JeSoul: ^But what about the people that were sitting down in their own homes minding their business? (to echo Chris' point)

Didn't I already answer this? JeSoul, my sister, no need to make it look like I condone the murders and r.a'pes. I do not. I said that if he hadn't been out so late at night in Lagos, there is a probability those goons would never have got their operation underway at all. The whole thing happened to him because he indulged a false sense of security, false because of the social, economic and political realities of the city he was in.

Logicboy03:

lies.......you said

Man, you're wonderful o. How does that quote make anything I said a lie? Can you really not see the connection between that quote and what I said my point was? Geez!

Ihedinobi:

I think you might have completely misunderstood me. I was not at all implying that it is not right to expect and demand right behavior and proper conduct from human beings wherever they are. I was saying that even such an expectation must be balanced with the correct appreciation of the obtaining realities.

For instance, would you roll up to a grocery store in a gang-infested ghetto in New York and leave your car unlocked just because you can do it in, say, Beverly Hills? Or would you take a walk at night in an alley right there in the US known for its attraction for r.ap.i.sts, especially without a means of securing your safety first? And these because there's a basic and fundamental social ideal of human behavior that is universal?

I'm imagining that you'll agree with me that my questions are rhetorical. You couldn't do such things in the States for such a reason. You'd be considered mentally imbalanced or stu.pid, I think. It's the same with the issue. Granted Nigeria should not be a jungle, but it sure as nails is. Because it is, while every reasonable person with Love in their heart is working to fix the situation, such a person will also respect the realities on ground. That means that any day I come over to the States, you could come along with me for a late-night drive but there's no chance on earth I'm ever gonna spin my wheels after 10pm on the streets of Lagos if I can do anything about it until I'm sure that the Nigerian policeman on the streets has had his head fixed.

In this case, it would seem that I'm the one being realistic rather than you, wouldn't you say?

A little but I think I get the main gist of your position - "in naija it is what it is so act accordingly" abi?

I totally understand and concur with recognizing where you are - and then adjusting your behavior to protect yourself. That is reasonable. What is not reasonable is that it seems to be the norm rather than the exception - and that you appear almost non-chalantly resigned to this reality is....I dunno, not cool & not inspiring.

I stayed out late ~12am one night with friends in this very same area and my dad was freaking out when I returned. I now see how foolish I was - to have a misplaced expectation of not being invaded at my girl's house and being robbed & ra.ped. I know you don't condone the evil, but the way you articulate your position leaves a lot to be desired sir.

Ihedinobi:

Didn't I already answer this? JeSoul, my sister, no need to make it look like I condone the murders and r.a'pes. I do not. I said that if he hadn't been out so late at night in Lagos, there is a probability those goons would never have got their operation underway at all. The whole thing happened to him because he indulged a false sense of security, false because of the social, economic and political realities of the city he was in.

You cant avoid staying out late if you are a working memeber of society. There would be time that you have to be out late at night

Even my parents who are security conscious have to be out late at night. There are times where they would have to help friends with an emergency in Victoria Island late in the night. There are times when business meetings have to run late in the night due to some unrealistic deadlines put forward.

Logicboy03:


Ihedinobi has never been someone who is practical. Studying under Anony can only carry you so far

Damn! Maybe I should really get hard on you after all. What's wrong with your brain, man? Do you really have so much difficulty comprehending simple things?

Basically, no Deep Sight or some other poor sod on the streets of Lagos about midnight means no wheels for those guys unless they brought theirs along, which is dangerous if the police were to get serious with finding them. No wheels means no movement. No movement means they can't get to those people's homes in the first place. No getting to them means no robbing or r'aping them. Even could they get there, lack of wheels means slow-to-impossible getaway.

All that means that the availability of Deep Sight's ride was great facility for them.

As for them picking that part of Lagos, it's primarily because, like I said, the upper classes slowly lose touch with the realities of Nigeria and get careless with their "it shouldn't be so" mentality. Because of this they're easier for such criminals to go for. Also considering the firepower I'm under the impression they had, they couldn't very well have gone for Ajegunle, could they?

JeSoul: A little but I think I get the main gist of your position - "in naija it is what it is so act accordingly" abi?

I totally understand and concur with recognizing where you are - and then adjusting your behavior to protect yourself. That is reasonable. What is not reasonable is that it seems to be the norm rather than the exception - and that you appear almost non-chalantly resigned to this reality is....I dunno, not cool & not inspiring.

