Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity - Religion (25) - Nairaland
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1000 NAMES, TITLES, AND ATTRIBUTES OF GOD (A-Z)WITH BIBLE VERSES / Is God A Creature Or A Creator?. / Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. (2) (3) (4)
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| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by Nobody: 11:28am On Oct 17, 2012 |
joe4christ: These verses have been explained again and again in various articles including this one, could it be that this Trinity dogma has blinded you to reading them so that you may not have a proper understanding of the true meanings. I mean , does it really matter or is it even necessary to provide evidence to people who have already made up their minds to hold onto this idol till death. I think not. When you start reading the bible and ask God for wisdom, maybe you just might begin to understand. 1 Like |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by joe4christ(m): 11:38am On Oct 17, 2012 |
frosbel: That does not answer my question Mr. Frosbel, please dont trynna dodge my question. |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by joe4christ(m): 11:40am On Oct 17, 2012 |
Brainpulse i can see u, or maybe you can do justice to the above question of mine! |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by Boomark(m): 12:33pm On Oct 17, 2012 |
joe4christ: But joe4christ, if you want to prove trinity know that that is not the type of question to use. It is just simple and not confusing. Don't worry you will certainly get your answer. |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by Nobody: 12:54pm On Oct 17, 2012 |
It is astounding to see that so many Christians have predicated their system of beliefs upon mysterious dogma, and then demand that others adopt the same method of formulating their beliefs. Implicit in this method is that God has not given us an adequate revelation of Himself in Scripture. But it is certainly preferable to have a comprehensible system of beliefs rather than one that is incomprehensible. As a general rule, comprehensibility should govern our beliefs. The mind cannot rest comfortably having accepted things it cannot understand, and without understanding it is impossible to know whether a doctrine is true or not. The introduction of the concept of mystery into Christian faith undermines the very confidence we are to have in what we espouse. |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by gbrookes02: 1:40pm On Oct 17, 2012 |
Jesus Christ is The Yahweh God Almighty of the Old Testatment. John 12:41 (English Standard Version (©2001)) "Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him." Barnes' Notes on the Bible When he saw his glory - Isaiah 6:1-10. Isaiah saw the Lord (in Hebrew, יהוה Yahweh) sitting on a throne and surrounded with the seraphim. This is perhaps the only instance in the Bible in which Yahweh is said to have been seen by man, and for this the Jews affirm that Isaiah was put to death. God had said Exodus 33:20, "No man shall see me and live;" and as Isaiah affirmed that he had seen Yahweh, the Jews, for that and other reasons, put him to death by sawing him asunder. See Introduction to Isaiah, Section 2. In the prophecy Isaiah is said expressly to have seen Yahweh John 12:1; and in John 12:5, "Mine eyes have seen the King Yahweh of hosts." By his glory is meant the manifestation of him - the Shechinah, or visible cloud that was a representation of God, and that rested over the mercy-seat. This was regarded as equivalent to seeing God, and John here expressly applies this to the Lord Jesus Christ; for he is nor affirming that the people did not believe in God, but is assigning the reason why they believed not on Jesus Christ as the Messiah. The whole discourse has respect to the Lord Jesus, and the natural construction of the passage requires us to refer it to him. John affirms that it was the glory of the Messiah that Isaiah saw, and yet Isaiah affirms that it was Yahweh; and from this the inference is irresistible that John regarded Jesus as the Yahweh whom Isaiah saw. The name Yahweh is never, in the Scriptures, applied to a man, or an angel, or to any creature. It is the unique, incommunicable name of God. So great was the reverence of the Jews for that name that they would not even pronounce it. This passage is therefore conclusive proof that Christ is equal with the Father. Spake of him - Of the Messiah. The connection requires this interpretation. Clarke's Commentary on the Bible When he saw his glory - Isaiah 6:1, etc. I saw Jehovah, said the prophet, sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphim; and one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is Jehovah, God of hosts; the whole earth shall be full of his glory! It appears evident, from this passage, that the glory which the prophet saw was the glory of Jehovah: John, therefore, saying here that it was the glory of Jesus, shows that he considered Jesus to be Jehovah. See Bishop Pearce. Two MSS. and a few versions have Θεου, and του Θεου αὑτου, the glory of God, or of his God. John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible These things said Esaias,.... Concerning the blinding and hardening of the Jews: when he saw his glory, and spake of him; when he saw, in a visionary way, the glory of the Messiah in the temple, and the angels covering their faces with their wings at the sight of him; and when he spake of him as the King, the Lord of hosts, whom he had seen, Isaiah 6:1, from whence it is clear that he had respect to the Jews in the times of the Messiah. The prophet says