Delafruita:
you're "falling hand".thought you said you wouldnt quote the bible.the thread was not started to explain the existence of god.its says "atheists,feel free to ask your questions".a question about santa shouldnt be too difficult to answer unless you have no sensible response

I just decided to let it roll...

And can you explain to me how they can think and make decisions on their own without a human being present to control it. For the fact that a human is present and controlling it to think and act shows that the human brain is much smarter than it.

Its a simple fact...I need not elaborate on this issue any further.

You are failing my hand...Supercomputers at NASA have been up and running for years without ANY human control...Is there someone in an ATM controlling it?

Well like I said earlier, I cannot give you a specific age of the earth. The bible its self didn't give a specific age of the earth. It (the bible) told us that many years were lost and those lost years were not recorded in the bible.

So I gave up my quest of finding the earth actual age and concentrated more on my salvation.

Therefore I would suggest that you do the same.

You are falling my hand again.....The bible clearly shows the earth to be 6,000 years haba How is that possible?

Let me share a little story with you.

A university professor challenged his students with this question. “Did God create everything that exists?” A student bravely replied, “Yes, he did!” “God created everything?” The professor asked. “Yes sir”, the student replied. The professor answered, “If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil”.

The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, “Can I ask you a question professor?” “Of course”, replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, “Professor, does cold exist?” “What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?” The students snickered at the young man’s question. The young man replied, “In fact sir, cold does not exist.

According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-4600 F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat.

“The student continued, “Professor, does darkness exist?” The professor responded, “Of course it does.” The student replied, “Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton’s prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wave lengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present.

Isn’t this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present.” Finally the young man asked the professor, “Sir, does evil exist?” Now uncertain, the professor responded, “Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man’s inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world.

These manifestations are nothing else but evil.” To this the student replied, “Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God’s love present in his heart. It’s like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.”
So I guess I've answered your question.

I have to laugh at this post seriously.... Gen 1:1-4 God worked and created things for two days in darkness before creating the sun par he created light(which you can't tell me where it came from)....so what darkness was god wandering on? This story is very wrong on various counts....Absence of cold is what? Heat and cold are all subject to temperature and me and you know that temperature is always present so you can't say whether heat or cold exist because they are all expression subject to explaining temperature conditions....So i ask again and please answer in one word who created evil?

CrazyMan:
Fine I have no sensible response about santa.

I didn't study his origin so it would be foolish if I decide to explain his origin. I would end up embarrassing myself. So bear with me on the santa issue.

WTF? Are you kidding me? You dont know santa?

WOW

mkmyers45:
You are failing my hand...Supercomputers at NASA have been up and running for years without ANY human control...Is there someone in an ATM controlling it?

You're also falling my hand...because even the so called super computers, and the ATM was actually installed by a human...its being maintained by humans. If they are as super as you claim, they whey do they still require humans to ensure that they work effectively.

mkmyers45:
You are falling my hand again.....The bible clearly shows the earth to be 6,000 years haba How is that possible?

You're also falling my hand again. If you take your time to open your bible, you would notice that it admitted that there were actually some lost years which were not recorded. The bible didn't follow the earth year by year, it only concentrated on important areas. That's why I gave my up quest on seacrhing for the earth actual age.

mkmyers45:
I have to laugh at this post seriously.... Gen 1:1-4 God worked and created things for two days in darkness before creating the sun par he created light(which you can't tell me where it came from)....so what darkness was god wandering on? This story is very wrong on various counts....Absence of cold is what? Heat and cold are all subject to temperature and me and you know that temperature is always present so you can't say whether heat or cold exist because they are all expression subject to explaining temperature conditions...

That's my scientific explanation...I decided to avoid using quotes because most people had already began to frown.

So if you need a biblical explanation on who created evil, then start another thread and I would be honored to use my bible to give you desired answers.

mkmyers45:
So i ask again and please answer in one word who created evil?

From scientific explanation, evil simply means the absence of Good.

You're also falling my hand...because even the so called super computers, and the ATM was actually installed by a human...its being maintained by humans. If they are as super as you claim, they whey do they still require humans to ensure that they work effectively.

Even humans need servicing and all.....infact they need it more than machines so? My system was once on for months...a human cannot do that can he?

You're also falling my hand again. If you take your time to open your bible, you would notice that it admitted that there were actually some lost years which were not recorded. The bible didn't follow the earth year by year, it only concentrated on important areas. That's why I gave my up quest on seacrhing for the earth actual age.

where is in the bible was this recorded? Is the genealogy of jesus not true to biblical times....Adam is not equal to Jesus?

That's my scientific explanation...I decided to avoid using quotes because most people had already began to frown.

