This is a thread for history buffs to annalize and discuss the battles that changed the history of Africa. The goal here is to find which specific clash most affects the political situation of Africans today. Lets look at the tactics, weapons, arms and armor involved in these earth shattering conflicts.... let the fun begin.

The Battle of Tondibi.

Most English language sources say that Songhai army fielded around 20,000 men... but in foreign sources they figure jumps as high as 30-40 thousand.

How on earth was such a large army defeated by 2500 Arab troops armed with the most primitive of guns?

How on earth did the Morrocan cavalry defeat the better armed and more numerous Songhai horsemen?

How could so many men flee from a force that was more than then 12X their lesser?

In my opinion this was the most important battle of West African history, it shattered the last vestage of hope that Africa could field an army large enough to hold of a European power. Here is he point by point description of the battle as seen in a French Graphic:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Bataille_de_tondibi.png (my translation)

1. "From Taghaza (in morrcoo) the Saadiennne army marches to Gao. She meets the malien army north of Gao, at Tondibi."

2. "The Songhai send some cattle in stampede to cover their infantry, the cattle are repelled by the sadienne cannons."

The cattle actually then turned around... and stampeded into the malien lines. This was a very interesting and creative tactic... if it had not backfired it could have been a precedent for pre-gunpowder armies to combat muskets and cannon.

3. "The Sonhai infantry line follow the charging cattle, she is massacred by the saadienne arquebusiers."

This is another issue... the arquebus is a vastly inferior gun.. it can only fire 1 shot every 2 minutes and often had to be mounted on a pole to achieve any degree of accuracy. It doens't make sense that so many men would be "massacred" by such an ineffective weapon.

4. "The cavalry clash, but the horse mounted arquebusiers (dafug?) quickly have the advantage over the Songhai. The rest of the army routes.... a massacre"

Horse gunners with such ineffective weapons simply do not make sense....the arquebus could barly shoot on groud.. let alone on a horse. There is either some vital information about this battle we are missing or the troops of songhai were absolute cowards.

The people who invaded Songhai were not Arab. Just saying.

Another asinine thread by the infantile pseudo-educated pleep...

How so?

You created a thread with a good header - only for you to start off the body of the thread with your usual duffer-esque and asinine KKK-like rants just to talk down on one of the greatest empires ever built by mankind... The same empire that built the first university; gave us Baba Ahmed(arguably one of the greatest scholars ever; gave us Mansa Musa(the richest humanoid ever; and gave us Timbuktu(the city of legends)...

Perhaps, you aren't a git with so much self-hate you would have known that the same Moroccan forces annihilated the well equipped and powerful Portuguese army before Timbuktu... and they had about 6 lethal British cannons - something the Songhay forces didn't have... Just get a mirror - stare at the man in the mirror - and ask yourself why the little Great Britain was able to rule about 1/2 of the world... The answer to that would give you the consciousness required to overstand/understand why the Songhay forces were defeated...

Stop creating dumb threads!!

The Army of Moroccans who invaded the Songhai empire were the Arma people who were Africans themselves and not modern Moroccans we see today. Their were some Europeans with them though.

^^^Don't mind the clown - they were Moors and not Arabs... and they had superior fire power compared to the Songhai forces...

ShyM-X:


Stop creating dumb threads!!

Do you remember my old posts, how pro black they were? I am one of the most pro black posters on this forum.... what you see here is called being unbaised. In all my topics i am looking for the cold truth whether its a truth we like or not.

When i thought Afrocentrism was the truth i supported it with all the information i had at the time.. now that my information has expanded, i realize that African history is much darker and more complex than we (afrocentrics) might want to admit.

Its time you admitted that to yourself.

ShyM-X:
You created a thread with a good header - only for you to start off the body of the thread with your usual duffer-esque and asinine KKK-like rants just to talk down on one of the greatest empires ever built by mankind... The same empire that built the first university; gave us Baba Ahmed(arguably one of the greatest scholars ever; gave us Mansa Musa(the richest humanoid ever; and gave us Timbuktu(the city of legends)...

Perhaps, you aren't a git with so much self-hate you would have known that the same Moroccan forces annihilated the well equipped and powerful Portuguese army before Timbuktu... and they had about 6 lethal British cannons - something the Songhay forces didn't have... Just get a mirror - stare at the man in the mirror - and ask yourself why the little Great Britain was able to rule about 1/2 of the world... The answer to that would give you the consciousness required to overstand/understand why the Songhay forces were defeated...

