musKeeto:

Being a Nigerian means you are part of the problem, you have to accept that. Everyone's a part of the problem.



It's in human nature to react to harsh conditions. The system in Nigeria is not the best. The 'government officials' were once normal citizens. This is the point I believe Plaetton made earlier. Most 'normal citizens' are just 'corrupt government officials'-in-waiting.

musKeeto:
This is a wrong assertion. Nigerians 'grab/steal/loot' because it's become the norm AND people get away with it. The judiciary/courts are more or less non-existent. The larger the crime, the easier it is to escape,as long as you can access/rub the right backs.. Where crimes are not punished, man is forced to fend for himself leading to mass looting, and other indirect incidents ALUU..

Ihedinobi:

Meh, how are you disagreeing with me?

Consider the underlined. Why is it the norm?

Why are crimes not punished?

Don't we agree that, generally, the average Nigerian is forced to fend for himself?

You're not disagreeing with me. While you're swamped with the symptoms, I'm dealing with root causes.

musKeeto:
And what's this root cause?

wiegraf: Let me attempt to explain something using amateurish psychology/biology.

I could come up with some software program that has prospects of generating millions in naira monthly. Younger people might get it, but only because they're familiar with gates, zuckenberg et al. The vast majority of older people won't. They're not familiar with the IT world, and believe it or not, importantly, they cannot physically see/hold software*. I could show up instead with some simple proposal based on physical goods which would generate only thousands a month yet this will generate more interest, dare I say even from the younger generation. Now note, this isn't a case of you can't teach an old dog new tricks, it's a case of people refusing to use their imagination. I'll call people that prefer the physical sensors, and those that prefer abstract/imagination intuitives. Sensors would learn new tricks if the payoff involved was confirmed, ie, they see a lot of people blinging using similar means. Their refusal to assign any weight to abstract ideas in particular is what I'm trying to highlight as a potential problem. Sensors could be creative pimping up a car, that's cool but it's a physical accomplishment with a mostly physical payoff. They could also be dependable at boring rote work, like say accounting, this is fine and indeed useful as well. But doing accounting is nothing new, it's a safe way to go about quietly building a fortune. So while sensors are useful, especially in day to day management of life, we have far too many, to the point it's cancer. And this traits may be written into our genes according to some.

Why do I think cancer? Examples. A child shows prodigious talent as an artist, parent squishes it relentlessly. They won't want to consider that the child could become an unprecedented success, or that he would simply be happy doing what he's actually good at and loves, even if broke. They'd just want your average, normal family, success in the normal way. They'd reason, "How many successful artists do you see around?". At the end of the day, it's a gamble yes, but society has now lost a potential genius that might have enacted some paradigm shift that would aid all greatly and gained a (probable) clerk instead. He might even be a rich clerk, doesn't change the fact that he'd still be a clerk, gaining material wealth but not providing society a key ingredient to success, new knowledge.

A woman I know whose been around the world, enough to speak multiple european languages comes back here and lives very much like she never left the village. Is she going to visit a doctor today? Na herbalist she dey go see. She grew up with herbalists, and all those european doctors with their new knowledge don't know squat, they are speaking out of their behinds. I've seen this same woman needlessly hustle for 100 naira then immediately spend hundreds of thousands on non essential elements of her car. After all, the car needs to look good. Not to mention, it's just standard nigerian to needlessly hustle for every.single.naira. Even when the hustle actually costs you dearly when you factor in resources you wasted, opportunities missed, relationships spoiled, etc. Doesn't matter, that's how it's done in 9ja, don't think about it.

Or even aluu, without a doubt one of the reasons it generated such an outburst was because there was a video. You would think just being told (well, so long as there's irrefutable evidence it occurred) would be enough to send people over the edge, but they actually had to see the video first. They could not, rather did not bother, to use their imaginations.

Understand this, these people are not some sort of evil, many would give a stranger the shirt on their backs if they could physically confirm his pain, they just choose to not rely on imagination. So it's very much a world view built around what they see, not what they think. Again, this is a trait considered biological by some.

