₦airaland Forum

donnffd:
Winner01...Nice post you have there, almost had me convinced but as usual, there are flaws to your argument

Finetuning

For you to claim the universe is fine-tuned, you must first have a distribution of universes to compare. You only have a sample size of one,so how the hell can you claim by all means that the universe was fine tuned...its like finding a snowflake and claiming since its finely structured, it must be a special one and must have been tuned without comparing it with other snowflakes

Observable evidence is what prompted scientists to conclude that the universe is fine tuned. They were simply working base on available evidence.

Need i see other watches before i assume that one was consciously designed?

donnffd:
Irreducible complexity

I was certain you would come up with the eye and how it cannot arise from evolution by blind luck and random chance. One thing you dont understand is that evolution is not by blind luck and random chance,it is the opposite of chance, random mutations occur yes, but the filtering mechanism is very specific(Natural selection).
Heres a series of eyes that shows that its far from being irreducible complex

You missed this part in the article:

"A common objection to the use of the eye as an example of irreducible complexity is that there are a number of different kinds of eyes found in nature and they exhibit a wide variety of complexity. This observation is used to make a case for evolution. But what we see in nature is not a series of steps in an evolutionary chain. Rather, we see a variety of irreducibly complex biological machines that have the same basic function".

I suggest you re-read that part.

Anas09:
He can't pick anyone from anywhere.
Am praying for the atheists here.

I think you meant "Can".

ValentineMary:
Why would God have to make d universe chaotic and fine tune a particular section I can't purposely make all my stations unclear just to put myself through d stress of fine tuning a particular station. Unless I did not make d T.V and antenna perfectly

Looks chaotic to man simply because it is not his system., His system is perfect for him...

You may build a perfect house fully Air conditioned and then set up a poultry section for day old chicks. You may make use of the normal woodshavings, heat or warmth, feeders and troughs to grow the chicks e.t.c. Then a chick finds its way out and wonders why everywhere is cold, slippery, and uncondusive for its survival.


God created the system, and finetuned his system for one of his creations. Its the obvious.

ValentineMary:
U don change mouth from fine tunning to fit system. A fit system needs no fine tunning.

You know, you are funny, you dont have any potent rebuttal to this. You just dont want to accept the obvious.

God finetuned the earth to fit his creations in. Plus a fit system is already fine tuned.

You remember how you fine tune your black and white T.V back in the days, for a purpose (to watch yout favourite channel maybe)

onetrack:
This relies on faith, of which I have none. And sincerity is entirely subjective.

im at loss on what you mean by faith. And sincerity my friend is objective. Else i can be sincere that Hitler was a good man and you, you have no grounds to refute that.

ValentineMary:
If God made d rules then he is breaking it by fine tuning

No my friend, try not to be stubborn with this one. You do not need to break your rules before you can fit your creation into your system or better still, put your creations into a fit system.

onetrack:
May I quote from the article in that link:



God cannot be confirmed experimentally either. The writer has destroyed his own argument. The rest of the article is just speculation.

You meant to say "God cannot be totally discovered by the human ability". But we can keep making discoveries about our world and at the same time sincerely seek to know God.

People often ask how I found God. I was never taught to believe in him. I didn’t read books or go to church to discover him. I simply knew he was with me. My path to faith may not seem so unusual if you know the miracle of my life—a miracle of survival that could only have happened by the hand of God.

I grew up in South Africa, a normal, healthy child, until I came home from school one day in 1988, complaining of a sore throat. I was 12 years old. From that day on, my parents fought for a diagnosis from doctors who couldn’t explain what was happening to me. First I stopped eating. Then I stopped speaking. I lost all sense of time. The bonsai trees I had once tended grew dense as I lost mobility in my limbs. My body weakened as I stopped using it.

Test after test was run, but doctors couldn’t say what had happened to me. They concluded I had suffered profound brain damage due to a degenerative neurological disease, and that I would soon die. I spent my days in a center for children with severe disabilities, and my parents cared for me at home at night.

For the first four years after I fell ill, I was lost in a dark, unseeing world, unaware of anything around me. I was awake but unresponsive. I have no memory of these years. After the medical profession had washed its hands of me, my parents were left to care for me, having exhausted every avenue in search of a cure.

