wiegraf:

This is all good and fine in some ways, but this is issue is settled in a simpler way. With simple yes/nos

Can yahweh tell you with exact certainty everything about you 24 hours?
Can he be wrong?

Note, if you're saying he can know if he wants to, but chooses not to, it would mean he's not omniscient as far as dictionary standard meaning of the word is concerned, which is simply; knowing every single thing.

And regardless, the situation is still untenable for a variety of reasons (there's the butterfly effect, cascading changes for instance). The simplest one would be, what of his own actions? If he does not know his own future actions, how does he know he would not change his mind and interfere with your fate? He could tell where you're going to be and be completely honest and sure about it, but as he does not know if he'll change his mind, he cannot tell you with complete certainty where you would be at the allotted time. In essence, the only way he can be completely capable of telling you what the actual future would be, what choices or path will become the real one(s), is if he know every single action that he himself is ever going to take, voiding his own free will. And by knowing every single action he is going to take, considering his omnipresence, or just the fact that he is supposedly involved with all of us, that means our actions have been determined as well.

my friend, i dont know the God you are fixing into this your pocket, if it is the creator of the univers it will not size.

If you are reasonable, then he is trillion * trillion times far more reasonable.

He has shown reasonableness to many of his prophets.

The example of him regreating that he created man on earth should tell you alot about the long rope he gives to man:

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented(regreat) the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." (Genesis 6:5-6).
................
Reasonableness is a virtue and he has the highest of it among all.

Does that look like who you are talking about?

If there are things that you do that are reasonable, just know that he operate in trillion * trillion times of it.

If human are created in his image, then he is the original while human are the duplicate.

I stick to what the bible in general support Genesis to revelation and not what human ascribed to him.

Infact, the bible shows that Yahweh reacts to the way human that are freewill agent do thinks as to reward them accordingly and perfectly.

He is under no constrains. No boundaries.

If he wishes for any scenario he can arranged it without hindrance.

Can your mind contain him?

truthislight:

my friend, i dont know the God you are fixing into this your pocket, if it is the creator of the univers it will not size.

If you are reasonable, then he is trillion * trillion times far more reasonable.

He has has shown reasonable to many of his prophets.

The example of him regreating that he created man on earth should tell you alot about the long rope he gives to man:

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented(regreat) the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." (Genesis 6:5-6).
................
Reasonable is a virtue and he has the highest of it among all.

Does that look like what you are talking about?

If there are things that you do that are reasonable, just know that he operate in trillion * trillion times of it.

If human are created in his image, then he is the original while human are the duplicate.

I stick to what the bible in general support Genesis to revelation and not what human ascribed to him.

Infact, the bible shows that Yahweh reacts to the way human that are freewill agent do thinks as to reward them according and perfectly.

He is under no constrains. No boundaries.

If he wishes for any scenario he can arranged it without hindrance.

Can your mind contain him?

What does all this have to do with anything? Or are you trying to say I am wrong just because? Or is this an attempt at some sort of jedi mind trick?
wow...
sheeple will be sheeple I guess...

Logicboy03:



You are disgustingly dishonest!


First you are arguing for a god that knows all (even the choices you make) and now, you are now shifting and arguing about the limitation of limited human being not knowing the choice that I will make because if he tells me that I will go left, I can prove him wrong by going right.


In short, you have tried to shift the argument but ended up giving the paradox that destroys the possibility of an omniscient being that gives freewill.

I will do something.


Either god knows what I will do or he doesnt.


If he already knows as a detailed fact what I will do tommorow, then it is predestined and there is no freewill. All I will do is already known.

The analogy I gave you was just to show that the fact that God knows exactly what you are going to do next does not take away anything from your ability to make your own choices.

The thing with you is that because you are a temporal being, you cannot tell an event until it has passed. The only experience you have is of the past and your past is fixed, therefore you expect that the future be fixed also.
God does not share your predicament because He is not a temporal being and therefore not subject to time.

I believe I have shown you a clear picture of what omniscience is. However if you insist that for omniscience to be true, the future must be fixed, then suit yourself. I don't share your convictions and I have provided logical reasons why I don't.

Mr_Anony: I have provided logical reasons why I don't.