Stop creating dumb threads!!

Yes, i am aware of the Morrocan victory over the Portugese, but that was a very different much larger scale battle. There Morrocans were outnumbered 2 to 1 while here they were outnumbered over 12 to one. You seem to think that just because the North Africans were using firearms that their victory in this battle makes sense.

That could not be farther from the truth.

The arquebus is the most ineffective gun imaginable... ballistically inferior to the bow. it can only fire around 1 shot per minute and the effective range is only 150 ft meters. An average man can run that distance in less than 30 seconds...

meaning that the North Africans would have only been able to fire 1 volley before the armies clashed.

With an accuracy rate of less than 1 in 4 for smooth-bore guns this means the casualties during the Shonghai charge would have been absolutely minimal.

And the "arquebusiers à cheval" don't even make sense....how could 500 horsemen with 1 shot guns defeat 12,000 heavy cavalry?

Either there is some information we are missing here or this is the most unprecidented display of cowardice in military history.

ShyM-X:
^^^Don't mind the clown - they were Moors and not Arabs... and they had superior fire power compared to the Songhai forces...

The majority of the army was actually made of white Europeans and was led by a Spanish muslim.

.... i am very dissapointed with the contribution to this thread so far.

Where is physicsQED when u need him?

And what ever happende to Odumichi... you actually remind me of him kidstraglehold.....

back in the day there where dozens of good african history posters now most of them are gone

I would have to say the bloodliest battle in African history would be the Angolan wars(And Angolan war with the Portuguese). I mean there were so many people involved in that world.

Here are is one side speaking for the MPLA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZKDeAXpaqA

Here is one side speaking for the UNITA(I think):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c35COXObeo8

pleep: The majority of the army was actually made of white Europeans and was led by a Spanish muslim.

White Europeans in Morocco in the 16th century when Europe was just getting back from the dark ages? Do you know the meaning of Morocco? Anyway, they were Moors... and the Spanish Muslim you referred to, was a also a Moor from Iberia... The only European people worth mentioning at that point in history were the Portuguese, and they were annihilated by the Moroccan forces...

Also, their superior firepower and cannons aided their victory... There was nothing great about them, they were just vandals who destroyed and burned one of the most scholastic achievements of black Africa deep inside the hinterlands of Africa... Timbuktu represented/represents one of our greatest achievements and imagine how great we would have been if the libraries, and books in Timbuktu weren't looted and destroyed... Imagine if Baba Ahmed(and all the legendary Timbuktu academic) had been allowed to continue his scholastic teachings...

That's more reason why this barbaric and scandalous battle isn't something to be celebrated, to be honest...

I posted this in the Mansa Musa thread.

KidStranglehold: One of the reasons for the Moroccan invasion was partly because of an earlier invasion on Moroccan territory by the Songhay.

In the early 14th century the rulers of Mali managed to maintain some control over the routes leading these mines from the south. By the end of the following century, the askias of Songhay, which had superceded superceded Mali as the dominant power in Western Africa, extended their rule even further in the desert and appointed a governor in Taghaza. However, in 1544, Sultan Muhammad al-Mahdi, the founder of Sa'did power in Morocco, demanded the ruler of Songhay, askia Ishaq I, to give him the mines. Askia Ishaq naturally refused to do it, and a war broke out. The Moroccans sent an army to occupy Taghaza, but the army was destroyed in the desert. As response to this, a Songhay army consisting of Tuaregs, attacked northwards and sacked the southern parts of Morocco, forcing Sultan Muhammad to flee from Marrakesh.
The above was referenced from both Markellion and Rastlivewire
http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-so-called-arab-conquest-of-africa-is-a-mythology/

P. 40 quote from Yaqut

"The king of Zafun is stronger than the veiled people of the Maghreb and more versed in the art of kingship. The veiled people acknowledge his superiority over them, obey him and resort to him in all important matters of government One year the king, on his way to the pilgrimage, came to the Maghreb to pay a visit to the commander of the Muslims, the veiled king of the Maghreb, of the tribe of Lamtuna. The Commander of the Muslims met him on foot, wheras the king of Zafun did not dismount for him."

page 44

From Ibn Sa'id

"This sultan has authority there over kingdoms such as those of the Tajuwa, Kawar, and Fazzan God has assisted him and he has many descendants and armies. His clothes are brought to him from the capital of Tunish. He has scholars around him

