dokie:

you are the one who claims the bible is your only source of teaching and here you are intentionaly refusing to explain a scriptural verse, or better still blatantly refusing to accept what scripture is very clear on, rather you chose to drive your thoughts down the minds of people, and you wonder why i say you are a captive of the devil? the Holy Spirit says david was a sinner right fron his mothers womb, brought forth inside iniquity, not even at the point of birth but at the point of conception, and you frosbel says david was not born a sinner. this is how you have continually avoided the clear truths in the bible, and misrepresented others to your own ruin.

Wrong.

He was not a sinner from birth , he was born with the adamic sinful nature with a propensity to sin when of age.

It is quite illogical and totally false to call someone who is in the womb , without the knowledge of right or wrong talk less of committing a sinful act , a sinner.

How can I be a sinner, if I do not sin.

There are also problems with your theology , because if we take it at face value, then :

1. Mary then was not sinless, she was a sinner which debunks your roman myths.
2. A baby who knows nothing goes to hell just because he was born a sinner
3. It flies in the face of countless scripture where God specifically says that it is the SOUL that sins that shall die
4. It contradicts Ezekiel 18 where God says that the child shall not be responsible for the parents sin.

It is FALSE !

now you that have rejected a clear verse of scripture, are now asking me where babies who die without being baptized go to so that i can quote the cathecism ofbthe carholic church on it so that you can divert attention from your blatant rejection of the scripture which you some much hold dear.

I am not diverting attention way , Pal.

Just look at the heresy your church is promoting, taken direct from the Baltimore Catechism :

Question 632. Where will persons go who -- such as infants -- have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism?

Answer . Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism, cannot enter heaven; but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to Limbo, where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the happiness of heaven.

Can you not see how DEMONIC this doctrine is.

SMH

The fact is we all are born with the inherent sinful nature of adam....nothing more nothing less.......

Frosbel I hope this is what you agree with......

ijawkid: The fact is we all are born with the inherent sinful nature of adam....nothing more nothing less.......

Frosbel I hope this is what you agree with......

we are born with a sinful nature is not the same as being a sinner

a sinful nature only means that we are inclined to sin and that happens when we get to the age of choosing between right or wrong.

Sin is an act, not a state.

A baby has no clue of wrong and right and even a child up to a certain age may not have fully developed knowledge of sin and the woeful implications.

"Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;- Jeremiah 19:4-5

Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it. - Deuteronomy 1:39

frosbel:

we are born with a sinful nature is not the same as being a sinner

a sinful nature only means that we are inclined to sin and that happens when we get to the age of choosing between right or wrong.

Sin is an act, not a state.

A baby has no clue of wrong and right and even a child up to a certain age may not have fully developed knowledge of sin and the woeful implications.

"Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;- Jeremiah 19:4-5

Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it. - Deuteronomy 1:39

You're correct......

It appears semantics may be part of your issue. You seem to agree with people being born with a sinful nature - isn't that what original sin connotes?

In other words, didn't the sinful nature arise from Adam's original sin?

debosky: It appears semantics may be part of your issue. You seem to agree with people being born with a sinful nature - isn't that what original sin connotes?

No.

It says we are born in sin and are sinners even before we commit the act.

It's like calling a baby a thief because his father is a thief even though the baby is innocent.

When MAN sinned, there was a consequence, this consequence was DEATH. Man was no more perfect his nature was now marred , he will now have to contend with sin and overcome it.

I like where you took it from, very correct when man sinned the consequence was death according to Genesis 2:14
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God told man that in the day he eats out of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he is sure to die, but interestingly man did not die the same day showing that the death God had in mind was a different kind of death. Whenever the bible made mention of death, it mostly refer to spiritual death, so when God told man he will die he was talking about spiritual death which is eternal separation from God for God is life. Now obviously it is not just the spiritual death God meant but also physical death which he later suffered, though man was not supposed to die. It was just that one act of disobedience that brought about death both spiritually and physically.

Jesus came to reverse this process in 2 ways :

1. Overcome sin and make an atonement for our sins to destroy the problem of SIN
2. Resurrection from death which is the cause of SIN, so that all who die in Christ will again live forever.



