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Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? - Religion (2) - Nairaland

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Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Niflheim(m): 11:34am On May 10, 2013
@nikkishyne, it was human beings that created mules(by cross breeding horses and donkeys) and wheat(a hexaploid, genetically engineered from 3 parent plants),so do you expect mules and wheat to start worshipping you?
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by plaetton: 11:36am On May 10, 2013
I think its kind of silly to hold absolute that a supernatural being exists and then advance absolutely no explanations for the origins of that supernatural being.
People who believe in god shout that all that exists must have a beginning, in in the same mouth, they shout that god exists but does not have a beginning.

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Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by kambo(m): 11:41am On May 10, 2013
Area_boy:
So when they say we are 1% different from the great apes, we are looking at nearly 30,000,000 (million) different arrangements.

The alleged ambiguity was , maybe unintentionally, injected by you.
the components are ATG's right. these are the elements in the set.
each ATG IS UNIQUE. which has taken the world so long to map all that compose man.
out of these 3 billion only circa 1% is unique to man.
and these are ,in your words, in differently arranged (combined).
which leads to the factorial(30M)!. my conclusion isnt illogical.

You dont need to be a geneticists to follow simple logic.


if this isnt the case, then you could have worded it differently.
Anyway, fac(30M) is ludicrous. okay.
correction noted.
not fac(30M) but just 30M.

if the building block of dna is ATG,
and these ATG, clump into unique patterns, to form dna,
then the possibilities are : 1.)
the 30M, ATG distinct to man - combine in only one way.
to form a larger entity,which is part of man's overall dna structure.
or they form in more than 1 way, still within the dna structure of the being called man.
great.

The causant is still RANDOMNESS.
IF IT forms in more dan one way - dyu know anoda question becomes apparent?

say you have 30Million txt books to place in a book shelf- and you have 100 sets of this textbooks (i.e 100 humans)
the 30Million text books are arrange in only 1 way for all the shelves.
The books will b placed in the same order e.g biology before chemistry,before, maths.
This leads to a selection AND PRE-ORDERING PROCESS.
because, if chemistry comes before biology, it isnt a man specie.

RANDOMNESS still has to pack the 30Million unique ATG's in a preset format.
this preset format is universal to all human,so there is still only one format.

BUT what if there was an alternative format?
because biology could have been before chemistry or vice versa.

This brings us to the point!!!--
They could have been factorial(30M) possible formats RANDOMNESS CUD have chosen from!
(assuming each of the ATG's is unique)
and it has to be unique to arrive at 30M cuz double counting wudnt be the case.

The question still looms, how did RANDOMNESS select the format in which the 30M unique
ATG's in man's dna is arranged. out of so many other POSSIBLE FORMATS . OUT OF
FAC(30M)..
the question still comes back to you for considering...
the maths is still right...
..

1 Like

Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Nobody: 11:48am On May 10, 2013
plaetton: I think its kind of silly to hold absolute that a supernatural being exists and then advance absolutely no explanations for the origins of that supernatural being.
People who believe in god shout that all that exists must have a beginning, in in the same mouth, they shout that god exists but does not have a beginning.
That is why He is beyond Human understanding.
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Niflheim(m): 11:50am On May 10, 2013
@ozegbe, I thought that you were the initiator(not ogboni,i mean the one who initiated this post) and an arbitrator,and yet, you have decided to take sides with the christians? I will tell you how I know that monkeys don't worship god,..........................because they are GAY(bonobo chimps),unless of course you believe sticking an iron rod into another chimpanzees "pooper shooter" is a form of worship!!!
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Nobody: 11:52am On May 10, 2013
Dux-01:
That is why He is beyond Human understanding.
And if He's beyond human understanding, no human can claim to 'know' or 'understand' him... God remains an idea.
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by plaetton: 11:58am On May 10, 2013
Dux-01:
That is why He is beyond Human understanding.

That makes absolutely no sense.
Why hold ,with absolute certainty, that god exists if the same god is beyond human understanding?
If something is beyond basic human understanding, then isn't it more likely that it does not exists, even as an notion?

Again if this is true, then religion is redundant and superfluous, don't you think?
If god is beyond human understanding,then organized religion is a big fraud, just like I have always held.
Do you agree?
Why build a a great monstrosity called religion over something that is, according to you, beyond human understanding?