You clearly haven't.
Of course, you can believe in whatever you wish to believe in, who cares really. What grates me is you attach this word - logic - to it. You've now venture into the objective, more or else. And again, you're clearly wrong.

Mr_Anony:
The analogy I gave you was just to show that the fact that God knows exactly what you are going to do next does not take away anything from your ability to make your own choices.

The thing with you is that because you are a temporal being, you cannot tell an event until it has passed. The only experience you have is of the past and your past is fixed, therefore you expect that the future be fixed also.
God does not share your predicament because He is not a temporal being and therefore not subject to time.

I believe I have shown you a clear picture of what omniscience is. However if you insist that for omniscience to be true, the future must be fixed, then suit yourself. I don't share your convictions and I have provided logical reasons why I don't.

Bravo sir, Bravo! Well done.


I bow my head in awe in your sheer sophistry. You carved an escape route when you were logically trapped.


The bollshit in you must be strong

mazaje:

And what is his will?. . .His will was clearly stated in one of the verses. . .What exactly are you on about?. . .Is god's will for those you claim he loves a bad one?. . .

Again this verse talks about the so called will you keep repeating endlessly. . .

Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Do you believe that if you ask god for good things like protection from harm he will answer?. . .Or does your god's plan for you as a loving parent include terminal illness that has no cure?. . .

Let me give you a clearer picture of that verse.

“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish?
Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”
Luke 11:9-13

This was Luke reporting the same sermon. The Holy Spirit is the greatest good that God will give His children. Physical circumstances don't matter as long as one has got the Holy Spirit.

That is why someone like Paul can say:

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
Romans 8:35-37

Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.
For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
2Cor 4:16-18

So my friend suffering from sickness or disease is just a minor thing. We already have the greatest good which is Christ. If we die, we die. If we suffer, we suffer. The point is that we have got within us that which is eternal and greater than any physical circumstance. That is what is the will of God that all should come to repentance and not perish eternally (2Peter3:9). That is the greatest gift anyone can receive. All else is secondary.

That is the same reason why God sent His only begotten Son so that none of us will perish but so that we can have eternal life (John 3:16). God is not a genie whose job is to make your stay on earth pleasurable. He is our Eternal Father who loved us so much that He gave us the most important gift anyone could give us.
He gave us eternal life. Our soul is what is most important. It is of no profit to gain the world at the expense of that which is most precious (Mark 8:36)

So my friend, suffering from a "terminal illness" like cancer is nothing compared to the glory that God has prepared for me. If I ask Him to heal me and He chooses to heal me, all glory to Him. If He wills that I die and step into glory with Him, then His name be praised even more. Nothing will separate us from His love not sickness nor suffering nor torture nor death. Absolutely Nothing!

I am glad that God has granted me to have this treasure and I will glorify Him eternally for it.

wiegraf:

You clearly haven't.
Of course, you can believe in whatever you wish to believe in, who cares really. What grates me is you attach this word - logic - to it. You've now venture into the objective, more or else. And again, you're clearly wrong.

As I always say, the fact that you don't understand something does not make it flawed.

I have asked you previously to state your stance. "Do you believe the future is fixed or not?" You have declined to answer but you want to argue on both sides of the question. You can't have it both ways sir.

Logicboy03:



Bravo sir, Bravo! Well done.


I bow my head in awe in your sheer sophistry. You carved an escape route when you were logically trapped.


The bollshit in you must be strong

Of course anything you don't agree with is "sophistry"

By some sheer miracle, i completely lost interest in debating these "logical" sophists.

davidylan: By some sheer miracle, i completely lost interest in debating these "logical" sophists.

Your definition of miracle seems to be non-christian?

Logicboy03:


Your definition of miracle seems to be non-christian?

Not really. I guess at some point i chose to no longer cast my pearls before swine. Those that will be lost will be lost.

davidylan:

Not really. I guess at some point i chose to no longer cast my pearls before swine. Those that will be lost will be lost.

lolz....it must really butthurt you that you know that your children and grandchildren will grow up in an even more godless America.

Logicboy03:


lolz....it must really butthurt you that you know that your children and grandchildren will grow up in an even more godless America.

lol why? the godless we have had with us since time immemorial... nothing is new.

davidylan:

lol why? the godless we have had with us since time immemorial... nothing is new.