I agree with you on this, but notice you used sin in the plural and singular and so does Paul, please study the book of Romans. There is a principle of sin (singular) at work in us which is always the root cause of the other sins (plural) we commit, the problem is the principle of sin and not the many sins we committed. Jesus came to do away with the principle and the root cause of sin which is at work in us and causes us to commit the many sins. He also brought eternal life as you said but in place of eternal death which originated as a result of the original sin of Adam, this is the concept of original sin, it is the sin Adam committed which brought death to humanity. This is the relevance of the scripture quoted by ichuka, but adding

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) {by one man's...: or, by one offence}
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. {by the offence...: or, by one offence} {by the righteousness...: or, by one righteousness}
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The issue of original sin , is that we are born sinners and therefore , through no fault of ours, we cannot help sinning, this is false.

This is not false because the truth is that we cant help sinning as long as the principle of sin is still in us and we refuse christ, but it is done away with in christ Jesus for anyone that have Jesus in his life has been set free and have the power to live a sin free life, though this depend on the individual christian. But for an unbeliever it is very true which is why all they need to do is believe and accept Jesus and they will be saved and graced (empowered).

We as adults have a moral responsibility to choose right from wrong, we must overcome temptation and be victorious to the end by trusting in the work of the cross and imbibing the grace of GOD.


Very true bro, our responsibility to grow in grace. 2Peter 3
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


A baby has no such knowledge and cannot therefore be called a sinner. Sin is an action ,

[/quote]

The concept of original sin does not make us sinner still for Jesus had dealt with that, Jesus did not die for sinners alone but the whole world. What Jesus did includes everyone either they believe it or not, Jesus restored all that man lost in the Garden and remember Adam represented all men. When a child is born he is innocent and without sin, this is why when anyone dies as a child he goes to Heaven, it has never been claimed by anyone who had revelations of Hell that they saw children in Hell, all they claim is they saw them in Heaven, though i dont base my summation on that. When Jesus died for the whole world, anyone that believes in Him have eternal life according John 3:16, but you must have come to the point where you make decision for HIm, when a child leaves the state of innocence he is expected to make a decision for Him to be accepted into the kingdom, but as long as he is innocent what Jesus had done covers him. No child could be condemned according to the scriptures you quoted, after Jesus came there was a reverse to the way things was done, this is the reason everyone in Hell was given the opportunity to live when Jesus resurrected, but now all we have to do is to call upon that name and we will be saved, this will be a topic for another day.

The concept of original sin do not still make us sinners for Jesus had come, but for those that refuse the free gift remain sinners. Those that refuse the free gift of life will be punished first for refusing the gift before what they did and not the other way round, the greatest sin in this dispensation is rejecting Christ and not the many sins we commit which makes the principle of sin still active and thereby we commit the many sins.

Let me stop here to continue later that there may be clarity.

Stay blessed bro and remain rapturable

frosbel:


No.

It says we are born in sin and are sinners even before we commit the act.

It's like calling a baby a thief because his father is a thief even though the baby is innocent.

Are you disputing the Word of God?
His Word says that by the disobedience of adam that All became Sinners..Romns5:19,why is it so hard for you to grasp.
Don't you know that we are all in the garden of Eden with Adam and that we all agree and ate the fruit with him?
The same way that all that believe in our Lord Jesus Christ,when He died on the Cross we died,resurected and ascended with Him.don't you know?

Sin is a nature that we were born into. Through adamic sin. Every man had sinned in Adam . It's a simple bible truth. The bible didnt say "all have tendency to sin" but rather all HAVE INNED ( in Adam)

i.chuka:

Are you disputing the Word of God?
His Word says that by the disobedience of adam that All became Sinners..Romns5:19,why is it so hard for you to grasp.
Don't you know that we are all in the garden of Eden with Adam and that we all agree and ate the fruit with him?
The same way that all that believe in our Lord Jesus Christ,when He died on the Cross we died,resurected and ascended with Him.don't you know?

See how you people twist scripture ?

It did not say ALL were made sinners , it said MANY were made sinners.

