frosbel: ^^^^^

another heretical and unscriptural book.

chukwudi44: The catholic church did not remove any book from the bible.The canon the catholic church is using is the same canon approved by the first church council that canonised the bible.

frosbel: Good thing the Paganism has nowhere to hide, it is now rearing it's head with the arrogance that goes with it's falsehood.

We thank GOD that Jesus is alive and he alone can intercede for MAN.

The dead saints , many of who are roman gods and goddesses cannot talk, hear , speak or think.

Your prayers are going nowhere brother.



The prophets of Baal did the same thing with the following results :

"25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.” 26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it.

Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. “Baal, answer us!” they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.

27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. “Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention." - 1 Kings 18 :25-29

dokie:

if you believe that those who died in christ are dead, as you have labelled them "dead saints", then you know nothing about the fundamentals of christianity. are you a christian? or perhaps you belong to one of those sects that deny the fact that Jesus is God. let's take it from here first before we move into deeper christian issues. what is your denomination?

Ihedinobi:

Ok. You know, I was just thinking about all those books that were rejected when each canon was formed. I mean, you Romans have seven books more than us Protestants and apparently eight books less than the Egyptian (or was it Ethiopian?) Church.

So, relatively speaking, you removed eight books from the Bible, at least from the Egyptian (or Ethiopian) point of view. They could say the same thing to you that you say to us.

However, your mention of the first church council lands us in a discussion of history. So let me ask you. What council do you refer to as the first? And what was the canon it produced?

Ihedinobi:

Ok. You know, I was just thinking about all those books that were rejected when each canon was formed. I mean, you Romans have seven books more than us Protestants and apparently eight books less than the Egyptian (or was it Ethiopian?) Church.

So, relatively speaking, you removed eight books from the Bible, at least from the Egyptian (or Ethiopian) point of view. They could say the same thing to you that you say to us.

However, your mention of the first church council lands us in a discussion of history. So let me ask you. What council do you refer to as the first? And what was the canon it produced?

chukwudi44: Matthew 17:1-9

New International Version (NIV)

The Transfiguration

17 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” 8 When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.

9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

So even dead men like moses can be seen discussing with Jesus so what prevents him from interceding on our behalf

frosbel:


^^^

"As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead." - Matthew 17:9

Definition of vision ( in context ):
an experience of seeing someone or something in a dream or trance, or as a supernatural apparition:
the idea came to him in a vision

(often visions) a vivid mental image, especially a fanciful one of the future:
he had visions of becoming the Elton John of his time

Oxford Dictionary Source

chukwudi44:

Even the devil would be impressed with your scripture twisting skills.chei bible don suffer

chukwudi44:

The first canon to be called a christian bible had 73 books and not 66 nor 83.Anything other than these 73 books is not the christian canon

Ubenedictus: actually the ethiopian church can't claim d romans removed anything. The early church used the septuagint and the extra 8 books can't be found among the early church. Only one charge can be made, the ethiopean church added 8 books to their canon.

Ihedinobi:

You guys do understand the phrase, 'relatively speaking', right?

What remaind is to be sure that you are right in your claim, @chukwudi44. That's why I asked you what council you refered to and what canon it produced.

frosbel:

^^^
"As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead." - Matthew 17:9

Definition of vision ( in context ):
an experience of seeing someone or something in a dream or trance, or as a supernatural apparition:
the idea came to him in a vision

(often visions) a vivid mental image, especially a fanciful one of the future:
he had visions of becoming the Elton John of his time

Oxford Dictionary Source

16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there was borne such a voice to him by the Majestic Glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased:

18 and this voice we [ourselves] heard borne out of heaven, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Omenuko:

How can this be a vision when Peter, himself, confirms what he heard and saw in 2 Peter 1:16-18...

frosbel:

I am sure the translators knew what Jesus meant by vision hence it's inclusion.

If jesus called it a vision I belive

him.

Who do you believe?

frosbel:

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten." - Ecclesiastes 9:5

"Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."" - John 11:24

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.