Denial

Mr_Anony:
As I always say, the fact that you don't understand something does not make it flawed.

I have asked you previously to state your stance. "Do you believe the future is fixed or not?" You have declined to answer but you want to argue on both sides of the question. You can't have it both ways sir.

This is why you are considered, well...
My position isn't being debated, mr lalala, yours is. I have not made any claims as to what whether I believe the future is fixed or not, or you didn't notice that? You, on the other hand, have. I am pointing out that your claim is complete and utter rubbish thus you should not attach the word logic to it, as it's insulting the intelligence of those around you. How would you feel if I constantly claimed that bill gates lawns my grass? That's how others feel when you go around claiming your ideas are logical.

There is nothing to understand in your claim. Regardless of whether he time travels or whatever it is, so long as he cannot have any new thoughts, then he has no free will, simple. Very. That is it. That is the logical way to look at it. No but, if or any thing else.

wiegraf:

This is why you are considered, well...
My position isn't being debated, mr lalala, yours is. I have not made any claims as to what whether I believe the future is fixed or not, or you didn't notice that? You, on the other hand, have. I am pointing out that your claim is complete and utter rubbish thus you should not attach the word logic to it, as it's insulting the intelligence of those around you. How would you feel if I constantly claimed that bill gates lawns my grass? That's how others feel when you go around claiming your ideas are logical.

There is nothing to understand in your claim. Regardless of whether he time travels or whatever it is, so long as he cannot have any new thoughts, then he has no free will, simple. Very. That is it. That is the logical way to look at it. No but, if or any thing else.

If you are arguing about an omniscient being's freewill then you are arguing a strawman because the presence or absence of his freewill here is not what is in question at this point and is not relevant to whether your future is fixed or variable.
The case before us is the freewill of those he observes I have given you a definition of omniscience that makes it clear that the fact that he knows what you will do next does not mean you are not the one doing it of your own accord. His omniscience does not in any way undermine your freewill.
Essentially you have not made a complete and valid counter argument. Your counter-argument appears like this:

If an omniscient being exists, then the future is fixed. The question that follows from here is: Is the future fixed? It is now whether the future is fixed or not fixed that will determine the existence of an omniscient being according to your premise. You have declined to answer.
If you can't tell me whether the future is fixed or not, then you also lose the grounds to argue for the non-existence of an omniscient being. Your argument is incomplete, you cannot have it both ways.

To reject a position, you must have a counter-position which accept based upon which you reject the position else your objection is null. You cannot argue in a vacuum.

advocate666:

If you want, you can shake your nyash as well, it doesn't change the truth. The burden of proof lies with the proponent of an imagination.

i've heard that quote b4 from a white atheist. Atheism is a religion of its own. So na d quotes wey dem dey teach una b dat? Atheism na faith joor.

inurmind:

Are u sure?
Because ur christian brothers have be chickening out of all the tests atheists have challenged them with.
So I repeat, are u sure?
Are u ready to do this?

i accept your challenge. Create another trend strictly for just misef and ursef. D rules? No other person is invited,neither theists nor atheists are invited. The others will be spectators. No insults or abusive speech. Once any of the aforementioned rules were broken,i'll find mi way. Agreed? When you agree,create d topic and invite mi to your world.

edogho: i accept your challenge. Create another trend strictly for just misef and ursef. D rules? No other person is invited,neither theists nor atheists are invited. The others will be spectators. No insults or abusive speech. Once any of the aforementioned rules were broken,i'll find mi way. Agreed? When you agree,create d topic and invite mi to your world.

Understand this, I am not talking about long debates or arguments, I mean spiritual things.
U can read 1kings:18 for better understanding.
The reason why I am telling u now is becos I do not want to create a thread all for u to be like ''I didn't know thats what u meant'' or to start giving me silly excuses like ur fellow christians have.
Are U ready for this?
Are u up for the challenge?
Do u really believe ur god will answer u when u call for him?

....
....

Mr_Anony:
To reject a position, you must have a counter-position which accept based upon which you reject the position else your objection is null. You cannot argue in a vacuum.