in Isaiah 6:1 that he "saw the Lord": the Targumist renders it, "I saw", , "the glory of Jehovah"; and in Isaiah 6:5 he says, "mine eyes have seen the King", Jehovah, Zebaot, the Lord of hosts; which the Chaldee paraphrase renders, "mine eyes have seen", , "the glory" of the Shekinah, the King of the world, the Lord of hosts. Agreeably to which our Lord says here, that he saw his glory, the glory of his majesty, the glory of his divine nature, the train of his divine perfections, filling the temple of the human nature; and he spoke of him as the true Jehovah, the Lord of hosts; and which therefore is a very clear and strong proof of the proper divinity of Christ. And it may be observed from hence, that such persons who have a true, spiritual, and saving sight of Christ, of the glory of his person, and the fulness of his grace, cannot but be speaking of him to others, either in private, or in public, as Isaiah here did, and as the church in Sol 5:10; and as the apostles of Christ, John 1:1; and indeed, should they hold their peace, the stones would cry out; such must, and will speak of his glory in his temple, Psalm 29:9. Vincent's Word Studies When (ὅτε) The best texts read ὅτι, because. His glory In the vision in the temple, Isaiah 6:1, Isaiah 6:3, Isaiah 6:5. Of Him Christ. Geneva Study Bible These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. Wesley's Notes 12:41 When he saw his glory - Christ's, Isa 6:1, and c. And it is there expressly said to be the glory of the Lord, Jehovah, the Supreme God. Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary 41. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him-a key of immense importance to the opening of Isaiah's vision (Isa 6:1-13), and all similar Old Testament representations. "The Son is the King Jehovah who rules in the Old Testament and appears to the elect, as in the New Testament THE Spirit, the invisible Minister of the Son, is the Director of the Church and the Revealer in the sanctuary of the heart" [Olshausen]. Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary 12:37-43 Observe the method of conversion implied here. Sinners are brought to see the reality of Divine things, and to have some knowledge of them. To be converted, and truly turned from sin to Christ, as their Happiness and Portion. God will heal them, will justify and sanctify them; will pardon their sins, which are as bleeding wounds, and mortify their corruptions, which are as lurking diseases. See the power of the world in smothering convictions, from regard to the applause or censure of men. Love of the praise of men, as a by-end in that which is good, will make a man a hypocrite when religion is in fashion, and credit is to be got by it; and love of the praise of men, as a base principle in that which is evil, will make a man an apostate, when religion is in disgrace, and credit is to be lost for it. http://bible.cc/john/12-41.htm The bible say Yahweh will not share His glory with another yet John say Jesus' glory was Yahweh's glory in Isaiah, so if Yahweh will not share His glory with another, and yet Jesus' glory is Yahweh's glory in Isaiah according to John, then explain how Jesus is not Yahweh in the Old Testament? |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by gbrookes02: 1:41pm On Oct 17, 2012 |
The Yahweh that Isaiah saw in the Old Testament is The Jesus Christ of the New Testament according to the apostle John, see "Isaiah saw Jesus as Yahweh (Compare John 12:37-41 with Isaiah 6:1-10)" at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zmE43MQMkQ Who Did Isaiah See? We’re going to resume our study tonight of the Trinity and going through the gospel of John. I’m not going to cover the Triumphant Entry since we’ve already done that. I’d like us instead go to another part of John 12. Greeks have come to see Jesus. When that happens, Jesus says that the time has arrived and John gives a commentary on all that happens. I recommend you read the relevant portions prior to our text starting in verse 37. 37Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: ”Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40“He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them. 41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him. Jesus has been doing miraculous signs for the people and now, even the voice of God has spoken, and the people refuse to believe. What is going on exactly? John’s commentary on what has happened comes straight out of Isaiah. Let’s look at the first passage. 1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? This passage should sound familiar. It’s Isaiah 53 which is the noted servant song that speaks about Christ and how he would be rejected as Messiah. The second passage is also a passage of rejection, but it is one that comes much earlier. This comes from Isaiah 6. It’s in verse 10, but I will quote the first five verses. 1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory.” 4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke. 5 ”Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.” Can there be any doubt that Isaiah here saw YHWH? Verse 5 should dispel any hesitancy to say that. Notice how YHWH is described as high and exalted. Is that language used elsewhere in Isaiah. YES! 13 See, my servant will act wisely he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. Where is this? Chapter 52. In fact, it’s the prelude to the servant song. The term used to describe YHWH is used to describe Christ but notice how John’s description continues. Let’s look at why he says Isaiah said these things in John 12:41. 41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him. What glory did Isaiah see? He saw the glory of YHWH. That is who anyone would think of when he asked who Isaiah saw and that’s what John wishes us to see. John 12:41 is pointing back to say that the one on the throne is Jesus Christ. Which also makes Isaiah 6 fit in with John 1:18 as no one has seen God as he is, that is, the Father, but the Son has revealed him. http://deeperwaters./2009/05/28/who-did-isaiah-see/ The bible say Yahweh will not share His glory with another yet John say Jesus' glory was Yahweh's glory in Isaiah, so if Yahweh will not share His glory with another, and yet Jesus' glory is Yahweh's glory in Isaiah according to John, then explain how Jesus is not Yahweh in the Old Testament? |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by gbrookes02: 1:41pm On Oct 17, 2012 |
