is really spoiling things big time!

I'm not even sure if this is true, but this is one of the main reasons I keep coming back to NL

It's the woman's body, it's her choice

esere826: @poster

common dude. You would easilly agree with me that this is a contrived story
paste this in the romance section, and you would receive the bashing of your life for such a story by wordly wise folks

The man no nack the first day,
then the second day he looked forward to nacking in the night
pleeeeeassssssss

since when did nacking become a night only affair?
u be small pikin?

'Tis a regular. Just can't tell which one spells like that

Now, now, I'll continue with my sort of of derailing. Well, the golden rule is part of the topic. I don't care to discuss that religion/cult, whatsitacalled? Islam atm

Paris-Love:
Secondly, the golden rule is not flawed. Would you like another person from another religion to come and blow you up because he believes your faith is wrong? No.

You haven't fully explored the options. Of course you wouldn't, but the guy blowing you up would reason that you would if only you were not ignorant, or could see things his way. They would reason that were they in your shoes, they'd like to be blown up. Like I've said, this is not a problem with just religious applications of the golden rule

The golden rule in its basic form is flawed because it assumes you and neighbors would have the same goals. Even you did have the same goals (by and large everybody does, some version of peace and prosperity), it assumes you're willing to use the same methods to achieve your goals.

If you altered it a bit, like say: "do unto others like they would like to be done unto themselves, so long as you all aren't trampling on anybody's rights", you might have something better.

Paris-Love:
Thirdly, I've nothing against homosexuality. As long as they do their thing without forcing it down at anyone's throat. You and I can’t become homosexuals. We can become thieve or lechers. All we have to do is to become immoral to lust after the wife of our neighbor or steal from him. But we can’t become homosexuals. It is a biological or psychological anomaly.[/color] :-/

Yeah, off topic, but it's the thing that blows my lid off. Your stance I'm very ok with, it's rather similar to mine actually. I don't understand how people would persecute them without any non-religious reasons then go around claiming they represent 'love'. It's the height of hypocrisy.

CrazyMan: See the trash you took your time to compose...you're the foool.

When supposedly matured individuals resort to insults when they have nothing sensible so say, then it means that our society is doomed.

If you can't express yourself in clear terms without insults, then you're the bigot and the one whose r.etarded..cos no sane person would make a foool of himself publicly as you just did.

So quit embarrassing yourself and shut down your system...cos its obvious that you've elapsed your brain usage for the day.

You misunderstand. I've called you
Bigot
Ret.arded
Cowardly
Eediot
Maybe a few others, can't be bothered to check atm

This is all true, so I can't see where the problem is. And I've dished out as much respect as your posts deserve, of course that's a matter of opinion though. I also never claim to be mature, and if you represent 'maturity' I want no part of it, thank you.

There's more, but it probably isn't worth the effort.

CrazyMan: I think you're the one whose stupid...you have strong reasons that keep you from engaging in homosexuality, yet you defend those that practice the act.

If its as normal as you think why rant here...why not look for a gay partner and start digging him you coward.

I wasn't ranting, I sort of will be from now on. I'm not sure if I'd call it ranting though as it's all true.

It's because, you bigoted re.tard, I don't care for it. I don't have 'strong reasons' for not engaging, it's real simple, I simply don't find the idea appealing. It's a matter of opinion*. And I never said it was normal, but even if it isn't normal how does that make it harmful? In an environment where you were the only black man, you wouldn't be normal, yes? Does that mean you should be persecuted?

On the matter of cowardice, let me rehash a bit. If I were one I wouldn't openly be an atheist in this country, would I? Considering bigots a-plently like you in this environs. You, on the other hand, seem to be afraid of considering homosexuality solely because of society's stance of the issue. So if that was not a factor, would you be homosexual? You couldn't know, as you've never even considered it out of fear. I am not shackled by that and have considered it, so I can tell you that frankly, society or not, it isn't for me. Then you call me cowardly? Do you comprehend a bit of how much of an eediot you're being yet?

Focus on your 'love', which you seem to have plenty of (at least that's admirable). Leave the reasoning to others, even if not me, it would seem to be beyond you.



*you know what they say about opinions? They are like a$$holes, everyone's got one, everyone thinks every other person's stinks.

CrazyMan: Please cut the crap...I've gotten my answer already.

Is it me, or a begging me to tell you how stoopid you are being?

CrazyMan: I guess I've convinced you then.

Don't be childish @crazy, if I decide to go down that path I can guaranty you sweet frustration. This is simple, the muslims think they are doing good just like the persecutors of the inquisition, or mao's henchmen, did as well. The golden rule is flawed.

CrazyMan: You know the funny thing with you guys (atheist) when you want to say something bad about christianity, most of your theories seem to be out dated because they all happened centuries ago.

Read my post properly I'm referring to modern day islam...I would suggest you do the same.

How many christians of today can you say are into witch hunting?