Suddenly, you've forgotten how the burden of proof works. Was it earlier in this thread or another where you miraculously understood how it worked when it benefited you? Or are you working around proven facts somewhere here that I have to disprove?

Let me explain what we have here, you have basically claimed 1+1=3. I don't have to prove to you 1 + 1 = 2 to point out you're so, so wrong. I don't have to know the answer, I don't have to show you an alternative answer. All I have to do is prove your claim is false. All I have to do is show you that 1 + 1 != 3. Do you understand now?

Mr_Anony:
If you are arguing about an omniscient being's freewill then you are arguing a strawman because the presence or absence of his freewill here is not what is in question at this point and is not relevant to whether your future is fixed or variable.

I'm not even sure if you know what a strawman is, but here
Original question:

wiegraf:
So now I am asking you if you know any xtians who have via prayer or otherwise changed the mind of your omniscient god? Is it possible to do so?

Notice who's free will I am asking about? Not to mention doesn't the question require resolving the nature of omniscience since you somehow think omniscience can exist alongside free will? That is clearly impossible using the standard definition of omniscience, so you now have to give us your definition. You've given a definition, I've told you it's completely illogical to hold that position and maintain the being still has free will, and shown you how. Now we're at this point.

But very regardless, even if I wasn't asking about yahwehs free will but that of the average persons, yahwehs free will is still very, very much relevant. Because, like I've already stated, yahweh's (assuming he existed) fate is linked with ours. If yahweh's actions were predetermined, and he interacts with us, then we would be required to play out our parts as well.

Say yahweh was supposed to show up on cnn this morning, then everyone involved would have to show up as scripted. The reporters, the cameramen, the viewers, they would all have to be there to satisfy yahweh's predetermined course, regardless of whatever they tried to do. And so there you have it, if yahweh's course is predetermined, then so is ours.

He need not even be necessarily in this galaxy, let alone this planet, to effect us. But showing that would require time and is fairly needless atm. Then you also claim he created the universe, which would also be a predetermined act. And if you claimed he was omnipresent...

anony:
The case before us is the freewill of those he observes I have given you a definition of omniscience that makes it clear that the fact that he knows what you will do next does not mean you are not the one doing it of your own accord. His omniscience does not in any way undermine your freewill.

That is probably not the case before us. Anyways, again, his knowing unfailingly and completely what is going to happen to you is the very definition of predestination. Predestination is the very opposite of having free will. How in what universe can you stare directly at black and call it white?

Mr_Anony:
Essentially you have not made a complete and valid counter argument. Your counter-argument appears like this:

If an omniscient being exists, then the future is fixed. The question that follows from here is: Is the future fixed? It is now whether the future is fixed or not fixed that will determine the existence of an omniscient being according to your premise. You have declined to answer.

You see the bolded? That is all. There is no question asked after that. Once examined (a step you seem to be skipping or ignoring), that there is a 1 + 1 = 2 fact. It is our 1 + 1 != 3 to be more accurate. The rest of the text there is completely irrelevant (and features some more crazy anonilogic), it in no way shows how that fact right there can be wrong. It is simple logic.

Also, as I have told you several times, I am not making a claim. I am simply pointing out a fact. Omniscience without any probabilities or chance involved is only possible with predestination. Simple. Once you say there is no chance whatsoever of yahweh being wrong, then the universe and all in it (including him) are predetermined.

Mr_Anony:
If you can't tell me whether the future is fixed or not, then you also lose the grounds to argue for the non-existence of an omniscient being. Your argument is incomplete, you cannot have it both ways.

See above.

I am not make any claims ffs. I don't believe in gods, santa, satan, omoniscients, blah 4king blah so wtf should I be making claims about these? All I do is show you when you make a nonsense claim that it is nonsense...

4k

Mr_Anony:
Let me give you a clearer picture of that verse.

“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish?
Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”
Luke 11:9-13


This was Luke reporting the same sermon. The Holy Spirit is the greatest good that God will give His children. Physical circumstances don't matter as long as one has got the Holy Spirit.

Another bible contradiction. .God things and the holy spirit are NOT the same thing. . .The unknow writer of Mathew and the Unknow writer of Luke did NOT have the same thing in mind when they wrote down what ever it is they chose to write down. . .One said holy spirit the other said good things they do not mean the same thing if they both wanted to write holy spirit they would have written holy spirit. .