How can a Baby who knows nothing be classified as a sinner and if truly a baby is a sinner using your logic , does that means the baby goes to hell when it dies ?

You guys way way off the mark.

" For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." - Romans 5:19

And by the way, I was not with ADAM when the ate the fruit, I did not eat the fruit myself, lol.

Adam fell by his one act, we too will fall by our acts of disobedience.

But let us say for argument sake, we inherited Adam's sin and are sinners by the mere fact of birth, kindly explain to us why God said :

"For all people are mine to judge--both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die." - Ezekiel 18:4

If you are honest, God actually calls SIN an act, not a condition.

Joagbaje:
Sin is a nature that we were born into. Through adamic sin. Every man had sinned in Adam . It's a simple bible truth. The bible didnt say "all have tendency to sin" but rather all HAVE INNED ( in Adam)

Not every man has sinned in ADAM, but most men will eventually choose sin because of the Adamic nature.

This is only true when that person gets to the age of knowing the difference between right and wrong.

@frosbel. did u write all the jargons on this thread? if i am not born a sinner and i can decide to be sinless or sinful as u said then jesus died in vain. i tut u used to believe jesus died for us all? if we are not born sinners, why did jesus die for us all? He must have died for himself cos u frosbel were not born a sinner. u asked that should a new born baby die, where will it go to? heaven of course ! Not because he was not born a sinner but because christ paid for his sin and he had no opportunity yet to say no or yes to christ redemptive work. is ur child working b4 eating? No! Not because he provided the food himself but because his father worked 4 it. A time is coming when u will refuse to feed ur child cos he has come of age. so he must work to eat. that u are no longer feeding him doesnt change his surname. he is still ur child but now he must work to eat. so we are all born sinners though at a time we will be required to choose btwn life and death but that doesnt change our surname
...all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. not that all men will sin but we have sinned already the moment u are born

^^^^

Before I respond to your comment :

1. Is SIN an act or a condition
2. If a baby or a child of innocent age dies , will him/her make 'heaven' ?

@frosbel. if sin is an act then everybody will be required to pay for his act then we wont need any jesus to die for our sin so sin is inborn. i am not a nigerian by act but by birth so also sin. i answered ur second question concerning baby that die at innocent age in my ist post so re read it

helpee: @frosbel. if sin is an act then everybody will be required to pay for his act then we wont need any jesus to die for our sin so sin is inborn. i am not a nigerian by act but by birth so also sin. i answered ur second question concerning baby that die at innocent age in my ist post so re read it

But a baby is born a sinner, how can it go to heaven ?

Sinners cannot go to heaven , I hope you know that ?

frosbel:

But a baby is born a sinner, how can it go to heaven ?

Sinners cannot go to heaven , I hope you know that ?

its obvious u didnt read my ist post. the baby that makes heaven is not a sinner cos christ paid 4 his sin already the same way u pay ur child bills b4 they come of age but when they grow u expect them to take responsibilty by themselves. is ur child a nigerian? yes! will he nid visa to enter nigeria 4rm uk? no. though he has not done anything to show he is a nigerian, he cant vote, cant pay tax yet he is a nigerian cos he was born a nigerian and his parent are paying his bills so christ has paid the bills of those innocent children . though they are born sinners but sin is not imputed to them by Grace

helpee: its obvious u didnt read my ist post. the baby that makes heaven is not a sinner cos christ paid 4 his sin already the same way u pay ur child bills b4 they come of age but when they grow u expect them to take responsibilty by themselves. is ur child a nigerian? yes! will he nid visa to enter nigeria 4rm uk? no. though he has not done anything to show he is a nigerian, he can vote, cant pay tax yet he is a nigerian cos he was born a nigerian and his parent are paying his bills so christ has paid the bills of those innocent children . though they are born sinners but sin is not imputed to them by Grace

No , the baby is innocent, even God says it in his word.

"And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad --they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it." - Deuteronomy 1:39

But of course it is JESUS who will welcome them into his new kingdom.

