₦airaland Forum

Ifeann

Please let us address why Islam and your prophet endorses, supports and encourages slavery or child marriage or paedophilia or sex with captives or beheadings or stonings or revenge missions or assassination of his critics or the abrogations of revelations or polygamy(legalised adultery) or temporary marriage (legalised prostitution still practised by shites) or Al Taqiyya (use of deceit) or Incest (he slept with his adopted son's ex wife after he divorced her sine Mohammed lusted after her), or sex with captives(which he did often), or No adpotion in Islam or his fear of wall garkos (little lizards) or dogs (mans best friend) or sharing war booty or any other vice in the Qu'ran




I never disagree that you are against some of islamic teachings. All I asked is let's take them one by one. We started with killing, I don't see any point reminding me that you have so many problems with islam.

Reality that happens in this world is that there will be thieves. In a situation where the thief wants to kill my mum, and I have a gun and at a position where I have the advantage of killing him first. This could happen in reality do you agree? If yes, islam says I can kill the man before he kills my mum. What better advice would you give? The reason why I asked you this question again I repeat is to learn from you the better option to situation that occur in reality as supported by your beliefs.

Ifeann:
My friend you said, "Jesus was not a leader of a country, terror does not come in form of slapping alone"

I agree Jesus is not a leader of a country, he is the Son of God, one with the father, King of kings, seated at the right hand of the father and who ascended into heaven. My way to salvation and Even you Qu'ran admits his greatest and perfection. Why don't you listen to his message and not Mohammed's mostly opposite message, who is buried in mecca and who allegedly died by the poison of a Jewish woman. Why do you fight when Jesus says love, why do you stone and chop off hands when Jesus says forgive

Why do you kiss the black stone and stretch forth your hands to it for NO reason if not paganism under the guise of saying its related to Abraham.

Do you know that all Mohammed's male children from his combined 11 or so wives all died in infancy, why would that have happened to such a "prophet". Why wasn't such a great "prophet" given a male heir even though he lived to his 60s.

Think my friend.

If not having hairs is the criteria for prophethood then Jesus will not be a prophet in Islam. Why all that happened to him you asked. The prophet is the best example for us. He suffered the loss of children to be an example for those who will suffer the same. While these death occurred, did he cause God? No, so when any Muslim suffer the same he has a mentor to follow.

Muhammad would not be a perfect example if there is a situation a muslim can find himself and cannot find a way out using Muhammad's as a mentor.

If misfortune of people are being used to determine their prophethood Abraham, Noah, Moses and even Jesus have their own share of misfortunes. God promised abraham a child, he promised Noah victory. He promised Muhammad who suffered this misfortune something too. Do you know it? If you don't find out.

Ifeann
I know u find it difficult to believe I am against wars and killing because you are NOT used to peaceful solutions as a result of all the fighting from your Quran, I am tired of this line of questioning.


And if I must answer your question I say the best line of action is sign a peace treaty, encourage trade between both parties and encourage cultural integration.

Let's pause for a while on killing in Islam.


I asked questions because I don't want to assume and also to learn and not to bore you. Even though you want the world to be so peaceful, the reality is that it can not be perfectly peaceful. An example of such reality is boko haram caused by Islam. For the sake of argument and simplicity I agree. You know boko haram are not even ready to sign a treaty, I just want to know the solution your belief would use in solving this problem if not military.

Ifeann

We don't study the Qur’an and hadith neglecting the Situation or what causes the situation in Islam.

Eg if one person has killed another. The situation is killing has occurred. What happened prior to killing is very very important in knowing the stance of Islam on the situation.

Half knowledge can lead astray. Muhammad though you don't believe in him warned against it ie do only what is clear to you and avoid as much as possible what is not clear. To the best of my knowledge verses of the Qur'an and hadith about war is what you know, you don't know how they were applied in Islam.

I still hope I have not digressed from the topic which is killing. OK you don't accept that Muhammad's situation is the same as part of boko haram even though you have not studied all about it. OK for the sake of argument and for the sake of gaining something new from you let's look at this scenario

Nigeria is a christain country, muslims are attacking Nigeria from another country and they are hell bent on wiping the country out because of your belief in Christ. In the boundary of your belief, suggest the solution to your country leader.

You keep bringing if you were slapped on one side of the cheek turn the other side. Now apply this to this scenario if you believe it appears to all form of terror and if you believe it doesn't apply to all form of terror I will like you to state other standard to which you probably judge islam which I don't know about.

Again I asked this question because to me, with some backing from the quran I will suggest to the leader that we should repel this terrorist from other countries using military. But because you have a higher standard to which you say this is barbaric, tell state your own standard by which you will solve the problem.



