Hi Kimba,

Appreciate the time and effort your rejoinder obviously entailed and the heartfelt belief which I trust motivated it.

But replying in like manner, my conclusion is that you are quite simply mistaken.

Firstly, no one who subscribed to the view that wine in moderation is permissable, was championing recreational/social drinking, wanton consumption, drunkenness or alcoholism. You on the other hand seem to be responding on that basis, please rethink.

Secondly, trying to bolster your arguments by likening it to smoking is disingenuous. Smoking is in no way akin to moderate wine intake. Wine is referenced throughout scripture. Please, taking your argument to it's logical conclusion would be to charge us with advocating substance abuse.

The "whole of Gods Word is truth", and whilst drunkenness is plainly decried, the Bible does not command total abstinence.

Thirdly, arguing that the composition of the "water turned to wine" was non-alcoholic is simply making it up as you go along. I'm particularly bemused by your ad-libbing. The fact that it was not a licentious affair speaks more to moderation. The Bible states plainly that water was turned into wine. Not coloured water, not fizzy drink, nor any other "religiously correct" beverage.

Maybe this will help. The Lords supper, how was it celebrated? Could the cup have been wine? What does the following scripture suggest to you?

1Corinthians 11:21 - for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk.

Was Paul condemning drinking? Clearly not, only selfishness, gluttony and drunkenness.

Speaking of gluttony, a better comparison would be to food. And please note, your stance and tone would condemn everyone who was in the least bit overweight. I trust you are not sir!

All I am hearing is people using scripture to defend their positions, be they personal or denominational. Cart before horse sir. I beseech everyone not to let ingrained religiosity and tradition rob you of the liberty we have in Christ.

Could we please let scripture speak for itself. I can assure you it always does given the opportunity.

So to the more mature and those at liberty, could I close with this ;

Roman 14:20  - Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. 22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.

And to those with doubts;

23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.


Nothing but love

God bless

Drink but done get drunk.

I think this is a well reasoned and balanced view, TV01.

Sometimes our traditional way of reasoning inflames our arguments that we quite often fail to take a balanced view of a subject. Question is: Is It Right For A Christian To Take Alcohol? For ease of understanding, let me delineate this question quite simply into two parts:

(1) Is it okay for Christians to drink wine?

(2) Is it alright for a Christian to take alchohol?

If we're dealing with wine per se, I'd say it is neither endorsed nor is total abstinence commanded in Scripture. Alchohol is another matter - and sanctified common sense should let any Christian filled with the Holy Spirit know that is a red light zone. Not all wine is alchoholic, so it's not really wise to lump everything in one cask.

A distinction is made between 'wine' (Gk. oinos) and 'strong drink' (Gk. sikera - liquor or intoxicant) in Luke 1:15 - and, perhaps, that's the only place where I find the distinction made in the NT. Some wine have intoxicating effect, and only in reading the texts where they appear would it be clear what is meant. So, the context of the topic should be clear to us now.

WINE

Wine per se is not evil. This is demonstrated by the fact that the Lord Jesus and Paul (both filled with the Holy Spirit) did not see it as evil. Jesus changed water into 'wine' that people drank at a wedding celebration (John 2), and spoke of the use of 'wine' for medicinal purposes (Luke 10:34).
Paul recommended wine to Timothy for just about the same purpose, but the sense would be to drink it (I Tim. 5:23). If anyone still thinks wine is a taboo, ask yourself if the Lord Jesus (filled with the Holy Spirit) would have recommended it to anyone, let alone guests at a party. From Luke 7:34, it is most probable that He drank wine as well.

ALCHOHOL

One needs hardly quote many texts to establish this point - nowhere in scripture is alchoholism encouraged by any standard. The lifestyle that tends to a license for this type of drinking is classed as characteristic of those who do not know God ("Gentile" -


               "For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles,
                when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings,
                and abominable idolatries" - I Pet. 4:3

Moderation or no moderation, alchohol/alchoholism is not encouraged among Christians who know God and walk by the Spirit. Sometimes opinions, interpretations and views may be different between believers. However, I'll close by recommending the Spirit-filled example of Paul:

                "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient:
                 all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."
                 I Cor. 10:23

Blessings.