gbrookes02: Trinity Proof Texts: Isaiah 6 |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by gbrookes02: 1:42pm On Oct 17, 2012 |
gbrookes02: Who Is the Angel of the Lord? (Judg 6:22-23) |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by gbrookes02: 1:46pm On Oct 17, 2012 |
Trinity Proof Texts: Isaiah 6 Isaiah 6:1: In the year of King Uzziah's death, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. Isaiah 6:8-9 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" And He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.' I. Jesus is Yahweh: A. Isaiah saw Jesus Christ (Yahweh) "In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw Yahweh sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. " Isaiah 6:1 "For my eyes have seen the King, Yahwah of hosts." Isaiah 6:5 "Then I heard the voice of Yahweh, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" " Isaiah 6:8 "These things Isaiah said because he (Isaiah) saw His (Christ's) glory, and he spoke of Him (Christ)." John 12:41 B. The context of John 12:41: "These things Isaiah said because he saw His (Christ's) glory, and he spoke of Him (Christ)." John 12:41 The section focuses on Christ being glorified, with the Glory he had before creation (Jn 17:5) and how men were to believe in Jesus as the Saviour of the world. John quotes from Isaiah several times about how men could not believe in Jesus. The "Him" in John 12:41 can only be Jesus: when Jesus was glorified v16 the Son of Man to be glorified v23 Father, glorify Your name (by glorifying Jesus) v28 they were not believing in Christ v37 Lord, who has believed our report v38 to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed v38 these things Isaiah said because he saw His (Christ's) glory, and he spoke of Him (Christ) v41 many even of the rulers believed in Him v42 Jesus cried out and said, He who believes in Me v44 He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me v45 A simple reading of the context of John 12 makes it clear that John is saying that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus Christ himself in Isaiah 6. This proves Jesus is Yahweh. C. Full context of John 12:41 proves Isaiah saw Jesus' glory. "These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him. " John 12:16 "And Jesus answered them, saying, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. " John 12:23 ""Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, 'Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour. "Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again." " John 12:27-28 "But though He (Christ) had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him (Christ). This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them." THESE THINGS ISAIAH SAID BECAUSE HE SAW HIS (CHRIST'S) GLORY, AND HE SPOKE OF HIM (CHRIST). Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him (Christ), but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him (Christ), for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God. And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. "He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. " John 12:37-45 II. Plural pronouns used of God proving the trinity: A. Three plural pronouns, (We, Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages. Remember the word God (elohim) is also plural every time it is used in the Old Testament. Gen 11:7 also includes a plural verb (confuse) which even further, through grammer reinforces the plural "elohim" and the plural pronoun US. "Our" Gen 1:26 "Us" Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8 "We" Isa 6:8 B. These are the four passages where God speaks for Himself and uses plural pronouns: "Then God [plural elohim] said, "Let Us [plural pronoun] make man in Our [plural pronoun] image, according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness" Genesis 1:26 "Then Yahweh God [plural elohim] said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us [plural pronoun], knowing good and evil" Genesis 3:22 "Come, let Us [plural pronoun] go down and there confuse [plural form of balal] their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech." Genesis 11:7 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord [plural elohim], saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us [plural pronoun]?"" Isaiah 6:8 http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-texts-isaiah6.htm The bible say Yahweh will not share His glory with another yet John say Jesus' glory was Yahweh's glory in Isaiah, so if Yahweh will not share His glory with another, and yet Jesus' glory is Yahweh's glory in Isaiah according to John, then explain how Jesus is not Yahweh in the Old Testament? Biblical Basis for Trinity THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD Deuteronomy 6:4 Isaiah 43:10 Isaiah 44:6-8 OLD TESTAMENT EVIDENCES OF THE TRINITY Genesis 1:1,26,27 Isaiah 6:1-10 Isaiah 