God knows best and may he guide us right

Ifeann

Slavery in Islam is a way to treat prisoners of war. If an Arab does something, it does not necessarily mean islam support it. Muslims don't keep people in prison neither do they leave their opponents in war who are weak to die there. They share these people among themselves to cater for. These people do not posses the same right in that they can't inherit their owner's property etc. What if they commit a crime, they are not subjected to the same punishment under islamic law.

They were referred to as slaves not because they got captured for the purpose the westerners and some Arab have in mind but because they don't have equal right as normal citizens.

Muslims are slaves to Allah not because they were treated as Western slaves to western masters but because they submit totally to the will of God. I think when we address an issue let's address it as a whole.

Ifeann:
You said ,"I am responsible for my source of knowledge and I have not chosen you because you assume you know much about my beliefs. But, what I have seen is that you don't. "
my brother or sister in humanity I don't knw anything about what you believe or your beliefs but I do know what your hadiths and qu'ran tells Muslims to believe, if you chose NOT to believe it that's your cup of tea. The passages do not mince words. The commands are reasonably clear and I bring them to you as honestly as I can.

You say "But what I know for sure slavery in Islam is not slavery as you have presented it just like killing in Islam is not killing as you had presented it earlier."

Can't you see the flaw in this statement. You are of African/black decent. Do you not know that the westerners and Arabs traded your race as slaves and the church spoke against slavery declaring it immortal. If we depended on Islam you would have been a slave today. And yet u tell me slavery in Islam is not as I describe. Are u serious ?? After I quoted so much verses on this including the hadith that approves breeding of slaves.

Why am I wasting this information on you. I just hope that all the truths I have put here touches the heart of at least one Muslim destined to be saved so they can leave the falsehood of Islam.

You said," Or do you want us to change to discuss Christianity ie you want to preach to me. Having a goal will shape our discussion. Peace."

No my Friend l don't even know how to preach, call on the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, call God to guide you to his truth. Tell him to give u a dream or coincidences. It works. However if you have questions I have told you what to do in a previous chat.
I am free to answer you.

Your first paragraph, you dont know what I believed. What you are trying to do is you want me to believe what you believed about the quran and hadith , so that when that happened we will both agree the Qur’an and hadith are bad.

But the issue is in the first place, when some verses of the Qur'an were revealed, the Companions of the prophet asked questions because this some look harsh, some have more than a meaning. Islam is about the response of muhammed to these verses not your response to them.

Taking that into consideration the conditions in which these verses can be applied is different. You can't apply verses which tells you what to do when a child is born to a situation where someone has died. In the same way you can't apply verses which was revealed for the purpose of muhammed defending his life, the life of his followers and their properties when they were being prosecuted to verses that told them what to do when they were living without prosecution.

Where, when and how we use the Qur’an is part of Islam which I think you are not taking into consideration to know what islam is. Qur’an contains ayats, ayats does not necessarily mean verse, it also mean signs, symbols etc. Actions, saying and interpretation of the prophet is islam.

By the time you use the action of the prophet (hadith) during the time of war to mean his actions during the time of peace then you are saying something entirely from what I understand as islam.

Ifeann:
Stop comparing Nigeria's army killing boko haram to Mohammed's fightings in mecca and caravan raids in Medina . They are not the same thing and besides its because of Mohammed that the nigerian army is killing young Muslims in the first place..

I will not say anything about Mohammed's issues in mecca that led to his flight to Medina because I am yet to study it in details. I like to be knowledgeable in a topic before I speak on it. I haven't studied the hadiths on the matter.

What I will do is compare Mohammed's course of action with what we can find about Christ in the bible;
You admit Mohammed defended himslef and commanded his people to fight ok here is what Christ did:

1. Christ said If you are slapped in one cheek turn over your other cheek.(my Christians find this one difficult to do)

2.When the soilders came to get Christ while he was with some of his disciples, to lead him to the Pharisees, herod and pontius pilate for judgement of blasphemy and to be crucified. Peter his discipline took out a knife and cut a soldiers ear , but Christ said no, he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. And he picked up and restored the soldiers ear.

Now this is beautiful. I wish to live like this and not revenge and slaughter and lay ambush and raid caravans as Mohammed chose to do. If you want verses I will give it to you...in bulk.

What's our next topic.

You said you haven't study on Muhammad's plight in mecca before he flees. You only study the end and concluded. Try and study all so that you don't misjudge out of context of the matter.

If you study the Qur’an well, you will know that if you are wronged by another human, the best option is to forgive and forget.