@Goodguy, I would need you to read my post then put in some effort to make sense of what i am saying before picking it apart and discrediting it

Okay i said
Quote from: zebudaya on Yesterday at 10:58:07 PM
@babymine even the wines bottled as non-alchoholic wine have alchohol in them only in very little quantities anything that does not have alchohol in it is fruit juice. do the research

You said "I really wonder where you got this fact from."

I got it from a wine maker's website http://www.arielvineyards.com/about_faq.html#4

Do ARIEL wines contain any alcohol?
It is physically impossible to remove 100% of the alcohol from a fermented beverage. The legal definition of a non-alcoholic beverage requires a product to contain less than 1/2 of 1% of alcohol. ARIEL non-alcoholic wines contain less alcohol than most fresh squeezed orange juice!

Quote from: zebudaya on Yesterday at 10:58:07 PM
"Every man serves the good wine first, and when men have drunk freely, then that which is poorer; you have kept the good wine until now.” (John 2:10, NASB).
You said How does this justify drinking of alcohol? well my point was that nobody would say oh you bring out the bad orange juice first, and when men have drunk freely, then that which is poorer; you have kept the good orange juice until now

goodguy [/b]You also mentioned you didn't know if Jesus drank the wine well forget about that check this out

[b]"For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and
you say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking,
and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax
collectors and "sinners."'" (Luke 7:33-34)

somebody is going to say he was drinking water, somebody else is going to say what is drinking
satisfied!!!

Jesus even tasted alchohol on the cross, oh I bet he is in hell now right kimba, goodguy, and all

John 9:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to his mouth.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

vin·e·gar (vĭn'ĭ-gər) pronunciation
n.

1. An impure dilute solution of acetic acid obtained by fermentation beyond the alcohol stage
Wine

I am getting tired of arguing it seems boring, and mundane and its adding to my problems of being bored. come back at me with facts and not sentiments chop chop.


pharisees and saducees!

@TV01

The "whole of Gods Word is truth", and whilst drunkenness is plainly decried, the Bible does not command total abstinence

you contradicted yourself:
1) The whole of Gods word is truth,
2) the whole of God's word plainly decries drunkenness
3) The Bible does not command total Abstinence

Which Bible are you talking about?

Thirdly, arguing that the composition of the "water turned to wine" was non-alcoholic is simply making it up as you go along. I'm particularly bemused by your ad-libbing. The fact that it was not a licentious affair speaks more to moderation. The Bible states plainly that water was turned into wine. Not coloured water, not fizzy drink, nor any other "religiously correct" beverage.

Whats your point? Jesus turned water into wine and yet you dont think it was non-alcohol, ok so you mean to say Jesus turned water into Alcohol? really, which Bible are you reading?

Maybe this will help. The Lords supper, how was it celebrated? Could the cup have been wine? What does the following scripture suggest to you?

1Corinthians 11:21 - for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk.

Was Paul condemning drinking? Clearly not, only selfishness, gluttony and drunkenness.

Ok then, the ball is in your court. Which kind of wine are you drinking/rather want to drink. Is it a wine that would make you santimonious(at least for a minute ) why you reflect on the Lord's death, His work at Calvary, His coming again? So for everytime you drink wine, are you always reminiscing Christ, and His actions/state of mind during the Lord's supper? Are you always observing the Lord's supper everytime you decide to drink wine, hhmm, I believe not

take a look at what 4get_me said:
@4get_me
thanks for drawing the dividing line, alcohol and wine. So Alcohol is a no go area, and we can stick with wine, fine, but as you quoted:

"For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles,
when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings,
and abominable idolatries" - I Pet. 4:3

Note: The passage says Excesses of wine, so now, what is the definition of excesses of wine, as in who draws the dividing line between wine and excess wine? My own starting point might be your own excess, TV01 - thats another problem isnt it,

1 Cor 6: 12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1 Cor 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

@zebudaya
Please be careful how you quote the Bible, Yes, I know, Jesus tasted vinegar on the cross.

Note: Jesus wasnt having the greatest party of his life, he wasnt entertaining the other 2 theives on the cross to be drinking vinegar, and did you read your Bible to find out how many cups/bottles/shots he took? Did He actually ask for vinegar to quench his thirst or did he ask for water, and in an attempt to further mock him, He was given vinegar?