[size=16pt]ALL the DEAD are currently DEAD ![/size]

shdemidemi: 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

So just to be clear...your argument is that Moses and Elijah are not in heaven or rather did not actually meet Jesus. Instead, are dead and have not interaction with anything or anyone (including God). Is that correct?

frosbel:

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten." - Ecclesiastes 9:5

"Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."" - John 11:24

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.


[size=16pt]ALL the DEAD are currently DEAD ![/size]

frosbel:

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten." - Ecclesiastes 9:5

"Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."" - John 11:24

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.


[size=16pt]ALL the DEAD are currently DEAD ![/size]

dokie:
you are either a "jehover's" witness, seventh day adventist or something of that sort. a product of an american false prophet of the 19th or 20th century. i was going to engage you in a proper theological discussion but it'll be a waste of my time. i rather spend it praying for you and your likes.Holy Spirit, i ask that you may open the eyes of the minds of these ones who attack the Church that has been guided by you all these centuries. grant them simple understanding knowledge and wisdom to the glory of God. in Jesus mighty name i pray. if my brethren are here say a big AMEN.

Omenuko:

So just to be clear...your argument is that Moses and Elijah are not in heaven or rather did not actually meet Jesus. Instead, are dead and have not interaction with anything or anyone (including God). Is that correct?

frosbel:

I think it's healthy to go back to the bible rather than use my own words

"When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust" - Psalm 104:29

Job 10:9 Remember that you molded me like clay. Will you now turn me to dust again?

Job 34:14 - 15 If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, all humanity would perish together and mankind would return to the dust.

Omenuko:

I see you managed to do the same the shdemidemi did. Scripture does not interpret its self. Please interpret what this means and answer my original question, namely:

So just to be clear...your argument is that Moses and Elijah are not in heaven or rather did not actually meet Jesus. Instead, are dead and have not interaction with anything or anyone (including God). Is that correct?

ijawkid:

And yes they were not in heaven neither were they hanging around somewhere other than there graves.......

John 3:13....
_______________________________
New Living Translation (©2007)
No one has ever gone to heaven
and returned. But the Son of Man
has come down from heaven.

English Standard Version
(©2001)
No one has ascended into heaven
except he who descended from
heaven, the Son of Man.
________________________________

I think this supports Jesus' words that what happened at the transfiguration was a vision....

For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but [size=15pt]we were eyewitnesses of his majesty[/size]. He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” [size=15pt]We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven[/size] when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

Omenuko:

I very much think you need to review those passages once more...we have in Matthew 17:1-9 a discussion of Jesus and three of his apostles going to a mountain (the Mount of Transfiguration). On the mountain, Jesus begins to shine with bright rays of light. Then the prophets Moses and Elijah appear next to him and he speaks with them. Jesus is then called "Son" by a voice in the sky, assumed to be God the Father, as in the Baptism of Jesus. Following this, Jesus then warns his apostles to tell no one until he (Jesus) is risen from the dead. I don't understand how you gather that this is a vision.

In saying vision, I assume you to mean that it did not actually happen. That you believe it was a fantasy or dream of sorts. If you believe it to be a fantasy or dream, why would God show these three men, Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus? And why would God specifically manifest this to the Peter, James and John.

Omenuko:

To further reveal that this was in fact a real event Peter goes on to write about this experience in 2 Peter 1:16-18...

Omenuko:

From the above Peter clearly states that he was an eyewitness to the event or majesty discussed in Matthew 17:1-9 and heard the voice of God. How can you then say it was a vision. Peter even begins this passage by saying he and others are not easily disposed to false stories, of which I would include dreams or fantasies or even visions. I'm happy you ended you post by saying you think...Because what you think is very much so contrary to the traditional interpretation of the transfiguration.

Ubenedictus: your "relative" statement gave rise to a "relative" answer. My response wasn't becos i misunderstood ur post but becos i wanted to show how it would be.

frosbel:


Don't pray your Pagan prayers for me, I reject them all.

I am neither a Jehovah Witness nor a 7th day Adventist.