Jesus was not a leader of a country, terror does not come in form of slapping alone. People muhammad (saw) lead are in danger of being prosecuted because of what they believe. The reason why I am using the boko haram issue is simply because we both have roughly the same amount of knowledge about it. So we both agree it's a problem we are battling with. Since you belief don't support using military means to defend yourself, what is the solution your belief posses to this kind of situation?

Ifeann:
I still don't understand what this has to do with our topic on Islam.
If Islam was not on earth you and I won't be discussing boko haram.

Yes I am against murder and won't commit it. I am against owning a gun or any thing that involves taking precious human life.

Notwithstanding, I support our army for putting their life at risk to protect the north from itself but would prefer if the solution is NOT murder as America has done with the Afghan and Pakistani Taliban, and the Israeli army with the Palestinians. Am I not clear enough. Murder and killing only begets more murder and killing. This is my stance on the issue. What more do you want from me my friend.

You don't support killing of any form but you support our army.

Before the first war in Islam, Muslim were prosecuted, the reason why they can't retaliate is because as at that time, there is no single verse of the Qur'an supporting defending oneself militarily. They did not even run away from prosecution until God commanded them....... You may not believe that anyway. While at Medina, they lived with non muslims who didn't wage any war to them. But the meccans keep coming. In the light of this, God allowed them to defend, retaliate etc using military means. Some of which are the verses you quoted earlier. And even though we use military, we have guidelines eg, we must not destroy properties or fight those who we know can't harm us in battle. And what of when the opponent eg boko haram surrender, we agree on treaties and end the war.

In no situation did muhammad fought those whom he lived with peace with. Since we interpret the Qur’an in the boundary of what muhammed did, in no condition are we allowed to fight those we made treaties of peace with except they break it.

If killing in any form is bad. Then suggest a practicable solution to the Nigerian government when next they get the news that boko haram wants to attack a city.

Not to go far, there was a terrorist group eradicated during some of the past military rule in Nigeria. So in that light, give us eg of where your suggestions as a christain as worked in the past in eradicating terror.

The reason why I asked those questions the way I did is that, Atleast if defending oneself using the military as supported by islam is bad, that means your belief presents a better option which I will like you to state.


There are other reasons one can kill as stated in the Qur’an, we will discuss that after we finish with the issue of defense. Peace

Ifeann:
I told @ypeace to start from the new testament so she can understand the true God's new covenant with believers by the sacrifices of our Lord Jesus . I can also direct ypeace to the old testament so she can see the prophecies about the coming of the messiah to affirm the new testaments validity.
Ypeace is a Muslim so she believes the old testament or torah is the inspired word of God, modern day Muslims actually have a problem with the injeel/new testament and not the torah, though their prophet had no issue with either one as I have presented to her from her book in our previous chat and I will present to her/him again;

1. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong) (Surah 3:3).
2. If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt. And be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the losers (Surah 10:94-95; 16:43)

I still don't know why atheists such as yourself and Muslims keep attacking Christianity.

GOd is the greatest and all powerful, all merciful and all loving. His people can never be subdued no matter the prosecution from atheists and jizyah tax payments to Muslims. Truth will prevail and conquer darkness no matter the cunning and deceit of falsehood

This is not the trend we were discussing on. How did we land here. I am not a she. I am a male.
How did you deduct I believe in the bible both old and NT? Please don't assume I belief something. Atleast ask.

Ifeann:
I don't know what this has to do with our discussion on Islam but I shall answer anyway.

I don't agree with taking human life,
I am against any form of abortion unless the mothers life is in valid danger. I am against capital punishment. I don't believe in killing a murderer.

I will not join the army for any reason.
It hurts me when innocent Muslims and these young boko haram boys in the north are killed because it could all have been prevented if these young guys were not exposed to some of the qu'ran verses I have mentioned.
I hope I have answered your question.

What's your next one.

What I can derive from your statement is even if boko haram should continue to kill us, we should ......................... Please what solution does your believe prescribe to this?

Then, those judge who sentenced a boko haram to death and those army defending the life and properties of Nigerians are committing a sin by killing boko right?


Even though that is what I can infer from your statement, I would like you to confirm if my deductions are right.

ooman:
Let him actually start from the beginning - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy and let see if he won't see such.

I saw that too, but please that is not the focus for now. Let's take them one by one. May God guide us right.

Ifeann:
There are so many issues and they are related that's why I bring them up and compare with Christianity,

If u want use to stay on killing for now let's say on it then.