So if you need a biblical explanation on who created evil, then start another thread and I would be honored to use my bible to give you desired answers.


From scientific explanation, evil simply means the absence of Good.

Provide the scripture here....we are discussing and i requested it

I'm still waiting

I'm not an ex-christian. No biblical quotations.

Avicenna: I'm still waiting

I'm not an ex-christian. No biblical quotations.

Avicenna: Does God exist?
If yes, why?
If no, why?

Remember, no quotations. Just sheer logic AND if you like science.

Been watching from the sidelines however let me ask: If God was proven to you logically, would you find God to be worthy of your worship?

Avicenna: I'm still waiting

I'm not an ex-christian. No biblical quotations.

im waiting too

mkmyers45:

im waiting too

Same as above: If God was proven to you logically, would you find God to be worthy of your worship?

Mr_Anony:
Same as above: If God was proven to you logically, would you find God to be worthy of your worship?

What if the proven God doesn't want worship or are you sure he does? Let me ask you a question by answering you...Can you worship nature as the logically proven God?

Mr_Anony:



Been watching from the sidelines however let me ask: If God was proven to you logically, would you find God to be worthy of your worship?

Big IF.
Since logic has not proven God, it follows that God will have to prove himself.
The kinds of omnieverything God most religions espoused do not deserve any worship. Infact, worshipping him is an unnecessary exercise.

Unless he forces me to worship him( within his power) , I surely will NOT worship that maniac.

But hey, he doesn't exist. So, the scenario will not come up.

mkmyers45:

What if the proven God doesn't want worship or are you sure he does? Let me ask you a question by answering you...Can you worship nature as the logically proven God?

Don't try to wriggle out of this. I have not said anything about the character of God or what God wants, all I have asked is if God would be worthy/deserving of your worship.
In essence all I have asked was: If it was proven to you that there exists an almighty creator would you think it the right thing to do to worship such a being?

Mr_Anony:
Don't try to wriggle out of this. I have not said anything about the character of God or what God wants, all I have asked is if God would be worthy/deserving of your worship.
In essence all I have asked was: If it was proven to you that there exists an almighty creator would you think it the right thing to do to worship such a being?

I am being very sensible by saying that it depends...does such a logically proven god deserve worship? worship to establish what? Its not a one off question...if it is then you should have answered mine...

Avicenna:

Big IF.
Since logic has not proven God, it follows that God will have to prove himself.
The kinds of omnieverything God most religions espoused do not deserve any worship. Infact, worshipping him is an unnecessary exercise.

Unless he forces me to worship him( within his power) , I surely will NOT worship that maniac.

But hey, he doesn't exist. So, the scenario will not come up.

Since you have already concluded that God does not exist and even if God did, you won't worship God. Why then do you want proof? What exactly do you want Crazyman to prove since you have already reached a foregone conclusion before even asking the question?

Since you are so assured that such a scenario will not come up, perhaps you may want to tell Crazyman exactly how you came to the conclusion logically that God cannot possibly exist.

Mr_Anony:
Same as above: If God was proven to you logically, would you find God to be worthy of your worship?

Reverence yes, with the condition that he or it is not associated in any way with the biblical god.
But worship, no way.
Worship, to me, would constitute a grave insult to the supposed maker of the universe.
I think he would be mighty pissed off at worship. Worship is about laziness, idleness, pretence and derelection of responsibility as thinking beings with a great faculty of imagination.
I would think that he would be prouder to see us exploring his ways, his blueprint and the many wonders of his infinite creation, through scientific inquiry.

That would be the ultimate homage to god, the creator of the universe.

mkmyers45:

I am being very sensible by saying that it depends...does such a logically proven god deserve worship? worship to establish what? Its not a one off question...if it is then you should have answered mine...

You are only trying to provide a safety net for yourself by saying "it depends..." so that you absolve yourself from any responsibility such proof might require of you.

The question you asked "worship to establish what?" has nothing to do with deserving.
If I said "babies deserve to be cared for" the statement implies that the mere fact that it is a baby means that it should be looked after. Questions like whether the baby specifically asked for care or not is besides the point. Also it is equally silly to say that caring for the baby is done to establish the fact that it is indeed a baby. A baby deserves to be cared for simply because it is a baby.

In the same way an almighty creator is deserving of worship simply because He is an almighty creator. The question to you was such: If it was proven to you that such an almighty creator does indeed exist, will you worship Him?