That is why someone like Paul can say:

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
Romans 8:35-37

Your god loves you but then allows you to be killed and maimed?. . .The same bible talks about god protecting his own and guiding them,no?. . .You just can't get away with this very contradictory book of mythology. . .

Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.
For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
2Cor 4:16-18

I do not have time for basless mythology that have nothing to do with reality. . .The only point I was making right from the beggining is that despite all these claims of heaven and bla bla bla and how you all want to go there. . If christians are in danger or come face to face with death ALL they do is cry and beg for mercy to live. .They NEVER pary for a painless of fast death, all the do ALL the time is pray for more life. . .The nonsense you put ut there will make sense only if christians pray for fast death when ever they come in contact with death, they trhey ALWAYS do other wise shows that the reality as we know it has nothing to do with the mytholgy they profess to believe. .

So my friend suffering from sickness or disease is just a minor thing. We already have the greatest good which is Christ. If we die, we die. If we suffer, we suffer. The point is that we have got within us that which is eternal and greater than any physical circumstance. That is what is the will of God that all should come to repentance and not perish eternally (2Peter3:9). That is the greatest gift anyone can receive. All else is secondary.

Then why do christians never pray for death to come quickly and take them so that they will go and be with christ which is the greatest good?. . .Its easy to keep repeating long held mythical beliefs, no?. . .When reality comes to shove that's when we know the real thing. . .

That is the same reason why God sent His only begotten Son so that none of us will perish but so that we can have eternal life (John 3:16). God is not a genie whose job is to make your stay on earth pleasurable. He is our Eternal Father who loved us so much that He gave us the most important gift anyone could give us.
He gave us eternal life. Our soul is what is most important. It is of no profit to gain the world at the expense of that which is most precious (Mark 8:36)

Just like the same reason reason allah revealed his final revelations to mohammed. What am I to do with your mythical held beliefs?. . .Am talking about the reality I see happening around and you keep repeating your long held mythical beliefs to me as if they mean anything or have anything to do with reality. . .Soul?. . Clear cut irrefutable evidence that the soul exist is what?. . .

So my friend, suffering from a "terminal illness" like cancer is nothing compared to the glory that God has prepared for me. If I ask Him to heal me and He chooses to heal me, all glory to Him. If He wills that I die and step into glory with Him, then His name be praised even more. Nothing will separate us from His love not sickness nor suffering nor torture nor death. Absolutely Nothing!

Its not even about death. . .You claimed your god loves humans and gave example with the human society, you are always found of using humans to explain your god, but when we use the same humans to show that your god is nothing but a convoluted idea you will claim that your god is kind of beyond our understanding and his ways are different from the human ways after trying to use the human ways to explain away the mythical god idea. . .

I am glad that God has granted me to have this treasure and I will glorify Him eternally for it.

I hope you die tomorrow so that you will go and be with with your sweet Jesus. . .Say amen to that. . .

wiegraf:

What does all this have to do with anything? Or are you trying to say I am wrong just because? Or is this an attempt at some sort of jedi mind trick?
wow...
sheeple will be sheeple I guess...

"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the debaters/disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe

"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified,
unto the Jews a stumblingblock,
and unto the Greeks foolishness,

"Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

." (1 Corinthians 1:20-25)

QED

mazaje:

Another bible contradiction. .God things and the holy spirit are NOT the same thing. . .The unknow writer of Mathew and the Unknow writer of Luke did NOT have the same thing in mind when they wrote down what ever it is they chose to write down. . .One said holy spirit the other said good things they do not mean the same thing if they both wanted to write holy spirit they would have written holy spirit. .



Your god loves you but then allows you to be killed and maimed?. . .The same bible talks about god protecting his own and guiding them,no?. . .You just can't get away with this very contradictory book of mythology. . .



I do not have time for basless mythology that have nothing to do with reality. . .The only point I was making right from the beggining is that despite all these claims of heaven and bla bla bla and how you all want to go there. . If christians are in danger or come face to face with death ALL they do is cry and beg for mercy to live. .They NEVER pary for a painless of fast death, all the do ALL the time is pray for more life. . .The nonsense you put ut there will make sense only if christians pray for fast death when ever they come in contact with death, they trhey ALWAYS do other wise shows that the reality as we know it has nothing to do with the mytholgy they profess to believe. .