If I am correct I asked a question because I feel your stance on killing is, not matter what, killing is bad. You stated that my question is based on assumptions, OK now I will rephrase it, as a christain, do you support Nigeria army killing boko haram? As a muslim, I support Nigeria army killing boko haram as a muslim though I don't support some of the non constitutional and non islamic way they use sometimes. So I will like to know your stance on killing relating to this.

Ifeann

Do you notice how often SEX, WOMEN, SLAVE, CAPTIVE, FIGHT, SWORD, SLAY, PUNISH, REWARD, appears in your Qu'ran and hadiths.. Please think about it. Get a bible start from Mathew, mark, Luke and John (the new covenant we live under) and see if you see such.


Yea I noticed before you state it. You remember our discussion started from where I asked a question who is missing the point of the discussion. And there you quoted a whole lot of verses on killing. We are not through with that you quoted about slavery and then you moved to quoting from the Bible ............ Yea I agree, these are issues you have with islam. Don't you think we are supposed to finish with one before jumping to another?

What I meant is let's finish with an issue. We were discussing killing, if you feel there is nothing much to discuss on that, then slavery which I can give you sources if you care because I don't have enough islamic knowledge on that. Also if what you will like is questions and answers on Christianity then............. All I am after is let's have a focus. Not jumping from one topic to another. Peace

Ifeann:
.

There is a reason why I asked the question which I feel you are not interested in answering. What you resulted to is religion comparism. If I should engage you in that, we will keep jumping from one topic to another endlessly. Atleast if I clear the one I know about Islam, other muslims who have learnt about others and who are more knowledgeable will clear others. If you feel we should leave what we were discussing earlier then fine. I only speak about what I know something about and what I don't know anything about I try to learn about it. I am responsible for my source of knowledge and I have not chosen you because you assume you know much about my beliefs. But, what I have seen is that you don't.

If the discussion is about islamic banking, I would have told you I don't know much about it the way I told you I don't know much about slavery in Islam. But what I know for sure slavery in Islam is not slavery as you have presented it just like killing in Islam is not killing as you had presented it earlier.

Thanks for the hadith and Qur'an verses you have quoted I will take note of them when I learn about slavery in Islam.

Now, should we continue discussing about the one I have knowledge about. The one I don't have knowledge about, I can recommend sources to you if you care. Or do you want us to change to discuss Christianity ie you want to preach to me. Having a goal will shape our discussion. Peace.

malvisguy212:
you are confusing your self, first you say he was the first to submit your next statement say '' Not the first person to submit''. Then abraham who live thousand of years before muhammed did not submit? But he was a muslim.
The hadith say muhammed was in the cave of hira when the truth descend on him. Does this mean all other prophet were living in lies? If other's prophet were abiding in truth and the scripture was sufficient to saved them, what the need of the quran? There is a manipulation going on some where in the quran, satan is battling with the truth.

God told adam not to eat the fruit and adam submit? But the bible say adam disobey God.

Lolz actually when I read what I wrote myself, the first two statement looks further confusing. OK let me rephrase. Out of those who who took an exam Muhammad scored the highest mark and came first. But Adam was the first to take the exam. Hope you now understand the concept. If you understand and don't support it then you can explain to me how it is not so.

Ifeann:
I see you don't have a problem with the issues I raised about Mohammed's conduct. Look you are far luckier than so many Muslims who don't have the opportunity to be given this information and be invited to the true way of life as commanded by the true God.

I don't understand your first question about the Government and Boko haram. But I will tell you this, if those boys had a christain upbringing they will be in school and NOT carrying out some of these commands in the Quran and hadiths;

Qur'an (9:29)-"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Sura 9:5. "When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them."

Bukhari 2:24: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

You say you fell comfortable when your beliefs are challenged, I say you are not being honest. How can u be comfortable when I give you passages of
1. Stonings of female approved by your prophet therefore instantly sending them to hell after Christ has come to die for our sins and plead our case to God the father when we sin .

2. Contradictions in your qu'ran.

3. Information from your sources as it is recorded Aisha was married to your prophet at six and had sex with her at 9. This is paedophilia not to mention he had several other wives and sex slaves at this point. Christ who died in his 30s never knew a woman talkless of a child 600 years before the arrival of Mohammed

4. That your prophet says all you will do is drink wine, have servants and have sex for eternity with virgins. God is the only one who is to be served in heaven. If wine is bad here it should be bad in paradise and I don't understand why people should be having sex(such an earthly pleasure) in the presence of your god and not worshipping him.
See some passages;