48:12-16 Zechariah 2:10-11 (Points I & lll are not contested by those who deny the Trinity, therefore little space is given them here.) THE FATHER IS GOD I Peter 1:17 John 5:17-23 THE SON IS GOD He Is Called God Explicitly Matthew 1:23, "Emmanuel-God with us." John 1:1, "The Word was God." (Note: There is no scholarly support for the NWT rendering it "a god." For a thorough treatment of this issue request our study on John 1:1) John 5:17-23, The Son is "equal" to his Father John 8:53-59, Jesus is the "I AM" of Exodus 3:1-15 John 10:28-33, Jesus and the Father are equal John 20:28 "The Lord of me and THE GOD of me." Romans 9:5, Christ is God over all Colossians 2:9, All the fullness of deity Titus 2:13, "our Great God and Saviour." Hebrews 1:8, "Thy throne O God." I John 5:20, "The true God." He Is Described In Terms Reserved Only For God Creator of ALL Things John 1:3 Ephesians 3:9 Colossians 1:16,17 Hebrews 2:10 Revelation 3:14 The Almighty Revelation 1:8 with 21:5-7; and 22:12,13,16,20 The First and Last Revelation 1:17; 2:8; 22:13 (Compare Isaiah 44:6) The Exact Representation of The Father Hebrews 1:3 John 12:45 and 14:6-11 Isaiah 46:9 He Is Worshipped As God. (See Luke 4: Revelation 5:11-13 (Compare Revelation 4:9-11) Hebrews 1:6 O.T./N.T. Cross-Reference Proves Jesus Is God Isaiah 40:3 with John 1:23 & 3:28 Isaiah 45:23 with Philippians 2:10,11 and Romans 14:11 Isaiah 44:24 with John 1:3 Isaiah 6:1-5 with John 12:37-41 Isaiah 8:13,14 with I Peter 2:7,8 Isaiah 42:8 with John 17:5 Isaiah 60:19 with Luke 2:30-32 Psalms 102:24-27 with Hebrews 1:10-12 Psalms 45:6,7 with Hebrews 1:8,9 Psalms 23:1 with Isaiah 40:10,11 and John 10,11 I Kings 8:39 with Revelation 2:23 Joel 2:32 with Romans 10:9-13 Exodus 3:14 with John 8:58,59 Malachi 3:1 with Matthew 11:10 Exodus 19:18-21 with Hebrews 12:18-26 Zechariah 12:10 & 13:6,7 with John 19:34-37 Zechariah 14:4,5 with Matthew 24:29-31; Matthew 25:31; Jude 14,15; II Thessalonians 1:7-10; Revelation 19:11-21 Jesus Is God Made Flesh Philippians 2:5-8: Jesus "being in the form of God" (i.e., deity), did not consider it something to cling to, but emptied himself of his divine glory and perogatives, NOT his divine nature, and took UPON his divine form "the form of a servant" (i.e., humanity), in order to suffer death. John 1:1,14: "In the beginning was (eternally) the Word and the Word was with God (i.e., the Father and Holy Spirit), and the Word was God (deity)." "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." Hebrews 1:3 and 2:9-18: Jesus is the "EXACT REPRESENTATION of His (God's) VERY BEING" (NWT). No creature could possibly do that! But, Jesus set aside his infinite glory to become one of us so that he could be to us an, example in faith, the perfect sacrifice, our High Priest, Comforter, and Saviour. Who Is The "Angel Of Jehovah?" Genesis 16:7-13 Genesis 18:1,13,17,20-22,26,33; 19:24 Genesis 22:11-18 Genesis 31:11-13 Genesis 32:24-30 (compare Hosea 12:4,5) Genesis 48: 15,16 Exodus 3:1-15 (compare vs. 5 with Joshua 5: 14,15) Exodus 23:20,21 Judges 6:11-23 Note: In these passages the "Angel of Jehovah" speaks as Jehovah, is called Jehovah, does the works of Jehovah, and is worshipped by those to whom He appears. He is Jesus, the Son of God. "Angel" means "messenger" and is applied to the angelic beings, men (evangelists), and to God (see above) Answers To Common Antitrinitarian Prooftexts John 14:28 "My Father is greater than I." Just as the husband is positionally greater than the wife so the Father is greater the the Son. Both husband and wife are equally human as the Father and Son are equally divine. Colossians 1:15 "the Firstborn of all creation." "Firstborn" (Gr. Prototokos), not "first created" (Gr. "Protoktistos". Firstborn is term that means first in importance. These scriptures bear that out: Genesis 41:51,52 with Jeremiah 31:9; Deuteronomy 21:15-17; Exodus 4:22; and Job 18:13. Revelation 3:14 "the beginning of the creation of God." We derive many words such as architect, archangel, arch-rival, from the Greek word "arche" translated "beginning" in this verse. It means "origin," "source," "chief," and "ruler." Jesus is the origin of ALL, or the creator. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD He Is Called God Acts 5:3,4 Lying to the Spirit is lying to God II Corinthians 3:17 "The Lord is that Spirit." (compare this with Exodus 34:29-35) He Is Omnipotent Isaiah 40:12-14 (See Romans 11:34 and I Corinthians 2:16) He Is Omniscient I Corinthians 2:10,11 Isaiah 40: 13,14 He Is Omnipresent Psalm 139:7 He Is Eternal Hebrews 9:14 He Has The Attributes Of Personality Intellect Romans 8:27, "The MIND of the Spirit." I Corinthians 2:10-12, The Spirit "KNOWS." Will I Corinthians 12:11, "The Spirit WILLS." Emotion Ephesians 4:30, "GRIEVE" not the Spirit His Self-Cognizance Is Shown By These Actions: He Speaks Acts 8:29; 10:19; 13:2; 21:11 Revelation 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22 He Teaches Luke 12:12 John 14:26 I John 2:26,27 Says "I" Acts 10:20 If the Holy Spirit is a self-cognizant personality, and is also eternal, then He must be God, for God is the only eternal being. Conclusion "So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods, but one God." (from The Athanasian Creed) http://www.watchman.org/articles/general-topics-doctrine/biblical-basis-for-trinity/ |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by PastorKun(m): 2:05pm On Oct 17, 2012 |
@gbrookes02 Kindly stop spamming this thread with heresies |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by Jeiel: 4:20pm On Oct 17, 2012 |
ijawkid: So, where does that put Him? What does that make Him? |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by Jeiel: 5:15am On Oct 18, 2012 |
