₦airaland Forum

preciousee17:
Remember I don't even take you seriously in this argument, so right now I'm just responding to the three questions because I can, and not because I want you to take Christianity Seriously

Now
1. Faith is believe in God.
Do you believe rain will fall tomorrow?
(Yes because God can make rain to fall). That's what faith should be.
(Erm, I'm not sure, it depends). There's no faith there.
(Yes because it's rainy season). There's no faith here.

My question in return: Do you understand this?

I don't believe that rain falls, I know it. Believe only comes in when there's no evidence.
I don't have to believe that if put my television on, provided the television is okay and there is electricity that it will work, I know it. I will do it 1000 times and it will work 1000 times.
Faith does not work that way, faith deals with uncertainties, knowledge doesn't.
So you should be able to differentiate knowledge from belief, they are to different things.

2. You mean a physical method? Sike! Faith is not physical.
Do you believe rain is going to fall tomorrow?
(Yes because God can cause rain to fall).
Take that believe, put it on a scale of 1-10.
I think that's the measurement you'll need

I know faith belief, I don't work with beliefs because it's prone with evidence that there are errors in it.

3. On a scale of 1-10, how strong was your faith? Was it up to 1? Congratulations, you have qualified!
Now is it God's will?
Perhaps yes.
Then the miracle occurs

I don't do faith, I'm agnostic. It's either I know or I don't and it's only evidence that brings knowledge.
I cant say how much of faith I had but I'm sure that I doubted a lot of things as a Christian, they weren't adding up because there was no evidence for them. Surprisingly, I started seeing a lot of evidence against them after

preciousee17:
What you are saying now is not what I said. Please quote me by my words so we can have a healthy argument

in reality, do you think that 2 kangaroos, Emu birds, cassowaries and Kiwi can hop accross Indian Ocean or a arctic to join Noah's ark 4,000 Years ago in the middle east and back to Australia and new Zealand without a trace of that happening?

preciousee17:
Yes. Expatiate further please.

So tell me how I can confirm that a virgin was able to conceive without fertilization in "reality".

Reality is the keyword

preciousee17:
Oh, how did weapons of war get invented?
War tactics? Instruments of music? Haven't you heard in the news that the remains of Noah's Ark was discovered? (That kind of news won't be publicized and that was the first ship in the world). What of clothes? Bells etc. All those things from the time of the Bible, isn't it only passing through redesign now?

There's no single verifiable evidence in science that the Noah's ark ever existed, if you have one, you can show us and let's analyze it.
And if you believe a news of wooden remnant of an ark surviving for more than 4000 years then we may have to take you on basic science class on decomposition by saprophytes.

preciousee17:
Till you confront the things you have been asked, I'm not sure I can take your argument seriously anymore. Already you've said the same thing over and over again and I'd love to hear something new.

In this case, we Christians can see
You Atheists can't see.
How do we prove to you that the moon exists?

Don't dodge this

The blind man and the moon analogy is a faulty equivalent fallacy and a strawman at the same time.

It's a faulty equivalence because the blind man is convinced that he's blind while I'm not convinced that I'm blind with respect to spirituality. The blind man knows that some people can actually see the physical but he's incapable of doing it, in my case I don't think the spiritaul relam eixst.

You don't have to convince the blind man that the physical relam exist before telling him about the moon, he is convinced, even if he cannot see it, he feels it and hears it. You have to convince me first the spiritual realm exist, because I have not seen any evidence that it does.

So the analogy is fallacious and so illogical

preciousee17:
You actually searched Google for the answer to this question... Wow, so desperate

How did I know it's strawman if I don't know it already. I just want to show you to stop arguing in that manner.
It's illogical

preciousee17:
This very statement should prompt all Christians that care to respond, to avoid using much strength on this man.

What you mean here is that if I heal you of your lungs disease (personal encounter), it's still not reliable and you won't believe in God because of that? You've said many vain words, but I don't know how many Atheists agree with this one...

If you heal me of lung infection, how do we know that it's your healing that cured me or that it's not just my immune system that fought it or something I eat or took or just placebo effect?

The only way to find out is if we tell you heal several people with lung infections at a controlled environment so we can measure the potency of your healing prowess.
We will make a category of some people the control ( you won't pray for these people), then we can now compare the success rate of those you prayed for as against the control to be able to know for sure that it's your prayer that worked.

preciousee17:
You said:
1. The Bible is not evidence, it's only claims...
The sooner you understand what the Bible is, the better for us both. The word 'Bible' means 'Book of Books'. It is a compilation of biographies, history documentaries and letters written to different people and for different reasons across a span of hundreds of years. These letters, documentaries and biographies were only compiled recently because it's hard handling them apart. When we say evidence is in the Bible, we are telling you to look at the documented handwork of God that shows in the history that is recorded in that book that is in the Bible. When you call documented history 'claims' then I wonder how you manage to believe documented history from scientists...