I could go on and on with different scenarios. What does it lead to for a society? There are many positives, many negatives as well. Negatives include for instance, little value on gaining knowledge for the sake of gaining knowledge (a key reason the west is so successful is because it regards any knowledge as good knowledge). A general disregard for alien knowledge of all sorts, even if shown to be successful in the rest of the world (sure follow the whitey at times, but that is also a fad, mirroring their efforts without deliberating on them ourselves, providing new ideas from within, etc). The tendency to not notice glaring hypocrisy and shortsightedness. . .

wiegraf: Let me attempt to explain something using amateurish psychology/biology.

I could come up with some software program that has prospects of generating millions in naira monthly. Younger people might get it, but only because they're familiar with gates, zuckenberg et al. The vast majority of older people won't. They're not familiar with the IT world, and believe it or not, importantly, they cannot physically see/hold software*. I could show up instead with some simple proposal based on physical goods which would generate only thousands a month yet this will generate more interest, dare I say even from the younger generation. Now note, this isn't a case of you can't teach an old dog new tricks, it's a case of people refusing to use their imagination. I'll call people that prefer the physical sensors, and those that prefer abstract/imagination intuitives. Sensors would learn new tricks if the payoff involved was confirmed, ie, they see a lot of people blinging using similar means. Their refusal to assign any weight to abstract ideas in particular is what I'm trying to highlight as a potential problem. Sensors could be creative pimping up a car, that's cool but it's a physical accomplishment with a mostly physical payoff. They could also be dependable at boring rote work, like say accounting, this is fine and indeed useful as well. But doing accounting is nothing new, it's a safe way to go about quietly building a fortune. So while sensors are useful, especially in day to day management of life, we have far too many, to the point it's cancer. And this traits may be written into our genes according to some.

Why do I think cancer? Examples. A child shows prodigious talent as an artist, parent squishes it relentlessly. They won't want to consider that the child could become an unprecedented success, or that he would simply be happy doing what he's actually good at and loves, even if broke. They'd just want your average, normal family, success in the normal way. They'd reason, "How many successful artists do you see around?". At the end of the day, it's a gamble yes, but society has now lost a potential genius that might have enacted some paradigm shift that would aid all greatly and gained a (probable) clerk instead. He might even be a rich clerk, doesn't change the fact that he'd still be a clerk, gaining material wealth but not providing society a key ingredient to success, new knowledge.

A woman I know whose been around the world, enough to speak multiple european languages comes back here and lives very much like she never left the village. Is she going to visit a doctor today? Na herbalist she dey go see. She grew up with herbalists, and all those european doctors with their new knowledge don't know squat, they are speaking out of their behinds. I've seen this same woman needlessly hustle for 100 naira then immediately spend hundreds of thousands on non essential elements of her car. After all, the car needs to look good. Not to mention, it's just standard nigerian to needlessly hustle for every.single.naira. Even when the hustle actually costs you dearly when you factor in resources you wasted, opportunities missed, relationships spoiled, etc. Doesn't matter, that's how it's done in 9ja, don't think about it.

Or even aluu, without a doubt one of the reasons it generated such an outburst was because there was a video. You would think just being told (well, so long as there's irrefutable evidence it occurred) would be enough to send people over the edge, but they actually had to see the video first. They could not, rather did not bother, to use their imaginations.

Understand this, these people are not some sort of evil, many would give a stranger the shirt on their backs if they could physically confirm his pain, they just choose to not rely on imagination. So it's very much a world view built around what they see, not what they think. Again, this is a trait considered biological by some.