Now, by your licensing your wine/vinegar/alcohol intake because Jesus took vinegar, are you on any mission to save the souls of man?

Mat 27: 33And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull,
Mat 27: 34They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.
Mat 27: 35And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

As I said earlier, It is awfully wrong to try to use the Bible to justify our wrong doings!!!!

@ 4get me

I feel you.   

@ Kimba

Wow! 

@ Y'all

It's not right for any true christian to drink alcohol.   

Kimba you are the one quoting the bible to the Bible to justify your wrong doings!!!

You quoted Mat 27: 34They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink. vinegar mixed with gall: had a narcotic [/b]effect. It made you high/drunk so he did not drink it.

but when they gave him vinegar/sour wine [b]without the gall he drank. John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
I don't think it was an attempt to mock him, cultures around the world often grant a dying man his last request .
Jesus could have done without the alcohol if he thought it was bad/evil.

Talk about using the bible to justify wrong doing and adlibbing, JESUS NEVER ASKED FOR WATER HE SAID I THIRST!!!

I'm happy you did not say anything about this

"For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and
you say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking,
and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax
collectors and "sinners."'" (Luke 7:33-34)

I am only saving the soul of man from your righteous indignation. Just like Jesus saved the prostitute from the men who wanted to stone her. (he without sin cast the first stone) Jesus drank but did not get drunk, If we drink do not get drunk. It is not rocket science/Nuclear science

like i said come back at me with facts and not sentiments chop chop. saving souls is a sentiment. Hard facts facts facts is all i ask for.

hi y'all , well to me i think 2much of anything is dangerous, in other words i believe it is considered wrong when too much of it is consumed and it gets to mess wit your brain. afterall, some pple drink alcohol for its curative purposes.

secondly, free your mind , if you dont feel comfortable taking it or u feel it bridges a gap between u and God, so the fact remains that the decision on whether its right or not is left for you make, if u think its right , go ahead , but if u think its wrong dont take it , most importantly, dont let anybody influence u or your thinking by quoting scriptures, just free ur mind . and if u still confused then talk to God your own way, feel me ?
think on that

zebudaya:

like i said come back at me with facts and not sentiments chop chop. saving souls is a sentiment. Hard facts facts facts is all i ask for.

Facts should be interpreted, my dear zebudaya.

But let me first acknowledge kimba's making reference to my quote of I Pet. 4:3. He is absolutely correct in his assessment because wine per se is not condemned in the Bible; it is the excess of wine (which is my equivalent of the Gk. sekira - strong drink or liquor) that is discountenanced in God's Word. Leaders among God's people are not to be "given to wine" (that is, 'sold out to wine' - I Tim. 3:3 & Tit. 1:7). Another way of describing this excess would be that one should be "not given to much wine" (I Tim. 3:8 & Tit. 2:3). Spirit-filled believers don't take alchohol, even if they have to take some wine. Much wine can lead to excess ("be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess" - Eph. 5:18, KJV) and the Spirit-filled believer knows better than that.

zebudaya:

I don't think it was an attempt to mock him, cultures around the world often grant a dying man his last request .
Jesus could have done without the alcohol if he thought it was bad/evil.

Talk about using the bible to justify wrong doing and adlibbing, JESUS NEVER ASKED FOR WATER HE SAID I THIRST!!!

Now, as to Jesus' drinking vinegar. It is true that Jesus did not ask for water when crying out, "I thirst." But did He ask for vinegar either? Plainly, NO! So why did they offer Him vinegar to drink? Contrary to your supposition that this offer might have been made as the last wish of a dying man, the Word of God shows the direct opposite. Vinegar was offered Jesus as a sign of mockery!!