I understand what the bible. The Bible is another religious book followed by a sect thsy believes that its divine and its the truth and no other book is higher. Every religion think the same about their book
There's no evidence in the Bible, the Bible is the claim that Christians are selling. Just like every other religion.

2. Miracles are also claims (wow I literally laughed)
So tell me, did we say God is a fairy, waiting to heal all? Or we said He's a Father with emotions and a plan. If He doesn't plan to heal you, shall we then force Him? Try if you can. Then on another level, there has been millions of live miracles where atheists and unbelievers were healed, but you don't accept that as evidence, only claims... You wish to use the power of God to conduct an experiment. Go ahead and good luck

miracle are also claim and most times they are bogus. No one has ever presented a duly tested miracle.

3. No evidence that God is in 'us'
Sorry I didn't say that God is in us (as in me and you)
I meant that God is in us (Christians)
Yes, nothing for you here unless you can be in our body and soul for a few minutes.

again, this is what you been taught in your religion, other religions think otherwise and it doesn't mean that yours is the truth. Evidence is needed to prove it.

4. (Open question for any atheist, don't y'all believe in Big Bang? If not, please how do you think Earth was created?)
5. ... You lost me here. I told him to either believe in healing as the power of God, or as a coincidence. I'm not forcing the young man to believe in God, he has options

I am not an atheist and I don't understand what big bang got to do with the existence of a god.
For the records, I don't know if a god exist or not, when I mean a god, I mean a creator but I am sure that this God does not have the attributes that Christians are selling even if he exists. We have confirmed so many times that the claims of Christians about the attributes of god is false and mostly vague.
Albiet, I still think we have many things to learn frkm Christians doctrines with respect to kindness and I like the life of Christ but it doesn't mean that the literal stories in the Bible are true. It will make sense if you see them as allegories.

preciousee17:
Please go back and read the first page of the thread.
In summary, the fact that people can tell you the future before it happens (prophets, voodoo priests, mediums etc.) is a sure proof

Have you heard of Astral Projection? It's not a Christian stuff but look it up

Prophets, voodoo, mediums are claims and not evidence.

Can you agree with me that must Christians don't know what evidence is?

You people don't know what evidence is

MXrep:
Yes, we know it's too much but don't say that Enugu can't contain such length of road. Also, don't compare straight road with numerous inneer roads and streets interconnecting a state. If all numerous roads in Enugu Urban area to join together and straightened, you will be surprised where it will reach. Not to talk of numerous untarred roads in the villages

Enugu cancontained 10, 0000km of paved raods but it means that you have to tar and create numerous paved roads in Enugu state. It's not realistic

MXrep:
Square kilometers is different from kilometers. You are mixing things up

go back and read my comment again. Don't be a haste to reply

preciousee17:
I'm not sure that's the definition of 'Evidence' but let's flow with it
'Under a controlled environment'. Nice line here
So let's take the cancer example. According to us Christians, our controlled environment means: the person performing the healing must have faith, the person to be healed must have faith, everything must be according to the will of God. Faith simply means (believe in God)

The problem with most Christians is that they think that they know everything and can explain everything with the Bible. What we mean by control environment are environmental parameters that can be manipulated to test a phenomenon. For example, if I say that water melts at 0 degree celcius provided pressure is maintained, the environmental condition are the pressure and temperate.

Let's don't go scientific, so you can actually get it, if I tell you that humans ca walk, this is not true in every environmental condition. Humans can only walk at a certain environmental condition like availability of a walking platform, favorable gravity and pressure. So thr test the hypothesis "humans can walk" you have to control the environment to meet those standards to prove it.

If you want to test a pastor healing cancer, on what conditions that are "measurable" should we test it (measurable is a key word).

But then you create a large crowd of people that don't have faith, bring in patients that don't have faith and moreover, you don't even know what is that will of God in that situation.

Again, you Christians think that you know a lot.
Faith is not a measurable factor, it's not even an environmental factor one can deliberately control. You need to bring yourself down and learn.
If you specify a measurable condition to test it, then we can measure the potency of miracles else it becomes a factor of probabilities and most times it's not statistically significant.