I could go on and on with different scenarios. What does it lead to for a society? There are many positives, many negatives as well. Negatives include for instance, little value on gaining knowledge for the sake of gaining knowledge (a key reason the west is so successful is because it regards any knowledge as good knowledge). A general disregard for alien knowledge of all sorts, even if shown to be successful in the rest of the world (sure follow the whitey at times, but that is also a fad, mirroring their efforts without deliberating on them ourselves, providing new ideas from within, etc). The tendency to not notice glaring hypocrisy and shortsightedness. The tendency to not get really creative when the going gets tough, after all their brains are not attuned to that kind of use. The question of honor and conscience, the prospect of certain scenarios could torment an intuitive to no end, him imagining all sorts of horrors for even ostensibly benign scenarios. For sensors, demons of that nature aren't that much of a factor. Heck, intuitives could even readily take on work with no physical payoff at all, they'd just want knowledge or some abstract payoff in exchange. Quality of their work could be better as their goal would not just be cash. They'd more likely see money as a tool, not the goal. Etc,etc,etc,etc,etc

Tl: dr; focus on physical, probably a biological trait, is a core problem. This does not necessarily mean physical lovers (or sensors in another speak) are nefarious, we just have too many of them here


*Steve jobs understood this well. Many a hardcore techy has been left bewildered by apples success. They don't focus on flashy, they focus on the actual meat of the product. What can it do now? What can it possibly do in the future? In most of these categories apple fails miserably, but it succeeds in what matters a lot to the majority of sensors (who make up most of the population), looking flashy. Not to mention that as these people don't like to waste their energy thinking, so apples general simplified ui appeals.

Ihedinobi:

Interesting pov. In fact, it appeals to me greatly. I'll however point out that everyone's a little bit of both. Even though I think each individual is more one than the other.

I will try to address it in the context of this discussion a little later though.

Ihedinobi: I live in one of the most backward states in Nigeria in a city whose glory is an old story. About it, someone once said to me that it is foolish to ask after its library since its people don't read. Dire? I am not the one who wouldn't admit that. Is the situation desperate? Lordy, but yes, of course it is. But hopeless? Absolutely not.

My hope is built on reality not on smoke dreams. I have no problems supplying proof.

Why don't you pick one country with complexities you consider comparable to Nigeria's and let's compare them. I think that that's the best way to explain what I'm saying.

I'm sure I didn't say that. My point is that such viewpoints are usually colored by naivety.

I got you the first time. I am saying that your opinion might not have taken account of the fact that people are at their best with guests they want to impress. You need to look at a people through their own eyes to correctly appreciate their mentality. While I do not argue that there is nothing in numbers, I do not place much faith in multitudes. The majority aren't always right. What's more, apart from musKeeto probably, the rest of you are essentially visitors to Nigeria. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Enigma: A few things to consider.
We need to place things in balance and context. I also have to say that, while acknowledging the difficulties and that it would take time, I am also one who still has hope for Nigeria.

Enigma: A few things to consider.

4. In Lagos, on one occasion of a visit to Naija, a diasporan's car fell into a ditch because he was not familiar with a particular road and where the gutter met the road; he was in a hopeless situation: but then five or six guys passing by without being asked immediately helped to lift the car out of the gutter and back onto the road. Imediately, the car was out, they dispersed and went on their way not even so much bothered about a mere "thank you"!

JeSoul: and that makes 2!

JeSoul: There is definitely some good in naija - no doubt there. Where I'll disagree is in which direction the percentages skew...or else the country would be better than what it is now.

JeSoul: LOL where you that diasporan? lol.

JeSoul: And for every heart-warming story, I can more than double you with a horror one. What I saw was not pretty at all.

Enigma:

Nice.



A hell of a lot does not mean a majority you know. Those who are corrupt are the more visible, the more able to affect things (than e.g. village dwellers) or even those able to effect change e.g. the 'educated', the politician, the pastor; but that they have control and are more visible etc does not mean they are in the majority.



'We speak of that which we know'! In the words of an immortal vintage TV character over here, the person concerned is one that your present interlocutor is in the habit of referring to with the perpendicular pronoun.




No, while I have had my share of engagement with all kind of swindlers etc I am certain you are underestimating the goodness, kindness and generosity side of things. Look, can you believe that even some of the "swindling" is in good spirits and with mutual understanding? I know because I was involved in some of it mysellf as a younger person and all concerned, the 'swindler' and the 'swindled', both knew what was going on and usually laugh about it; as it was in the context of interactions with fellow employees of one organisation, the guys will still buy you a beer while you are all discussing who 'swindled' who.

