Image123:
Why would anyone take a person who does not know, or cannot say if he has eternal life seriously? frosb, do you have eternal life?

What is eternal life ?

alexleo:

See what fear can do to a hopeless preacher. Keep displaying your shame with your idiotic teachings which are only meant to deceive people to eternal damnation. God will not allow you to succeed. AGENT OF SATAN. His bitter truth is knocking your satan colonised head on the hard wall and here you are crying. Cry man, cry if you care but the truth must be told.

"christian"!

truthislight:

"christian"!

You want to get involved as a co agent of lies with frosbel that you are? I am never tired of battling you liars.

alexleo:

You want to get involved as a co agent of lies with frosbel that you are? I am never tired of battling you liars.

On whose or what authority are you creating this scandal of bad manners ?

truthislight:

On whose or what authority are you creating this scandal of bad manners ?

You are a merchant of lies and I will always kick against your lies. Deal with your silly question.

Hell is real.

Repent and escape for your life.
Your disbelieve does not and will not change the truth. Why don't you just accept it and live an obedient life.

Stop de-emphasizing holy living. Jesus said be thou holy as my father in heaven is holy.

If there is a judgment day,what do you think d judgment will be like,bearing in mind the death of our Lord Jesus Christ?

That video is to warn us all.

enilove: Hell is real.

Hell is indeed dreary and something not to desirable but maybe I should try it, no ? In fact, I think I've experienced it to lesser degree in the stifling heat I feel amidst mosquitoes in my brother's room
when PHCN is witholding power. If Dante could typify hell in his opus I could attempt to do the same.

enilove: Repent and escape for your life.
Your disbelieve does not and will not change the truth. Why don't you just accept it and live an obedient life.

Even if it is real. People would stubbornly enter it. Rightly so, since a stubborn God endowed them with the spirit necessary to do so.

enilove: Stop de-emphasizing holy living. Jesus said be thou holy as my father in heaven is holy.

Holiness is arbitrated by humans. I think you inevitably put God in a box when you say He is holy. Holy, I understand to mean God could do anything it pleases regardless of our bent.

enilove: If there is a judgment day,what do you think d judgment will be like,bearing in mind the death of our Lord Jesus Christ?

An empathetic God, who made and knows the pains of hell, and deems it good, for unbelievers and evildoers he foreknew and made, I deem evil.

enilove: That video is to warn us all.

People still retain their intellect in hell. Thefe are some who bear its pains stoically as an example of a preacher in Mary Baxter's book shows. I think Christians ignore the fact that they expect to go to heaven whilst condemning others to hell, and forget that people have been dying (without the fear of hell) b4 the Christian concept and condition of hell was codified.

Uyi Iredia:

To be sure, by life do you mean the physical body.

not necessarily. At least what's not dead.

Kay 17: not necessarily. At least what's not dead.

Then what seperates the dead from the living ?

alexleo:

Your belief is immaterial and useless here. It is God's word that matters and not the belief and teachings of your CULT OF SATAN. Follow peace with all men? Yes I agree. But I can NEVER clap for you when you proclaim the teachings of satan. NO WAY. Whatever disagreement I have with you ends only in your false teachings. You don't understand me. Am not the type that bears grudges. I only hate lies both in bible matters and in social matters and hit at it. Have you seen me attack you on any thread you said the truth? STOP YOUR LIES FROSBEL. Come out of the cult of satan.

Beloved you are on point.False teachers are destroying christianity.That fellow believes sinners are summarily terminated and cease to exist once they touch the lake of fire.If I agree with this teaching I would've committed suicide when I encountered devastating occurances at the same time years back, since all I had to loose was to be made to cease to exist at the end.What prevented me was the fear of eternal torment that I felt awaits the act of suicide or any other sin.

alexleo:

Who cares whether you left? You cannot stand the truth that's why you kept running from one church to the other like a prosti.tute till you fianally landed in satan's cult where you are swimming in lies. And sure, you are enjoying your falsehood. Keep deceivinh yourself.