1 Like

Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Ozegbe(m): 11:58am On May 10, 2013
Niflheim: @ozegbe, I thought that you were the initiator(not ogboni,i mean the one who initiated this post) and an arbitrator,and yet, you have decided to take sides with the christians? I will tell you how I know that monkeys don't worship god,..........................because they are GAY(bonobo chimps),unless of course you believe sticking an iron rod into another chimpanzees "pooper shooter" is a form of worship!!!
am not taking side with anybody ! Atheists are free thinkers.
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Niflheim(m): 12:06pm On May 10, 2013
@nikkyshyne,pay very close attention to this post for I shall say this only once, 1.The presence of millions of magnetite crystals in the human brain is proof that with the use of a simple electro magnetic field,a 5 year old child can hijack a 50 year old man's brain. 2.By injecting light sensitive viruses into a monkey's brain and shining a torch at the monkey's head(after the virus has multiplied),it is possible to use the torch light to control the monkey's brain(This was demonstrated at MIT)...................................Moral to the story:As long as the brain is affected by external forces,there is no such thing as freewill!!!
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Nobody: 12:18pm On May 10, 2013
Niflheim: @ozegbe,concerning the creation of the universe, did you know that humans can easily create land in water by simply dropping certain crystals in the water and the crystals start getting bigger and bigger?...................if I demonstrate this for you,does that make me an alien from an advanced civilization?

Good Nif,

But you forgot one tiny detail...'making' is not the same as 'creating'...
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Nobody: 12:20pm On May 10, 2013
Niflheim: Our planet is 70% liquid and has the shape of a ball,and yet when NASA Astronauts poured water out of a container in space,it also formed into the shape of a ball and was suspended in the air(man made minor planet?),so let us read more science and less jewish tales by moonlight(bible)!!!


...and the moral of this story is?
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Nobody: 12:22pm On May 10, 2013
nikkyshyne: You do realise humans didn't create monkeys. We created other scientific gadgets and it is only expected they obey our control.

Even amongst ourselves, an employer will sure care if an employee 'worships' him. If you fail to abide by the rules of the employer, you are out.

Same goes with a 'being' who perhaps have a greater DNA than humans. We 'perhaps' might be the works of his hands and it is only expected we worship him.

The difference between the employer/humans and the 'being' with a greater DNA might be the free will the 'being' has given us. He watches at a slow pace and pounces when the time is right.


Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by EvilBrain1(m): 12:23pm On May 10, 2013
kambo: ^^^
wow, "30 000 000 different combinations" of the dna makes man distinguishable from primates.
assuming,i'm not a scientist, the combination of these 30 million atg's or cells or watever,
is fixed for all mankind. i.e it is universal dna trait peculiar to humans,
then the possibility of selecting this combination from the 30 million possible combination
would be very small.
And the selector you say is - randomness. nature working its random picks.
the possible combinations wold be a very large number. 30 000 000!.
factorial of 30 000 000.
even a powerful hand calculator will tell give an error message if you try to generate the factorial of 100.
a wrong selection wuld have created beings probably worse than the chimps
but the choice selection , suprisingly made a wise pick...
ridiculous.
randomness doesnt possess such intuition.

Oh for fück's sake, not this nonsense argument again!

Read this post slowly, so you understand. Natural selection is not a random choice. In fact it is the opposite of random. It is a natural way of picking the most viable option out of countless possibilities.

You mentioned 30 million genes which seperate us from apes. It is true that any one of these genes could become mutated, but what you haven't recognized is that most of those mutations would result in a non-viable organism. Over 75% of all humans ever conceived end up as miscarriages mostly due to genetic mutations.

Of those mutants that survive long enough to be born, most would have diseases that render them sterile or prevent them from reaching adulthood or sèxual maturity. sickle cell disease is a mutation of one single base pair (out of 3 billion) yet even with the best medical care, most sufferers don't live past early adulthood, and very few get to have children.

Only a tiny fraction of your 4^30 million possible mutations could produce a viable adult human capable of reproducing, and that is where natural selection comes in. Living things are constantly competing against each other and its the strong that survive. If you happen to carry a mutation that puts you at a disadvantage to others (eg one that gives you a big ugly nose) you'll be less likely to have children because only ugly girls who can't get normal looking guys will be willing to slèèp with you. And if any kids you manage to have inherit your big nose gene, they'll have the same problem as well. With time your big nose gene will become very rare or die out completely.

On the other hand, the genes that gives you an advantage over others will do the opposite. Imagine a gene that makes African children resistant to malaria. With each generation, more malaria resistant babies will survive, while more of their "normal" mates die. As long as the mutation doesn't have any major disadvantages, it will become more and more common until it eventually becomes the new normal.

And that's the short version of how natural selection, genetic drift and evolution work.

Any questions?

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Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Nobody: 12:25pm On May 10, 2013
Ozegbe:
the post wasn't met for everybody. I said fellow atheist

C'mon Oze,


Let at least some outsiders in...