Then, when I was around 16, I started to become aware again. It was flashes at first, moments of awareness that left me almost as soon as they appeared. It took time for me to realize that I was completely alone in a sea of people.

Since my limbs were unresponsive and my voice was mute, I was entombed in my own body. I couldn’t tell anyone that I had returned to life. People knew that I had become more responsive, but they still believed I was severely brain damaged. And so I was fed and cleaned while being sat in front of reruns of Barney. I dreamed of smashing the television screen.

People looked around me and through me. However much I tried to beg and plead, shout and scream, I couldn’t get them to notice me. I had woken up as a ghost.




Angels Beckon

Soon after I started to become aware, God came into my life.

One night I suddenly “awoke” from sleep. It felt as if I were floating far above my bed. Instinctively, I knew that I was not breathing. I could see angels with me, a male and two females. They were comforting and guiding me, and although we did not speak, I could hear their voices. They wanted me to come with them.

For a moment, I wanted to go with them. I had nothing to live for, no reason to continue my journey. But I couldn’t leave behind the family that loved me.

The next moment, breath filled my lungs.

As I became fully aware, the only certainty I could cling to when so much didn’t make sense was that God was with me. Without understanding the rules and structure of the church, without a concept of sin, the Bible, or repentance, I simply believed in him. I can’t explain it, other than that, on the fringes of human experience, perhaps I was in a place in which I didn’t need theological teaching to understand faith. The people around me didn’t know I existed, but God did. And I knew he existed. It was instinctual, not intellectual.

I started praying to God. I couldn’t clasp my hands or kneel, of course. But as I lay on a beanbag or sat strapped in a wheelchair to keep my useless torso upright, I started to talk to him. I prayed for someone to come and move my aching body. I prayed for him to keep my family safe. I prayed for some sign that one day I would be rescued from my silent world.

Sometimes my prayers were answered. Sometimes they weren’t. But when I felt disappointed and powerless, my conversations with God taught me that gratitude could sustain me. When the smallest prayer was answered, I gave thanks to the Lord. Caught in perhaps the most extreme isolation a person can experience, I grew ever closer to God.

I lived for nine years without anyone realizing there was intelligence trapped inside me. During this time my family occasionally took me to church, but formal worship meant little to me. Visiting my grandparents, I would watch as they said grace but felt no connection to the words.

One day, my father pushed my wheelchair into a shop where a woman, seeing my broken body and staring eyes, prayed for me as she touched my head. But all I felt was confusion that a stranger would do this. My faith was so tightly locked inside me that seeing people practice theirs together or in public seemed strange.

Then, in 2001, my most central prayer was answered.




Finding Love, and Church

A massage therapist at the care center I attended became convinced that I could understand what she was saying to me. After she persuaded my parents to have me assessed, I was taken to a specialized communication center. I sat on one side of a transparent screen, praying once again for God’s guidance and grace. An expert sitting on the other side asked me to identify pictures of everyday objects with my eyes. Seeing that I looked at the correct pictures on command, she told my parents that I could learn to communicate.

The intelligence that had been trapped inside me soon became apparent. I quickly learned to use flashcards and switches to communicate. Then I mastered advanced computer software. Within 18 months, I was able to speak using my “computer voice.” I started to lecture about alternative communication and to volunteer. In the years since, I’ve graduated with an honors degree and set up my own business as a web developer, all the while communicating via computer.

During this time, my faith remained an integral part of my life, but I still didn’t feel connected to the church. On New Year’s Day 2008, I met someone who did. My parents and I had Skyped with my sister, who was living in the UK. Her friend Joanna was in the room. She captivated me. We started to exchange emails and chat online, Joanna talking and me typing. We quickly fell in love.

Joanna had been brought up as a Christian and understood much about the church. As we talked and discussed faith, I began to understand more. Six months after we met online, I visited Joanna for the first time in the UK. One of our first activities together was to attend a church service. There, for the first time, I understood that


Two are better than one,

because they have a good return

for their labor:

If either of them falls down,

one can help the other up.