Alex I see clearly that you are powerfully anointed to defeat this fellow.Pursue him to all the threads of false teachings he presents.Remain hard and direct on him as you have been but do away with whatever that will appear to readers as insults on his person so it doesn't make him look more righteous than you.Remember also that God could recover him someday if he'll let God.

bizmahn:

Alex I see clearly that you are powerfully anointed to defeat this fellow.Pursue him to all the threads of false teachings he presents.Remain hard and direct on him as you have been but do away with whatever that will appear to readers as insults on his person so it doesn't make him look like more righteous than you.Remember also that God could recover him someday if he'll let God.

anointed ?

Uyi Iredia:

Then what seperates the dead from the living ?

I don't know. I can't really point that out other than talk about their natures.

Kay 17:

I don't know. I can't really point that out other than talk about their natures.

I suggest that it is immaterial. The 'nature' you talk about is what you percieve.

bizmahn:

Beloved you are on point.False teachers are destroying christianity.That fellow believes sinners are summarily terminated and cease to exist once they touch the lake of fire.If I agree with this teaching I would've committed suicide when I encountered devastating occurances at the same time years back, since all I had to loose was to be made to cease to exist at the end.What prevented me was the fear of eternal torment that I felt awaits the act of suicide or any other sin.

My dear, the guy is a deceiver. At first I thought he was a truth seeker but with time I discovered he is an undercover agent of satan who is operating under the guise of christianity to deceive souls by watering down God's judgment. Exactly what the serpent did in the garden of Eden when he told Eve- "thou shall NOT surely die", even when God had already told them that if they eat the evil fruit they will die. Same thing frosbel is doing here with the spirit of satan in him. What a hopeless teacher.

Uyi Iredia:

I suggest that it is immaterial. The 'nature' you talk about is what you percieve.

What is the difference btw life and death? Don't u think its a matter of what death lacks?

truthislight:

What is eternal life ?

Eternal life is what God thinks eternal life is. Do you have eternal life?

Kay 17:

What is the difference btw life and death? Don't u think its a matter of what death lacks?

That life involves the expression of 'energy' via living systems. That this 'energy' is what dead bodies lack.

^^
On the contrary energy is expressed in the inanimate also, given that energy is the ability to do work

Uyi Iredia:

It should be. He has a charming smile.



Same as mine. In a way fundamentalists will, predictably, disagree with.



Not just this section. In the whole world.



The part I wanted to answer. As I've said elsewhere deism best describes my belief state at present. A self-fulfilling prophecy perhaps. An atheist insinuated that it was a phase b4 I become atheist but I think its very unlikely (and I'm being conservative saying that). I always liked the term 'free-thought' used by atheists, very simply, I take it to mean the willingness to contemplate/create ideas - any idea. I still disagree, as I have, that there is no God. As I began to contemplate philosophy more (and I admit this was stimulated by arguments with atheists) I decided life on earth (and intelligence in man - a living thing BTW) was the best pointer there is for God. This is where evolution came in, for while there are rare instances - such as harakiri's - of atheists disbelieving evolution, most atheists defend and believe the theory. I then decided if life could be explained by natural means which I strongly doubted, then atheism would be the logical step. I started by reading Darwin's famed book. The early chapters were good enough, but when the concept of natural selection was presented there were 2 fatal flaws: the first was that it was made in spite of observed limits to variations (e.g a cabbage never possibly chemosynthesizing, or pigeons never having beaks like woodpeckers), the second was the anthropormorphism of the term, a flaw which still bedevils evolutionists till this day. On the basis of that, I considered the theory a non-starter and opted for YEC (which I have dropped) & ID (which I still believe). Of course, since they usually state that people who disbelieve it don't understand it I decided to attempt to understand technicalities, so far as I can tell the problem is the same, in fact even worse, since the theory carries the hidden conjectures that life originated by chance (non-random NS is invoked but that fails because the concept requires a living system is in place), no reverse mutations undo the novel traits that are produced and all 'favorable' mutations must survive and reproduce.