The Prophecy:

          "They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink." - Psa 69:21  

The Mockery:

          "And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar" -  Luke 23:36  

The Intended Effect:

          "As vinegar to the teeth, and as smoke to the eyes, so is the sluggard to them that send him." - Prov. 10:26  

          "As he that taketh away a garment in cold weather, and as vinegar upon nitre, so is he that singeth songs to an
           heavy heart." - Prov. 25:20  

From these it shows that while Jesus did not ask for water (even as a last wish) on the Cross, those who offered Him vinegar were mocking Him, fulfilling the prophecy made hundreds of years earlier. Imagine the cruelty demonstrated here: how could anyone offer a dying Man such a drink as vinegar - after being gruesomely nailed to the Cross? The reference in its context is to show how brutal is the heart of man; and by accepting it, Jesus was demonstrating that He received the shame of mistreatment to its limit from man (the criminal arrest, the scorging, the nailing, the public exposure to ridicule. . . and then the mockery of a vinegar drink). This display of open shame and mocking rejection is clearly one of the things that Isa.53:3 hints at: "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

Vinegar is not simply alchoholic drink - its taste is biting to the tongue, teeth and throat, as the verse in Proverbs show.

Jesus might have taken wine as I earlier proffered in Luke 7:34; but I'm yet to come across anywhere in the Bible suggesting that He took sekira - strong drink/alcohol. John 19:30 does not indicate an approval of alcoholic consumption anymore than the Romans dividing Jesus' garments mean we should all go naked! ("These things therefore the soldiers did" - John 19:24).

              Wine (Gk. oinos)? - permissible.

              Alchohol (Gk. sekira - "ogogoro/sapela water" and such)? I absolutely don't!

God bless.



Em. . (hic) er. . my vision is fuzzy already. . and I've to step out for lunch break. No, seriously - not from wine, but dazed by the topic!    

babymine, i think u shouldn't make decisions for anybody.

@Kimba,
Something kept recurring in your reply to my last entry.

Drunkeness

Definitely, this is different from drinking for pleasure and good health. Like I said in one of my entries, some drugs include alcohol in them to make them effective. Just ask a pharmacist nearby and they will tell you it's true.

Besides, a lot of wines nowadays state their percentage of alcoholic content, so it's up to you to choose the ones best for you. Personally, I will not go for any wine with an alcohol content of more than 5%

I believe you can drink any wine (either alcoholic or not), so long as you don't get drunk.

zebudaya:

@Goodguy, I would need you to read my post then put in some effort to make sense of what i am saying before picking it apart and discrediting it

I really do not know what you mean by this.

zebudaya:

Okay i said
Quote from: zebudaya on Yesterday at 10:58:07 PM
@babymine even the wines bottled as non-alchoholic wine have alchohol in them only in very little quantities anything that does not have alchohol in it is fruit juice. do the research

You said "I really wonder where you got this fact from."

I got it from a wine maker's website http://www.arielvineyards.com/about_faq.html#4

Do ARIEL wines contain any alcohol?
It is physically impossible to remove 100% of the alcohol from a fermented beverage. The legal definition of a non-alcoholic beverage requires a product to contain less than 1/2 of 1% of alcohol. ARIEL non-alcoholic wines contain less alcohol than most fresh squeezed orange juice!

You don't have to refer to me to one maker's wine, and then make conclusions that ALL WINES contain some little alcohol. This does not make sense.

zebudaya:

Quote from: zebudaya on Yesterday at 10:58:07 PM
"Every man serves the good wine first, and when men have drunk freely, then that which is poorer; you have kept the good wine until now.” (John 2:10, NASB).
You said How does this justify drinking of alcohol? well my point was that nobody would say oh you bring out the bad orange juice first, and when men have drunk freely, then that which is poorer; you have kept the good orange juice until now

I don't know how this still justifies taking of alcohol.

zebudaya:

goodguy [/b]You also mentioned you didn't know if Jesus drank the wine well forget about that check this out

[b]"For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and
you say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking,
and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax
collectors and "sinners."'" (Luke 7:33-34)

somebody is going to say he was drinking water, somebody else is going to say what is drinking
satisfied!!!

You don't have to misquote the scriptures to justify your own point of view. I'm glad 4get_me already explained the difference between wine and alcohol.

zebudaya:

Jesus even tasted alchohol on the cross, oh I bet he is in hell now right kimba, goodguy, and all

John 9:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to his mouth.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

vin·e·gar (vĭn'ĭ-gər) pronunciation
n.

1. An impure dilute solution of acetic acid obtained by fermentation beyond the alcohol stage
Wine

First of all, you have to note the condition under which Jesus took alcohol. Remember he was to bear the sins of all humanity. It was not his will to do it, but he had no choice. Now, that is a totally different case entirely from what we are discussing right now. Please stop misinterpreting the Bible to suit your own purpose.

goodguy:

zebudaya link=topic=10902.msg304870#msg304870 date=1145587769:


Jesus even tasted alchohol on the cross, . . .