And I'm not sure where you are heading to. Were the witch hunts done in the name of xtianity, yes or no? Are the current ones taking place in akwa-ibom
involving children done in the name of xtianity, yes or no? Even the persecution of gays which you have no issues with are witch hunts. Just as communists relentlessly persecuting certain religious people (the ones that don't go around trying to force their will on everybody) were witch hunting as well. Past, future, religious or not, my point is many people would assume they were doing you and society good based on their beliefs, while in fact they would very clearly be doing the opposite to someone with a different set of beliefs (or unbelief).

CrazyMan: Homosexuality is bad and irritating.

Even most atheist share the same views with me...if you feel I'm wrong, then kindly explain how a man would make love to his fellow man.

Does that look normal to you?

Let's forget about religion...can you do it yes or no?


You should start by asking yourself the possible challenges you're likely to encounter..should you become a homosexual.

If you feel ok with your discoveries, then go ahead...I'm not stopping you.

But if you feel you can't engage in it, the what other non-religious reasons do you seek for?

This section is, unambigiously, you judging based solely on opinion. Would I do it? No. But wth does that have to do with anything? Do I think grown up members of our society should believe talking snakes and a tyrannical god exist? No. Should I then make it law that no one should harbor this beliefs simply because I don't like them? See where this can go? Unless you can show how homosexuality is objectively hampering you, your freedom, it is non of your business, simple. And if you insist on persecuting them simply because you don't like them, then I suppose I should start persecuting xtians for their incredulously poor logic. Oh wait, I believe that was done by some communists already. Did you enjoy that?

The first bold is frankly rather cowardly. Doing things solely because you're afraid of society's judgment. I suppose the progenitors of xtianity shouldn't have attempted establishing the religion as society was really antagonistic to them, yes?

The second bold is so disturbing. Seriously. Again, you don't like it hence it must be bad. What kind of reasoning is that? And somehow xtians point at atheists and call us arrogant.

CrazyMan: Lol...so I'll have to look hard before I would be able to see their so called love...

Sorry to disappoint you...I've checked already, and I found nothing.

Dissapointed? I should care how? Regardless, I probably find islam more revolting than you do, but to claim there's absolutely no good in it would be blatantly disingenuous.

CrazyMan: I disagree. Christianity can boast of love...

You seem to have problems comprehending the rest so I'll ignore that for now. Xtianity can also boast of the witch hunts and the inquisition, both carried out with the overall good of society as the primary concern. Even today, you have this baseless hate of homosexuality I see being spewed currently in other threads. It's disgusting, but I don't feel like challenging bigots atm. And if you think being gay is somehow wrong, I'll ask you again, as I've asked you before, to give me non-religious reasons to explain why it's bad.

Islam can also boast of love, not much imo but I'm sure if you look hard enough you'd find some.

CrazyMan: The bolded shows clearly that they haven't....cos only hatred can make you think of killing someone, without bothering whether you're going to die in the process.

Not when 72 virgins are involved. Not to mention, if they kill these infidels, who were on their way to hell in the first place, allah would be even more pleased with them. And the people these infidels could have influenced by turning them away from islam will now be less likely to end up as infidels. They also get to strike some of the fear of allah into other infidels. It does not require blind rage, just logic based on faulty premises.

So, by killing a few kaffirs, they've now brought the fear of allah to their relatives and loved ones, to their society. This fear of allah is something they would reason they'd wish they'd had had it been they were born into a family of kaffirs. In essence they'd view it as them doing a favor to their neighbors, bringing to their attention islam, saving some from going to hell. The deaths involved are just collateral damage in the quest for greater good.

This works for all religions, xtianity, even political religions. The golden rule is flawed.

Kay 17: It blew my mind.like the wheel reference.

We don't have spoiler tags here? Anyways, even though just a story, there are things that could be taken from here. Like deist gods issues; even if one existed, it would be highly illogical to assume it first cause. It would have to have been built, simple to complex, hence not a universal first cause (just one for our universe).

CrazyMan: So have you muslims been loving your neighbours as yourselves?

Believe it or not, they sort of have, even when blowing people up. For instance, a muslim might feel that were he not muslim he would like someone to force him to be a muslim so he could see the light, ditto xtians or any doctrine, philosophy, etc. Hence the problem with the golden rule.

manmustwac: Was just explaining to a member why we have a theist and atheist mods here besides no one has ever complained about my moderating unlike our muslim neighbour next door.


Yes your getting it right. Do you have to be a Politician to discuss a topic related to Politics? Do you have to be a Family man to discuss a topic related to Family? Do you have to be a Cultured person to discuss a topic related to culture? Do you have to be a Sports fanatic to discuss a topic related to Sports? Do you have to be a Traveller to discuss a topic in the Travel section. So why do you have to be Religious just to discuss a topic in the religious section?

Thanks again. Just wanted that clarified

Ihedinobi: Interesting pov. In fact, it appeals to me greatly. I'll however point out that everyone's a little bit of both. Even though I think each individual is more one than the other.

I will try to address it in the context of this discussion a little later though.

Yeah, if you were fully either you'd be in an asylum, but most people have a preference for one or the other.

Let me attempt to explain something using amateurish psychology/biology.