But pity anyone who falls

and has no one to help them up. (Ecc. 4:9–10)

That December, I moved to the UK, where Joanna and I did a Bible study class together. I began with a child’s Bible before moving on to an audio Bible that I could listen to alone. Six months later, Joanna and I were married. The Lord had brought us together, and now he was with us as we were joined in his presence.

Joanna and I continue to attend church. My life, like that of so many people, has become so full of work and commitments that it’s sometimes hard to find the time and space to connect to God. It’s the time and space that I had so much of during my enforced silence. Now I find peace in worship.

In many ways, my relationship with God looks the same as it always has: quiet, private, and intrinsic to my life. Without the Lord, I would not be here today. I have no doubt that it was only his intervention that saved me. It is only through God that I have found my voice.



Martin Pistorius has written about his experience in Ghost Boy (Thomas Nelson).

ValentineMary:
Fine tunning only depicts manipulation of RULES. Winner who made those rules? God or a deity higher than God

God makes rules and abide by them. We are not the only beings God created and so i find it coherent that God put man in a system he created for his survival.

onetrack:
By your own logic god must have a creator since something as perfect as he cannot just come into existence. He must have a creator.

One word, ETERNAL, you people need to stop fitting a much more manageable God in your created brains. I believe you will find this helpful: https://www.nairaland.com/2816262/god-created-everything-created-god

I always wanted to be self-made. Raised in Caledonia, Ontario, I was identified in third grade as gifted, and from then on was keenly aware that I should “act smart.” I only participated in things I knew I would do well, and did my best to control all factors that could sabotage perfection. If I got a 93 on an essay, I demanded that the teacher tell me how I lost 7 points. For group projects, I asked my classmate to bring only the presentation board—and brought a backup board just in case. By age 17, I saw myself as a teenager who had everything under control.

Heading to college in London, Ontario, I was eager to be a grown-up. And the ultimate marker of my new independence, I thought, would be joining the Bahá’í faith. A local assembly met in Caledonia, and some of my closest friends were raised in Bahá’í homes, so I was already familiar with the faith. I remember leaving Bahá’í events buoyed by the leaders’ optimism about the future: no more war, poverty, or racism. One language, one currency, and equality of the sexes. It sounded perfect.

The Bahá’í faith grew out of Islamic culture in 19th-century Persia. A merchant, Sayyid Ali Muhammad, claimed to be the long-awaited Báb (“Gate”) to the knowledge of the twelfth Imam. Just before the Báb was executed, he appointed one of his followers as his successor. The new leader’s half-brother would declare himself Bahá’u’lláh (literally “the glory of God”).

According to the tenets of the Bahá’í faith, all major religions before 1863 were founded by “Manifestations of God.” So Adam, Noah, Krishna, Moses, Abraham, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, and the Báb are all manifestations, with Bahá’u’lláh being the final and complete manifestation. The most appealing belief to me: a new order led by Bahá’í leaders that would usher in world peace.

Since I had managed to be so good at everything else, belonging to the religion that ensured perfect order seemed the right step. But I quickly found myself falling short of its requirements. I struggled to pray the long, obligatory morning prayer. I skipped ceremonial washings because I didn’t understand how to perform them.

It didn’t help that I had started dating a non-Bahá’í a few months after joining.



About a Boy

Aaron was a friend who identified as a “hostile agnostic.” I quickly learned that spending time with him was way more fun than prayer and chastity. I tried to manage my dual commitment to God and to someone who found the Bahá’í faith strange. But the more serious our relationship became, the greater the gap grew between what I should have been doing (praying, reading scripture, fasting) and what I was in fact doing (showing up to class late wearing Aaron’s shirts). So I became indifferent to spiritual matters, abandoning the pursuit of “holiness” to do whatever seemed right.

After graduation and two years of living with Aaron, I was still living without an anchor. I decided to take greater control of my life by becoming debt-free. With delusions of paying off loans quickly, I started working on the tech side of the Internet porn industry, populating websites with ads for porn sites. The company behind the scheme promised absurd amounts of wealth—with only one hour of work a day!

I plugged away at the job for about four months, only slightly bothered by its moral aspects. Since the pictures already existed, I reasoned, if someone was going to profit, it might as well be me. As it turned out, I never made a single penny. The venture was a way for the company to add a revenue stream, enticing people who would never buy porn files with the promise of cash.