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

vin·e·gar (vĭn'ĭ-gər) pronunciation
n.

1. An impure dilute solution of acetic acid obtained by fermentation beyond the alcohol stage

First of all, you have to note the condition under which Jesus took alcohol. Remember he was to bear the sins of all humanity. It was not his will to do it, but he had no choice. Now, that is a totally different case entirely from what we are discussing right now. Please stop misinterpreting the Bible to suit your own purpose.

No, actually, Jesus did not take alchohol on the Cross. I've already explained this in my immediate past rejoinder that vinegar is not alchohol, and anyone who takes the time to study that text will see it's so.

Even going by the definition zebudaya gave us, "An impure dilute solution of acetic acid obtained by fermentation beyond the alcohol stage" - this clearly should indicate that vinegar is not alchohol. I've explained that vinegar is biting (or pungent) to the tongue, teeth and throat because it is a solution of "acetic acid beyond the alchohol stage."

Jesus did not take alchohol, for it is not the same thing as vinegar. I hope this helps

4get_me, some bible translations use[b] sour wine [/b]instead of vinegar some use wine vinegar
John 19:29 (New International Version)
29A jar of wine vinegar [/b]was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips.

New International Version (NIV)

vinegar
Vinegar is often infused with spices or herbs—as here, with oregano.

[b]Vinegar (from Old French vinaigre, meaning "sour wine" is a sour-tasting liquid made from the oxidation of ethanol in wine, cider, beer, fermented fruit juice, or nearly any other liquid containing alcohol. It can also be made by certain bacteria operating on sugar-water solutions directly. simple chemistry,

Now 4get me is vinegar alcohol? it's made from any liquid containing alcohol. is moin-moin beans, it's made from beans? whats the difference between coca cola and carbonated drinks? is coca cola a type of carbonated drink or is it different. If you drink too much wine you would get drunk

good guy You need to do some research then come back intellectually. don't make me believe you are too lazy to think stuff through. It seems all you do is quote my words just to quote them. and offer some half assed rebuttal. You dissapoint me.

Yea yea Jesus had no choice. Blasphemy . How can you say Jesus had no choice. If he did not want to be crucified anymore he could have asked God to send angels and take him off the cross, but then satan would have won. He took all the pain, even did not taste water for 40 days, and then had no choice? please spare me.

I think I have made my point and i have convinced you that the bible does not condemn alcohol. It only condemns it if you take it in excess .quantities.

@zebudaya, you're correct that some translations use sour wine instead of vinegar, and that's what the text says in the Greek - both expressions are correct (Gk. oxos = vinegar/sour wine). However, what point are you trying to prove - that alchohol is encouraged to be taken by Christians? I hope not; but if that's your conviction, I'll respect it.

If you interpret sour wine as alchohol, I'll grant you that I was wrong, my brother, for supposing that Jesus did not take alchohol on the Cross. However, you're also wrong for failing to look at the text, and supposing that the vinegar was not offered in mockery to Jesus, because it was.

My views:

There's a reason why Jesus is not reported to have taken strong drink (alchohol) before the Cross; and His taking the vinegar/sour wine as He hung there is prophetically significant. At least, granting the fact that vinegar is not normally a drink one would take in social contexts as other drinks, Luke 7:34 only alludes that He drank, without specifically mentioning 'what' He drank. At best, we can simply say it's wine. So, what's the prophetic significance of the vinegar?

Vinegar was made from sour grapes, or at least, has some element of something sour in it. God takes issues seriously, and we should be able to see that the taking of something sour is not seen to be in keeping with God's will. When this happens, it is a sign of God's displeasure. Jer. 31:30 says: "But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."

In my earlier post, I showed how that when Jesus was mocked with the offer of vinegar, He actually took it in fulfillment of a prophecy, and to also demonstrate that He was willing to receive the shame of mistreatment to its limit from man. Vinegar is a pungent drink with a biting taste to the tongue, throat and teeth; its acidic element is alluded to in the verse just quoted: eating the sour grape has the effect of setting one's teeth on edge. But please, notice: this eating of sour grapes is connected with iniquity. Since we cannot die for our own iniquity and obtain our salvation, Jesus took the vinegar (sour wine) on our behalf and died for our iniquities.