Now, when I'm home I even allow myself to be a knowing "victim". Just one type of example: you send a little kid on an errand; when s/he comes back you ask him/her for the change from the money you gave him/her; s/he with a knowing smile tells you that she's been asked to come back for the change . . . . .

JeSoul: @Ihedinobi

sorry for the break in transmission, I got lazy. Anyways, for the sake of expediency, lemme skip to the meatier parts...

Understood & appreciated - you're certainly the only one on this thread so that makes you special.

....then we would get into an endless cycle of "comparing & contrasting" before actually addressing the core issue. Just give me your best estimate - on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the worst possible (economic, healthcare etc) where does the average Nigerian's struggles rank? And if you really want another nation as a standard - use Haiti.

Lol. Are you using style to call me naive? You would have to agree that poor people cannot be happy people for that to stand . This is not to say that 9 out of 10times a poor fellow would not prefer to instead be rich oh.

Perhaps. But you cannot fake some of the smiles I saw - much like you cannot fake the indwelling of the Holyspirit - it radiates with an unmistakable accent. And I'm not a "guest" in the pure sense of the word when it comes to naija. I have lived & breathed life there so I'm not entirely a long-distance analyst. But on the flipside, I will always defer to the opinion of one who is in the thick of it as you are. The stakes are higher for you no doubt.

All ^this being said - what part are you playing directly to effect this hope of change that you have? not trying to be smart but just wondering if it translates to foot-action.

Cheers bro.

Ihedinobi:

lol so hard! "Swindler and swindlee" indeed. I'm so cracked up by this post.

Abeg wetin be "perpendicular pronoun"? I think I ate beans and akamu the day we had that lesson in school. Help?

Enigma:


Look very closely at the sentence that follows the bolded, there are two of them in that sentence.

Enigma: A hell of a lot does not mean a majority you know. Those who are corrupt are the more visible, the more able to affect things (than e.g. village dwellers) or even those able to effect change e.g. the 'educated', the politician, the pastor; but that they have control and are more visible etc does not mean they are in the majority.

'We speak of that which we know'! In the words of an immortal vintage TV character over here, the person concerned is one that your present interlocutor is in the habit of referring to with the perpendicular pronoun.

No, while I have had my share of engagement with all kind of swindlers etc I am certain you are underestimating the goodness, kindness and generosity side of things. Look, can you believe that even some of the "swindling" is in good spirits and with mutual understanding? I know because I was involved in some of it mysellf as a younger person and all concerned, the 'swindler' and the 'swindled', both knew what was going on and usually laugh about it; as it was in the context of interactions with fellow employees of one organisation, the guys will still buy you a beer while you are all discussing who 'swindled' who.

Now, when I'm home I even allow myself to be a knowing "victim". Just one type of example: you send a little kid on an errand; when s/he comes back you ask him/her for the change from the money you gave him/her; s/he with a knowing smile tells you that she's been asked to come back for the change . . . . .

Ihedinobi:

I'd thought I did or said something that cost me your interest o. Thank God you came back

Yeah. On this thread. Like you said, there are two now though

Oh, I don't know, 7 or 8? Haiti? That country still exists? Anyhow, the average Nigerian is mired in myriad troubles.

I know you'll forgive me na.

The ish is that you guys blend so well into Western cultures and ways that Africa is essentially a novelty to you more often than not. (Sorry I'm saying that.) You get cynical mostly because you've lost touch with the practical realities of the country.

I imagined you had. The Igbo say, "ana amachi ụwa jọọj" (colloquially, "you hide/cover your embarrassments from the world with what meagre display of wealth you have" ).