The region where Zaghawa wander is to the east of Manan. They are for the most part Muslims owing obedience to the sultan of Kanim to the north of Manan are the terrirory of the Kanim the Akawwar wander. Their well-known towns are in the Second Clime and they are Muslims owing obedience to the sultan of Kanim"

page 45

"There is no town worthy of mention in this section (second climate) except for Awdaghust. A mixture of Muslim Berbers inhabits it, but authority rests with the Sanhaja. There is an account of this town and its ruler in al-Bakri. It is on the line of the Second Clime in longitude 22 degrees. In the same latitude is Zafun, which belongs to pagan Sudan and whose ruler enjoys a good reputation among (other) kings of the Sudan"

Page 99 from Ibn Khaldun

"Sultan Abul-Hasan was well known for his ostentatious ways and his presumption to vie with the mightiest monarchs and adopt their customs in exchanging gifts with their peers and counterparts and dispatching emissaries to distant kings and far frontiers. In his time the king of Mali was the greatest of the kings of the Sudan and the nearest to his kingdom in the Maghrib. Mali was 100 stages distant from the southern frontiers of his realms"

ShyM-X:


White Europeans in Morocco in the 16th century when Europe was just getting back from the dark ages? Do you know the meaning of Morocco? Anyway, they were Moors... and the Spanish Muslim you referred to, was a also a Moor from Iberia... The only European people worth mentioning at that point in history were the Portuguese, and they were annihilated by the Moroccan forces...

Also, their superior firepower and cannons aided their victory... There was nothing great about them, they were just vandals who destroyed and burned one of the most scholastic achievements of black Africa deep inside the hinterlands of Africa... Timbuktu represented/represents one of our greatest achievements and imagine how great we would have been if the libraries, and books in Timbuktu weren't looted and destroyed... Imagine if Baba Ahmed(and all the legendary Timbuktu academic) had been allowed to continue his scholastic teachings...

That's more reason why this barbaric and scandalous battle isn't something to be celebrated, to be honest...

The majority of men fighting in this battle were actually Europeans who were captured and enslaved by the Moors after the "battle of 3 kings" where they annihilated the Portugese army.

The army also consisted of many English men, and those 8 English cannon Pasha brought were actually obtained with the support of Queen Elizabeth herself. The whites saw West Africa as a sort of El dorada and this invasion was made in huge part by eager European recruits.

Shymexx i respect you, you are a really good poster, but you insecurity about these issues is rediculus. I am not here to 'celebrate' what those towel-head bastards did to us, Songhai was litteraly the last hope for West Africa, and these people ruined it. They distroyed everything good in that region and created nothing to replace it....and the whole endeavor ended up being a waste of money for both the Morrocans and the Songhai.

The purpose of this thread was to figure out how exactly the Morrocans were able to win this battle, because the current narrative simply does not make sense, there is no precedent for an army to act in such a cowardly manner and i want to get the whole story.

I was hoping to get that from this thread, but there is no need now... based of extensive reserch i have been doing for the last couple of days i think i have an extreamly plausible theory for what went on that day.

And extended version of the following will probably be added on to the current wikipedia article with sources and citations:

Do you take genocide?

As kidstranglehold mentioned earlier Morroco and Songhai had been engaging is small scale conflict for several years before the invasion. This was over the Saharan salt mines that were a huge source of money for both nations. My opinion differs from his in that i believe the Morrocans started the animostity by seizing the mines at Taghaza from the Songhai Empire.

These mines, in present day Mali, were clearly initially Songhai property because once they were taken by the moors Asikia Ishak, king of Songhai, was able to cripple their effectiveness by refusing to trade with them or allow Songhai workers to operate them. Ishak then asks to moors to return the mines, and when he is refused sends an army of 2000 heavy cavalry to raid a small town in present day Morroco with express orders not to kill anyone.

At this point king mansur begins to devise plans to destroy the Songhai Empire.


Part two

The king of Morroco begins to plan his invasion of Songhai, reminding his nay-sayers that this would not be the first time a Moorish empire covered both sides of the Sahara. In his reasoning if the Almoravids could accomplish such a feat he could too.

During this time Mansur was also in communication with several European heads of state, and is known to have sent a personal letter to Queen Elizabeth mentioning this venture. The whites, happy to see the growing power of Morroco diverted to what they suspected would be a long and futile war, gave him support, encouraging their mercenaries to join the army. So many Spanish joined the expedition that the official language of amry administration was changed to Spanish

The party was led by a Spanish Enuch named Judar Pasha, (judar means fuk ) and they set off in 1590 with around 4000 men, 8 cannons and a small amount of cavalry.