“Serving [the believers] will be immortal youths with jeweled and crystal cups filled with the purest wine which will neither give them headache nor hangover, with fruits and meats of their desire. They will be fair ones with lovely intense eyes like guarded pearls; A reward for the good deeds of their past life.”(56:17-24)

“We have created mates for them and made them virgins, matched in age, for the companions of the right hand.”(56:35-38)

“They will be chaste, restraining their eyes in modesty, never touched by man or Jinn.”(55:56)

“Serving them will be immortal servants. When you see them, they will look like scattered pearls.”(76:19)

5. That your prophet once said 'Allah's three daughters' – al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat, each of which had a shrine near Mecca where to be worshipped.
"These are the exalted cranes Whose intercession is to be hoped for." (Surah 53:19-22)
In the time of Moses he would have been stoned to death as a false prophet because The True God can not allow the words of his prophet be compromised.

6. That the bible/injeel which your prophet affirms warns us that the anti Christ will deny Jesus is the Christ and the relationship between the father and the son.
Your Koran does not deny that Jesus is the Christ but it denies the relationship between father and son. Hence its an anti Christ.

If you don't feel uncomfortable with these point (and there are more I left out), then you lie my friend or just wants to remain ignorant of the true facts

To be sincere I am not uncomfortable. There is no way I think I can prove that. Yea you raised a whole lots of points. I can't address all for example the issue o slavery.

But try and let's stay on one for now which is killing. My belief is we can kill in Islam as stated in the Qur’an. Under what circumstances, I haven't discussed that yet because I notice that you are trying to mean any form of killing is prohibited. I can't discuss situation in which killing is allowed in Islam if you still hold the view that killing of any form and any book that contains that automatically becomes evil.

That is why I asked. Let's assume boko haram from outside your country is facing your country assuming you are the leader. Will you fight back? If no. Then is Nigeria guilty of fighting back? If no then the constitution of Nigeria automatically supports killing and therefore it's bad right?

chuose:
The imams in the videos are preaching it.

The quoran preaches it.

Moslems do it.

Here is another video that endorses beating women, only in islam


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNIPbfck3ws

We can't discuss much if you assume that
1 . what all what Iman preaches is what I believe.
2. That it is what you think I believe, I believe.
3. That whatever muslims do or say is what I will do and say.

I short you aren't explaining things to me with what I believe, you are explaining it to me using what you think I believe.

I haven't watched the video but will try to when I have a good network service.

yazach:
[/s]

The upper canceled statements is against our rule (abusive words) while the lower ones are too much(act of derailing the topic and to prevent you from depending on Islamophobia sites which in turns gives you opportunity to use your personal reasoning)

Go back to your last post where you said you had nothing to do with those sites but I can noticed from this post that you lied

Now to the uncanceled once: Why are you referring to those verses alone, I think what I ask of you is to explain the verse where Allah clearly and directly forbid compulsion in Islam. You should be able to compare the two so I will be glad if you merge the verse(There is no compulsion in Islam) with the ones you quoted


Now to your doubt

Please avoid constructing your statement in a way to make non muslim feel uncomfortable. May God guide us right.

Ifeann:
I don't feel comfortable when my beliefs are challenged, especially by atheists, so I know how you feel. However I do an investigation of their points and see if it has any validity.
You say I quote Islam from my own perspective. NO I don't, I quote the words of your quran and haddiths without any additions. You said you are still learning so please learn.
I have asked you to correct me if I quoted wrongly and you haven't.
You say I argue from my perspective or bias, of course I do and you do the same, we all have personal bias, only the truth can change those bias. But my aim not to agrue for argument sake.

You mentioned about killings in Islam, let's do a little comparism;
Christains are forbidden to kill, it is the 6th commandement. Jesus commanded us to turn the other cheek if we are slapped. We should forgive even if we are offended 70 x 7 times in a day by anybody. Jesus stopped the stoning of an adulteress and forgave her.
On the other hand Mohammed commanded Muslims to kill pAgans, apostates, fight the Jews and christains until they say the shahadda or pay the jizyah and they are told to stone adulteress and caught limbs and revenge trespasses.

Jesus, the most perfect person ever on earth gives us a good way of life (and even your Koran says that he was taken into heaven and shall come again while Mohammeds stays buried in mecca)
Another person comes and gives the people an opposite message., how do you want me and other Christians to accept that..

Read this message from the injeel;


Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

As a Christian, leader of a country disturbed by boko haram, what will you do? And the way the government has taken up the challenge by fighting them. Are they guilty?

I feel comfortable when my beliefs are challenged. It gives me another perspective, make me ask questions and seek knowledge about what I may not have encountered on my own.