This is the reason why I said that Jesus' receiving the vinegar on the Cross in John 19:30 does not grant license or approval to Christians to take alchohol; rather, He received the vinegar (sour wine) to demonstrate His willingness to bear our own iniquity to the full. Jesus did not die for His sin - He was sinless. Every man was sentenced to "die for his own iniquity" and the symbolism connected thereto was the setting of teeth on edge from eating sour grapes. Jesus received the mockery of setting His teeth on edge, but patiently bore the shame of the ridicule and died for our iniquity.

If you take time to study why He refused the drink mingled with gall, then you'll see the prophetic significance of why He took the vinegar. The vinegar is not license for Christians to take alchohol; and that's why we find that of those NT passages that speak of it in the epistles, you'll not find any mention of anyone taking vinegar, but rather wine. All the references I could find in the NT about vinegar point to the events of the cross.

In the light of the foregoing, I'll not encourage anyone to use John 19:29-30 as a license for alchohol consumption - those verses have a prophetic significance entirely of its own and concerning the crucifixion of Jesus who died for our iniquities.

Again, I hope that would be of some help. Regards.

@Zebudaya

Kimba you are the one quoting the bible to the Bible to justify your wrong doings!!!

I'm happy you did not say anything about this     

"For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and
you say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking,
and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax
collectors and "sinners."'" (Luke 7:33-34)

I am only saving the soul of man from your righteous indignation. Just like Jesus saved the prostitute from the men who wanted to stone her. (he without sin cast the first stone)   Jesus drank but did not get drunk, If we drink do not get drunk. It is not rocket science/Nuclear science

Sorry, im not in the Wine and Alcohol team. I didnt start the thread, which one is my wrong doing?


You say Jesus drank but did not get drunk? I like that, :
a) how many times did he drink(whichever one you choose to hold Christ as ransom: Alcohol/wine)?
b) at which point did he stop drinking(since he never got drunk), can you measure the exact point on his MODERATION LIST?

If at least you would be like Christ: you should drink alcohol/wine the exact number of times he drank it, and for the same purposes He took the drinks in, and definitely, stop where He stopped and called it quit. Can you do that?

hey, truth is we should not be filled with wine but filled with the Holyspirit. a little is not bad but truth is large trees start as a seed. so if you are ready to sow the seed of alcholism then start with a very tiny glass! a word is enough for the wise,

mastermind:

hey, truth is we should not be filled with wine but filled with the Holyspirit. a little is not bad but truth is large trees start as a seed. so if you are ready to sow the seed of alcholism then start with a very tiny glass! a word is enough for the wise,

True words!

'NO'. It's very bad.
Doesn't speak well of such person.
And his or her belief in Jesus.

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

zebudaya:

good guy You need to do some research then come back intellectually. don't make me believe you are too lazy to think stuff through. It seems all you do is quote my words just to quote them. and offer some half assed rebuttal. You dissapoint me.

You should be the one to do some more research before coming here to post a link to a wine maker's site who claims his wine is alcoholic, and then you concluding that all wines contain some alcohol.

zebudaya:

Yea yea Jesus had no choice. Blasphemy . How can you say Jesus had no choice. If he did not want to be crucified anymore he could have asked God to send angels and take him off the cross, but then satan would have won. He took all the pain, even did not taste water for 40 days, and then had no choice? please spare me.

Next time, you ask me what I meant then I'll explain. When I said 'He had no choice', what I simply meant was that He just had to do it. He had no choice but to do it for our sake so that the prophecy may be fulfilled.

Back to the Original question now:

The question says, 'Is it right for a Christian to take alcohol?' First of all, you need to understand that the word 'Christian' means 'Christ-like'. You can't claim to be like Christ and be doing what he never did [at least, not for pleasure or any willing reason]. If at all Jesus took alcohol, which I'm beginning to doubt due to the controversial explanation about whether vinegar is actually alcohol; he took it, not that he asked for it, nor did he drink for pleasure or merrymaking. Rather, it was to fulfill the prophecy in Ps 69:21. Therefore, I think if truely you want to justify the act of drinking of alcohol, using what Jesus went through; as a christian (Christ-like), you should be able to go through the same thing, otherwise, DO NOT MENTION ANYTHING THAT WENT ON DURING THE CRUCIFIXION OF JESUS CHRIST!

it's okay to take a little alcohol. just don't get drunk. Lol

seriously, it depends on the church.
if your church says it's okay, it's okay. If your church says it's not, then it's not.