I could come up with some software program that has prospects of generating millions in naira monthly. Younger people might get it, but only because they're familiar with gates, zuckenberg et al. The vast majority of older people won't. They're not familiar with the IT world, and believe it or not, importantly, they cannot physically see/hold software*; software is virtual, or abstract. I could show up instead with some simple proposal based on physical goods which would generate only thousands a month yet this will generate more interest, perhaps even from the younger generation. Now note, this isn't a case of you can't teach an old dog new tricks, it's a case of people preferring to not use their imaginations. I'll call people that prefer the physical sensors, and those that prefer abstract/imagination intuitives. Sensors would learn new tricks if the payoff involved was confirmed, ie, they see a lot of people blinging using similar means. Their refusal to assign any weight to abstract ideas in particular is what I'm trying to highlight as a potential problem. Sensors could be creative pimping up a car, that's cool but it's a physical accomplishment with a mostly physical payoff. They could also be dependable at boring rote work, like say accounting, this is fine and indeed useful as well. But doing accounting is nothing new, it's a safe way to go about quietly building a fortune. So while sensors are useful, especially in day to day management of life, we happen to have far too many, to the point it's cancer. And this traits may be written into our genes according to some.

Why do I think cancer? Examples. A child shows prodigious talent as an artist, parent squishes it relentlessly. They won't want to consider that the child could become an unprecedented success, or that he would simply be happy doing what he's actually good at and loves, even if broke. They'd just want your average, normal family, success in the normal way. They'd reason, "How many successful artists do you see around?". At the end of the day had he become an artist success would have been a gamble yes, but society has now lost a potential genius that might have enacted some paradigm shift that would aid all greatly and gained a (probable) clerk instead. He might even be a rich clerk, doesn't change the fact that he'd still be a clerk, gaining material wealth but not providing society a key ingredient to success, new knowledge or innovation.

A woman I know whose been around the world, enough to speak multiple european languages comes back here and lives very much like she never left the village. Is she going to visit a doctor today? Na herbalist she dey go see. She grew up with herbalists, and all those european doctors with their alien knowledge don't know squat, they are speaking out of their behinds. I've seen this same woman needlessly hustle for 100 naira then immediately spend hundreds of thousands on non essential elements of her car. After all, the car needs to look good. Not to mention, it's just standard nigerian to needlessly hustle for every.single.naira. Even when the hustle actually costs you dearly when you factor in resources you wasted, opportunities missed, relationships spoiled, etc. Doesn't matter, that's how it's done in 9ja, don't think about it.

Or even aluu, without a doubt one of the reasons it generated such an outcry was that there was a video. You would think just being told (well, so long as there's irrefutable evidence it occurred) would be enough to send people over the edge, but they actually had to see the video first. They could not, or did not bother to, use their imaginations.

Understand this, these people are not some sort of evil, many would give a stranger the shirt on their backs if they could physically confirm his pain, they just choose to not rely on imagination. So it's very much a world view built around what they see, not what they think. Again, this is a trait considered biological by some.

I could go on and on with different scenarios. What does it lead to for a society? There are many positives, many negatives as well. Negatives include for instance, little value on gaining knowledge for the sake of gaining knowledge (a key reason the west is so successful is because it regards any knowledge as good knowledge). A general disregard for alien knowledge of all sorts, even if shown to be successful in other parts of the world (sure follow the whitey at times, but that is also a fad, mirroring their efforts without deliberating on them ourselves, providing new ideas from within, etc). The tendency to not notice glaring hypocrisy and shortsightedness. The tendency to not get really creative when the going gets tough, after all their brains are not attuned to that kind of use. The question of honor and conscience, the prospect of certain conclusions could torment an intuitive to no end, him imagining all sorts of horrors for even ostensibly benign situations. For sensors, demons of that nature aren't that much of a factor. Heck, intuitives could even readily take on work with no physical payoff at all, they'd just want knowledge or some abstract payoff in exchange. Quality of their work could be better as their goal would not just be cash. They'd more likely see money as a tool, not the goal. Etc,etc,etc,etc,etc (note how many of these are related to ignorance)

Tl: dr; focus on physical, probably a biological trait, is a core problem. This does not necessarily mean physical lovers (or sensors in another speak) are nefarious, we just have too many of them here, leading to a population prone to chronic shortsightedness
, among other things.


*Steve jobs understood this well. Many a hardcore techy has been left bewildered by apples success. They don't focus on flashy, they focus on the actual meat of the product. What can it do now? What can it possibly do in the future? In most of these categories apple fails miserably, but it succeeds in what matters a lot to the majority of sensors (who make up most of the population), looking flashy. Not to mention that as these people don't like to waste their energy thinking, so apples general simplified ui appeals.



Edits: nothing much

musKeeto: Amazing story... really love the end..

yeah, he did a nice job on this one. I love the way it escalates.

INTRO
Isaac Asimov was the most prolific science fiction author of all time. In fifty years he averaged a new magazine article, short story, or book every two weeks, and most of that on a manual typewriter. Asimov thought that The Last Question, first copyrighted in 1956, was his best short story ever. Even if you do not have the background in science to be familiar with all of the concepts presented here, the ending packs more impact than any other book that I've ever read. Don't read the end of the story first!