Modified : I saw your comment about lying in Islam, Jesus being the best man on earth etc. I didn't say anything on them not because I agree but because I think you are trying to illustrate and pass a message. I feel discussing your method of illustration rather than the concept of your message will make us jump from one topic to another unnecessarily.

[quote author=Ifeann post=29021747

Stop living in denial and face the truth of the falsehood of Islam.[/quote]I am not living in denial. And what I meant by still learning is, I can't speak much about some aspect of Islam I haven't learnt about. You seem to use that to measure my level of ignorance rather than knowledge and assume you already know much more than me. That's the way I see it as you keep reminding me I told you I am learning.

Let me illustrate on what I meant by perspective. You know some Christians say Jesus equals God but Jesus himself said my father is greater than I. Now I don't really know how they interpret that, but for them to still hold on to the believe that Jesus equals God, they probably have given preference to other verses which stated otherwise. Then use their preferred verse to interpret this.

In the Qur’an, we are asked to pray 5 times a day, the number of rakkah is not stated in the Qur’an but then almost all Muslims would pray 2 rakkah in subh. This is because we interpret the Qur’an in the boundary of what muhammed (saw) did.

About slaves, I don't know much about rules guiding slavery in Islam. So I can't speak much on that.

Have you listened to tafsir of the quran from a muslim before?

Ifeann:
I don't feel comfortable when my beliefs are challenged, especially by atheists, so I know how you feel. However I do an investigation of their points and see if it has any validity.
You say I quote Islam from my own perspective. NO I don't, I quote the words of your quran and haddiths without any additions. You said you are still learning so please learn.
I have asked you to correct me if I quoted wrongly and you haven't.
You say I argue from my perspective or bias, of course I do and you do the same, we all have personal bias, only the truth can change those bias. But my aim not to agrue for argument sake.

You mentioned about killings in Islam, let's do a little comparism;
Christains are forbidden to kill, it is the 6th commandement. Jesus commanded us to turn the other cheek if we are slapped. We should forgive even if we are offended 70 x 7 times in a day by anybody. Jesus stopped the stoning of an adulteress and forgave her.
On the other hand Mohammed commanded Muslims to kill pAgans, apostates, fight the Jews and christains until they say the shahadda or pay the jizyah and they are told to stone adulteress and caught limbs and revenge trespasses.

Jesus, the most perfect person ever on earth gives us a good way of life (and even your Koran says that he was taken into heaven and shall come again while Mohammeds stays buried in mecca)
Another person comes and gives the people an opposite message., how do you want me and other Christians to accept that..

Read this message from the injeel;


Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

In this time of boko haram, is fighting Back or defending yourself against them justified? Yes or no? Let's assume you are a leader, how will you defend yourself and your people oppression such as that of boko haram?

@chuose

Even if that is not the meaning, as long as there is beating up in the Qur’an, islam support it. Hmm, if Muslims were to go by your own Interpretation, sincerely I will agree with you that islam is a bad nigga. But fortunately for us, we don't derive our meaning from you.

Ifeann:
I don't even understand what you are trying to suggest with regard to the points I raised.

My point is that isalm is false. Look ponder on this,

For 1400 years , that is 14 centuries, Islam has battled to dominate the world as it is commanded in your Quran. And for 1400 years it has failed. Your Islamic empires and caliphates came and disappeared into the histories.

Christians have been persecuted by Muslims as commanded in your book and has paided the jizyah for centuries yet Christians still out number moslems and surpass Islam in progress and contribution to humanity. The most power nation on earth was founded with christain principles and has led the world in progress with science, art etc.

Again after centuries of persecuting Jews they still managed to create a homeland in the very heart of Islamic nations. They fought a war in 1967 shortly after their creation in 1948, they were attacked by Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Iraq who where supported by Algeria, Kuwait, Libya, Morocco, Pakistan, the PLO, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, tunisa and YET Israel WON in 6 days. CAN'T you see that the God of Israel saw his people victorious. 1.2 billion Muslims yet 20million Jews dominate you in politics, sciencific breakthrough, arts, economics, education, human rights, inventions, social system, military etc.. Why are they so bless even though your book condemns them and calls them pigs.

Ponder on this my friend.

it is not part of the belief of a muslim that we would dominate in politics, scientific knowlege etc. And I don't think winning of wars by non muslims is a criteria for selecting what is right about Islam. And according to sayings of the Muhammad, which you dont believe anyway, Islam is what he said it would be during the last hour we are in. I dont see us agreeing on anything because what we are discussing is the result of our different beliefs not the belief themselves.