Around the time I abandoned the stint, a former classmate invited Aaron and me, now engaged, to attend Alpha, a course exploring the basic teachings of Christianity. Our friend had just become a Christian, and even though we thought that was strange, we didn’t want to hurt his feelings.

After our leaders welcomed us to “the ten-week Alpha course,” I made a face at Aaron. Ten weeks?! But we kept going. We learned that no human can enter God’s presence by working hard enough or being morally good enough—but that in God’s mercy, Jesus gave up his life on the cross so that we may be saved from the wrath we all deserve.

After the Alpha course, our friend continued to evangelize us. But Aaron still didn’t think much of Christianity. Several months later, he decided that if he was going to make fun of Christians properly, he should read the Bible. I had read the Bible and participated in youth group as a teenager, but seeing Aaron come home with one, I thought it would be good for me to read it again.

And that’s when weird stuff started to happen to us.




Facing Terror

Over several weeks, I received a preponderance of “unknown number” hang-up calls. Aaron and I would wake up in the middle of the night, scared to leave the room. Aaron started waking up with scratches on his body. At times, we both felt like there was someone else in the house.

One night I woke up to see Aaron half-risen from bed, like someone was pulling him up by his left shoulder. “Go away,” I whispered. I shut my eyes and tucked deep into the covers, wishing that the terror would stop.

Later Aaron would tell me he didn’t turn to me. But I saw him turn over and look at me. Only it wasn’t his face. I screamed and pressed my face to the bed. I was going crazy; no, I was already crazy. I was going to die here in this room from fright, or end up in a psychiatric hospital.

But in that moment, despite the terror, I understood that Jesus was my hope.

So there in the bed that I shared with Aaron, I pleaded with God to save me. I already knew that I had to repent: of trying to be holy through a faith that promised perfection; of helping to sell online pornography; and ultimately, of relying on myself.

As I prayed in repentance, the fog I cowered under lifted. There was a sudden clarity: Yes, this is true, this is real—Jesus really is the Son of God.

Then I waited to see what Aaron would do. Would he turn to Christ as well? Would he go back to sleep as though nothing had happened? I worried that I might have to say goodbye to my fiancé, that we might be on different paths from here on. Though it was only moments, it felt like eternity—and then Aaron asked Jesus to save him, too. And we were free.




Continuing to Surrender

And we lived happily ever after? Not really. Thanks be to God, the demonic oppression ceased. But converting to Christianity proved inconvenient and downright offensive to some friends and family. Some people assumed our change meant we thought we were “better” people. We also had to figure out how to own a house together and not have sex again until marriage. God gave us a gracious pastor who led us through that quagmire.

Since getting married, Aaron and I have seen the traditional wedding vows play out in real-time. We’ve faced seasons in which we had to humbly rely on the financial generosity of others. We’ve welcomed three beautiful children, but also lost a baby to a miscarriage during which I almost died. I developed epilepsy in 2012, which has meant I often cannot rely on my own body and brain.

Even so, there’s so much in the Christian life that gives me joy. When our 5-year-old sees a piece of garbage in the street and declares, “I bet that person isn’t going to heaven” (true story), I remind her that access to heaven has nothing to do with being good and everything to do with God’s goodness. I know that when I pray, God hears me, because he responded to my prayer the night he saved me and has continued to provide for us through the years. I can see how much he loves me when I reflect on the experiences he has led me through, slowly, sometimes painfully shaping me into his image.

And I no longer have to strive for perfection, because Christ is my perfection. Even though I don’t always like it, his grace is sufficient, and I would be foolish to disagree.



Emily Armstrong is a mom of three and freelance illustrator in London, Ontario.

sukkot:
Good to hear from you too Chief. i trust all is well with you. yeah NL getting a lil boring lately lol

yes boss. all is well, thanks.

sukkot:
just got released from a 2 week ban. hope I did not miss much

I've not been here for quite a while myself. I just say make i spend some of my leisure time here again. Good to hear from you.

Let me restate this analogy, earlier stated by my bro KingEbukasBlog sometime ago (https://www.nairaland.com/2980239/atheists-test)

Man emulates nature but fails to admit nature was indeed designed .