I stayed out late ~12am one night with friends in this very same area and my dad was freaking out when I returned. I now see how foolish I was - to have a misplaced expectation of not being invaded at my girl's house and being robbed & ra.ped. I know you don't condone the evil, but the way you articulate your position leaves a lot to be desired sir.

Sis, I need you to deal with one reality: I truly hate this current reality, which means I love its opposite. I wouldn't hate it if it were not there to hate in the first place. I have deliberately committed the rest of my life to producing solutions to these myriad posers.

But I'm no fool. I, before anything else, have come to terms with the fact that the situation is bad (which is what you've been so vehement about, no?). Because I have, I'm working to fix it.

I don't think there's anything I'm leaving out in my position on the issue. You feel the way you feel because you are still quite naive (sorry, pls I just can't figure out a better way to put it) about Nigeria, at least.

Logicboy03:

You cant avoid staying out late if you are a working memeber of society. There would be time that you have to be out late at night

Even my parents who are security conscious have to be out late at night. There are times where they would have to help friends with an emergency in Victoria Island late in the night. There are times when business meetings have to run late in the night due to some unrealistic deadlines put forward.

Perhaps one can't help it. That's one thing. I myself have been on Lagos streets (walked from Cele express to Papa Ajao, Mushin) past midnight on at least one occasion. It was beyond my control. Situations like that happen. Do you sense a consciousness for security in Deep Sight's story? That's the clincher.

Ihedinobi:

Damn! Maybe I should really get hard on you after all. What's wrong with your brain, man? Do you really have so much difficulty comprehending simple things?

Basically, no Deep Sight or some other poor sod on the streets of Lagos about midnight means no wheels for those guys unless they brought theirs along, which is dangerous if the police were to get serious with finding them. No wheels means no movement. No movement means they can't get to those people's homes in the first place. No getting to them means no robbing or r'aping them. Even could they get there, lack of wheels means slow-to-impossible getaway.

All that means that the availability of Deep Sight's ride was great facility for them.

As for them picking that part of Lagos, it's primarily because, like I said, the upper classes slowly lose touch with the realities of Nigeria and get careless with their "it shouldn't be so" mentality. Because of this they're easier for such criminals to go for. Also considering the firepower I'm under the impression they had, they couldn't very well have gone for Ajegunle, could they?

1) First Epic fail; So it is better to walk around in a suit in the midnite than drive abi? Maybe Deepsight can outrun a bullet

2) Second Epic Fail; Who really expects crime to happen in an estate in Lagos? Estates are the hardest places to rob in Lagos. First the main security then you have to contend with the internal security of each house in the estate. Neighbours can also notify other neighbours about crime in progress.


3)You cant just say that rich people are not security conscious. They are targets but you should know that one is more careful whne he has something to lose

Ihedinobi:

Perhaps one can't help it. That's one thing. I myself have been on Lagos streets (walked from Cele express to Papa Ajao, Mushin) past midnight on at least one occasion. It was beyond my control. Situations like that happen. Do you sense a consciousness for security in Deep Sight's story? That's the clincher.

Just sharrap. You have been debunked.


No be only sense of security, na sense of maiguard.


Deepsight drove somewhere and got robbed. It is not like he parked his car with the keys in ignition and advertised it.

^^ Outside of philosophical debates, I have come to hope for even a small shade of sense in your reasoning on other issues, but now you're making me rethink such a hope.

Do you really believe that your penultimate post has any place in this discussion? What's with debunking me? What do you think you're doing? Geez! Man!

Ihedinobi: ^^ Outside of philosophical debates, I have come to hope for even a small shade of sense in your reasoning on other issues, but now you're making me rethink such a hope.

Do you really believe that your penultimate post has any place in this discussion? What's with debunking me? What do you think you're doing? Geez! Man!

To be honest, i am a better abuser than debater. That, I can not deny. I am easily frustrated when people can not see basic common sense.


Forgive me, if I start mocking you once you start straying off a logical path into nonsensical statements.

Logicboy03:



1) First Epic fail; So it is better to walk around in a suit in the midnite than drive abi? Maybe Deepsight can outrun a bullet

2) Second Epic Fail; Who really expects crime to happen in an estate in Lagos? Estates are the hardest places to rob in Lagos. First the main security then you have to contend with the internal security of each house in the estate. Neighbours can also notify other neighbours about crime in progress.