[quote author=frosbel][/quote] What did Jesus mean when He said "Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father" and "I and the Father are one"? |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by Ubenedictus(m): 10:29am On Oct 18, 2012 |
ijawkid:sorry is that a greek or hebrew lexicon, if not, u havent made a single point. Infact Jesus was created...your definition of Jesus being the ""beginning"" of the creation of God is totally wrong and against the bibles view point...your interpretation of ""ARKHE"" is fashioned after greek philosophy..this means u are dumb, where did d concept of "logos" come from? Let us now from the scriptures find out what the word ""ARKHE"" means....the bible explains itselfthat is what i said, if arche was used it refers to "source". The same with the verse from deuteronomy 21:17...hahaha, firstborn doesnt neccesaryly imply a 2nd born, but im nt suprised u are ignorant of that. U dont seek after wisdom or knowledge ur aim is to shout "u are wrong im right". But back to the main discussion..hahaha, u have succeeded in trapping urself. Hahaha, rev 21:6 God the fada calls himself the 'arche" hahahaha, accding to u, that means he was created. Next time u bring this ur adulterated explanations that dont have a place in scripture make sure those words arent used to describe the fada |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by ijawkid(m): 10:54am On Oct 18, 2012 |
Ubenedictus: hahaha, u have succeeded in trapping urself. Hahaha, rev 21:6 God the fada calls himself the 'arche" hahahaha, accding to u, that means he was created. Next time u bring this ur adulterated explanations that dont have a place in scripture make sure those words arent used to describe the fada How does the words alpha and omega mean the"" beginning of"" ?? you totally forgot we are talking about the expression ""the beginning of"".... When I tell you to always put on your thinking caps u ignore it..... I quoted sound bible verses that hit the nail on the head to show what the expressions ""firstborn of"" and ""beginning of"" means... But you would dodge them..... Now may I ask you::::: 1....Can we say the Father is the beginiing of the creation of God?? 2....Can we say the Father is the 1st born of all creation?? 3..Can we say the Father is the 1st born son of God??hebrews 1:6 says and when God brings his ""1st born"" into the world"" 4...Can we say the Father is the image of the invincible God?? I just exposed your folly...... If you can't bring out scriptures to explain what the expressions ""beginning of"" and ""1st born of"" Means then you better go hide your head in shame......... When you employ greek philosophy to explain clear verses this is what results...HERESIES.....!!!!!!! ......... I'm done arguing the trinity with you.... Besides you dodged a clear truth that angels are spirits... I'm done with you...... |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by Ubenedictus(m): 12:04pm On Oct 18, 2012 |
Boomark:very well then. I believe in reading scriptures as one unified whole and that is what i will do. 25 say "for he must reing until he has put all his enemies under his feet" the word "until" in greek doesnt imply a cessation, so Jesus wont stop reinging after d enemies are under his feet. As proof see heb1:13 is didnt say Jesus if leave d fada right hand after d enimies are under his feet. So in line with d greek i say dat vs 25 doesnt imply that Jesus will stop reigning. 26 say d last to be distroyed is death and 27 says that d fada isnt put in subjection to christ, 28 say even after all is subjected to christ that christ is still subject to d fada wu put everything under him, and God may be all in all. I wish to submit that wen the scriptures say that "GOD MAy b all in all" christ isnt exempted, read it with d entire scriptures. Dan7:14 say that d dominion of christ over all is everlasting and shall never pass away. Anyone wu say dat 1cor say d dominion of christ wont last 4ever, is a heretic wu contradict d bible, ísa9:7 say christ government shall have no end, "from dis time forth and for evermore" so ever after christ gives d kingdom to his fada christ will continue to reign supreme over creation lk 1:33 say d kingdom of christ has no end. The same word used to explain d dominion of d fada is used 4 d son col3:11 "christ is all and in all" and as i have shown that dominion will not end. Heb1:8 say the thron of christ is 4 ever, his dominion will never end. 2Pt1:11 say the kingdom of christ is "ETERNAL". So i believe that the reign where "GOD IS ALL IN ALL" doesnt in anyway excude the son. The son will alway reign with his fada even after he gives d kingdom to his fada that is true accding to rev21:22-26 d fada AND THE SON are d temple in d new heaven and earth. Not d fada alone. Even in the new heaven Jesus still sit on the throne with his father rev22:3. This is a proof why i believe the trinity, God wu is all in all isnt d fada alone, d son is all in all. The fada alone doesnt sit on d throne, the son also does. And even after the son gives d throne to the fada the son still continues to have dominion over all creation becos his kingdom is eternal, everlasting and has no end. THE SON IS SUBJECT TO THE FADA One very good point made in dat passage is the "relational subordination" of the son to the fada. If you ask me how i understand this, i will clearly explain, but the point remains that by relation d son is, has been, and even in eternity will be subordinate to the fada. And incase u have started jumping, this doesnt affect the fact that they are coequal in nature and essence. Sit at my right hand until i make