INTRO BY THE MAN HIMSELF
This is by far my favorite story of all those I have written.

After all, I undertook to tell several trillion years of human history in the space of a short story and I leave it to you as to how well I succeeded. I also undertook another task, but I won't tell you what that was lest l spoil the story for you.

It is a curious fact that innumerable readers have asked me if I wrote this story. They seem never to remember the title of the story or (for sure) the author, except for the vague thought it might be me. But, of course, they never forget the story itself especially the ending. The idea seems to drown out everything -- and I'm satisfied that it should.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The last question was asked for the first time, half in jest, on May 21, 2061, at a time when humanity first stepped into the light. The question came about as a result of a five-dollar bet over highballs, and it happened this way:

Alexander Adell and Bertram Lupov were two of the faithful attendants of Multivac. As well as any human beings could, they knew what lay behind the cold, clicking, flashing face -- miles and miles of face -- of that giant computer. They had at least a vague notion of the general plan of relays and circuits that had long since grown past the point where any single human could possibly have a firm grasp of the whole.

Multivac was self-adjusting and self-correcting. It had to be, for nothing human could adjust and correct it quickly enough or even adequately enough. So Adell and Lupov attended the monstrous giant only lightly and superficially, yet as well as any men could. They fed it data, adjusted questions to its needs and translated the answers that were issued. Certainly they, and all others like them, were fully entitled to share in the glory that was Multivac's.

For decades, Multivac had helped design the ships and plot the trajectories that enabled man to reach the Moon, Mars, and Venus, but past that, Earth's poor resources could not support the ships. Too much energy was needed for the long trips. Earth exploited its coal and uranium with increasing efficiency, but there was only so much of both.

But slowly Multivac learned enough to answer deeper questions more fundamentally, and on May 14, 2061, what had been theory, became fact.

The energy of the sun was stored, converted, and utilized directly on a planet-wide scale. All Earth turned off its burning coal, its fissioning uranium, and flipped the switch that connected all of it to a small station, one mile in diameter, circling the Earth at half the distance of the Moon. All Earth ran by invisible beams of sunpower.

Seven days had not sufficed to dim the glory of it and Adell and Lupov finally managed to escape from the public functions, and to meet in quiet where no one would think of looking for them, in the deserted underground chambers, where portions of the mighty buried body of Multivac showed. Unattended, idling, sorting data with contented lazy clickings, Multivac, too, had earned its vacation and the boys appreciated that. They had no intention, originally, of disturbing it.

They had brought a bottle with them, and their only concern at the moment was to relax in the company of each other and the bottle.

"It's amazing when you think of it," said Adell. His broad face had lines of weariness in it, and he stirred his drink slowly with a glass rod, watching the cubes of ice slur clumsily about. "All the energy we can possibly ever use for free. Enough energy, if we wanted to draw on it, to melt all Earth into a big drop of impure liquid iron, and still never miss the energy so used. All the energy we could ever use, forever and forever and forever."

Lupov cocked his head sideways. He had a trick of doing that when he wanted to be contrary, and he wanted to be contrary now, partly because he had had to carry the ice and glassware. "Not forever," he said.

"Oh, hell, just about forever. Till the sun runs down, Bert."

"That's not forever."

"All right, then. Billions and billions of years. Ten billion, maybe. Are you satisfied?"

Lupov put his fingers through his thinning hair as though to reassure himself that some was still left and sipped gently at his own drink. "Ten billion years isn't forever."

"Well, it will last our time, won't it?"

"So would the coal and uranium."

"All right, but now we can hook up each individual spaceship to the Solar Station, and it can go to Pluto and back a million times without ever worrying about fuel. You can't do that on coal and uranium. Ask Multivac, if you don't believe me.

"I don't have to ask Multivac. I know that."

"Then stop running down what Multivac's done for us," said Adell, blazing up, "It did all right."

"Who says it didn't? What I say is that a sun won't last forever. That's all I'm saying. We're safe for ten billion years, but then what?" Lupow pointed a slightly shaky finger at the other. "And don't say we'll switch to another sun."

There was silence for a while. Adell put his glass to his lips only occasionally, and Lupov's eyes slowly closed. They rested.

Then Lupov's eyes snapped open. "You're thinking we'll switch to another sun when ours is done, aren't you?"

"I'm not thinking."

"Sure you are. You're weak on logic, that's the trouble with you. You're like the guy in the story who was caught in a sudden shower and who ran to a grove of trees and got under one. He wasn't worried, you see, because he figured when one tree got wet through, he would just get under another one."

"I get it," said Adell. "Don't shout. When the sun is done, the other stars will be gone, too."

"Darn right they will," muttered Lupov. "It all had a beginning in the original cosmic explosion, whatever that was, and it'll all have an end when all the stars run down. Some run down faster than others. Hell, the giants won't last a hundred million years. The sun will last ten billion years and maybe the dwarfs will last two hundred billion for all the good they are. But just give us a trillion years and everything will be dark. Entropy has to increase to maximum, that's all."

"I know all about entropy," said Adell, standing on his dignity.

"The hell you do."

"I know as much as you do."

"Then you know everything's got to run down someday."