1. RoboScorpion vs Scorpion

2. Robodog vs Dog

3. Artificial neuron vs human neuron

4. Man's arm vs Robot's arm

The former is described as intelligently designed but not the latter Do you see why atheism is irrational and the atheists need to understand the Logic of God and EVERYTHING ?

Imagine you are walking through a field and find a watch lying on the ground. What would your first thought be? Would you think that random factors over time just happened to form a spring with no purpose that inadvertently came across a cog that was formed with no purpose and then were joined accidentally to a number of other gears, springs, and cogs, eventually forming a fully functioning and accurate instrument that could measure time? Of course not. You would assume someone had made it. This is because of its obvious design features. The precision and
intentionality of the mechanism are clear signs of purpose, of a plan. There must have been an intelligent being who conceived of the watch and its workings and then created the watch.

This analogy, which is often used to illustrate the argument from design, tries to show that when we observe nature, whether on a tiny level (like cells or proteins) or on a grand scale (like whole organisms or even the universe), we can see precision and intentionality. And from that
observation we can infer that there must be an intelligence behind it all with a purpose and a plan. Just as fingerprints are the product of fingers touching something, intentionality and purpose are products of a mind acting, not chance.

When we use design to argue for the existence of God we are making a teleological argument. “Telos” is a Greek world meaning purpose or ultimate end. Thus, teleology is the study of a thing’s purpose or design. The design argument has been made far back as Plato and Aristotle
and is one of Thomas Aquinas five ways of proving the existence of God. But in 1802 William Paley made what is probably the most famous version of the argument, which included the watchmaker illustration.

In recent years, the teleological argument has become known as “Intelligent Design” or “ID.” People like Michael Behe, Philip Johnson, William Dembski, and Hugh Ross have used use the latest scientific discoveries and advances to cast the design argument in the most contemporary terms. There are a variety of ways the design argument has been used to argue for the existence of God. We’ll look at three examples of these arguments: the fine tuning of the universe, the nature of information, and irreducible complexity.



FINE TUNING

Scientists have come to understand the universe as having a great deal of precision. In fact, the degree of precision is so great that to alter many of the parameters even minutely would destroy life as we know it. This precision leads some scientists to make an argument based on order that the universe was actually designed to accommodate life. Also called “fine tuning,” the anthropic principle uses two classes of parameters to make a design argument: one set for the features of the universe, the other for the features of our sun-planet-moon system.
In his book The Creator and the Cosmos, Hugh Ross lists parameters that must fall within a very narrow range in order to make life possible. The list includes things like the average distance between stars, the strong and weak nuclear force constants, and the velocity of light.

What would happen if any one parameter fell outside its narrow, life-friendly range? Take the expansion rate of the universe as an example. If the expansion rate was faster than one part in 1055, galaxies could not have formed; if the expansion rate was slower than one part in 1055,
the universe would collapse before galaxies had a chance to form. Without galaxies stars could not form, without stars planets could not form, and without planets there could be no life. The extraordinary balance and precision exhibited by each of the above parameters demonstrates an
order that chance and randomness cannot account for. This order points to an orderer, a designer of the universe..

The second set of parameters have to do with our sun-planet-moon system. These parameters include things like:
• If the gravity on the surface of the Earth was stronger, the atmosphere would retain too much ammonia and methane, which are poisonous. But if the gravity was less, the atmosphere would lose too much water.
• If the length of a day was greater, the temperature differences would be too great to sustain life. But if the day was shorter the atmospheric wind velocities too great to survive.

Again, each of the parameters in Ross’ list cannot vary by more than an extremely small amount without damaging the Earth’s ability to support life.
But is this nothing more than an egocentric view of the universe? Just because humans happen to require the universe to have these parameters in order to live does not mean it was made with us in mind, does it? Not necessarily. But think about the watch we found in the woods. The design and precision was not for its own sake; there was a purpose to it: to keep the time. The universe is far more complicated than a watch and displays far more design and precision. It’s hard to see why such design and precision should be seen as purposeless and life as accidental.
Given the uniqueness of Earth it seems far more plausible to see life in general and human life in particular as the purpose of this design and precision.
But what if there is life elsewhere in the universe? First, we have no evidence whatsoever of life of any kind anywhere else in the universe. In fact, rather than being an average planet, astronomers are beginning recognize just how rare the earth is. Second, if there was life elsewhere it would bolster, not detract from the view that the purpose of the design and precision of the universe is to sustain life. And third, that even if we did find life elsewhere in the universe, it wouldn’t change anything about the nature of human beings or the truthfulness of Christianity – we’d still be sinners in need of salvation.