your enemy you foot stool was not in His human form. He is still a subject then. Are you now surprised?no! Im not, read above i guess u are using "until" in d english sense instead of d greek. At least Ijawkid has made it clear what begotten means. He was created by the Father,it seems u and ijawkid have a problem with understanding, so Begotten mean created hahaha and Jesus is d only begotten son of d fada. U are saying "Jesus is d only created son of d fada". If begotten means created and Jesus is d only begotten (d bible says d angel werent begotten), tell me how d angels came about, how come the angel? U see ur silliness u equate begotten to created that means Jesus is d only created of d fada. So tell me hw come the angels. Begotten doesnt mean created. Next time u guys want to lie find a better lie to tell. Because begotten doesnt mean created. All of it.hahaha, were u not d one wu said begotten means created? |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by Ubenedictus(m): 12:07pm On Oct 18, 2012 |
ijawkid:hahaha, u said begotten means created so Jesus is the only created son of God abi? Hahaha what happened to the angels? Did they just drop down? |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by Nobody: 12:10pm On Oct 18, 2012 |
Ubenedictus: hahaha, u said begotten means created so Jesus is the only created son of God abi? Hahaha what happened to the angels? Did they just drop down? Is this what the Catholic Pagan Mary worshipping church taught you. I mean, if you cannot even understand what begotten means what hope have you ? |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by Ubenedictus(m): 12:40pm On Oct 18, 2012 |
ijawkid:sorry, are you blind? Did ur headache affect ur eyes? The verse the fada said "im the begining and the end" the word use was "arche", you said the word means "created" accding to you wherever arche appeared it means created so when d fada say he is d arche, does that mean he was created or are u making an exemption in ur porous and unfounded interpretation? you totally forgot we are talking about the expression ""the beginning of""....we are talking about "arche" and d fact dat u translated it as created. Ijaw answer me is d fada now created becos he is arche or are you making an exception? I quoted sound bible verses that hit the nail on the head to show what the expressions ""firstborn of"" and ""beginning of"" means...u want to dodge just tell me since to u arche means created is the fada created? Iwill answer ur "firstborn" rant later, just answer me does arche means d fada was created? the fada say "i am d arche" u said ''arche equals created" and i ask u is d fada creatd or are u making an execption? I just exposed your folly......you just exposed ur folly now tell me since "arche" equals created is the fada created? If you can't bring out scriptures to explain what the expressions ""beginning of"" and ""1st born of""i just brought scripture to explain ur rant about "arche" u said it means created i said it implies "source" so wen d fada says "im d begining..." he means im d source and wen christ is call in dat same book (rev) d "arche of creation" it means he is d source of creation. U implied that arche is "effect" so wen d bible says "arche of creation" u interprete is as it means he was created. Now i ask u d fada is also "d arche" does that mean he was also created? Or does ur interpretation have execption. When you employ greek philosophy to explain clear verses this is what results...HERESIES.....!!!!!!!hahaha, u said u didnt use philosophy and arche means created and the bible says d fada is "arche". Who is the heretic? Let everyone judge wu is d heretic? I'm done arguing the trinity with you....actually wen i came just now this is what i wanted to write. But i saw ur stupid interpretation i just couldnt help but show how u interpretation disgrace u. Besides you dodged a clear truth that angels are spirits...hahaha, on earth u have, cow flesh, dog flesh cat flesh and all sorts of flesh even human flesh, does that mean d animals have human nature? D angels are spirit, after my death i will b a spirit, demons are also spirits alas evil spirits and God is spirit does that mean that d created, finite nature of d angels and demons is thesame as d uncreated and infinite nature of God? Just d way dat having flesh doesnt make animal posses human nature so also been spirits donot qualify the angels and demons to have the nature of God. Only christ Jesus is said to have the fullness of that nature. |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by ijawkid(m): 1:05pm On Oct 18, 2012 |
Ubenedictus: sorry, are you blind? Did ur headache affect ur eyes? The verse the fada said "im the begining and the end" the word use was "arche", you said the word means "created" accding to you wherever arche appeared it means created so when d fada say he is d arche, does that mean he was created or are u making an exemption in ur porous and unfounded interpretation? Shut up and listen...... Answer these questions... 1...Can we say that the Father is the beginning of the creation of God?? Did the Father say he ""is the beginning of the creation of God""?? U haven't answered that,your focusing on the word beginning alone....you have still not started thinking........ Till you answer the very question I'm asking you will always be deluded.... ""BEGINNING of"".... That's what we are considering........ If you are blind to see that then na you sabi....... And again all heavenly beings are spirits.....the more you try to run away from the fact the more you keep chasing shadows...... we know as humans that we are all flesh and blood.... but then we have different types of humans.... Fat,slim,muscular, etc.... But we are all flesh blood... The basics is ::::all persons in heaven are spirits...... And please open a scripture where it says the Father is the ""beginning of"" Gods creation.... If you can't open it you better go hide your mary worshipping face .......... |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by ijawkid(m): 1:59pm On Oct 18, 2012 |