Upon hearing of the advancing comming army Ishak, the King of Songhai ordered all the wells in the north of the empre to be filled with sand. His advisors who seem to have not taken the threat posed by such a small force seriously, neglected to carry out his orders... and Judar pashas force was able to continue south until eventually they hit the Niger river

.... to be continued shortly.

By this time Judar pasha's men have ran out of supplies, and the attrition rate was staggering. Out of the 4000 men who had originally made the journey it is estimated that 2000k died en route.

The remaining men who make it to Songhai are able to live of the land and obtain water from the wells that Ishaks men had failed to close. If his war council had did as he commanded it is possible that the entire Moorish force would have died in the desert.

As the remaining 2k men advance into present day mali they begin to run into small pockets of resistance, and have a number of minor skirmishes with Songhai archers... Judar pasha, the commander of the moors, orders his troops not to use their guns on these men and keep their devistating secret until the final showdown.

By the time they reach north of Goa, a small village near Tondibi, the Songhai King has assembled a motley army made mostly of tribes that are not of the dominent *mandinka* (will edit) ethnicity. These are men from his vassal kingdoms and have very little loyalty to Songhai. However, the army has a core of well trained songhai troops, but these men are kept in reserve, at the back of the main army, hopefully to keep the untrained mass in line.

Out of the entire Songhai force, it seems like no has any idea of what is in store for them. The do not know that the moors will be using gun-powder weapons. In some of the sources i read, it is mentioned that guns were known and used in the neighboring Borneu kingdoms, but the Songhai have never before encountered them.

... to be continued.

part 3: The Battle

As the Songhai army advances towards the battle field, they requisition a herd of around 1000 cattle from local farmers, probably a common military practice used to feed the army. In this instance they drive this giant herd infront of the army as they draw nearer to Tondibi.

The match up is as follows: I estimate around 10,000 infantry for Songhai, most of these were probably archers. And they were accompanied by over 13 thousand heavy cavalry armed with lances. Some sources put the Songhai Force at up the 40 thousand, and one even said a staggering 100K, but i find that highly unlikely.

The Moors have about 2000 troops, most armed with the Arquebus musket, 8 English Cannon, and perhaps a little less than 1k Cavalry.

At this point Judar Pasha starts sending messengers to Ishak of Songhai, begging him to surrender without a fight... This is said to have given Songhai a sense of over-confidence as they entered the battle. Ishak flatly refuses to surrender to this vastly smaller Moorish army and Soon the two armies were standing face to face.

Contrary to some of the sources i read, i do not believe the Songhai sent the cattle in to cover an infantry charge. Apperantly it was a common west African military tactic to send stampeding cattle alone to break up and demoralize enemy formations in the same way medieval Europeans used knights to charge infantry. The Songhai are known to have used this strategy in several other encounters with other African kingdoms.

At the point when they sent the cattle, the African army has no idea that gun-power would be involved in this battle. Because of this, they probably stayed within ranks expecting to see the moors flee before the mass of cattle almost as numerous as their 2000 man army.

But this is when the battle goes to hell.

The Morrocans suddendly start firing with all their cannons into the mass of cattle, causing an intolerable amount of stress and fear for any animal... 1000 cows suddenly turn around in a real stampede into the Songhai ranks. some sources say that several of the herd continued to charge at the moors, but in such thin numbers that the the enemy was able to part and let them pass harmlessly though.

These songhai troops, men who have lived most of their lives on a farm never hearing anything much louder than a human yell, are now hearing booms so loud that they can rupture the membrane of a human ear.

(some sources say the majority of the army routed instantly)

In addition to this cannon balls are actually bouncing all though their lines cutting of limbs and tearing apart bodies. But the men still have not routed, they still massively outnumber the morrocan army and if they make an attempt to fight they will win.

The second morale blow occurs when the Songhai cavalry attempt to charge. I do not believe the two forces ever colided, as they is no way 15k horsemen could have been beaten by 500 morrocan horse gunners or lancers "Arquebusier a Cheval" as stated in the french wiki article.

The most probable thing is that the sound of the cannons caused the horses to panic and start throwing their riders, in much the same way you would see a buck do at an American rodeo. With the advent of gunpowder weapons it became nessesary to train horse to tolerate the extreme sounds of modern combat... these horses were not trained in this way, and i think this caused them to frenzy, throwing and dragging their riders in a way that completely negated their combat effectiveness

And thus a full 50% of the Songhai fighting force was removed from the battle.