DNA

In addition to design in the precision of the universe, the existence and nature of information in the universe can be used to show the existence of God. To understand this form of the argument we must first understand the different kinds of order. Specified Order is simply a string of repeating information, CAT CAT CAT, for example. This is a naturally occurring kind of order and can be found in things like crystals, nylon, or snowflakes.Unspecified Complexities are non-repetitive and random. They are also naturally occurring. Things like the sound of howling wind and the shape of a rock are good examples.

Specified Complexities are non-repetitive and non-random. They are not naturally occurring; they are the product of design. In contrast to the howling wind and the shape of a rock, examples of specified complexities would be music or a statue. Even the sentence you are hearing right now is an example of specifically complex order. The way we recognize a specified complexity by its contingency. According to William Dembski, one of the most prominent figures in the ID movement, “Contingency is the chief characteristic of information.” A rock’s shape is determined by the laws of nature that are brought to bear on it by its circumstances. There are no other possibilities for its shape given its nature and circumstance.
However a statue’s shape is contingent on the purpose of an intelligent being – a sculptor. The sculpture could take any number of forms and therefore is not determined, but contingent on the purpose of its designer.

If you were asked, “Is there any information on this screen?” what would your answer be? If you answered “no” then you are correct; there is no information on this or any other computer screen in the world. The only things on this screen are different colored specifically ordered pixels. In fact, you could have exhaustive knowledge about computers and the technology behind screen displays but still not know what was said on the screen. If there was information on the screen, then we would never have to learn to read; the information would just fly off the screen and impose itself onto our minds whenever we looked at it.

So what is information? It is communication between minds. But in order for minds to communicate, there must be a common language. The language must exist and be understood prior to any ability to communicate. For example, music may exist in a composer’s head but it cannot be communicated without the convention of music notation. The language of written music (like staffs, notes, and values) must exist prior to attempting to write or play the music in the composer’s mind. Every language is a set of tokens and a set of conventions for the use of the tokens. A token stands in for something intangible. For example, the number “1” is not really an actual number “1” but a token or symbol representing the number “1” which is a nonphysical entity.
There are no actual letters on this screen, just tokens representing the letters. Because letters and numbers are non-physical entities, they have no location or appearance. That is why we need tokens to represent them. Each token has a convention or way in which to use the token.
When those conventions are used properly we get words and sentences. The point is this: the rules of language were established before we could use it to communicate even on the most primitive level.

Imagine if you were to go to the Grand Canyon and you saw “STEVE WAS HERE” etched in the canyon wall and you knew it was made naturally with wind and water through erosion; you would also know it contained no information. In fact, it would not even be English, just squiggles cut into rock that resemble the tokens and conventions used in English. But this resemblance would be entirely unintentional and therefore communicate nothing.

What about an unlimited number of monkeys with typewriters? Given an unlimited amount of time, could these monkeys ever write Hamlet? The answer is no. Even if at some point they happened upon the exact same sequence of letters as Hamlet, it still would not be Hamlet. It would be a string of letters that resembled Hamlet, but it would be void of any information. This is because there was no intention to communicate behind the monkey’s actions; there was no true use of language, only its tokens. The tokens would be empty.

A great example of how scientists make use of this understanding of information theory is seen in the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) project. SETI listens to radio waves and searches for a specifically complex string of information. The idea is that specifically complex signals can only come from an intelligent agent wishing to communicate.
Recently, our understanding of DNA has given us a new avenue for the argument from design based on information. That DNA contains information is not in dispute. But, as we have seen, information is not intrinsic to naturally occurring physical objects.