Since the element crucial to a possible atheistic belief was in my eyes, a flaw I (while being a Christian) predicted that at most I could be deist. From, at the very least, skimming (for want of time) philosophical works I decided that there are 2 fundamental opposing philosophies: the materialist - who insists only matter exists (hence no God) and the idealist - who believes in an immaterial element in the universe (hence there is a God). As with all matters concerning ideas, these philosophies have their shades of grey. I decided idealism was preferable but what could justify it and what made materialism (and hence atheism untenable). Deliberating on it made me realize that both the materialist and idealist both share the common attribute of being products of intelligence (the terms thoughts, feelings, beliefs, axioms could also describe them). In justifying idealism, I noted that without intellectual ability one COULD NOT profess to be either a materialist or idealist and, this is crucial, all matter (in themselves) lack this capacity. In the thread 'A reasonable argument against God' DeepSight called thehomer a corpse. I think this insult was meant to reinforce this point. I revert back to the crucial question of life. Creationists and ID theorists can confidently say that:

• undirected matter is limited in what it can make (montmorollite crystals, diamonds, snows etc)

• intelligence (as especially seen in humans) makes systems which simulates life (the way all living things are made from encoded DNA or RNA is some viruses) and they hardly say this,

• intelligence (thoughts, feelings, beliefs, chimeras etc) is necessarily expressed through material means.

Of course, any one (using intelligence) can argue these, either for the sake of, or because of a bias but these 3 propositions are factual. I concluded, therefore that the materialist position confutes itself because it (by definition) denies the existence of what makes it possible while using it intelligence to propose how life and indeed the universe arose. Of course, strict materialists are atheists, then atheism is also shown contradictory. An interesting thing I noted was how people sometimes misused terms. Agnosticism is in fact atheism, the only difference is the agnostic disbelieves God on the basis of limitations in knowledge. I came across a Nigerian who said he was atheist, then next said he believed in an 'Infinite Intelligence', that categorically places him as a deist. I still do think there is good in Christianity and wisdom to be gotten from the Bible, I think however that what bedevils it as theistic religions is personalizing a God who hasn't made itself (himself or herself) explicit except through what is seen in Nature. So while the search continues, I think deism best captures my thoughts for now.

Interesting trivia:

• The founder of the Foursquare Gospel Church, Aimee McPherson, was for a time - an atheist. The reason for this is she became convinced of evolution and when she questioned her pastor on it she got no cogent replies. After she received the baptism of the Holy Spirit when her future husband prayed for her she changed her mind. I think 'evolution-believing' Christians are being naïve when they ignore what both YEC's and Dawkins harp on that evolution supports and is based on a materialistic mindset fundamentally opposed to Christianity. As with, all contradictions, it is rationalized.

• I think God is, like human beings, conscious, infinite and intelligent and unlike humans, not contingent on defined physical laws for his existence or his capacity to affect. We depend on already extant material things to exist not so with God. From the above, one can see we share some qualities with God.

• Is God transcendent or immanent ? I think He could be both. It's like the question of the irresistible force against an immovable object. Let's take the former to be immaterial and the latter to be matter. Can anyone defeat the other. No (as was in a certain cartoon they both surrender). Hence, I understand God to be transcendent in that He is immaterial and immanent in that all matter originates from Him.

Forgive the long post. I just summarized 4 years of searching.

This is just simply fantastic Uyi.