All that is left now was the infantry force of about 10,000 men, which was growing more and more demoralized each second. They still outnumbered the enemy almost 5 to one and if they charged they could have easily carried the day.

But they made one vital mistake.

Instead of charging headlong into the gun-fire, a tactic proven effective by the Scotts in the Jacobite rebellion, the 10k remaining Songhai troops elected to stay in the 150 meter arquebus kill zone firing the arrows at the enemy.

Most sources don't mention this, but it seems like the Songhai fielded a majority archer army.

As cannon after cannon smashed into the massed force, and the moors unloaded their (largely ineffectice) muskets, the Songhai army never charged but simply remained in the kill zone firing arrows... Under this onslaught, which brought much more morale damage than actual loss of life. (The arquebus is one of the least effective military guns ever used large scale, but creates terrifying sounds and sparks that horrify the enemy. The African warriors at tondibi would have thought this to be some form of magic) The many vassel tribes, who have very little loyalty to the king, begin to flee the battle in panic. Soon the well trained archer core at the reserve of the army moves to the front hoping to inspire the army to keep fighting. Only the kings Mandinka tribes-men remain now

.... kneeling down and tieing their ankles to their belts, signifying that they would never retreat.

The French source describes these men as "la garde songhai fidèle" and i believe they were probably the emperors personal bodyguard.

... Soon they are the only Songhai men left on the battle field, but despite all the horrors they never rout. On their knees firing arrow after arrow under cannon and musket fire until the moors are forced to charge in and kill them by hand


to be continued....

All of this was written by me, btw... no copy and pasting by pleep

I'll get to the aftermath of the battle TM, gotta attend to my social life!

Pleep, read pp. 60-64 of this book:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/66436883/Empires-of-Medieval-West-Africa-Ghana-Mali-and-Songhai


Or read pp. 68-73 of this newer edition of that book:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/120862776/Conrad-David-C-Empires-of-Medieval-West-Africa-Ghana-Mali-And-Songhay-Rev-Ed\\

^

The Moroccan army had reasonably good/effective firearms for that time, not the useless arquebus.

https://www.nairaland.com/1281687/ethnic-structure-cultural-diversity-around

physic what do u think?

KidStranglehold: I posted this in the Mansa Musa thread.

can you tell me what zufan is? was it another name for mali?

my black child the bloodiest war in africa was between the somalis, arabs, turks vs the ethiopians and portugese. This led to ethiopia being half muslim today, this led to the first time canons were used in africa and they were used by the somali sultan. This was a war the involved africa, (somalia and ethiopia), Europe ( portugese) and the middle east ( Ottaman empire, arabs).

^ I'm not really interested in East African history.

sorry

IMHO the top ten most 'bloodiest' battles in African history are...

1. Angolan civil war

2. Angolan War of Independence

3. First Italo-Ethiopian War

4. Dervish state vs British( you must give the Somalis credit. They were bad@sses and only lost when the Brits started using airplanes).

5. Makuria war against Arabs

6. Ashanti vs British war

7. Second Italy vs Ethiopia war(WW2)

8. Sudanese civil war

9. Ethiopian-Eritrean war

10. Congo wars

Heh...I may bump my Deadliest African/Black warriors thread.

PAPA AFRICA: can you tell me what zufan is? was it another name for mali?

I believe it was a territory/province of the Mali empire. It was another name for the Diafunu province. I sourced most of everything from this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-West-Africa-Scholars-Merchants/dp/155876304X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241409685&sr=8-1

Zafun is also called Zagun.

pleep:
Upon hearing of the advancing comming army Ishak, the King of Songhai ordered all the wells in the north of the empre to be filled with sand. His advisors who seem to have not taken the threat posed by such a small force seriously, neglected to carry out his orders... and Judar pashas force was able to continue south until eventually they hit the Niger river

.... to be continued shortly.

A little farther on four Blacks were found seriously wounded. They
were asked who had done this to them, and they said it was those
same Guzarates. On one of the Blacks was found letters that the king
of Gao had written to the principal shaykhs of these countries, in
which he told them to block the wells along the entire route so that
Jawdar's troops could not drink. He enjoined them that, should the
troops disband for lack of water, they should try to take alive all
those they could and bring them to him with all the munitions, arms,
and muskets they carried.

- anonymous Spaniard.
the Guzarates are arabs btw. so it seems if this is true they were trying to deliver the message to have the wells blocked but they were attacked by Guzarates. now thats some badluck.