Your question about nature being proven as God is very easy to answer: Nature as we know it does not have a personality. It is just a word we use to describe the totality of our physical environment. It is just like asking if I would worship energy or matter or humanity or life e.t.c. by definition these terms are only descriptive hence it is absurd to worship them. . . .unless you are about to logically prove that Nature has a personality, a will, intents, values e.t.c.

plaetton:

Reverence yes, with the condition that he or it is not associated in any way with the biblical god.
But worship, no way.
Worship, to me, would constitute a grave insult to the supposed maker of the universe.
I think he would be mighty pissed off at worship. Worship is about laziness, idleness, pretence and derelection of responsibility as thinking beings with a great faculty of imagination.
I would think that he would be prouder to see us exploring his ways, his blueprint and the many wonders of his infinite creation, through scientific inquiry.

That would be the ultimate homage to god, the creator of the universe.

You also have already decided without any knowledge of who God is, that God can definitely not be as described by the bible. It appears to me that you already have in your head what you want God to be therefore logical proof becomes futile and wasted on you if it doesn't fit with the god of your imagination.

Secondly, you have misrepresented what worship is. "Reverence" is simply another way of saying "worship". The problem you have is in how this worship is expressed
Again here you are prescribing how God would want to be worshiped based on how you think worship ought to be conducted. This points us once again to your preconcieved god of your imagination.

Why should anyone bother providing logical proof for you if you already hold onto a "God concept" which proof must conform to for it to be valid?
It seems to me that you have already created your own god and what you are on about is that other gods don't conform to yours.

Mr_Anony:
You are only trying to provide a safety net for yourself by saying "it depends..." so that you absolve yourself from any responsibility such proof might require of you.

The question you asked "worship to establish what?" has nothing to do with deserving.
If I said "babies deserve to be cared for" the statement implies that the mere fact that it is a baby means that it should be looked after. Questions like whether the baby specifically asked for care or not is besides the point. Also it is equally silly to say that caring for the baby is done to establish the fact that it is indeed a baby. A baby deserves to be cared for simply because it is a baby.

In the same way an almighty creator is deserving of worship simply because He is an almighty creator. The question to you was such: If it was proven to you that such an almighty creator does indeed exist, will you worship Him?

Your question about nature being proven as God is very easy to answer: Nature as we know it does not have a personality. It is just a word we use to describe the totality of our physical environment. It is just like asking if I would worship energy or matter or humanity or life e.t.c. by definition these terms are only descriptive hence it is absurd to worship them. . . .unless you are about to logically prove that Nature has a personality, a will, intents, values e.t.c.

And i ask again why worship? How are you sure that a logically proven God demands worship? I am very curious to know...you seem so convinced

Asserting god-like features to match a striking personality is possible with 'Nature' and by Nature i am not solely referring to the physical...Natures reach is far wider than that...Nature can be said to have a will and can act in spontaneous manner..

There you go again. I do not have ANY GOd in my mind. I was simply trying to answer your hypothetical question on whether one would worship a god if he is proven to exists.
I was definitely not preaching my own version of god.
The reference to biblical god was to show that I would definitely not respect, not to mention worship, the biblical god, even if he is proven beyond doubt , to be the creator of the universe.
Unless, ofcourse, like crazy man just posted, that god had truly repented ans is born again.

I dont know why you have decided to start twisting things around again.

Worship, to me, would constitute a grave insult to the supposed maker of the universe.
I think he would be mighty pissed off at worship. Worship is about laziness, idleness, pretence and derelection of responsibility as thinking beings with a great faculty of imagination.
I would think that he would be prouder to see us exploring his ways, his blueprint and the many wonders of his infinite creation, through scientific inquiry.
That is what I wrote.

It seems that You certainly have preconcieved notions of what god is and isn't. Why shouldn't anyone else for that matter?

plaetton: There you go again. I do not have ANY GOd in my mind. I was simply trying to answer your hypothetical question on whether one would worship a god if he is proven to exists.
I was definitely not preaching my own version of god.
The reference to biblical god was to show that I would definitely not respect, not to mention worship, the biblical god, even if he is proven beyond doubt , to be the creator of the universe.
Unless, ofcourse, like crazy man just posted, that god had truly repented ans is born again.

I dont know why you have decided to start twisting things around again.

but indeed you have to forgive Yahweh he has repented

plaetton: There you go again. I do not have ANY GOd in my mind. I was simply trying to answer your hypothetical question on whether one would worship a god if he is proven to exists.
I was definitely not preaching my own version of god.
The reference to biblical god was to show that I would definitely not respect, not to mention worship, the biblical god, even if he is proven beyond doubt , to be the creator of the universe.
Unless, ofcourse, like crazy man just posted, that god had truly repented ans is born again.

I dont know why you have decided to start twisting things around again.

I'll leave it at a "trail" then. I won't push it any further

where is the OP?