Fantastic because you have/are taking the time to explore so many different flavors of life, faith, science, philosophy etc etc. I have opined many times here that in large part I think there is a lot of fact to the evolution theory...with time scientists could hash it out and iron out the "fatal flaws" you detailed. There are so many things today that are accepted that would've seemed ridiculous 1000yrs ago, and so it will be 1000yrs from now. My approach to these matters is different in the sense that the validity or legitimacy of scientific theories like evolution has - to me - no bearing on the existence of a Deity. I think we have successfully & unfortunately pitted one against the other when it shouldn't be so. Evolution simply attempts to explain how, religion/faith/philosophy deals with why. I say this as both a scientist who goes everyday to work in a Lab and a christian who serves God with all my heart. So I am quite encouraging of evolutionary research BUT not the new-age Dawkinian pseudo-scientists that are armed with an anti-God agenda.

Also when you said "I always liked the term 'free-thought' used by atheists, very simply, I take it to mean the willingness to contemplate/create ideas - any idea." Not sure why you would think christianity does not accomodate the "free-thought" idea...I find that in christianity, if properly understood and handled - gives you the very freedom to let your imagination run wild, and truth will capture, secure and seal it.

Lastly, "deist" "materialist" "ID-ist" "YEC-ist" etc etc...I would say don't be as bothered about slapping a label on yourself. You don't fit on a shelf, you're a living book. You are evolving just like many of us, allowing your beliefs to be shaped by your experiences and new knowledge. God who is omniscient looks at the heart, hidden behind the beliefs, philosophies, pain, hurt and He knows those who are His - regardless of labels.

I wish you an exciting journey as you continue to self-discover .

jayriginal:

Oh JeSoul. Arent you supposed to tell us whether the pun is intended or not? Where are your manners

Pun wasn't intended oh...but I find that I subconsiously do that many times.

plappville: Sisterly, i greet ooo, longest time. This hell fire subject dey treaten 9jas seriously ooo....many die andcome back revelationsss everywhere.

OH! my dearest Plapp! why did you abandon us now? You've been missed! way too much testosterone on this board lol. I hope you have been well and the family as well .

@Frosbel,
thankfully, what I believe on the matter is inconsequential to you or anyone else

frosbel:

The Apostolic creeds have nothing to do with the original apostles and
are a major deviation from sound doctrine.

If you imagine, during the time of the apostles Pagan Greek philosophies
such as the dual nature of MAN , the immortal soul , forbidding to
marry , denial of the resurrection or it's timing etc , pastors becoming
more distinct from the sheep like Diotrephes who John warned like to
have pre-eminence among the brethren and a host of other false teachings
were beginning to infiltrate the church and pose a big risk to sound
doctrine.


This is why Paul made this statement :

I know that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will
come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock.- Acts 20:29



James likewise said :

"Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you
about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to
contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God's holy
people." - Jude 1:3


Funny thing is Paul's prophecy came true and the falling away he
predicted came to pass after the apostles had died out. The church was
hijacked by the so called church fathers who were mostly converts from
Greek paganism and who in a bid to defend the faith brought in their
Pagan ideologies and notions totally corrupting , confusing and
mystifying the simple faith that Jesus and the apostles preached.
Doctrines like the Trinity took over 300 years to complete in it's
current state and created division, rancour and confusion in the body of
Christ. Those that rejected this heresy were killed, exiled or
ostracised.

A while later this false church that formed the Pagan Trinity morphed
into the almighty apostate church of Rome ,and of course the rest is
history, we entered the dark ages and the true light of the gospel was
hid from the people.

Then the reformation came and many of the RCC's false doctrines were
challenged and discarded , with various people forming denominations
while in the process discarding some section of the false teachings of
the apostate mother of all harlots , but unwittingly retaining some
PAGAN elements such as Trinity , eternal torment etc.

Fortunately we are now in the information age and we can carry out
extensive,intensive and prolonged research into history and the church
to dig through the layers or lies, deception and wickedness that has
held God's people in bondage through the false religion of corrupted
Christianity.