"All right. Who says they won't?"

"You did, you poor sap. You said we had all the energy we needed, forever. You said 'forever.'

It was Adell's turn to be contrary. "Maybe we can build things up again someday," he said.

"Never."

"Why not? Someday."

"Never."

"Ask Multivac."

"You ask Multivac. I dare you. Five dollars says it can't be done."

Adell was just drunk enough to try, just sober enough to be able to phrase the necessary symbols and operations into a question which, in words, might have corresponded to this: Will mankind one day without the net expenditure of energy be able to restore the sun to its full youthfulness even after it had died of old age?

Or maybe it could be put more simply like this: How can the net amount of entropy of the universe be massively decreased?

Multivac fell dead and silent. The slow flashing of lights ceased, the distant sounds of clicking relays ended.

Then, just as the frightened technicians felt they could hold their breath no longer, there was a sudden springing to life of the teletype attached to that portion of Multivac. Five words were printed: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

"No bet," whispered Lupov. They left hurriedly.

By next morning, the two, plagued with throbbing head and cottony mouth, had forgotten the incident.

Jerrodd, Jerrodine, and Jerrodette I and II watched the starry picture in the visiplate change as the passage through hyperspace was completed in its non-time lapse. At once, the even powdering of stars gave way to the predominance of a single bright shining disk, the size of a marble, centered on the viewing-screen.

"That's X-23," said Jerrodd confidently. His thin hands clamped tightly behind his back and the knuckles whitened.

The little Jerrodettes, both girls, had experienced the hyperspace passage for the first time in their lives and were self-conscious over the momentary sensation of insideoutness. They buried their giggles and chased one another wildly about their mother, screaming, "We've reached X-23 -- we've reached X-23 -- we've --"

"Quiet, children." said Jerrodine sharply. "Are you sure, Jerrodd?"

"What is there to be but sure?" asked Jerrodd, glancing up at the bulge of featureless metal just under the ceiling. It ran the length of the room, disappearing through the wall at either end. It was as long as the ship.

Jerrodd scarcely knew a thing about the thick rod of metal except that it was called a Microvac, that one asked it questions if one wished; that if one did not it still had its task of guiding the ship to a preordered destination; of feeding on energies from the various Sub-galactic Power Stations; of computing the equations for the hyperspatial jumps.

Jerrodd and his family had only to wait and live in the comfortable residence quarters of the ship. Someone had once told Jerrodd that the "ac" at the end of "Microvac" stood for ''automatic computer" in ancient English, but he was on the edge of forgetting even that.

Jerrodine's eyes were moist as she watched the visiplate. "I can't help it. I feel funny about leaving Earth."

"Why, for Pete's sake?" demanded Jerrodd. "We had nothing there. We'll have everything on X-23. You won't be alone. You won't be a pioneer. There are over a million people on the planet already. Good Lord, our great-grandchildren will be looking for new worlds because X-23 will be overcrowded." Then, after a reflective pause, "I tell you, it's a lucky thing the computers worked out interstellar travel the way the race is growing."

"I know, I know," said Jerrodine miserably.

Jerrodette I said promptly, "Our Microvac is the best Microvac in the world."

"I think so, too," said Jerrodd, tousling her hair.

It was a nice feeling to have a Microvac of your own and Jerrodd was glad he was part of his generation and no other. In his father's youth, the only computers had been tremendous machines taking up a hundred square miles of land. There was only one to a planet. Planetary ACs they were called. They had been growing in size steadily for a thousand years and then, all at once, came refinement. In place of transistors, had come molecular valves so that even the largest Planetary AC could be put into a space only half the volume of a spaceship.

Jerrodd felt uplifted, as he always did when he thought that his own personal Microvac was many times more complicated than the ancient and primitive Multivac that had first tamed the Sun, and almost as complicated as Earth's Planetarv AC (the largest) that had first solved the problem of hyperspatial travel and had made trips to the stars possible.

"So many stars, so many planets," sighed Jerrodine, busy with her own thoughts. "I suppose families will be going out to new planets forever, the way we are now."

"Not forever," said Jerrodd, with a smile. "It will all stop someday, but not for billions of years. Many billions. Even the stars run down, you know. Entropy must increase.

"What's entropy, daddy?" shrilled Jerrodette II.

"Entropy, little sweet, is just a word which means the amount of running-down of the universe. Everything runs down, you know, like your little walkie-talkie robot, remember?"

"Can't you just put in a new power-unit, like with my robot?"

"The stars are the power-units. dear. Once they're gone, there are no more power-units."

Jerrodette I at once set up a howl. "Don't let them, daddy. Don't let the stars run down."

"Now look what you've done," whispered Jerrodine, exasperated.

"How was I to know it would frighten them?" Jerrodd whispered back,

"Ask the Microvac," wailed Jerrodette I. "Ask him how to turn the stars on again."

"Go ahead," said Jerrodine. "It will quiet them down." (Jerrodette II was beginning to cry, also.)

Jerrodd shrugged. "Now, now, honeys. I'll ask Microvac. Don't worry, he'll tell us."

He asked the Microvac, adding quickly, "Print the answer."