Ifeann:
My reply was to ayinba1 , I mentioned you because you seek more understanding. I like the fact you admit you are still a learner, God is merciful and loving, he has directed your path to this forum so that you can learn from people who spend their free time exposing Muslims to the truths of Islam. And if ever I quote a verse wrongly it is not intentional.

Before you continue learning, call upon the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob to bring you to the truth. Salam alaykum

exposing muslims you say, interpreting islam from your own perspective i say.

Perspective…….. Before I proceed, I will first like to discuss this because I think it will aid my explanation.
Naturally, when we encounter information which is against our belief, we go into a defensive mode. And when the info is in support of our belief, we switch to attacking mode. The way we interpret info is based on prior belief, knowledge and experience. It determines what and what we give more importance to.

You naturally give preference to some ayats of the Quran over others. same thing I think those called extremist do. Truly, a muslim can kill, it is part of our constitution...... Quar'an. If you should killing, no matter the situation, is not allowed, then, even christians in the army defending their territory may get punished for it. Even the constitution of Nigeria supports killing as a form of punishment.

though you dont believe in Muhammad (saw), but to a muslim, he is the best interpreter of the Quran. We, muslims interprete the Quran the way the prophet has taught us and also because we gave preference to his teachings. in that sense, the quran verses you quoted earlier does not apply to situation where muslims are not being prosecuted by non muslims. And even when muslims are oppressed, and the oppressor has repented, then it will be better for a muslim to stay away from revenging. what of when non muslim are oppressing us, we have the right to defend or retaliate approppriately. I have tried not to quote the Quran because you dont believe in it. And i know you may not agree with my explanation because you dont agree with what I believed before making this deduction. In order to be able to convince ourselves, it will be important to tackle previous beliefs. God knows best. peace.

Ifeann:
You forget to ask them this. Why does the Koran say repeatedly that it is clear to understand, easy to comprehend. If ayinba and peace read their Koran they should have seen several passages that say so, However their is so much confusion with the interpretation of verses. So much moslems depend on their scholars, apologetics, imam, shiek etc for explanations That's why you have the Wahabi, Salafists, sunnis, shites, alwaites, ahmedies. Their disputes are so intense that they blow each other up for it.
Why do I knw that isalm's domination agenda will ultimately fail? Here is why, The bible let's us knw that a house divided amongst itself shall not stand and God is not the author of confusion.

when God told Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit, there was no confusion about the message. But how come they both ate it? for those who reflect and those who do not listen to the whisper of shaitan, the message of the Qur'an is clear.

Ifeann:
@AYINBA1 u are missing the point of this discussion entirely. @YPEACE.

Please who is missing the point me, AYINBA1 or both of us. About the op. You can't say for certain why the op has ignored the thrend. About what you wrote, I will have to go through the whole discussion about that from the first page before replying. Though I may keep quiet if others who are more knowledgeable reply you because I am still a learner. Peace be onto you

lafflaff123:
Christianity is a little bit more complicated than what you think, as most Christians have different beliefs and how they worship in the Christendom, for example the Cele and most White Garment churches still believe in the Old Testament. They also believe in marrying more than one woman, and believe a woman on her menstrual cycle is not suppose to be inside the church as they consider it unclean.

But for Islam, its one Koran, one Belief, one behavior, same radicalization, same peaceful preaching until they get offended and honestly people keep referring to all Muslims as one, because there really is no proven yardstick for the differentiation between MUSLIM (A) and MUSLIM(B)

Even the Sunni's and Shiites read the same Koran.

So this is is the little help i want from you and AYINBA1 and that is, HOW DO WE KNOW WHICH MUSLIMS to trust? which one to be Comfortable with? which one would not classify us and infidels and want to slit our throats?why do i need to be forced to be a Muslim to even live in some society in the world?

So back to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Other Islamic faithfuls in Egypt were so very uncomfortable with the brand of Islam they were preaching that they not only got thrown out of power, but also threw them in jail.

YPEACE and AYINBA1 why is the Koran, which is just one(not like the Christian old testament and new testament)open to such different interpretation? we are learning here, and i really await your replies.

If all of us are placed in the same class, taught the same thing by the same teacher under the same conditions. Are we going to understand it the same way? Will the person who understand it most be held responsible for those who don't understand at all?

Different interpretations?.......... Personal interpretations.... Yes.
Most muslims distort meaning of the quran to achieve their 'objectives' . Muhammad is a practical example of the quran. Any islamic act not supported by these won't even make sense to a muslim. Sunni's and other sects issue, if it doesn't happen, then Muhammad's sayings about the last hour will be wrong. What a muslim should do in such a situation where we have various distortions is clearly taught by muhammed (saw) .