In a church for instance, it may be the will of God for a certain person to be healed, so God arranges and the person comes to church, the pastor just prays for healing without specifying, and the cancer patient just believes in God and get healed. Now you want to whisk that pastor out of a 'controlled environment' and force him to perform an experiment with God?
Sorry the ways of God is not the ways of man

Again, the reason science dont take all these seriously is because you are yet to provide real entities to measure. You can't keo making abstract things up and expect us to take it seriously.
If you say faith determines the level of potency of the miracle, then the question will be:

1. How can we measure faith?
2. What method are we going to accurately measure faith?
3. Then how can we now test the measured level of faith with the potency of miracles.

Without giving us detailed methods to do these, I don't think we can Take you seriously

preciousee17:
Please 'dissect' the Bible.

is the Bible consistent with reality?

preciousee17:
Now I respect you for your age sir.
Again I agree many Christians don't know the Bible (I've said something similar earlier on)
And yes they accept interpretations of pastors only. (Again I've called those ones hypocrites earlier on.)
But just the same way you have been a Christian (or maybe a church-goer according to a certain man's definition) for 27, I have also been a Church-goer for about 15 years before I finally realized that Christianity is personal, a true pastor can only guide you. And yes, in my small years of being a true Christian, I have seen more than enough authenticity in God's Word.
So let's dissect this Bible one thing at a time, shall we?
To read is one thing, to understand is another

So you think you understand the bible better than those who actually read it and say it's not consistent with reality?

Is the bible consistent with the reality of life in your opinion?

melodyogonna:
Basically a landmass is a huge chunk of space. Think of a rectangle or square, the landmass is the area of the rectangle. Inside the rectangle you can have a large number of lines, see attached graphics

Nigeria as a whole only has about 60, 000 km of paved roads.

10,000km is an overbloated figure for Enugu state

FalseProphet1:
1. *Boy-friend* This is that spirit that will keep scaring away serious and well meaning suitors because they'll be thinking that the boyfriend that always hangs around you actually wanted to marry you. To cast out this spirit, you don't need to pray about it. Just quit the relationship.

2 *Engagement ring* This is that spirit that makes you keep raising your finger to show the world that one young man that is still serving the master engaged you and when the serious suitors see the ring, they'll pass over you because something in them tells them you
have been engaged. To cast out this spirit, you don't need prayers, just remove that key holder in your finger.

3. *Hard to get* This is that spirit that tells you not to accept a marriage proposal in a hurry so that the brother will not think you were too cheap or desperate. It tells you to tell him to give you six months to pray, don't always pick his calls, behave as if you are not interested even though you are dying on the inside and truly love the brother. This spirit is truly from your village people, the day it will release you is that day the brother would have agreed to marry another and you'll be the one to start him and his number will say.... Thank
you for using MTN. To cast out this spirit, just be real. If you love the brother and you perceive he is God's will for you, just accept the proposal and move on with your marriage!

4. *Proud spirit* That spirit that tells you to always run home after service so that no brother will talk to you, maybe he'll meet you in the dream. Before the brother would prepare what to say, you have gone home. That spirit that tells you that every brother that greets you has an evil intention, so
don't answer them. That spirit that doesn't
allow you to greet brothers except those that
ride cheap and exotic cars. That spirit that
tells you to be walking fast every time as if
something is pursuing you from the back. Well, I don't know how you can cast out this
spirit o, but I think humility and being moderate might help.

5. *Denominational/tribal spirit* I am a Catholic and must marry a Catholic. Your villagers are really at work. I'm a Deeper Lifer and must marry one whose life is also Deep. I am a Chosen and must marry from Chosen because others were rejected. I am an Anglican and must marry an Anglican even if God is leading me to do otherwise. I am from Hausa tribe and must marry from my tribe. I'm from Imo state and must not marry from Abia. This spirit has kept many bound, they entered menopause and are about to retire to village. To cast out this spirit of delay, understand that every believer is from one tribe called Christ. If God is leading you to another denomination, kindly obey Him, but let it be God.

Finally…

6. *Dirtiness* That spirit that tells you not to dress well because you are going to heaven. It tells you to use tarpaulin to sew your dress, wear green skirt, yellow blouse and lemon head tie. When brothers see you, their nightmare will increase and they will go for personal deliverance. You are a lady but dresses like a man; you don't brush your tongue, when you talk the heaven closes and the earth trembles.

This spirit can only be cast out by understanding that cleanliness is next to godliness. Dress well, don't under dress and
don't over dress. Dress modestly, smell good
because it's not sin. Smell like a living being
and not a dead being. Jesus appreciated the
woman that broke the oil that smells good
and truly He enjoyed the fragrance. So which
Jesus did you actually accept that abhors
such?
God bless us all.

Copied.

spirit of always having financial issues and asking men for money

wegevv:
I don’t believe in any “all powerful pastor” my friend, I believe in an all powerful God. It’s cool that conclusive empirical evidence is your style but that’s not how the Christian faith works because it is individual.