Just as a sound is an agent that carries the tokens and conventions used in speech for communication, DNA is simply an agent housing a set of tokens used to convey and store information that is necessary for the body to develop and function. But before DNA could be useful, a language had to be established. The genetic code had to exist prior to the existence of DNA and come from outside the DNA. Information did not emerge from DNA itself any more than a bowl of alphabet soup can say “I LOVE YOU.” The best explanation for the information found in DNA is that it was imposed on the DNA by a mind.



IRREDUCIBLE COMPLEXITY

A third example of the design argument is based on the complexity we see in living organisms. It says that some things are as simple as they could possibly be and still function. This is called irreducible complexity. These things could not have evolved through undirected forces or chance because the individual parts have no function apart from the whole and the whole has no function in a more primitive state. To illustrate the argument biochemist Michael Behe, pioneer of the argument, uses the example of a mousetrap. Which part of a mousetrap can be removed and still leave you with a functioning mousetrap? The answer is: nothing. It did not start out as a piece of wood that caught a couple mice and then evolved to include a spring, which caught a few more mice, which then adapted to include a hammer, which caught even more mice etc.

The mousetrap is made of individual components, which, apart from the whole of the mousetrap, are useless. And if any individual component is subtracted from the whole then the mechanism is rendered useless. The mousetrap could not have possibly evolved. It was first conceived of and then created by an intelligent agent with the power and will to act.

The implications of this are huge. If there are examples of irreducible complexity in biology then atheistic macroevolution, the idea that evolution explains life’s origins and that species evolve from one kind to another through random mutation and chance, must be false. Behe’s book, Darwin’s Black Box, looks at some of the most basic biological mechanisms that we know of, such as the bacterial flagellum and blood clotting, and argues that these biological machines are irreducibly complex.

One biological machine often used to illustrate irreducible complexity is the human eye. The eye is made of over forty different components, each of which contains a number of sub-components. If any one component fails, then vision is impaired. Again the economy of parts and the precision necessary for vision betrays a designer.
A common objection to the use of the eye as an example of irreducible complexity is that there are a number of different kinds of eyes found in nature and they exhibit a wide variety of complexity. This observation is used to make a case for evolution. But what we see in nature is not a series of steps in an evolutionary chain. Rather, we see a variety of irreducibly complex biological machines that have the same basic function.

Just for the sake of argument, let’s say the eye did evolve as a result of random processes. What does that give us? An interface with no receiver—like a keyboard that is not attached to a computer. After all, just as there is no actual input without the keyboard being attached to
the computer, sight is not sight without a brain to receive it. The eye must connect to the brain somehow. But how does the eye know where the brain is or what a brain is or that it even exists or that it is required to make the eye useful? And how did the eye then wire itself properly to the brain? Why didn’t it connect itself to the nose or a knee? And even if it did connect to the brain properly how did the eye know how to speak a language that the brain would understand?
Again we need a language created prior to and apart from the existence of the things that will speak the language. And again, an intelligent designer is the best explanation.

It is important to remember, however, that the truthfulness of Christianity ultimately does not stand or fall based on the truth of macroevolution. Even if macroevolution was irrefutably proven to be true tomorrow it would not and could not rule out the possibility of God using it as the agent through which He accomplishes His design. An intelligent agent would still be required to initiate and direct the process. Nothing about human nature would be any different. We would still be sinners in need of a savior regardless of the process God used to create us.

Ultimately, the design argument does not show that Christianity is true and all other religions are false. However, it does reveal a picture of a personal, powerful God that is consistent with the Bible. Used as one part of a larger case it is a very powerful and important argument for the truthfulness of Christianity.




Source; Apologeticbible.com


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Drefan2:
Lol. Nope. You don't understand. It's not as if I'm bent on questioning the validity of the words in the bible. It's just that sometimes when I'm really calm and quiet, I drift away into another world, deeply absorbed in a moment of reflection. And then the questions come. My curiosity heightens. With the mystery already surrounding the world. The bible is confusing at times to read and understand fully. I can't help it.

I just want to be sure that my convictions are right.

I have asked others this same question several times but no-one it seems has been able to do justice unto it. There are even other questions piled up at the back of my mind seeking answers.

You will find this site helpful. http://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets You can thank me later.

KingEbukasBlog:
Underachievers hiding under the cloak of atheism to feel good about themselves and their deficient intellect . They have been bested in life and they come here to claim mental superiority .