In short what causes the different interpretations is due to 'human negative side'....... Ignorance, mischief, culture, laziness etc.

That is why when you are ' preaching ' to a muslim, it is important to know what he believes or else it would seem like a muslim preaching against kneeling down to Mary, what catholics do, to a cele. Imagine the expression on the face of the Cele.


What non muslims call extremists are what muslims see as those who are on the wrong path or misled.

I don't think it have answered your questions convincingly though but I wish you read slowly and try to get my message. Peace.


Modified.....
How to know which muslim to believe?
The one who practices islam. How do you know islam. Learn islam. How? An example is questioning which you are doing. But the best way is Qur’an and authentic tafsir from authentic hadith. I as a civilian knows little about what a military officer must know about Islam. So have it in mind you can't have all answers about Islam from a single person. May God guide us right.

malvisguy212:
The Qur’an states Muhammad was the first Muslim. ( Surah 6:163). However, it also that Abraham who lived centuries before Muhammad was a Muslim. ( Surah 3:67). And The Qur’an states that the disciples of Jesus who lived before Muhammad were also Muslims. ( Surah 5: 111). In fact, the Qur’an claims that all prophets, from the time of Abraham to Muhammad were Muslims. (Surah 22:78)
My question;
1. Since the quran say muhammed is the first muslim while at the same time declaring abraham and the rest who live hundred of years before the coming of muhammed to be a muslims,is this not a clear prove of contradiction?
2. How are you going to reconcile the Qur’an’s claim
that Muhammad was the first Muslim with the
Qur’an’s statement that the disciples of Jesus who
lived before him were Muslims?
3. Do you not agree that if Abraham was truly a
Muslim as the Qur’an claims, then Muhammad
cannot be the first Muslim?
4. Do you not agree that if the disciples of Jesus were truly Muslims as the Qur’an claims, then Muhammad cannot be the first Muslim?
5. Do you not agree that one or the other verse in the Qur’an is a lie?
6. Does this not clearly prove that the Qur’an contains a false statement in it?
Will the true Word of God contain an error in it?
7. As such, can you really trust the Qur’an as the Word of God?

Soo many question needed answer,the op say islam mean peace,surrender,does this not go against the freewill of God?adam and eve were giving a freewill which God did not interfere with,the word'' surrender'' seem's like a man who has ONE option to love God or die, but freewill has TWO option,love God or hate Him, it a choice which God will not interfere in it.

I am the first of those who submit........ Is the statement. Not the first person to submit. He is the top most muslim, the highest muslim........ Not the first person to do it on earth. There is a different between the tafsir of the quran, what those who understand Arabic and what non muslims believe. Muslim believe the tafsir. But when I see non muslim argue, they assume what muslims believe and then argue based on their assumption. It is equivalent to muslims assuming that a redeemer is a cele and arguing with the redeemer based on the assumption. Wanna know what muslim belief and correct the belief? Then learn what muslims believe in. If you are arguing that the meaning given to the verse I explained is not correct giving adequate quotes from the quran and hadith, that is an argument I will definitely learn from but imposing your own Interpretation and arguing again it........... Makes it look like the redeemer and c nd s example I gave above. Peace be onto you.
Modified

About free will. Let me use your example to explain the concept of free will in Islam or the way I believe it as a muslim. God gave Adam and Eve the freewill to eat and not to eat the forbidden fruit. God gave human same kind of free will.


God gave them the instruction not to eat the forbidden fruit, they submit to his instruction, surrender to his instruction by not eating it even though it may go against their wish.
I hope you have a glimpse on how muslim see the concept? Peace be onto you.

.

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gatiano:
you are a liar, and you lack a faculty, wisdom and intiative to want to learn, study or read.

please, dont call som1 u want to explain something to a liar. It elevates the barrier between you and the person. The one you know explain it to them in the best of manners. When it get to a point of argument and insult, try and keep silent or walk away. Even muslim like me learn from your post, dont keep us off with insults. May God protect us all

Username. I ll like you to understand something if you care. The aspect of sharia is like the constitution of a country, the best person who will be able to explain a constitution is not the citizen of a country but either a judge or a lawyer.
If you agree with the above, what a muslim who doesn't study shariah in islam would give you is likely to be proportional to what citizens would tell you about their constitution. Why, where, when a particular is appied may not be gotten from all moslems.
Now i will like to challenge you. If truely you want to learn, learn from both sides, ask question from both sides. Those who are in support and against it. But i doubt if we have some1 on nairaland who has full knowlege of shariah. God knows best. Peace be with you all.