3)You cant just say that rich people are not security conscious. They are targets but you should know that one is more careful whne he has something to lose

You really need some real education, dude.

When you read Deep Sight's story, as you evidently haven't done, you'll realize they came prepared for that security you're yapping about.

Here in Aba where you won't find many of such wealth as those estates represent, the streets still empty by 9pm. We haven't had rampages like we used to have for months at a time in some time now, but nobody is eager to risk it.

Imagine that we were richer but still conscious of such possibilities, most of us would always pack a piece moving around. It's just that with increased acquaintance with national conditions other than Nigeria's, people tend to become rather silly and quite incredibly unrealistic in their approach to Nigeria's problems.

Logicboy03:



To be honest, i am a better abuser than debater. That, I can not deny. I am easily frustrated when people can not see basic common sense.


Forgive me, if I start mocking you once you start straying off a logical path into nonsensical statements.

I already know you're not much good with arguments, man But it has less to do with impatience with "nonsensical statements" than with very poor ability to reason through issues.

You're too eager to win. So you don't learn. And you don't pay enough attention to maintain coherence. You've got basic thinking upside down mostly. It's not good for discussion.

Ihedinobi:

I already know you're not much good with arguments, man But it has less to do with impatience with "nonsensical statements" than with very poor ability to reason through issues.

You're too eager to win. So you don't learn. And you don't pay enough attention to maintain coherence. You've got basic thinking upside down mostly. It's not good for discussion.

Yes, I'm too eager to win arguments. But it doesnt mean that I dont pay attention.


You see, i dont like giving christians any chance to spread their fairytales on nairaland. Every argument I win, god dies in the heart of a religionist a little bit. Every argument I lose gives christians the confidence to believe that their fairytales are true.


My win ratio is 99 to 1.


I lose very few arguments to christians/theists. Anony roped me in a trap once but that was once in a lot of arguments.

Ihedinobi:

You really need some real education, dude.

When you read Deep Sight's story, as you evidently haven't done, you'll realize they came prepared for that security you're yapping about.

Here in Aba where you won't find many of such wealth as those estates represent, the streets still empty by 9pm. We haven't had rampages like we used to have for months at a time in some time now, but nobody is eager to risk it.

Imagine that we were richer but still conscious of such possibilities, most of us would always pack a piece moving around. It's just that with increased acquaintance with national conditions other than Nigeria's, people tend to become rather silly and quite incredibly unrealistic in their approach to Nigeria's problems.

Aba and Lagos are very different.

Logicboy03:


Yes, I'm too eager to win arguments. But it doesnt mean that I dont pay attention.


You see, i dont like giving christians any chance to spread their fairytales on nairaland. Every argument I win, god dies in the heart of a religionist a little bit. Every argument I lose gives christians the confidence to believe that their fairytales are true.


My win ratio is 99 to 1.


I lose very few arguments to christians/theists. Anony roped me in a trap once but that was once in a lot of arguments.

@bolded, you're kidding, right?

Because you're too eager to win, you do not pay attention. That's why I stopped engaging you. You're way too easy to beat. Wiegraf is the only other guy that gave me anything close to a real challenge, but he was further confirmation of what happens when someone argues from an assumption that his position infallible. Arguing from such an assumption renders your position precarious and tedious to defend.

That's what your problem is, my friend.

Logicboy03:



Aba and Lagos are very different.

Funny. Can you say how? You need not though, it's not important. However, this is an example of a struggling position.

Ihedinobi:

@bolded, you're kidding, right?

Because you're too eager to win, you do not pay attention. That's why I stopped engaging you. You're way too easy to beat. Wiegraf is the only other guy that gave me anything close to a real challenge, but he was further confirmation of what happens when someone argues from an assumption that his position infallible. Arguing from such an assumption renders your position precarious and tedious to defend.

That's what your problem is, my friend.

Okay, then how can you explain this thread- (in which the op is deeper than anything you have written here) in which I am wiping the floor with Anony's arguments.


https://www.nairaland.com/1104194/evolutionary-basis-morality-lesson-christians#12993029

Ihedinobi:

Funny. Can you say how? You need not though, it's not important. However, this is an example of a struggling position.

The very fact that one is far more commercial than the other? The fact that one is the commercial capital of Nigeria?

The fact that I have more swag than you as a lagos boy?

Logicboy03:


The very fact that one is far more commercial than the other? The fact that one is the commercial capital of Nigeria?

The fact that I have more swag than you as a lagos boy?

Perhaps you should google Aba.