Delusion bro

The guy is a complete example of the hurt and hate engulfing atheists. The only difference between him and others is that he is severely uncivilised.

Pr0ton:
Stop fvcking with my mentions.. You've proven to be unfortunate in thinking well, why should I put up a talk with you? Risk myself the headache? No, I'm done with that, long a time.

Just one question: "How do you live better than christians", and you resort to anger. Do not let hate and hurt eat you away completely.

frosbel2:
There is this story of a woman who was covered with tattoos in Cross River state and she saved the lives of many children who had been abused and abandoned because of witchcraft accusations and superstition. Their own parents and communities had abandoned them.

Surprisingly many so called Christians who did not even have one tattoo did nothing to help these children in the majority of cases ( perhaps there were a few ).

Who do you think will get saved on the last day ?? and who do you think will draw others to Christ by their kind behaviour and attitude ?? The white woman with hundreds of tattoos or the religious hypocrites who are all talk and no action.

see for yourself.

[img]http://3.bp..com/-Uep-fEe5LmI/VrDjs5QkxjI/AAAAAAAAIB4/uDu7ruNFZSA/s640/danish-woman-rescues-baby-e.jpg[/img]
]

@ bolded, you dont got to exaggerate stories to pass your point, she probably assisted families suffering from hunger and poverty. Christianity have been in the buisness of that since time immemorial. Im yet to see atheists fill hospitals nd prisons to give hope to the dying and convicted. home to the motherless, education assistance e.t.c.

can you get the tattoos off?

[quote author=KingEbukasBlog post=46102801][/quote]Some people join atheism so they can call themselves thinkers or at least identify with thinkers. I'm yet to see a single, logical, open-minded atheist on this forum. Some are even worse than others, such is pr0ton.

Pr0ton:
I answered you earlier and left you to do the remaining thinking. Is this how much sucking cockx has affected your thinking ability? If your expecting me to do the thinking for you, you'll fvcking rot on waiting.

All you did and are still doing is cursing and calling names. Well, its normal since you got no answer. Go and keep thinking ehn, if this is what thinking is all about, if great thinkers thought like you, the world would have ended long before you were born.

.

God bless you.

KingEbukasBlog:
. I am patiently waiting for an answer

Good to hear from you bro, i replied your mail. Ive been really busy with stuff.

KingEbukasBlog:
The superiority of the mind is portrayed by the show of desperation by shamelessly asking for money from theists ? Ah .. you would have told us since na . Why now ?

Might be an example of the better living that he meant
Scam.

Well scammers are richer then non-scammers, thats is also better living if you ask pr0ton

Pr0ton:
Shit! Fvck this fvcktard.. Just get the fvck off.. It's why I don't like arguing with theists.. miserable motherfvcaz

Chai!!! This is pure hurt!!!
Well, I accept the names ehn. But still, how do you live better than christians?

Its the one thing you hold so dear and cant answer.

johnydon22:
Bail who out? Pr0ton?? **dies** Well anybody can believe what makes them feel good.

But you guys can get your own thread and have your unrelated arguments there or better still wait till i have had enough here.

Don't try steer my thread off course....

So you don't even believe Jesus can talk to me on phone chai the irony!!!

Lwkmd

johnydon22:
Come bros don't derail my thread from the message Jesus gave me to pass because bros J go vex give you if these guys no send me their money keep..

Chai, see strategic bailing out ,

I don miss nairaland

johnydon22:
Ewoooo Jesus message of end time don turn message of bad luck... Bros na you talk that one, my hand no deh am.. OYO is your case.

Bros Jesus sheeey you deh see them? i gave them the message they called your message supported by your bible badluck..

Oya naaa..

I'm still giving you a chance to save yourself oo send me all your money so you can make it when Jesus arrives.. aaaah aaaah.

what is wrong with you sceptics sef

No be only sceptics, you go soon see septic tank. Seems you dont need the money.

Pr0ton:
Bros dey form reputation ooleri

That's the problem with theists. They just won't think.

Once again, I agree we dont think atall. Just tell us how you live better than us na.

johnydon22:
the bible said in the end people will not believe you when you bring them this message.

Dis one na message of badluck.