@ubenidictus...............when you are done with all your dodgings and acrobatics come back to tell me if the ,,,,;;;; 1:::the Father can be called or is called the 1st born of all creation or the 1st born of God?? 2:::if the Father can also be called or be called the ""beginning of"" the creation of God:::.... If you cant then end this discussion.... |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by Boomark(m): 5:12pm On Oct 18, 2012 |
Ubenedictus: very well then. I believe in reading scriptures as one unified whole and that is what i will do. TWISTER! What is the meaning of until in greek b4 they translate it to English. God is all in all over all that He heads. Christ and man too to all they head. By that time, Christ should have reconciled everything back to our God so that he will be all in all. Co-equality is what you can never prove in this world. Once one is subject to the other. No matter how you twist it. no! Im not, read above i guess u are using "until" in d english sense instead of d greek. please tell us what begotten means in Greek b4 they translate it to english. What i noticed is that may be you want to become rev father and we are trying to chatter your childhood dream. Therefore you say any thing just to keep your dream alive. |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by Ubenedictus(m): 5:35pm On Oct 18, 2012 |
ijawkid:did u interprete d sentence "beging of creatn of Gd"? No u only interpreted d word bgining and u said it implys a creature, are u denying u said dat? U haven't answered that,your focusing on the word beginning alone....you have still not started thinking........another lie u only translated d word 'bging' and u said it mean creature, is d fada a creature? If you are blind to see that then na you sabi.......amimals all have flesh and blood dat doesnt mean animals are humans does it? The basics is ::::all persons in heaven are spirits......and dat doesnt make dem possesor of d infinite nature of God. And please open a scripture where it says the Father is the ""beginning of"" Gods creation....u are simply dodging, just answer my question u didnt interprete "begining of" in greek, did u? No! U didnt. U interprete only "begining" and u said it implies that Jesus is a creature. The same word is used by d fada, answer me does it also mean that d fada is a creature or are u making an exception? What u wrote above is nonesense |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by Ubenedictus(m): 5:44pm On Oct 18, 2012 |
Boomark:what did i twist? Did d son stop sitting with his fada? Answer me! God is all in all over all that He heads. Christ and man too to all they head. By that time, Christ should have reconciled everything back to our God so that he will be all in all.my point is dat d dominion of christ has no end. Can u fault that? Co-equality is what you can never prove in this world. Once one is subject to the other. No matter how you twist it.it is sumtin i have proved again and again, bt u have eyes nd u dnt see please tell us what begotten means in Greek b4 they translate it to english.simply to born, to sire a child, to bring him forth from ur substance. In d literal sense it doesnt mean to create. My dad didnt create me he sire me, unless u wish to interprete it with biology. What i noticed is that may be you want to become rev father and we are trying to chatter your childhood dream. Therefore you say any thing just to keep your dream alive.hahaha, and u just luv keeping ur own opinions even wen it contradicts d word of God. |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by ijawkid(m): 5:49pm On Oct 18, 2012 |
Ubenedictus: did u interprete d sentence "beging of creatn of Gd"? No u only interpreted d word bgining and u said it implys a creature, are u denying u said dat? oh now i see why you are confused.... My definition was on ""arkhe of"" ....not just arkhe alone.... Oya back to business.... The point is Jesus is the ""beginning of"" of the creation of God.... "beginning of" is the point i'm bringing out..... And ofcus animals are flesh and blood...arent they?? Both we and animals are souls...flesh and blood...abi animals na flesh and water?? All persons in heaven are spirits....there is no dodging this bro..... All the scriptures i quoted as my basis for this discussion used the expression ""beginning of"":::: read the verses i quoted from genesis and deuteronomy...... It seems u've been playing blind So I'll ask the same questions again....and this time listen well :::: 1,,..Can the Father also be called the ""beginning of"" the creation of God?? 2...Can the Father be called the 1st born of all creation?? 3...Can the Father be called the 1st born of God?? Start answering with scriptures...... |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by Ubenedictus(m): 6:30pm On Oct 18, 2012 |
http://em.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arche the bible says that all things were created by christ, how can he wu created ALL thing be created? Did he create himself? My bible say he is d arche of God's creation, and i believe, he is the source of creation. |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by Ubenedictus(m): 6:52pm On Oct 18, 2012 |