Logicboy03:


Okay, then how can you explain this thread- (in which the op is deeper than anything you have written here) in which I am wiping the floor with Anony's arguments.


https://www.nairaland.com/1104194/evolutionary-basis-morality-lesson-christians#12993029

I still mean to check that thread out. Won't be surprised if it turns out to be a particularly grand epic fail for you.

Ihedinobi:

Perhaps you should google Aba.

^^^This is a struggling argument

Logicboy03:

^^^This is a struggling argument

Actually I'm just enjoying a discussion. We're done with the Deep Sight issue. As far as that is concerned, I'm not at all drawing parallels between the two cities. I mentioned Aba as a further example of the Nigerian situation. When I did, I was already quite done with Deep Sight's issue.

Ihedinobi:

Actually I'm just enjoying a discussion. We're done with the Deep Sight issue. As far as that is concerned, I'm not at all drawing parallels between the two cities. I mentioned Aba as a further example of the Nigerian situation. When I did, I was already quite done with Deep Sight's issue.

no probs.


Anony is taking some intellectual hammering on that thread. You can be his back up!

JeSoul: . . . .

---

On another subject - I find myself "understanding" (not completely shifted over though) your opinion on that child baptism thread. Its funny. Somethings have to experienced to be understood - and you were 'kind' enough not to rub that in my face :: appreciated!

I guess you won't be surprised to hear that for a few weeks now I've been looking for an appropriate opening to ask if you had 'thought again' about that "issue".

My greetings to all and especially the special one.

Logicboy03:



no probs.


Anony is taking some intellectual hammering on that thread. You can be his back up!

Lol @bolded. I seriously doubt that.

Ihedinobi:

Lol @bolded. I seriously doubt that.

Is that you believe in Anony too much or that you think that I am intellectually bankrupt?

JeSoul:
Hehe...my interest is unfortunately subject to my cerebral weather of the day - and sometimes it rains for days.

Ah, I know that climate well. My sympathies.

Lol. At this rate of multiplication there'll be 3 of you by the end of the year

Laye! Wait make I fast finish.

Yes oh, Haiti still exists. And if you see some of the things that go on in that country Nigeria will seem like paradise. That is why I kept insisting that the word "suffering" is very relative & subjective. Which is why many people who 'run' abroad find themselves 'running' back home after finding that the grass is not always greener.

I know about this. I used to have a very bad case of abroad fever. But I slowly came to wondering just how being in the West was really gonna help me. That was before Father worked on me and I fell crazy in love with Nigeria.

Anyhow, I think that my point was that each country has to be evaluated, in a sense, against its own self. But I'm having some difficulty recalling where we came from to this point.

Ehen now, what am I your sister for?

Yesoooooo!!!!!!!!!

You're right here and also wrong. Its true many of us have 'blended' well into foreign lands - but assimilation into another culture does not prevent you from still carrying a vested interest in homeland - albeit an emotional interest. Or else I wouldn't have bothered visiting naija now. I could've spent my 1month off the coast of Spain in peace & sunshine. And it was a green passport I used to enter the country (the wahala I went thru to get it ehn is another story )

I totally agree, but I think you missed my point which was that you guys get so Westernized that you end up seeing Nigeria through the eyes of, perhaps benevolent, strangers.

About the "practical realites" aspect - again I defer to you because you live there. But I will insist I have known what these realities are - and that they are not a good enough excuse for much of the decay in the society.

They're not an excuse at all. They're the decay itself.

You're taking style to yab me again ehn? lol. Issall good. I have never been hesitant to divulge my country of origin even when it was an inconvenient truth. Nigerians have a terrible reputation all over the world.

I feel your pain, sis I've heard enough about it to want to annihilate all the corruption in Nigeria even if I have to do it alone and spend the last drop of my blood doing so.

Okay cool. I'm glad you have your hand to the plough and are pushing forward - its more than I am doing or plan to do. My own ambassadorship is casual & when the opportunity presents - but it is always resolute in conviction.

Good. You need not be me, sis. We all have different posts to man. And we're exactly suited to them.

Logicboy03:

Is that you believe in Anony too much or that you think that I am intellectually bankrupt?

Something of both, I think

Ihedinobi:

Something of both, I think

I knew that your beliefs were not based on relaity

Logicboy03:


I knew that your beliefs were not based on relaity

How? Se na because their logic pass you?