CrazyMan:
You're also falling my hand...because even the so called super computers, and the ATM was actually installed by a human...its being maintained by humans. If they are as super as you claim, they whey do they still require humans to ensure that they work effectively.


You're also falling my hand again. If you take your time to open your bible, you would notice that it admitted that there were actually some lost years which were not recorded. The bible didn't follow the earth year by year, it only concentrated on important areas. That's why I gave my up quest on seacrhing for the earth actual age.


That's my scientific explanation...I decided to avoid using quotes because most people had already began to frown.

So if you need a biblical explanation on who created evil, then start another thread and I would be honored to use my bible to give you desired answers.


From scientific explanation, evil simply means the absence of Good.

the bible doesnt give explicit details but the bible says the earth is 6000+ years old counting from the genesis 1:2 account of creation.

mkmyers45:

And i ask again why worship? How are you sure that a logically proven God demands worship? I am very curious to know...you seem so convinced

Because God is almighty and creator of all things, He is worthy of worship.

Asserting god-like features to match a striking personality is possible with 'Nature' and by Nature i am not solely referring to the physical...Natures reach is far wider than that...Nature can be said to have a will and can act in spontaneous manner..

Interesting....You do realise that a will indicates that 'Nature' has purposes and values, would you mind telling us what they are?

Mr_Anony:
Because God is almighty and creator of all things, He is worthy of worship.

Interesting....You do realise that a will indicates that 'Nature' has purposes and values, would you mind telling us what they are?

How do you know its a he and not a them? How do you know that this all proven God wants worship? You may deem him worthy but he abhors it

A Pantheist will do better justice but the true and ultimate purpose of the cosmos has been to hold and breed life....

mkmyers45:

How do you know its a he and not a them? How do you know that this all proven God wants worship? You may deem him worthy but he abhors it

How do I know God is a "He"? that answer can only come when God has been proven.
What if God doesn't want worship? that question has nothing to do with if He deserves worship. Perhaps you don't understand what it means for one to be worthy of something.

A Pantheist will do better justice but the true and ultimate purpose of the cosmos has been to hold and breed life....

lol, interesting.
If the purpose of 'Nature' is to breed life, does this mean that if a comet struck earth or the sun died hereby sucking earth into a black hole or earth flew out of orbit etc hence destroying all life as we know it, do you want to tell me that the whole universe will either shut down or begin to create life again?

If this is so, how do you know this? How do you know that nature's purpose is to breed life?

Na whaooo. Delafruita version and also CrazyMan's version, whose version will be next....maybe Goshen360's version to challenge the Atheist on their kweshion.....una don dey wait abi?

How do I know God is a "He"? that answer can only come when God has been proven.
What if God doesn't want worship? that question has nothing to do with if He [b]deserves worship. Perhaps you don't understand what it means for one to be worthy of something.[/b]

You're making an assumption then? Chinua Achebe is worthy of a national award but he has severally refused this...so what if this proven God doesn't want worship? maybe thats why he has remained unseen

lol, interesting.
If the purpose of 'Nature' is to breed life, does this mean that if a comet struck earth or the sun died hereby sucking earth into a black hole or earth flew out of orbit etc hence destroying all life as we know it, do you want to tell me that the whole universe will either shut down or begin to create life again?

If this is so, how do you know this? How do you know that nature's purpose is to breed life?

The cosmos purpose is all-encompassing....I am very happy that you clearly made a point of life being 'as we know it'...there is life out there....but is there a replicate place for humans to thrive? maybe ....was there a place for dinasoaurs to thrive? yes ...is there now? no

Goshen360: Na whaooo. Delafruita version and also CrazyMan's version, whose version will be next....maybe Goshen360's version to challenge the Atheist on their kweshion.....una don dey wait abi?

@Mr Anony.

I will not reply you. Replying you will merely derail this thread even further.

Once Crazyman posts his reply, I will answer you.

mkmyers45: where is the OP?

Where is he?

Mr_Anony:
Since you have already concluded that God does not exist and even if God did, you won't worship God. Why then do you want proof? What exactly do you want Crazyman to prove since you have already reached a foregone conclusion before even asking the question?

Since you are so assured that such a scenario will not come up, perhaps you may want to tell Crazyman exactly how you came to the conclusion logically that God cannot possibly exist.

Seems like Crazyman is back.

I didn't say God possibly cannot exist. He DOES not exist.
Obito could not possibly be Tobi. Mr Kishi says different

I revere Pres Goodluck Jonathan. because of powers he has over me as leader of my country. I revere my father. If God exist, I will surely revere him proportionally.

Simple. There is no proof for God. Proofs usually brought forward can be accurately explained by other means.

Why I want proof? No b u talk say e dey? Abeg jooo