Where we both agree is that no MAN is capable of good without JESUS, we are inclined to sin the moment we know the difference between good and bad , we cannot be saved or admitted into the kingdom of GOD without the blood and a new birth experience.

frosbel:

No , the baby is innocent, even God says it in his word.

"And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad --they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it." - Deuteronomy 1:39

But of course it is JESUS who will welcome them into his new kingdom.

Where we both agree is that no MAN is capable of good without JESUS, we are inclined to sin the moment we know the difference between good and bad , we cannot be saved or admitted into the kingdom of GOD without the blood and a new birth experience.

nope! God didnt say they are innocent in that passage. he said they dnt knw the right or wrong. meaning they are ignorant and ignorance is not an excuse in law. ur child dnt knw right or wrong yet he is a nigerian cos he is born a nigerian. he cant claim to be american cos he doesnt know his right or left. so u are born a sinner. that u dont knw right or left doesnt make u a lesser sinner just an ignorant sinner

helpee: nope! God didnt say they are innocent in that passage. he said they dnt knw the right or wrong. meaning they are ignorant and ignorance is not an excuse in law. ur child dnt knw right or wrong yet he is a nigerian cos he is born a nigerian. he cant claim to be american cos he doesnt know his right or left. so u are born a sinner. that u dont knw right or left doesnt make u a lesser sinner just an ignorant sinner

I have heard of innocent sinner and now I hear ignorant sinner,

A sinner is someone who commits sin, stop confusing yourself.

frosbel:

Not every man has sinned in ADAM, but most men will eventually choose sin because of the Adamic nature.

This is only true when that person gets to the age of knowing the difference between right and wrong.

It is not a man's wrong deed that makes him a sinner.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

If we understand sin ,we will understand righteousness. It is not our right deed that justifies but the work on the cross on our behalf . The same way it is not a man wrong deed that make him a sinner.

Joagbaje:


It is not a man's wrong deed that makes him a sinner.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

If we understand sin ,we will understand righteousness. It is not our right deed that justifies but the work on the cross on our behalf . The same way it is not a man wrong deed that make him a sinner.

That sin entered into the world is not in dispute, what is in dispute is when does a human being become a sinner , fully accountable for his/her actions:

1. At conception
2. At birth
3. As an infant
4. As a child with a full knowledge of good and evil with all it's implications ?


Also, if you say SIN is a condition, why does the bible make statements such as ' the soul that sins shall die ' , or ' he that sins is of the devil ' or 'the child will not be responsible for the parent's sins' sins and vice versa ?

frosbel:

, what is in dispute is when does a human being become a sinner , fully accountable for his/her actions:

Being a sinner has nothing to do with actions

Sinners can not sin. Because they are sinners by nature . It's a christian who can commit sin. And he is not a sinner .

Also, if you say SIN is a condition, why does the bible make statements such as ' the soul that sins shall die ' ,

It's an Old Testament thing . According to the law. But there's a principle there . Man has sin and man has died in Adam

But asking if a child is a sinner ,yes he is. If a child is immune from the adamic sin then it will be wrong for a child to fall sick because sickness is part of the effect of sin nature. As long as children can fall sick . They are partakers of adamic fallen nature .

@frosbel:
Perhaps it is the term 'sinner" that you have a quarell with. What if we say 'inherent imperfection" rather than 'original sin'? Will that make more sense to you?

I say this because the Bible teaches that:
1. Adam was created perfect, with a natural tendency to doing good. When he sinned, he became imperfect. What I understand by this is that his nature was now corrupt, and naturally tends towards doing bad. He now has to struggle to do the right thing.

2. All his offspring have inherited this imperfection (I.e a natural tendency to wrongdoing.) Job 14:4 - Who can bring a clean thing out of something unclean? There is no one - also the verses in Romans.

3. Because of this inherent imperfections, all humans (even little kids) have a constant war with our natural inclinations towards badness. It is a war we can never win by ourselves without the additional support given to us by God's Holy Spirit.

Romans 7: 14-20: We know that the law is spiritual but I am unspiritual sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand when I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do......for I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is in my sinful nature......for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.....