The apostate church and her daughters who still teach some of her false
doctrines, will always attack people like me who expose their
perversions and deceptions, however we will not relent in exposing them
even if it costs us all.

take it to the streets since peeps here aren't the more wiser.

and Uyi dear, you had better sort out your feelings before Death sort it out for you.


don't get me wrong, i don't wish you death, but at the end, its still a nature that can't be cheated, just saying

Kay 17: ^^
On the contrary energy is expressed in the inanimate also, given that energy is the ability to do work

Yes. It, energy is expressed in conscious and unconscious beings, animate or inanimate matter. I just think this energy is conscious and apparently very intelligent. Especially when I consider it makes me think.

princesa: and Uyi dear, you had better sort out your feelings before Death sort it out for you.

Hmmn. Why do I think this hints at 'there are no deists in foxholes' argument. People who didn't know the Christian idea of God have faced death. What makes you think I can't keep to my feelings when Death comes.

princesa: don't get me wrong, i don't wish you death, but at the end, its still a nature that can't be cheated, just saying

I know. I'm sure there's something on the other side, there's just no clear evidence for it though.

JeSoul:
This is just simply fantastic Uyi.

Thanks.

JeSoul:
Fantastic because you have/are taking the time to explore so many different flavors of life, faith, science, philosophy etc etc. I have opined many times here that in large part I think there is a lot of fact to the evolution theory...with time scientists could hash it out and iron out the "fatal flaws" you detailed. There are so many things today that are accepted that would've seemed ridiculous 1000yrs ago, and so it will be 1000yrs from now.

If by fact you mean variations within species, I'll agree. If by fact, you mean, man descended from ancestors who were apes, I'll differ. I infer you believe the theory.

JeSoul:
My approach to these matters is different in the sense that the validity or legitimacy of scientific theories like evolution has - to me - no bearing on the existence of a Deity. I think we have successfully & unfortunately pitted one against the other when it shouldn't be so. Evolution simply attempts to explain how, religion/faith/philosophy deals with why. I say this as both a scientist who goes everyday to work in a Lab and a christian who serves God with all my heart. So I am quite encouraging of evolutionary research BUT not the new-age Dawkinian pseudo-scientists that are armed with an anti-God agenda.

I think there are errancies in the NDT. One of them is that random mutations drive evolutionary change, whereas the reverse is the case. I think you should heed what the YEC's rightly discern. Evolution for many provides a justification for disbelieving in God. The only evolutionary research I would agree with is one that systematic mutations are at the heart of species adaptability.

JeSoul:
Also when you said "I always liked the term 'free-thought' used by atheists, very simply, I take it to mean the willingness to contemplate/create ideas - any idea." Not sure why you would think christianity does not accomodate the "free-thought" idea...I find that in christianity, if properly understood and handled - gives you the very freedom to let your imagination run wild, and truth will capture, secure and seal it.

I never explicitly said Christianity hindered free-thought. You can freely think in any context, but you will tend to pick elements that justify certain core beliefs e.g communism, platonism etc. This is how religions actually evolve. What I simply did as to switch to deism (if you follow me you'll find theistic elements in my belief system) I could switch to atheism but I refuse to. To be candid we all have the capacity to think in any aspect to a greater or lesser extent (hence doctors who know how to make circuits, or engineers who are accomplished businessmen)

JeSoul:
Lastly, "deist" "materialist" "ID-ist" "YEC-ist" etc etc...I would say don't be as bothered about slapping a label on yourself. You don't fit on a shelf, you're a living book. You are evolving just like many of us, allowing your beliefs to be shaped by your experiences and new knowledge. God who is omniscient looks at the heart, hidden behind the beliefs, philosophies, pain, hurt and He knows those who are His - regardless of labels.
I wish you an exciting journey as you continue to self-discover .

Agreed. Thanks.

JeSoul:
This is just simply fantastic Uyi.

Thanks.

JeSoul:
Fantastic because you have/are taking the time to explore so many different flavors of life, faith, science, philosophy etc etc. I have opined many times here that in large part I think there is a lot of fact to the evolution theory...with time scientists could hash it out and iron out the "fatal flaws" you detailed. There are so many things today that are accepted that would've seemed ridiculous 1000yrs ago, and so it will be 1000yrs from now.