Then why do christians never pray for death to come quickly and take them so that they will go and be with christ which is the greatest good?. . .Its easy to keep repeating long held mythical beliefs, no?. . .When reality comes to shove that's when we know the real thing. . .



Just like the same reason reason allah revealed his final revelations to mohammed. What am I to do with your mythical held beliefs?. . .Am talking about the reality I see happening around and you keep repeating your long held mythical beliefs to me as if they mean anything or have anything to do with reality. . .Soul?. . Clear cut irrefutable evidence that the soul exist is what?. . .




Its not even about death. . .You claimed your god loves humans and gave example with the human society, you are always found of using humans to explain your god, but when we use the same humans to show that your god is nothing but a convoluted idea you will claim that your god is kind of beyond our understanding and his ways are different from the human ways after trying to use the human ways to explain away the mythical god idea. . .



I hope you die tomorrow so that you will go and be with with your sweet Jesus. . .Say amen to that. . .

your argument is blind and close minded.

The very foundation of christianity and christ is based on a better life that cannot be attain in this system under satan control and of which Adam lost.

That better hope can only be attained in the kingdom of God, the truth being that all the possible "Bill Gate life style" if attained in this system is very temporary and not lasting since death remains our greatest enemy.

The rational thing then for one that loves life, the real life indeed, is to ensure ensure he keys into the promise of a better system rather than lose out on that because of a very short opurtunity under satan's rule couple with sickness and pains.

But the promise one have better options and promises better things :

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4).
...............
if you have a better option than this ^^^ then invite me i will join you.

While looking out for that i still work and earn a living, food, s.ex, house, etc and benefit from a superior moral code that protect me from dirty diseases, while still having this hope.

the hope that the followers of christ entertain:

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come out " (John 5:28).

And this:
1corinthians 15:12-22

13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has
been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about
God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did
not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your
sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen
asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a
man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

truthislight:


"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the debaters/disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe

"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified,
unto the Jews a stumblingblock,
and unto the Greeks foolishness,

"Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

." (1 Corinthians 1:20-25)

QED

That reads like meeeeehhh, mmmmeeeehhhh, meehhh? Mmmmmeeeeehhhh!!! Meehh, meh...

wiegraf:

That reads like meeeeehhh, mmmmeeeehhhh, meehhh? Mmmmmeeeeehhhh!!! Meehh, meh...

true to kind, No?

truthislight:

true to kind, No?

Meeeh?

wiegraf:

Meeeh?

ok, true to type and kind.

truthislight:

ok, true to type and kind.

Meh

inurmind:

Understand this, I am not talking about long debates or arguments, I mean spiritual things.
U can read 1kings:18 for better understanding.
The reason why I am telling u now is becos I do not want to create a thread all for u to be like ''I didn't know thats what u meant'' or to start giving me silly excuses like ur fellow christians have.
Are U ready for this?
Are u up for the challenge?
Do u really believe ur god will answer u when u call for him?

you talk too much.

inurmind:

Understand this, I am not talking about long debates or arguments, I mean spiritual things.
U can read 1kings:18 for better understanding.
The reason why I am telling u now is becos I do not want to create a thread all for u to be like ''I didn't know thats what u meant'' or to start giving me silly excuses like ur fellow christians have.
Are U ready for this?
Are u up for the challenge?
Do u really believe ur god will answer u when u call for him?

you talk too much. Still waiting for your invitation

wiegraf:

Meh

what!

Nooooooo!
That cant be your kind?

wiegraf: ....
....


Suddenly, you've forgotten how the burden of proof works. Was it earlier in this thread or another where you miraculously understood how it worked when it benefited you? Or are you working around proven facts somewhere here that I have to disprove?

Let me explain what we have here, you have basically claimed 1+1=3. I don't have to prove to you 1 + 1 = 2 to point out you're so, so wrong. I don't have to know the answer, I don't have to show you an alternative answer. All I have to do is prove your claim is false. All I have to do is show you that 1 + 1 != 3. Do you understand now?