I don't mind your asking. I'm quite open and frank as a person, transparency is a big deal with me, but I've recently taken to protecting my privacy as much as possible. So I'm not able to detail what I'm doing. Suffice to say that I currently have a project on hand that should ultimately help to clean up the Nigerian business environment and culture. Really big deal to me, I assure you, especially seeing it's my own lifeline

Edited

JeSoul: On a serious note, did you see DeepSight's thread? https://www.nairaland.com/1087891/armed-robbery-experience-thoughts-nigerian

Enigma: @JesoulI think it is inadequate to simply use Lagos, a rather tiny geographical area when compared to the entire Nigerian geography, as a sole or the determinative benchmark for attitudes throughout the entire country.

Yes, I might have used a comical tone with the knowing 'swindler and swindled' scenarios but I am very serious about the underlying point. There is a distinction to be drawn between out and out fraud and a case where the 'swindler' knows you can afford to let go that N100 (and you know it too) and the 'swindler' is basically nudging you in the direction of letting it go. These scenarios are even capable of being distinguished from the case of the petrol attendant trying to "die" your change.

Let me leave you with a comparison of two scenarios:

A. You ask a belt seller 'how much'? He says N1,500; you a diasporan are not familiar that much with the culture or prices anymore; maybe you haggle a little bit and succeed in buying the belt for N600; you get home and your sister says ah you've been "swindled" --- the belt is only about N200.

B. You live in the UK, you go into a shop to buy an electrical item; the price tag is £100 (no haggling); you get home and a friend who works in retail tells you that the cost price to the shop was only about £25 even taking account of all their relevant expenses/overheads etc. (An aside: many retailers here have a culture that if they buy 10 items for sale, they should have covered the costs of all 10 and made profits by the time they have sold just 3! Then of course if they need to quickly shift the rest they can do a "sale" or price reduction exercise.)

What is the substantive difference between the two scenarios? And what might differing cultures have to do with it? Just food for thought.

One more thing: I read you earlier suggesting that unemployed youths should go back to the village and engage in farming. I am very sorry that that is extremely simplistic: where will they get free or even any land to farm? Assume they have to pay for land, how are they going to afford it? Can they live on farming alone? How much can they sell their harvest for that will cover their basic general living expenses? Clothing, housing etc?

We may not agree of course and that is fine.

Nevertheless, I believe a more proper, sober, forensic assessment is required and not quick/snap and even posibbly emotive assessment. Let me reiterate that I too have experienced first hand the frustrations of sometimes even seeing people behaving hardly better than animals. On the other hand, I have been around several parts of Nigeria other than Lagos to have a rounder picture.

Ihedinobi:

Figured I should address this. You'll forgive me, won't you?

I saw his story on this thread before he created a new thread for it. I did feel for him but strongly disagreed with his conclusions regarding the matter. I refrained from expressing what I thought because I felt he might receive my opinions as a belittling of his misfortune. However, it might serve everyone if I expressed those views now.

If I came to the US and stayed away from the parks because I thought I would have to pay to enjoy them (my understanding is that you don't, am
I right?), I think I would be rightly labeled "naive". If in the same country I refused to call the police when someone pulls a fast one on me and threatens me too just because I'm afraid that the police would seize the opportunity to blow large holes in my pocket, I'm pretty sure I'd get educated on how I'm no longer in Nigeria. My point is, it was a very naive thing to do to be on the streets of Lagos in any thing short of an armoured tank at that time of the night. Plain naive. It was also hilarious, incredibly too maybe, that he should have expected more from the Nigerian police than he got.

That's the point I was trying to make about treating each nation and people-group according to their uniqueness and peculiarity. It's useless to say, "it should not be so, such-and-such does this and has that or would not have allowed that or condoned this". The reality is, you're not in such-and-such, you're in Nigeria. You should act like it.

Now acting like it is not necessarily condoning failure, instead it's recognizing and acknowledging its existence and as such. That in itself is the first step toward fixing the failure. Nobody ever fixed anything by wishing or complaining them away. They always started by making their peace with the fact that there was something to be fixed.