Jerrodd cupped the strip or thin cellufilm and said cheerfully, "See now, the Microvac says it will take care of everything when the time comes so don't worry."

Jerrodine said, "And now, children, it's time for bed. We'll be in our new home soon."

Jerrodd read the words on the cellufilm again before destroying it: INSUFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

He shrugged and looked at the visiplate. X-23 was just ahead.

VJ-23X of Lameth stared into the black depths of the three-dimensional, small-scale map of the Galaxy and said, "Are we ridiculous, I wonder in being so concerned about the matter?"

MQ-17J of Nicron shook his head. "I think not. You know the Galaxy will be filled in five years at the present rate of expansion."

Both seemed in their early twenties, both were tall and perfectly formed.

"Still," said VJ-23X, "I hesitate to submit a pessimistic report to the Galactic Council."

"I wouldn't consider any other kind of report. Stir them up a bit. We've got to stir them up."

VJ-23X sighed. "Space is infinite. A hundred billion Galaxies are there for the taking. More."

"A hundred billion is not infinite and it's getting less infinite all the time. Consider! Twenty thousand years ago, mankind first solved the problem of utilizing stellar energy, and a few centuries later, interstellar travel became possible. It took mankind a million years to fill one small world and then only fifteen thousand years to fill the rest of the Galaxy. Now the population doubles every ten years --

VJ-23X interrupted. "We can thank immortality for that."

"Very well. Immortality exists and we have to take it into account. I admit it has its seamy side, this immortality. The Galactic AC has solved many problems for us, but in solving the problem of preventing old age and death, it has undone all its other solutions."

"Yet you wouldn't want to abandon life, I suppose."

"Not at all," snapped MQ-17J, softening it at once to, "Not yet. I'm by no means old enough. How old are you?"

"Two hundred twenty-three. And you?"

"I'm still under two hundred. --But to get back to my point. Population doubles every ten years. Once this GaIaxy is filled, we'll have filled another in ten years. Another ten years and we'll have filled two more. Another decade, four more. In a hundred years, we'll have filled a thousand Galaxies. In a thousand years, a million Galaxies. In ten thousand years, the entire known universe. Then what?"

VJ-23X said, "As a side issue, there's a problem of transportation. I wonder how many sunpower units it will take to move Galaxies of individuals from one Galaxy to the next."

"A very good point. Already, mankind consumes two sunpower units per year."

"Most of it's wasted. After all, our own Galaxy alone pours out a thousand sunpower units a year and we only use two of those."

"Granted, but even with a hundred per cent efficiency, we only stave off the end. Our energy requirements are going up in a geometric progression even faster than our population. We'll run out of energy even sooner than we run out of Galaxies. A good point. A very good point."

"We'll just have to build new stars out of interstellar gas."

"Or out of dissipated heat?" asked MQ-17J, sarcastically.

"There may be some way to reverse entropy. We ought to ask the Galactic AC."

VJ-23X was not really serious, but MQ-17J pulled out his AC-contact from his pocket and placed it on the table before him.

"I've half a mind to," he said. "It's something the human race will have to face someday."

He stared somberly at his small AC-contact. It was only two inches cubed and nothing in itself, but it was connected through hyperspace with the great Galactic AC that served all mankind. Hyperspace considered, it was an integral part of the Galactic AC.

MQ-17J paused to wonder if someday in his immortal life he would get to see the Galactic AC. It was on a little world of its own, a spider webbing of force-beams holding the matter within which surges of submesons took the place of the old clumsy molecular valves. Yet despite its sub-etheric workings, the Galactic AC was known to be a full thousand feet across.

MQ-17J asked suddenly of his AC-contact, "Can entropy ever be reversed?"

VJ-23X looked startled and said at once, "Oh, say, I didn't really mean to have you ask that."

"Why not?"

"We both know entropy can't be reversed. You can't turn smoke and ash back into a tree."

"Do you have trees on your world?" asked MQ-17J.

The sound of the Galactic AC startled them into silence. Its voice came thin and beautiful out of the small AC-contact on the desk. It said: THERE IS INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

VJ-23X said, "See!"

The two men thereupon returned to the question of the report they were to make to the Galactic Council.

Zee Prime's mind spanned the new Galaxy with a faint interest in the countless twists of stars that powdered it. He had never seen this one before. Would he ever see them all? So many of them, each with its load of humanity. --But a load that was almost a dead weight. More and more, the real essence of men was to be found out here, in space.

Minds, not bodies! The immortal bodies remained back on the planets, in suspension over the eons. Sometimes they roused for material activity but that was growing rarer. Few new individuals were coming into existence to join the incredibly mighty throng, but what matter? There was little room in the Universe for new individuals.

Zee Prime was roused out of his reverie upon coming across the wispy tendrils of another mind.

"I am Zee Prime," said Zee Prime. "And you?"

"I am Dee Sub Wun. Your Galaxy?"

"We call it only the Galaxy. And you?"

"We call ours the same. All men call their Galaxy their Galaxy and nothing more. Why not?"

"True. Since all Galaxies are the same."

