I hear what you're saying Pilgrim, but I don't think you understand what I am trying to say. Let me use an analogy. If I were to say to you that "my sister is physically dead" would it make a difference If I were to have simply said that "my sister is dead"?

I will assume that your response would be no.

If I were to say to you that "my sister is spiritually dead" what comes to mind? If I were to change up the grammer a bit and said instead, "my sister has experienced spiritual death" What comes to mind? The same meaning right?

My understanding of Genesis 2:17 is that both our parents Adam and Eve would experience both a physical and spiritual decline, or put another way, they would gradually lose the image of their Creator as time progressed.

To say that they both experienced spiritual death is like saying that their hope of spiritual restoration ceased before it even started. You bring as it were a certain suddenness to the whole thing. Adam and Eve did not totally lose their grasp on spiritual matters. If that were the case then they would have hardly had a reason to remain alive. Instead God explained to them the plan of salvation that was to unfold, which no doubt included them. In fact God Himself demonstrated in the act of taking the life of an animal to clothe them, to show them that one day His Son would have to shed His blood to save the world. Both Adam and Eve were instructed to teach their sons about the blood sacrifice that would typify Christ's supreme sacrifice. Abel was faithful to the command, while Cain chose to disobey, and the rest is history.

(c) the collective testimony of Scripture is that this death (spiritual death) passed upon EVERY single being that ever lived - even over those who had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression (Romans 5:14).

Romans 5:14
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

You see Adam had no desire to sin naturally as in our case. We were born with a natural propensity to sin, but in Adam's case that was not so. His sin was a deliberate act. He chose to sin.

I am inclined to see death in that sentence as physical, because even if a person accepts Christ he or she is still subject to the physical death, and that is the death that was pronounced upon Adam and Eve. You see the curse of death will always be physical even if a person is born again. Besides, being born again is no guarantee of eternal life. As the physical birth does not guarantee physical life, so likewise spiritual birth does not guarantee eternal life. Many who have entered as it were the spiritual world, and who had access to divine truth have backslided and turned again into the world.

I believe that Adam's sin brought condemnation, and this condemnation would be the final death or total separation that everyman would experience for failing to accept God's plan of salvation. The bible says there is a measure of faith in everyman. So even though we are born in sin, and shaped in iniquity, there lies within us a conscience that helps us to see right from wrong. Our conscience however can die if we fail to listen to the Holy Spirit's promptings. The further we move form God the harder it becomes to hear His Spirit.

(e) however, the basic principle that speaks of this specific experience in the event in Genesis is well encapsulated in 1 Corinthians 15:22 -- "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive". You can see here that being "made alive" is not a matter of being physically alive - for even Christians also die physically. The death that all die in Adam is spiritual death - it does not matter that a man lives the age of Methuselah.

Put it this way. For one to experience freedom from death physically, one must accept Christ's supreme sacrifice as their only means to salvation. So being made alive applies to both the spiritual as well as the physical. The spiritual restoration must proceed the physical one.

Dear Bobbyaf,

I think you have taken great effort to say the same thing and yet not arrived at any cogent point that would clearly enunciate your persuasion. Let me highlight them in simple terms:

#1. My argument is that the Bible does not teach that spiritual death is a gradual process, as you had mistakenly assumed:

Bobbyaf:

My understanding of Genesis 2:17 is that both our parents Adam and Eve would experience both a physical and spiritual decline, or put another way, they would gradually lose the image of their Creator as time progressed.

Spiritual death set in the moment they sinned - it was not a matter of "spiritual decline" . . . or as "time progressed". Even the argument that they would "gradually lose the image of their Creator" is not taught in Scripture - and that is the point that I've tried to outline for you earlier. Nowhere is death (whether physical or spiritual) a matter of "gradual", "decline", "progress" or whatever else - and that is precisely where you are mixing up issues here!

The analogy that you gave does not even help your persuasion. If one's sister experienced physical death, does that come GRADUALLY? Do you say that someone started dying since last week . . or last year? My brother, death is instanteneous - and depending on the context, it is either it occured at the moment inferred, or it did not occur at all.


#2, My second persuasion is precisely opposite to this:

Bobbyaf:

To say that they both experienced spiritual death is like saying that their hope of spiritual restoration ceased before it even started. You bring as it were a certain suddenness to the whole thing. Adam and Eve did not totally lose their grasp on spiritual matters. If that were the case then they would have hardly had a reason to remain alive.

That someone is spiritually dead does not mean that his or her hope of "spiritual restoration" ceased. The Bible clearly says that we were DEAD in sins (Ephesians 2:1 & 5) - dead spiritually; such that we were "without Christ, . .  having no hope, and without God in the world" (verse 12). Unless these verses are not in the Bible, I don't see how anyone would be espousing the idea that spiritual death means that one's hope of restoration had ceased - when in fact the Bible says we were WITHOUT hope!

This is not my idea - I'm keen on what the Bible simply teaches. And until we look into God's WORD and settle our thoughts on what it teaches, this argument may go on for ever away from what Scripture teaches.

Cheers.

@pilgrim.1 & Bobbyaf


Please let us get back to the topic of this thread and if you want to argue over physical and spiritual death, you can always create a thread for that pleaseeeeeeeee

I KNOW THIS MAY SOUND NASTY , BUT I BELIEVE IT HAS SOME MERITS.

JESUS AS A SON OF GOD HOW TRUE IS IT.

MUSLIMS BELIEVE GOD HAS NO SON AND HE IS IN NEED OF NONE.
ARGUMENT APART , GOD EXISTENCE HAS NO BEGINNING AND NO END, MEANING
THAT HE WILL NEVER GROW OLD, GET TIRED , NOR DIE AND DEFINITELY NEEDS NO
HEIR.
SO I ASK WHAT DOES HE NEED A SON FOR.

@ismailys20,

ismailys20:

I KNOW THIS MAY SOUND NASTY , BUT I BELIEVE IT HAS SOME MERITS.

I don't assume that your persuasions sound "nasty" until you help to confirm it so.

ismailys20:

JESUS AS A SON OF GOD HOW TRUE IS IT.

The Bible declares the FACT - both by OT prophecies; and in the NT teaching where He stated it so by Himself.

ismailys20:

MUSLIMS BELIEVE GOD HAS NO SON AND HE IS IN NEED OF NONE.

That is okay - I was once a Muslim who believed that previously. I have come to see that God indeed has a divine Son - not because He "NEEDED" to have one; but because the uncreated Son ever existed with the Father. Rather than God having a "need", it is mankind who NEEDS to understand the revelation of the Son of God!

ismailys20:

ARGUMENT APART , GOD EXISTENCE HAS NO BEGINNING AND NO END,

Which also is the teaching of the Bible.

ismailys20:

MEANING THAT HE WILL NEVER GROW OLD, GET TIRED , NOR DIE AND DEFINITELY NEEDS NO
HEIR.

You cannot be too sure what Muhammad thought of 'Allah', for he claimed once that Allah was HURT! What's the difference between an 'Allah' who gets HURT and your claims above?

ismailys20:
SO I ASK WHAT DOES HE NEED A SON FOR.

As explained above. Man is in "need" of receiving and understanding who the Son of God truly IS.

@babs787,

babs787:

@pilgrim.1 & Bobbyaf

Please let us get back to the topic of this thread and if you want to argue over physical and spiritual death, you can always create a thread for that pleaseeeeeeeee

We have been on the issues that you offered; and if you could not stand to logically follow the discussion, what are you complaining about?

If your Jesus already came to save you and remove all your sin, then why are you still waiting for him to return, and why are you still sinning?