ijawkid:is "arkhe 'of'" a greek phase? Since wen did "of" become a greek word? The point is Jesus is the ""beginning of"" of the creation of God....wen interpreted that simply mean Jesus is the source of Gods creation, he is the source. That is why d bible says "by him all things are created" "beginning of" is the point i'm bringing out.....does that make animals human? All persons in heaven are spirits....there is no dodging this bro.....sorry, u hv been d person playing blind, i cant find any scholar that interprete arche as created. Where is ur source? So I'll ask the same questions again....and this time listen well ::::the fada is also source of creation so yes that is why he says "im the bgining..." 2...Can the Father be called the 1st born of all creation??if by "firstborn" preeminence is meant then yes the fada can b called the "firstborn of creation" 3...Can the Father be called the 1st born of God??no! Because d fada wasnt begotten, just d was u cant call d son "unbegotten" u cant call d fada "begotten" Start answering with scriptures......u didnt ask questions like "does scripture call d fada___? U asked "cam d fada be called___? And i answered u accding. D question didnt need passages. |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by ijawkid(m): 7:20pm On Oct 18, 2012 |
Ubenedictus: is "arkhe 'of'" a greek phase? Since wen did "of" become a greek word? Your definition of first born doesn't ryhme with all the definitions and meanings of ""first born"" when applied to living beings.... And mind you it was through Jesus all other things were created(with the Father excluded who is the source of life) I just quoted scriptures that used the expression ""beginning of"" when referenced to living beings.... Reuben was called the ""beginning of"" the strength and power of jacob....and also the 1st born of Jacob....... Jesus is called the first born son of God..... The truth is staring right @ you...... I want you to compare scriptures and see the truth.....not running away from truths...... That's all I've done....you do the same... The reason why I asked::: ""can the Father be called" is because He(the Father) can never be called such titles as ""1st born"" or ""the beginning of the creation of God"".... Its an impossibilty..... If you want to dare the scriptures you can start quoting to counter my questions..... Jesus had a beginning .........he is the beginning of Gods creation.....and Gods 1st born.... If you can apply those titles to the Father then we can start talking.... And on the animal issue....::::::::: Animals and humans are both flesh and blood...that's my basic point.....we are all living souls....... And so I stand on my point that all living beings in heaven are spirits..... |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by ijawkid(m): 7:26pm On Oct 18, 2012 |
Ubenedictus: http://em.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arche the bible says that all things were created by christ, how can he wu created ALL thing be created? Did he create himself? My bible say he is d arche of God's creation, and i believe, he is the source of creation. All(other) things were created through Christ........ and your bible explains what being the arkhe of some else's work means... That is what you have been running away from.... Jesus is the beginning of Gods creative works..... The truth is right in front of you...... I think 1 corinthians 8:5-6 would solve your problem... |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by Boomark(m): 7:54pm On Oct 18, 2012 |
Ubenedictus: what did i twist? Did d son stop sitting with his fada? Answer me! What is the meaning of "until" in Greek? If i know what 'until' means i will now know whether He will stop sitting with the Father. my point is dat d dominion of christ has no end. Can u fault that? No! His dominion over us has no end while He is subject to the Father and the Father remains all in all(no exceptions). Can you fault that? it is sumtin i have proved again and again, bt u have eyes nd u dnt see Good. Out of the Fathers substance He came be. Just like out your fathers substance you came to be. If you want, sumersault the meaning it must click. hahaha, and u just luv keeping ur own opinions even wen it contradicts d word of God. everything trinititous is against the word of God. |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by Ubenedictus(m): 7:58pm On Oct 18, 2012 |
ijawkid:since wen does d word all mean "other"? Liar! Try again |
| Re: Dilemma : Is GOD a Trinity by ijawkid(m): 8:12pm On Oct 18, 2012 |
Ubenedictus: since wen does d word all mean "other"? Liar! Try again You should be asking why I put"" other"" na.... The answers have been staring right @ you..... Jesus is the 1st born of God....... Jesus is the 1st of Gods creative works..... Let's read 1 corinthians 8:6 New Living Translation (©2007) But we know that there is only one God, the Father, ""who created everything"", and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and ""through"" whom we have been given life. ...... Let me bring out some pertinent points... 1....1 .God who created everything(including Jesus)... 2....Jesus through whom God created everything(excluding Christ himself who God created 1st).... ........... I had quoted a scripture in John. Which shows God is the source and cause of Jesus' life.... John 6:57...... New Living Translation (©2007) I live because of the living Father who sent me; in the same way, anyone who feeds on me will live because of me. God is the source of Jesus' life....Jesus exists and live because of God the Father..... The minute u realize this truth the better for you.... That is Jesus speaking there..... |
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