Mr_Anony:
Actually, if you don't think that 1+1=3, you must show that 1+1=2. You can't claim that something is wrong without pointing out why it is wrong by showing what the right answer ought to be.

This is unadulterated folly, so drop it as it's again, really irritating. This is the more accurate version
"You can't claim that something is wrong without pointing out why it is wrong OR by showing what the right answer ought to be."

All I have to do is show you why, the rest is optional. Seems to me you operate as if you already have a conclusion and do everything you can to match it. If whatever steps you have drawn out do not add up logically, then you are wrong. Simple.

Supposing I had an hourglass built to last 1 hour exactly, set it up and made my way to Pikkiwokki's house while moving at 60km/h and steadily maintained that speed. Supposing by the time I reached my destination the hourglass was used up yet I still claimed that I covered only 60km, would you need to know the exact distance I traveled before pointing out I was being stoopid? Simple. A-4king-gain. It does not add up. Quit this as it's very 4king basic, as basic as it gets, yet you somehow don't understand it now that it seems to not be in your favor.

Mr_Anony:
Now I think on this issue of omniscience we have argued round and round and eventually shifted from the focus a bit.

I have given you a good definition of omniscience and essentially the fact that someone else knows exactly what choice you will make next does not take away from you the power to make that choice.

Bold does not add up, how many times have I told you this? His knowing what you are going to do, without any chance of failure, without any odds being involved, means there is only one future that will actually come to pass. The very description of predestination. That is all.

Mr_Anony:
Similarly, the fact that an omniscient being knows what he would do next does not take away from him the power to act according to his plans if anything, it reinforces it because then his will becomes the determiner that isn't predetermined by something else (remember that the omniscient being is not a temporal being by nature but is only acting temporally)

Total nonsense. Can he have any new thoughts or not? If he can, then he most certainly is not the traditional definition of omniscient, at all. As he just had thoughts he did not know he would have, yes? That is all that matters, time traveling or whatever does not matter, I've told you this how many times? As far as the omniscients free will is concerned, absolutely no other thing matters, just this: Can he have new thoughts?

He just had a new thought? He's not omniscient. He does not know if he'll change his mind later and change his or our fate, then that means he cannot predict with 100% certainty what would happen to us in our own temporal universe tomorrow. He can't even tell us for certain what happened yesterday by your definition, as he could simply go back and change it if he wishes.

You have stated clearly that he cannot have new thoughts anony, so this is open and shut, unless you want to redefine omniscience.

Mr_Anony:
Now to your question

About God "changing His mind". . . . .well not really. If God knows everything and the future is not fixed, then God when acting temporally can appear to change His mind.

You say he cannot change his mind in red, then you say our fate is not predetermined
You then say in bold that god knows everything yet the future is not fixed

These are bold faced lies. The rest tumbles miserably on its head, as your premises are akin to saying 0 = 1. For instance

"I will make a distinction between freewill and freechoice in the sense that man is free to make his choices but can't dictate the outcomes or the preceding events that brought him to the point of making the choice because he doesn't know what choices other people are making and have made"

With 'free choice' here, what you are basically saying here is his free will is an illusion. He makes choices but ultimately he must bend to the predestined path. All his actions are what not are just show, already written out. He must follow the path set for him. Explain to me where free will is involved if he cannot rewrite his fate?
Besides that, hth does whatever choices people have to make do with anything in the first place? Only other peoples choices have a say in the future. What if while taking a hike he falls down a cliff and dies, by total accident. No one else was involved in his misfortune, no? WTH? Why does his knowing their choices matter? All it will do is affect his own choices, but he must still follow the path set out to him FFS, the omniscient cannot be wrong and has already foreseen this!

"God on the other hand can see every single choice and action made by everyone therefore God's actions are not predetermined and so His will is free (in the true sense of the word)"

Again, what does seeing every choice have to do with free will? 4k

Again, all that matters is god already knows with absolute certainty what will happen, and neither you nor him can deviate from this path, regardless of whatever you do. THAT THERE IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF PREDESTINATION. Are we clear on that?

wiegraf:

This is unadulterated folly, so drop it as it's again, really irritating. This is the more accurate version
"You can't claim that something is wrong without pointing out why it is wrong OR by showing what the right answer ought to be."

All I have to do is show you why, the rest is optional. Seems to me you operate as if you already have a conclusion and do everything you can to match it. If whatever steps you have drawn out do not add up logically, then you are wrong. Simple.

Supposing I had an hourglass built to last 1 hour exactly, set it up and made my way to Pikkiwokki's house while moving at 60km/h and steadily maintained that speed. Supposing by the time I reached my destination the hourglass was used up yet I still claimed that I covered only 60km, would you need to know the exact distance I traveled before pointing out I was being stoopid? Simple. A-4king-gain. It does not add up. Quit this as it's very 4king basic, as basic as it gets, yet you somehow don't understand it now that it seems to not be in your favor.



Bold does not add up, how many times have I told you this? His knowing what you are going to do, without any chance of failure, without any odds being involved, means there is only one future that will actually come to pass. The very description of predestination. That is all.




Total nonsense. Can he have any new thoughts or not? If he can, then he most certainly is not the traditional definition of omniscient, at all. As he just had thoughts he did not know he would have, yes? That is all that matters, time traveling or whatever does not matter, I've told you this how many times? As far as the omniscients free will is concerned, absolutely no other thing matters, just this: Can he have new thoughts?

He just had a new thought? He's not omniscient. He does not know if he'll change his mind later and change his or our fate, then that means he cannot predict with 100% certainty what would happen to us in our own temporal universe tomorrow. He can't even tell us for certain what happened yesterday by your definition, as he could simply go back and change it if he wishes.

You have stated clearly that he cannot have new thoughts anony, so this is open and shut, unless you want to redefine omniscience.



You say he cannot change his mind in red, then you say our fate is not predetermined
You then say in bold that god knows everything yet the future is not fixed

These are bold faced lies. The rest tumbles miserably on its head, as your premises are akin to saying 0 = 1. For instance

"I will make a distinction between freewill and freechoice in the sense that man is free to make his choices but can't dictate the outcomes or the preceding events that brought him to the point of making the choice because he doesn't know what choices other people are making and have made"

With 'free choice' here, what you are basically saying here is his free will is an illusion. He makes choices but ultimately he must bend to the predestined path. All his actions are what not are just show, already written out. He must follow the path set for him. Explain to me where free will is involved if he cannot rewrite his fate?
Besides that, hth does whatever choices people have to make do with anything in the first place? Only other peoples choices have a say in the future. What if while taking a hike he falls down a cliff and dies, by total accident. No one else was involved in his misfortune, no? WTH? Why does his knowing their choices matter? All it will do is affect his own choices, but he must still follow the path set out to him FFS, the omniscient cannot be wrong and has already foreseen this!

"God on the other hand can see every single choice and action made by everyone therefore God's actions are not predetermined and so His will is free (in the true sense of the word)"

Again, what does seeing every choice have to do with free will? 4k

Again, all that matters is god already knows with absolute certainty what will happen, and neither you nor him can deviate from this path, regardless of whatever you do. THAT THERE IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF PREDESTINATION. Are we clear on that?

yawns

Mr_Anony:
yawns

So?