"Not all Galaxies. On one particular Galaxy the race of man must have originated. That makes it different."

Zee Prime said, "On which one?"

"I cannot say. The Universal AC would know."

"Shall we ask him? I am suddenly curious."

Zee Prime's perceptions broadened until the Galaxies themselves shrank and became a new, more diffuse powdering on a much larger background. So many hundreds of billions of them, all with their immortal beings, all carrying their load of intelligences with minds that drifted freely through space. And yet one of them was unique among them all in being the original Galaxy. One of them had, in its vague and distant past, a period when it was the only Galaxy populated by man.

Zee Prime was consumed with curiosity to see this Galaxy and he called out: "Universal AC! On which Galaxy did mankind originate?"

The Universal AC heard, for on every world and throughout space, it had its receptors ready, and each receptor led through hyperspace to some unknown point where the Universal AC kept itself aloof.

Zee Prime knew of only one man whose thoughts had penetrated within sensing distance of Universal AC, and he reported only a shining globe, two feet across, difficult to see.

"But how can that be all of Universal AC?" Zee Prime had asked.

"Most of it," had been the answer, "is in hyperspace. In what form it is there I cannot imagine."

Nor could anyone, for the day had long since passed, Zee Prime knew, when any man had any part of the making of a Universal AC. Each Universal AC designed and constructed its successor. Each, during its existence of a million years or more accumulated the necessary data to build a better and more intricate, more capable successor in which its own store of data and individuality would be submerged.

The Universal AC interrupted Zee Prime's wandering thoughts, not with words, but with guidance. Zee Prime's mentality was guided into the dim sea of Galaxies and one in particular enlarged into stars.

A thought came, infinitely distant, but infinitely clear. "THIS IS THE ORIGINAL GALAXY OF MAN."

But it was the same after all, the same as any other, and Lee Prime stifled his disappointment.

Dee Sub Wun, whose mind had accompanied the other, said suddenly, "And is one of these stars the original star of Man?"

The Universal AC said, "MAN'S ORIGINAL STAR HAS GONE NOVA. IT IS A WHITE DWARF"

"Did the men upon it die?" asked Lee Prime, startled and without thinking.

The Universal AC said, "A NEW WORLD, AS IN SUCH CASES WAS CONSTRUCTED FOR THEIR PHYSICAL BODIES IN TlME."

"Yes, of course," said Zee Prime, but a sense of loss overwhelmed him even so. His mind released its hold on the original Galaxy of Man, let it spring back and lose itself among the blurred pin points. He never wanted to see it again.

Dee Sub Wun said, "What is wrong?"

"The stars are dying. The original star is dead."

"They must all die. Why not?"

"But when all energy is gone, our bodies will finally die, and you and I with them."

"It will take billions of years."

"I do not wish it to happen even after billions of years. Universal AC! How may stars be kept from dying?"

Dee Sub Wun said in amusement, "You're asking how entropy might be reversed in direction."

And the Universal AC answered: "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."

Zee Prime's thoughts fled back to his own Galaxy. He gave no further thought to Dee Sub Wun, whose body might be waiting on a Galaxy a trillion light-years away, or on the star next to Zee Prime's own. It didn't matter.

Unhappily, Zee Prime began collecting interstellar hydrogen out of which to build a small star of his own. If the stars must someday die, at least some could yet be built.

Man considered with himself, for in a way, Man, mentally, was one. He consisted of a trillion, trillion, trillion ageless bodies, each in its place, each resting quiet and incorruptible, each cared for by perfect automatons, equally incorruptible, while the minds of all the bodies freely melted one into the other, indistinguishable.

Man said, "The Universe is dying."

Man looked about at the dimming Galaxies. The giant stars, spendthrifts, were gone long ago, back in the dimmest of the dim far past. Almost all stars were white dwarfs, fading to the end.

New stars had been built of the dust between the stars, some by natural processes, some by Man himself, and those were going, too. White dwarfs might yet be crashed together and of the mighty forces so released, new stars built, but only one star for every thousand white dwarfs destroyed, and those would come to an end, too.

Man said, "Carefully husbanded, as directed by the Cosmic AC, the energy that is even yet left in all the Universe will last for billions of years."

"But even so," said Man, "eventually it will all come to an end. However it may be husbanded, however stretched out, the energy once expended is gone and cannot be restored. Entropy must increase forever to the maximum."

Man said, "Can entropy not be reversed? Let us ask the Cosmic AC."

The Cosmic AC surrounded them but not in space. Not a fragment of it was in space. It was in hyperspace and made of something that was neither matter nor energy. The question of its size and nature no longer had meaning in any terms that Man could comprehend.

"Cosmic AC," said Man, "how may entropy be reversed?"

The Cosmic AC said, "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."

Man said, "Collect additional data."

The Cosmic AC said, 'I WILL DO S0. I HAVE BEEN DOING SO FOR A HUNDRED BILLION YEARS. MY PREDECESORS AND I HAVE BEEN ASKED THIS QUESTION MANY TlMES. ALL THE DATA I HAVE REMAINS INSUFFICIENT.