Well, I do not have issues with your Christian faith as long as you don't make it a universal standard for everyone. There's beauty is diversity.

You won’t be able to disprove any persons individual experience to that person because they experienced it and you didn’t. Faith is individual. If someone was physically healed from a disease they were told was incurable there’s not much you or anyone can tell them to disprove their testimony. Showing them a video of a pastor who couldn’t do healings in a laboratory set up by atheists won’t change a thing to that person. Their faith is individual to them.

Christianity is one of the easiest religion to disprove, however it's difficult to disprove the existence of a god. I am even bothered about disproving one because it doesn't matter to me.
Again, it's good if faith is what you have chosen, just don't use it to dictate how others live their lives like most Christians do. If you do that then you might start facing resistance.

I doubt many Christian’s are trying to make their faith a universal truth. If so they would be in a lab doing experiments with pastors rather than sharing their individual experiences. They share their personal truth which can help others find this individual truth too. Ultimately Christian’s believe it’s God that saves. You can’t logic someone else into faith unfortunately which is why I’m not really trying to do that here. Just explaining how I believe it works

Christians are judgemental and very annoying. Most times they think their is the universal truth and they want you to live by the rules of their Bible. It's where I start having problems with them. They think that they know all and their Bible answers everything when it's obviously not true.
Thr reason why irreligious people usually do not pick on other religion is because other religions do not show off like Christians do.
Christians are braggarts and will easily want to condemn you using their religious rules.

But people of faith also have a right to influence law, culture and norms just like everyone else. We are all being “subjected to” each other to use your own phrase. Most people believe murder should be illegal. In a democracy it’s perfectly okay for someone to believe that because of their religion and someone else to believe the same for another reason.

I live in Lagos, I have not seen a Muslim trying to convert me, I can't count how many Christians who have done that. And the wa they go about it, they make you feel like you are living a miserable life without Jesus. That's annoying and it's why I don't fancy Christians.
They are too full of themselves and their religion. This is why they get attacked alot by irreligious people

ReacherSaidNoth:
I should have known, he is a special kind of deluded.

I swear, he's finished. I figured and stopped replying

ReacherSaidNoth:
If it isn't the new resident religious section dumbass.

he's not new. He's old here with a new moniker. Dtruthspeaker is his old moniker

vdestro:
You obviously have never gone to court else you would have seen that most tenancy matters are based mosrly on oral evidence for those who have no tenancy agreement. Same for some crimes like sexual assault, defamation etc

And oral evidence is always personal.

And most people can always tell when a person is lying. That is one of the powers that people have.

Further, the absence of any reasonable or valid question is proof of Truth. For Truth is the absence of any reasonable or valid question, hence why The Law says. "There is no valid argument against the Truth "

ok

vdestro:
lets say the Truth DNA does not say man is a distant cousin with a chimpazee. Even ordinary reason shows that man and chimp share similarities but it is very very wrong to stretch it beyond similarity.

For by that connection, then we can foresee that DNA would also connect man to the crocodile, which would lead to lizard, which would lead to the monitor lizard which would lead to the snake. Which should also mean that hitler should be a distant cousin.

This clearly shows that this is a nonesense connection

jeez, I didn't get this earlier. You are the dtruthspeaker.

Bye dude 😂

ebubeson:
Is it good for believers in Christ to consider DNA testing in marriage ? If they are born again, is it not wrong on the part of the husband to consider doing DNA his children to ascertain their paternity?

it's baffles me how many of you trust that DNA test will confrim your paternity but this same DNA test is wrong when it's confirms that you are a distant cousin of chimpanzees.
You guys just choose whatever suits your belief system.

vdestro:
If you had learned about evidence you would see that 2 types of evidence are given in court at least. 1. Oral evidence (testimony) and 2. Documentary evidence in support or real evidence eg stone, knife, wound etc or other types of evidence.

in court, oral evidence are backed with pratctible evidence, else how do you know who's lying?
This is the purpose of investigation and forensics.

Therefore when a person is testifying he is already giving evidence.

It is a different thing whether the receiver of the evidence will use it or not. That part is at the full pleasure/displeasure of the receiver to accept or reject.

However, it does not change the fact that evidence has been given.

You guys keep mixing up your refusal to accept evidence as lack of evidence, whereas, evidence is evidence whether you accept it or not.

there's nothing like oral evidence.
You cannot rely on what people say to make conclusions, People lie and many are deluded.

It's why in court and science, you have to provide a testable evidence. You think judges are idiots that will just take you by your words?