In my opinion, we all have to battle against our inherent imperfections. Some have a natural propensity towards violence, or are quick tempered....they have to fight against their natural inclinations because it is sinful. That is exactly the same way a person who is naturally attracted to people of the same sex have to fight against their natural inclinations because it is sinful. Same way a person easily prone to addiction has to fight against his propensity towards alcoholism.

Natural imperfection is a doctrine taught in the Bible. The fact that some people use it to justify their wrongdoing does not mean it is a wrong doctrines.....afterall we have people here on nairaland trying to use the doctrine of grace to justify promiscuity. Does that mean we remove grace from our body of teaching.

honeychild: @frosbel:
Perhaps it is the term 'sinner" that you have a quarell with. What if we say 'inherent imperfection" rather than 'original sin'? Will that make more sense to you?

I say this because the Bible teaches that:
1. Adam was created perfect, with a natural tendency to doing good. When he sinned, he became imperfect. What I understand by this is that his nature was now corrupt, and naturally tends towards doing bad. He now has to struggle to do the right thing.

2. All his offspring have inherited this imperfection (I.e a natural tendency to wrongdoing.) Job 14:4 - Who can bring a clean thing out of something unclean? There is no one - also the verses in Romans.

3. Because of this inherent imperfections, all humans (even little kids) have a constant war with our natural inclinations towards badness. It is a war we can never win by ourselves without the additional support given to us by God's Holy Spirit.

Romans 7: 14-20: We know that the law is spiritual but I am unspiritual sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand when I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do......for I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is in my sinful nature......for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.....

In my opinion, we all have to battle against our inherent imperfections. Some have a natural propensity towards violence, or are quick tempered....they have to fight against their natural inclinations because it is sinful. That is exactly the same way a person who is naturally attracted to people of the same sex have to fight against their natural inclinations because it is sinful. Same way a person easily prone to addiction has to fight against his propensity towards alcoholism.

Natural imperfection is a doctrine taught in the Bible. The fact that some people use it to justify their wrongdoing does not mean it is a wrong doctrines.....afterall we have people here on nairaland trying to use the doctrine of grace to justify promiscuity. Does that mean we remove grace from our body of teaching.

Perfectly said Sister.

My contention is not with the definition of SIN for all men are sinners and will perish in sin without repentance and the washing with the blood of Jesus Christ.

My contention is with the definition of original sin, and my stand , which I dare is say is supported by the bible , is that we are born innocent with no knowledge of evil or good , otherwise how can we explain this verse :

"For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." - 1 Pet. 2:25

These MEN went astray from a position of innocence , you cannot go astray if you were not innocent in the first place !

However, this natural tendency to sin starts to manifest when a child reaches the age of knowledge and reason , able to differentiate between right or wrong.

We all have a natural tendency to sin , there is no doubt.

Anyway , the context of original sin which prompted me to raise this article , is for the following reasons and mostly has to do with the Calvinist and Catholic doctrines :


1. Unbaptized infants are denied entrance into heaven when they die because they are tainted with origin sin

For example , peruse this doctrine of demons , culled from a catholic web site , emphasis on the italics.

One should be worshipfully docile in this matter. God is to be adored because he punishes infants and has chosen to do so from all eternity, not because they deserve it, for he permitted their guilt only that he might punish them for the sake of his glory. It would be rebellion against the righteous God not to submit oneself to his wonderful justice and wisdom and to worshipfully join our will to his – whether it regard the merciless punishments of infants in this world or the next. We have a responsibility to protect infants from harm, though the extent of that responsibility is disputed, whether it extends to children not our own, home or abroad. But the guilt had by negligent adults does not change the providential character of God’s permission of that negligence, which he permits so that his justice should be manifest in the punishments suffered by the infants. There is nothing unjust about this. God deliberately permits infants to be burnt alive in fires and to die without baptism and to go to hell to be burnt for all eternity, all for his own glory and may he be praised for it!

Appears this has been mellowed to ( according to the Baltimore Catechism ):

Q. 632. Where will persons go who -- such as infants -- have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism?

A. Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism, cannot enter heaven; but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to Limbo, where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the happiness of heaven.

To be continued............