And what about Christians that don't go to church?

they get to decide if they think it's right or not. Or they could ask friends who do go to church.

they probabaly should also consider the health effects of alcohol.

by the ways, does it say in the bible not to take alcohol? i think it says not to but i don't remember where. (I do read the bible!)

I dont really understand what all this fuss and all the lengthy bible quotations are about. Everyone is entitled to their own free will. What one's idea about christainity or born-againism is might be different from the next man's understanding.

Is a catholic a better christain than a protestant or is a deeper-life christain better than a redeemed christain? How can one be better than the other? Is a christain that drinks and smokes better than a christain that backbites, tells white lies or collects small ejunje? Or what about the ones that gives police bribe or pays small cash to sort in order to get his maths to enter uni? What are we arguing about? Please there is no right or wrong way of doing this christainity. Only God can judge us. Sometimes drinkers are even better than the so-called xtains, cos at least we know them for who they are, instead of the so-called born-agains who are more wicked than satan himself.

Pls my dear poster of this topic, if u want to shark, shark u hear! But drink in moderation, cos intoxication messes you up.

Question for 4get_me in particular: what do you say about this commandment (below in different Bible versions) of God Himself?


Deuteronomy 14:26

KJV

And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,


NKJV

And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household


NLT

When you arrive, use the money to buy anything you want--an ox, a sheep, some wine, or beer. Then feast there in the presence of the LORD your God and celebrate with your household.


NASB

You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.


RSV

and spend the money for whatever you desire, oxen, or sheep, or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves; and you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

@Enigma
So Deut 14:26 is your own excuse for alcohol and wine drinking?



https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-9866.0.html

The bible says if our conscience condemns us, God is greater than our conscience. Remember he that knoweth what is good and doeth it not, to him it is sin. _{Think about that.}

Ok babymine your conscience condemns you when it comes to alcohol. Well leave the bottle alone. God gave man choice!. More for me and the rest.

Deut 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, [b]Thats how you party!!!!!!!!!!![/b]

2 weeks from now my friends are graduating from college/getting married, and we are going to eat plenty of well done steak, chop egusi, drink wine, and or Henessy/ Jack Daniels or whatsoever our soul desireth: and we shalt eat there before the LORD our God, and we shalt rejoice, us, and ourhousehold,

OOOhweee!!!!

@ Enigma,

Interesting. I'll grant you that indeed I saw that verse and several others about strong drinks before stating my views earlier above. Like you and some of us, such verses have been a bit amazing until I began to see why 'vinegar' in John 19:29-30. Let me share a few remarks wrt to your enquiry:

1. Translation

The KJV, NASB and RSV are closer to the original words used - wine and strong drink. In fact, when you study that verse, the emphasis is stronger than in English, because 'strong drink' is not simply 'beer' or 'similar drink', but 'intensely alchoholic liquor'. Indeed, people got drunk in such gatherings of God's people, as is suggested by I Sam. 1:3, 7, 13-14. There we see that people went to Shiloh to worship and sacrifice yearly, and in that memorable moment, it is possible to find some people drunk in the celebrations, as Eli the priest scolded Hannah in verse 14, supposing she was drunk. But notice also, that the priest did not encourage that state of mind, for he said, "How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee." The priest who knew God's mind advised people to put away wine, and also sought to discourage drunkenness among God's people.

2. God's Permissive Will

Notice the remarkable thing about Deut. 14:26 - God did NOT command the purchase of wine or strong drink, or any other thing in that verse. Surprised? Look again, for all He said was "whatsoever thy soul lusteth after" - it was not a commandment, but a forbearance (for lack of a proper word). The commandment was that everyone was expected to tithe (verse 22). In verse 23, wine was mentioned, but not strong drink; only in God's permissive will do we read of strong drink in verse 26. It's as if God was saying, "It's up to you - choose what you want to eat and drink", but He adds: "learn to fear the LORD thy God always." I doubt if drunkenness shows the fear of God in a person's life.