I'm not even sure if you know what a strawman is, but here
Original question:


Notice who's free will I am asking about? Not to mention doesn't the question require resolving the nature of omniscience since you somehow think omniscience can exist alongside free will? That is clearly impossible using the standard definition of omniscience, so you now have to give us your definition. You've given a definition, I've told you it's completely illogical to hold that position and maintain the being still has free will, and shown you how. Now we're at this point.

But very regardless, even if I wasn't asking about yahwehs free will but that of the average persons, yahwehs free will is still very, very much relevant. Because, like I've already stated, yahweh's (assuming he existed) fate is linked with ours. If yahweh's actions were predetermined, and he interacts with us, then we would be required to play out our parts as well.

Say yahweh was supposed to show up on cnn this morning, then everyone involved would have to show up as scripted. The reporters, the cameramen, the viewers, they would all have to be there to satisfy yahweh's predetermined course, regardless of whatever they tried to do. And so there you have it, if yahweh's course is predetermined, then so is ours.

He need not even be necessarily in this galaxy, let alone this planet, to effect us. But showing that would require time and is fairly needless atm. Then you also claim he created the universe, which would also be a predetermined act. And if you claimed he was omnipresent...



That is probably not the case before us. Anyways, again, his knowing unfailingly and completely what is going to happen to you is the very definition of predestination. Predestination is the very opposite of having free will. How in what universe can you stare directly at black and call it white?



You see the bolded? That is all. There is no question asked after that. Once examined (a step you seem to be skipping or ignoring), that there is a 1 + 1 = 2 fact. It is our 1 + 1 != 3 to be more accurate. The rest of the text there is completely irrelevant (and features some more crazy anonilogic), it in no way shows how that fact right there can be wrong. It is simple logic.

Also, as I have told you several times, I am not making a claim. I am simply pointing out a fact. Omniscience without any probabilities or chance involved is only possible with predestination. Simple. Once you say there is no chance whatsoever of yahweh being wrong, then the universe and all in it (including him) are predetermined.




See above.

I am not make any claims ffs. I don't believe in gods, santa, satan, omoniscients, blah 4king blah so wtf should I be making claims about these? All I do is show you when you make a nonsense claim that it is nonsense...

4k

Actually, if you don't think that 1+1=3, you must show that 1+1=2. You can't claim that something is wrong without pointing out why it is wrong by showing what the right answer ought to be.


Now I think on this issue of omniscience we have argued round and round and eventually shifted from the focus a bit.

I have given you a good definition of omniscience and essentially the fact that someone else knows exactly what choice you will make next does not take away from you the power to make that choice. Similarly, the fact that an omniscient being knows what he would do next does not take away from him the power to act according to his plans if anything, it reinforces it because then his will becomes the determiner that isn't predetermined by something else (remember that the omniscient being is not a temporal being by nature but is only acting temporally)

Now to your question

wiegraf: So now I am asking you if you know any xtians who have via prayer or otherwise changed the mind of your omniscient god? Is it possible to do so?

About God "changing His mind". . . . .well not really. If God knows everything and the future is not fixed, then God when acting temporally can appear to change His mind. For instance in the case of Hezekiah who was supposed to die and he prayed and God granted him life. God knew

outcome 1: Hezekiah doesn't pray, he dies
outcome 2: Hezekiah prays, he dies
outcome 3: Hezekiah prays, God chooses to step in. Hezekiah lives.


Now the difference between Hezekiah and God is that Hezekiah doesn't know if God will grant him life. He prays hoping that God does. Hezekiah here can make choices but he cannot know 100% what the outcome of his choices will be. God on the other hand knows 100% what the outcome of every choice will be. From Hezekiah's point of view, God changed His mind but from God's viewpoint, He really didn't (at least not in the sense that we as humans understand as "changing a mind" )

Perhaps at this point to clear all confusion, I will make a distinction between freewill and freechoice in the sense that man is free to make his choices but can't dictate the outcomes or the preceding events that brought him to the point of making the choice because he doesn't know what choices other people are making and have made. so while previous actions of other people and the individual may pre-determine a person's actions, the choices are still his to make even though his will is limited.

God on the other hand can see every single choice and action made by everyone therefore God's actions are not predetermined and so His will is free (in the true sense of the word)