Ihedinobi,
I did not want to answer you on the deep sight issue but just incase you are thinking you made sense, let me tell you why I still think it was in bad taste andhow you lack a fundamental understanding of lagos and Nigeria.

First and foremost the rich people in Nigeria especially lagos are the most security conscious people. The very rich have bullet proof cars and some have gun slinging mobile policemen on standby. Your asssertion that because he is upper class society which makes him unconcerned with security issues is factually basless. Victoria Island is as safe as it can get in lagos, there are times when you have to go out late to do something like take your sister Jesoul to that christian night club at oriental hotel.
If not him then maybe they would get someone else, and those people who jejedly stayed in their houses still get robbed, your argument folds completely on itself.


Finally how does all this spell hope?
Walks away shaking my head.

Chrisbenogor: Ihedinobi,
I did not want to answer you on the deep sight issue but just incase you are thinking you made sense, let me tell you why I still think it was in bad taste andhow you lack a fundamental understanding of lagos and Nigeria.

First and foremost the rich people in Nigeria especially lagos are the most security conscious people. The very rich have bullet proof cars and some have gun slinging mobile policemen on standby. Your asssertion that because he is upper class society which makes him unconcerned with security issues is factually basless. Victoria Island is as safe as it can get in lagos, there are times when you have to go out late to do something like take your sister Jesoul to that christian night club at oriental hotel.
If not him then maybe they would get someone else, and those people who jejedly stayed in their houses still get robbed, your argument folds completely on itself.


Finally how does all this spell hope?
Walks away shaking my head.

There's such a thing as a Christian night club? And in a hotel in Lagos? Now that's something I gotta see!

You know, I think you got my arguments a bit twisted and you didn't quite account for its entirety.

I've considered trying to untangle the confusions in your representation of my take on the matter and have even tried. It's really not a cool job. So now I've highlighted the parts I have trouble with.

It's easy to think that the green follows from the red, but does it really? Not necessarily. The same thing that has you thinking that the rich are the most security conscious is the thing I say that makes them careless. If I were a criminal, targeting the rich would be more work and would involve greater risk, but it would not be impossible and the rewards would certainly more attractive. Also, it would be easier because they would actually be more careless than people who have to ride around in cars that are not bullet-proof and cannot afford an armed private guard. Being security-conscious is more than building an impregnable (in-ya-mind tinz) vault around oneself.

The blue. I didn't quite make this assertion. I mentioned the upper classes as a psychology. Consider that night clubbing is cool and probably very safe in more developed countries. People return home between midnight and four a.m. without issues. Here in Nigeria, it is still done, but, as far as I know, by daredevils. These daredevils are not limited to the upper classes but the feeling of safety in the act (that is, night movement) is a psychology peculiar to the upper classes and "westernized" Nigerians. I pointed that out to give a possible reason for which the whole thing surprised him. Any other Nigerian in touch with the realities of our country would not have been surprised.

The purple. Apparently, being in Lagos, Nigeria is a severe handicap for Victoria Island safety-wise.

The brown. This is where you completely lost my argument. This part indicates that you think I was blaming Deep Sight for his misfortune. That's why you were upset enough to ignore my arguments and then, more likely than not, misrepresent them due to misunderstanding. I do not blame him. I am only pointing out that he had the wrong score of Nigeria. If he hadn't, his story may have been the same but his sentiments would have been different.
Also, I did point out that those criminals were probably out there waiting for wheels. It just happened to be Deep Sight. I know a few people that would have pulled crazy stunts to get away from them, believe me. And those people are like that because they understand Nigeria.

As for the hope side of things, "hope" can only truly be hope if it's built on a practical foundation. I have hope despite this story, because it does not invalidate my answer to Nigeria's problems. You see, this story says, "Nigeria is so dangerous and unsafe. One can't even enjoy a late-night drive without running into murderers and r'apists. And even when one has, the police can't do shyt about it. Therefore Nigeria is hopeless." Obviously, I completely disagree. What the story does is say that a very bad rash is incurable because it's on the butt and doesn't allow one the pleasure of sitting.

I say instead that, yes, Nigeria is indeed unsafe for late-night drives because you really could run into very nasty people and if you survived it, the police could worsen your pain with their annoying nonchalance and unprofessionalism. But even for all that, if I could help to clean up the business front and help more Nigerians get more productive, there's a chance that, perhaps slowly, but surely, some day, the Nigerian citizenry first and then the police will have grown so strong and able that late-night drives will only be a question of convenience.