If by fact you mean variations within species, I'll agree. If by fact, you mean, man descended from ancestors who were apes, I'll differ. I infer you believe the theory.

JeSoul:
My approach to these matters is different in the sense that the validity or legitimacy of scientific theories like evolution has - to me - no bearing on the existence of a Deity. I think we have successfully & unfortunately pitted one against the other when it shouldn't be so. Evolution simply attempts to explain how, religion/faith/philosophy deals with why. I say this as both a scientist who goes everyday to work in a Lab and a christian who serves God with all my heart. So I am quite encouraging of evolutionary research BUT not the new-age Dawkinian pseudo-scientists that are armed with an anti-God agenda.

I think there are errancies in the NDT. One of them is that random mutations drive evolutionary change, whereas the reverse is the case. I think you should heed what the YEC's rightly discern. Evolution for many provides a justification for disbelieving in God. The only evolutionary research I would agree with is one that systematic mutations are at the heart of species adaptability.

JeSoul:
Also when you said "I always liked the term 'free-thought' used by atheists, very simply, I take it to mean the willingness to contemplate/create ideas - any idea." Not sure why you would think christianity does not accomodate the "free-thought" idea...I find that in christianity, if properly understood and handled - gives you the very freedom to let your imagination run wild, and truth will capture, secure and seal it.

I never explicitly said Christianity hindered free-thought. You can freely think in any context, but you will tend to pick elements that justify certain core beliefs e.g communism, platonism etc. This is how religions actually evolve. What I simply did as to switch to deism (if you follow me you'll find theistic elements in my belief system) I could switch to atheism but I refuse to. To be candid we all have the capacity to think in any aspect to a greater or lesser extent (hence doctors who know how to make circuits, or engineers who are accomplished businessmen)

JeSoul:
Lastly, "deist" "materialist" "ID-ist" "YEC-ist" etc etc...I would say don't be as bothered about slapping a label on yourself. You don't fit on a shelf, you're a living book. You are evolving just like many of us, allowing your beliefs to be shaped by your experiences and new knowledge. God who is omniscient looks at the heart, hidden behind the beliefs, philosophies, pain, hurt and He knows those who are His - regardless of labels.
I wish you an exciting journey as you continue to self-discover .

Agreed. Thanks.

Uyi Iredia:

Yes. It, energy is expressed in conscious and unconscious beings, animate or inanimate matter. I just think this energy is conscious and apparently very intelligent. Especially when I consider it makes me think.

Hope you realize that you necessarily conclude that energy is life. The big question: does life actually have an origin? Note that if we accept life has an origin, we can't talk about intelligence being a cause of life.

Kay 17:

Hope you realize that you necessarily conclude that energy is life.

Yes.

Kay 17:
The big question: does life actually have an origin? Note that if we accept life has an origin, we can't talk about intelligence being a cause of life.

I agree life has an origin. I doesn't follow, as I see it, that intelligence isn't a source of life.

Uyi Iredia:

Yes.



I agree life has an origin. I doesn't follow, as I see it, that intelligence isn't a source of life.

Uyi Iredia:

Yes. It, energy is expressed in conscious and unconscious beings, animate or inanimate matter. I just think this energy is conscious and apparently very intelligent. Especially when I consider it makes me think.

1. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed

2. Energy is life

3. Life has a beginning/origin

4. Energy is intelligent

Which of these is false?

Kay 17:
1. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed

2. Energy is life

3. Life has a beginning/origin

4. Energy is intelligent

Which of these is false?

2.

Uyi we have earlier agreed that conscious beings are necessarily life. And in your post, you clearly stated that energy is conscious and you further concurred that it was life as a result.

Intelligence is an exclusive property of conscious beings. If life has an origin, then it cannot definitely be owed to intelligence.