So, while you could probably very quickly and effortlessly supply fifty more horrid stories like his before I've finished telling one good one, the question is: is there hope, or is there a practical basis for hope that Nigeria will turn around? As long as I can point to at least one positive thing that does not fail in the face of the hundred negatives, there is hope. Question asked and answered.

Ihedinobi:

Figured I should address this. You'll forgive me, won't you?

I saw his story on this thread before he created a new thread for it. I did feel for him but strongly disagreed with his conclusions regarding the matter. I refrained from expressing what I thought because I felt he might receive my opinions as a belittling of his misfortune. However, it might serve everyone if I expressed those views now.

If I came to the US and stayed away from the parks because I thought I would have to pay to enjoy them (my understanding is that you don't, am
I right?), I think I would be rightly labeled "naive". If in the same country I refused to call the police when someone pulls a fast one on me and threatens me too just because I'm afraid that the police would seize the opportunity to blow large holes in my pocket, I'm pretty sure I'd get educated on how I'm no longer in Nigeria. My point is, it was a very naive thing to do to be on the streets of Lagos in any thing short of an armoured tank at that time of the night. Plain naive. It was also hilarious, incredibly too maybe, that he should have expected more from the Nigerian police than he got.

That's the point I was trying to make about treating each nation and people-group according to their uniqueness and peculiarity. It's useless to say, "it should not be so, such-and-such does this and has that or would not have allowed that or condoned this". The reality is, you're not in such-and-such, you're in Nigeria. You should act like it.

Now acting like it is not necessarily condoning failure, instead it's recognizing and acknowledging its existence and as such. That in itself is the first step toward fixing the failure. Nobody ever fixed anything by wishing or complaining them away. They always started by making their peace with the fact that there was something to be fixed.

So, while you could probably very quickly and effortlessly supply fifty more horrid stories like his before I've finished telling one good one, the question is: is there hope, or is there a practical basis for hope that Nigeria will turn around? As long as I can point to at least one positive thing that does not fail in the face of the hundred negatives, there is hope. Question asked and answered.

JeSoul: Infact ehn...I'm not sure I want to touch this post lol.

If you're indeed saying basic and fundamental social ideals or expectations of proper human behavior should not be universal....then you're on your own oh! Nigeria does not exist in a vaccum - if we don't demand we rise up the world standards - well this is why we're fading more & more in the rear view mirror compared to much of the world. And I'm afraid the daily grind in naija may have imprinted a sort of desensitized cynicism on you (my turn to yab abi? ) no but really - I'm serious, recognizing failure does not have to take on this folded-arm approach of "well, it is what it is". I fear you oh.

Ihedinobi: Oh damn! Done gone and stirred the freaking hornets' nest, have I.

Guys, I'm just saying that while his experience was very unfortunate, the chances of it happening at all would have been very very low, very near to zero, if he had only accounted correctly for the current social and economic realities of Nigeria. I'm not at all excusing those murderers and ra.pists.

Chrisbenogor, have you considered that they might have been hanging around waiting for some night owl to show up with a free ride for them? Would they have been able to get around and break into people's homes if they hadn't jacked Deep Sight's SUV? Perhaps . . . maybe if they'd got some other unfortunate guy or lady. But they apparently needed the wheels.

It even makes sense to me that they hung around at the entrance of the estate. I come from a lower middle class background and I assure you that you won't find many with such backgrounds hanging around at night. But the upper classes tend to begin to feel untouchable and grow careless so that it would make sense for some late bird to show up and conveniently hand their ride over to them hooligans.

Logicboy03:


The guy was in the richest parts of lagos where there was a security post. Who would expect to be robbed in that place?


You are a freaking captain hindsight- only seeing preventive measures when the illness has already struck!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqkI691dxNg&feature=related

Ihedinobi:

But, dude, the bolded was my point.

Ihedinobi:
Guys, I'm just saying that while his experience was very unfortunate, the chances of it happening at all would have been very very low, very near to zero, if he had only accounted correctly for the current social and economic realities of Nigeria.

JeSoul: ^But what about the people that were sitting down in their own homes minding their business? (to echo Chris' point)