"Will there come a time," said Man, 'when data will be sufficient or is the problem insoluble in all conceivable circumstances?"

The Cosmic AC said, "NO PROBLEM IS INSOLUBLE IN ALL CONCEIVABLE CIRCUMSTANCES."

Man said, "When will you have enough data to answer the question?"

The Cosmic AC said, "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."

"Will you keep working on it?" asked Man.

The Cosmic AC said, "I WILL."

Man said, "We shall wait."

The stars and Galaxies died and snuffed out, and space grew black after ten trillion years of running down.

One by one Man fused with AC, each physical body losing its mental identity in a manner that was somehow not a loss but a gain.

Man's last mind paused before fusion, looking over a space that included nothing but the dregs of one last dark star and nothing besides but incredibly thin matter, agitated randomly by the tag ends of heat wearing out, asymptotically, to the absolute zero.

Man said, "AC, is this the end? Can this chaos not be reversed into the Universe once more? Can that not be done?"

AC said, "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."

Man's last mind fused and only AC existed -- and that in hyperspace.

Matter and energy had ended and with it space and time. Even AC existed only for the sake of the one last question that it had never answered from the time a half-drunken computer [technician] ten trillion years before had asked the question of a computer that was to AC far less than was a man to Man.

All other questions had been answered, and until this last question was answered also, AC might not release his consciousness.

All collected data had come to a final end. Nothing was left to be collected.

But all collected data had yet to be completely correlated and put together in all possible relationships.

A timeless interval was spent in doing that.

And it came to pass that AC learned how to reverse the direction of entropy.

But there was now no man to whom AC might give the answer of the last question. No matter. The answer -- by demonstration -- would take care of that, too.

For another timeless interval, AC thought how best to do this. Carefully, AC organized the program.

The consciousness of AC encompassed all of what had once been a Universe and brooded over what was now Chaos. Step by step, it must be done.

And AC said, "LET THERE BE LIGHT!"

And there was light --

hadbak: Y all of u only ranting? U couldn't make any reasonable Coment as regards d post. Well I want to tell u I didn't post hia intentionaly it jst hapened, take it or leave it as I'm not hia to pampar/scold anyone, plus dey wunt b a nxt tym. @inurmind-ur a terible liar if u say xtian dnt post in d islam section @wiegraf- oh ur pathetic!ur acusations are obviosly malicious. Is it cus ur broda in faith realised d truth n converted to islam dat causing tis rantings?ur problems are ur so full in ur ignorance dat u coudnt even difreciate truth from falshood. If I was u, I wil calm down,read n make sense out of d post. I don't totally blame u..tis is comon amonge xtians especialy Nigerian Xtians!

Heh heh, you seem confused, ranting where? To get a decent answer, you have to make a descent post. You posted this days ago anyways and you reply only now? Your aim, proselytize? propaganda?

And see your small, petty brain. Why should I be sad if someone converted? Wtf, why in the world? So long as it made said person happy and said person didn't infringe on the rights of others, WTF SHOULD ANYONE CARE? HOW IS IT ANYONE ELSE'S BIZ? If the person becomes a douche and starts shouting sharia or something similar then I'd be concerned, but just converting? Heck, I'd even be happy for the person so long as the person were happier and knew how to respect the rights of others. To be fair, you might assume I'd be disappointed because you know most of you are simply incapable of respecting freedom, and are probably proud of that. Cancer. You think you should be on a constant mission to convert others? I see, there's no compulsion in religion abi?

Don't post utter tripe and expect no reaction, dig deep and apply some thought before making threads pls, rather than (very badly) repeating a topic that is raped several times daily. And I'm not an xtian

Seun: If your moderation is biased against any religion in any way, you will have to answer to me. We don't condone biased moderating. Thanks.

Now I'm confused. Some dude implied atheists shouldn't be on a 'religion' forum, so I just wanted to clarify. Mmw's answer indicates we are allowed here. His answer also doesn't seem to imply he intends to be biased, more like to make sure moderating stays in perspective, or democratic, unlike islam's section where maclatunji is more or else the only arbiter. Am I getting this right?

musKeeto: Feel like smacking those glasses off your face.. stop being a Nigerian

But wiegraf, too long.. put some cartoons in the middle, it'd make it more interesting..


I'll read it over the weekend..

And as recommended elsewhere a miracle or two to attract the theists.

I think one could get by with just the green bits, but even that is long

There are lovely nuggets in there though, many your average atheist will know but it's nice to see them put eloquently. The dude is some sort of pioneer in sociobiology working from harvard, e o wilson is the name

Sweetnecta: well, it is islam that stands between anything goes of world domination intention of the atheist and their satanic supporter and right to worship God.

wtf do you smoke?
wonders shall never end

manmustwac: Like i said to make sure that both sides of the scales remain equally balanced. Meaning that you atheists will not complain that you're being unfairly treated and persecuted like what Maclatunji is doing in the Islamic section

Thanks!

Seriously, reading through it again, just the green bits, there's a lot of gold in there, especially towards the end. Stick through it dammit!

Logicboy03: Too long, did not read.

Bolded is quite the understatement. Try reading the green bits, still long like that but perhaps better...