Verse 26 - those who were afar from Shiloh should turn their material tithe into money and purchase anything "their souls lusted after" in order that they might rejoice in God's presence. So, how does this translate into God's permissive will? Please understand that not everything that God said was strictly an obligated command in some circumstances; and before anyone stones me for blasphemy, let me explain.

Divorce was an OT "permissive" will of God, even though He hated it (Deut. 24:1). When this question came up in the NT, the Jews enquired why Moses commanded "a writing of divorcement" and send a woman away. Jesus revealed that Moses did that because of the hardness of their hearts, while establishing that God's original will was not divorce (Matt. 19:3-. God allowed divorce as a demonstration of the condition of a man's heart - not because it was His express divine command and will.

An example of how God tests our ability to discern spiritual things is in Judges 7:3-7. God said, "I will try them", and out of ten thousand, only three hundred men passed the test. It pays to be discerning.

So, I offer that Deut. 14:26 was not a direct command to buy and consume strong drink - it was only a permissive will, and only the wise of heart who know God's mind will see this. Undiscerning people will not notice the difference and so will rush for the booze.

3. God's Perfect Will

In the NT, the life of the Christian is marked by the ministry of the Holy Spirit. We are not characterized by the mind and choices of the natural man (I Cor. 2:14)  - only people given to natural (carnal?) inclinations fail to discern what is spiritual from what is not. Our minds are to be daily renewed as we present our bodies a living sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God; it is by this we shall understand and prove what is the good, acceptable and perfect will of God (Rom. 12:1-3).

That's why I've always shared that wine is permissible; but alchohol is not encouraged. I submit that if a Christian wants to drink alchohol, it is entirely up to him/her - and moderation would not matter in such cases, for the man who wants to booze knows no restraints. However, the wisest thing to do is follow God's call to the believer to be filled with the Holy Spirit, rather than with wine in which is excess (Eph. 5:18).

Thank you for sharing and the challenge you posed. It's been worth every ounce of my effort, as deep calls unto deep, and iron sharpens iron.

God bless.

One more thing: let me quickly chip in here that those who want use Deut. 14:26 as the champion excuse for boozing should answer the following questions in all sincerity:

(a) that scripture is connected to tithing and meant for the Jewish people alone - are you a Jew?

(b) it was supposed to be done at a specific time once a year - do you know what that time of the year is?

(c) it is connected with worship at Shiloh were the Jews were in Jehovah's presence - are you drinking strong liquor in His presence?

(d) it was not to be done in one's house, a campus or drinking bar, but in Shiloh where God put His name - are you in Shiloh?

If you can't answer these questions according to Deut. 14:26, then that verse is not for you, and using it as an application for any consumption of alchohol is missing the mark by a million miles.

Regards.

Hi Kimba,

Regards your quote of my post below;

The "whole of Gods Word is truth", and whilst drunkenness is plainly decried, the Bible does not command total abstinence
you contradicted yourself:
1) The whole of Gods word is truth,
2) the whole of God's word plainly decries drunkenness
3) The Bible does not command total Abstinence

Which Bible are you talking about?

I almost missed it, but I see that your dogmatic stance regards alcohol consumption and what the Bible says, may in part (although somehow I doubt it!) be down to to "grammar"

Listen up sir;

As "to eat/eating" does not imply gluttony, neither is "to drink/drinking" synonymous with drunkenness. No contradiction there sir  .

As too "Which Bible I was talking about" I'll overlook that as a "keyboard malfunction"   .

I hope this helps.


4get_me,

I saw your earlier post regards the difference, between "wine & alcohol". I am by no means a vintner or a scientist, but if grapes are fermented, they turn in some degree to alcohol. I see no reason to split hairs on this. If one drinks enough "low-alcohol content" wine, one will become merry, sloshed, drunk as skunk and ultimately comatose. Don't let's introduce "correctness" into our discussions.

I must say, although I thought the digression into the Lord on the cross added little to the question posed by this thread, it was a real eye opener for me, and both Zebudaya & yourself
come away with my respect and appreciation.

Best regards.

God bless