Your testimonies are your personal stories if no one can verify them and it stays there.
Christians say many things that cannot be investigated, no one knows if you are lying or not and yet you want us to believe it. It doesn't work that way

XerXers:
Are you sure you what a KM is?

10,000 is too much. The distance from. Nigeria to South Africa by road is 6,500km

vdestro:
See your you dont know self. What are the people called by Obi and Atiku giving in court as evidence?

Testimonies is court are quite different from those in church.
Testimonies is court comes with evidence. Obi cannot just say INEC rigged the election because his agent testifies to it, he has to come with evidence to convince the court that has testimonies are true.

To prove that someone is a murder, you don't just bring someone to talk against him, you have to come with overwhelming evidence that this person actually is a murder, it's why forensics exist. But Christians just say anything thing they like and then expect everyone to believe them

wegevv:
I think you’ve misunderstood the general point of my message lol

I’m not trying to give you evidence that God exists. Maybe read what I wrote again. My first line pretty much admitted I can’t.

I’m saying that I believe faith is individual for everyone. I didn’t expect you to take what I wrote as conclusive evidence lol. That’s not how it’s meant to work. But you also can’t disprove the testimonies that many people have experienced first hand.

sincerely, I really do not think you can provide evidence either.

While I am aware that faith is prone to errors, it's okay for people to have faith. We can't all be the empirical guy, you know. So there's beauty in diversity.

I don't have to disprove testimonies, the fact that a pastor who claims to be so powerful cannot heal an amputee in a controlled environment says a lot. It's okay to have such beliefs, even if they are not true. Where we start having issues is if you try to make your faith the universal truth that everyone should be subjected to, we will stay asking you for the evidence at that point.

Have the faith, let it remain in your life. Don't make it a universal truth if you cannot prove it universally.

FxMasterz:
And a confirmation that you're incapable of grasping the truth that you can only find God when you search for Him.

what truth?

Show me the truth with evidence and I will agree with you

wegevv:
I’m not sure there is scientific all conclusive evidence that God exists. I don’t believe that is how God intended “faith” to work. There also isn’t scientific all conclusive evidence that God does not exist.

I don't think science can ever prove or disprove the existence of a god but science have disproven the existence of the "Christian version of God"

Now many Christians have their own personal encounters that is enough for them. Imagine experiencing what Paul is described to have experienced in the Bible. That would be enough individual evidence for many. It certainly was for Paul.

personal encounters are not reliable. Don't even depend on personal encounters as humans are not as reliable as you think. It is why the word "evidence" exist.

These testimonies are not enough to conclusively prove to everyone that God exists but they do encourage others who then go on to find their own individual experiences and faith. I’m sure you’ve heard many testimonies and while they obviously won’t prove anything to you try put yourself in that person’s shoes next time.

testimonies are not evidence, they are claims. I don't know how this is difficult to understand. If you tell me a story, it's a claim.

For me I’ve also found that the Bible is more correct about many things (inter gender relations, tolerance, attitude under subjugation, etc) than the mainstream ideology atheists tend to subscribe to. I used to buy into many liberal ideology (e.g. blank slate theory) that majority of atheist in the west subscribe to. But I’ve realised many of these are idealistic thinking not built on truth. And finding the truth has led me back to the scripture and God. Life makes a lot more sense now and I could not be happier

I agree with the bible on many things, but the foundation upon which Christianity is built upon which is the virgin birth of Jesus and the creation story is inconsistent with reality. Christians cannot provide evidence for it. As a matter of fact, several evidence suggest that those stories are false

Ultimately Christians can’t answer all the questions. Paul himself admitted in Corinthians that “we only see a reflection as in a mirror” and we only “know in part”. We don’t have all the answers and that’s okay. It’s not like science can either

Christians cannot even answer basic questions, not all questions.
Basic questions like virgin birth and evidence for simple miracles which they claim to be true

FxMasterz:
Ignorant rant.

lol

FxMasterz:
I was never sent to convert anybody. We were never given such assignment. You're an atheist or you think I don't know you?

So this is confirmation that you are incapable of proving your God outside of your head

FxMasterz:
Just as your atheism is your personal delusion. You claim God does not exist, yet you can't prove it. If you want to prove God, go prove Him in the Churches. Nairaland is not God's house, is it?

I'm not an atheist.
Just prove that your God exist and convert everyone else he exist only in your head

FxMasterz:
If you want to prove me wrong. You can go to a Bible believing church ọkay?

I don't care whether people believe what I wrote or not. It's not my concern. I'm just sharing my experience.

I know the bijle better than most Christians exepct from some of your pastors who use it to defraud you.

Trust me