#Must everyone sit on the stands?
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Nobody: 12:27pm On May 10, 2013
Niflheim: @nikkishyne, it was human beings that created mules(by cross breeding horses and donkeys) and wheat(a hexaploid, genetically engineered from 3 parent plants),so do you expect mules and wheat to start worshipping you?

Lighting up on the 'create' thingy...that is an example of 'making'...
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by AtheistD(m): 12:31pm On May 10, 2013
striktlymi:

Lighting up on the 'create' thingy...that is an example of 'making'...

I agree. Mules could have come about by chance too if the circumstances were right.
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Nobody: 12:31pm On May 10, 2013
plaetton: I think its kind of silly to hold absolute that a supernatural being exists and then advance absolutely no explanations for the origins of that supernatural being.
People who believe in god shout that all that exists must have a beginning, in in the same mouth, they shout that god exists but does not have a beginning.


...and it's not silly to hold that such being does not exist? If no such being exist, how then do you explain this whole 'fiasco'?

I am here in nairaland and I know that it did not just jump out from nowhere...someone put it here...why then should a thinking man believe that the Universe just jump out from nowhere without some input from someone or something?
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by ooman(m): 12:33pm On May 10, 2013
Ozegbe: Firstly am a complete atheist (if there is anything like that). Why i was relaxing this evening reading some articles i got online, this thought came to my mind and i kept wondering and pondering on it. here is it

Scientist have made us to understand that the difference between the DNA of man and apes is just 1%. Take a good look at what humans (homo sapiens) have accomplished so far. we have built great houses, cars, aeroplanes and space rockets, we have travel far and wide outer space, recreate a full human through cloning, and so many things scientist and great men of old have achieved. what has the apes done so far? nothing. just a single difference of 1% in our genetic make up and we are miles ahead of them. In-fact it has even be proven that humans use only 10% of their brain in theirs entire life time.

here is where am heading to: if there exist a being who has a genetic make up that is 50% more advance than ours[b][/b] or even 100%, can you imagine what that being might be capable of? he may probably not give a damn about us, because as far as he is concern our IQ is too low to get in our affairs. could such a being (if there is) not be capable of creating the universe? if scientist with 1% gene different from apes can create a sample of the sun, what do you think a being who has a DNA 100% different from apes would do?

Maybe am getting it all mixed up, but if you get the point am trying to make, i will like to hear you opinions.

To begin with, there is nothing like "advanced" dna, there is only difference in dna sequences as contained in cells of different organisms.

Intelligence is a topic of intense debate in evolution. We see that even in humans, some are more brilliant than others, but still, we all have 3.2 billion base sequences in each of our cells. This implies that intelligence is not so much of a product of genetic makeup than you using your genetic ability to reason.

I cannot say anymore on intelligence at this point.
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Nobody: 12:34pm On May 10, 2013
Ozegbe:
am not taking side with anybody ! Atheists are free thinkers.

...ah, that's where you err sir...not every Atheist is a freethinker.

You at least have demonstrated your ability to hold your own thoughts but this cannot be said of every Atheist.
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Nobody: 12:37pm On May 10, 2013
Niflheim: @ozegbe, I thought that you were the initiator(not ogboni,i mean the one who initiated this post) and an arbitrator,and yet, you have decided to take sides with the christians?

Emotional blackmail!!!

Niflheim:
I will tell you how I know that monkeys don't worship god,..........................because they are GAY(bonobo chimps),unless of course you believe sticking an iron rod into another chimpanzees "pooper shooter" is a form of worship!!!

There is absolutely no Christian 'law' that is ascribed to lower animals...

Lower animals act basically on instincts but humans have a definitive thought process...
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Nobody: 12:41pm On May 10, 2013
musKeeto:
And if He's beyond human understanding, no human can claim to 'know' or 'understand' him... God remains an idea.

C'mon now musky...are you still on about this 'idea' thingy?

How do you define an idea? Do we say that the brain is an idea because we are yet to completely comprehend it? There are so many things we can't understand but it does not mean that they are ideas...
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by ooman(m): 12:41pm On May 10, 2013
striktlymi:


...and it's not silly to hold that such being does not exist? If no such being exist, how then do you explain this whole 'fiasco'?

I am here in nairaland and I know that it did not just jump out from nowhere...someone put it here...why then should a thinking man believe that the Universe just jump out from nowhere without some input from someone or something?


I agree to the bold. The fact that information exist in nature makes it certain that there must always be a material stuff of irreducible simplicity.

There is no immaterial without material so the stuff cannot be "someone" with intelligence and consciousness but "something" that responds to change, even as it is proven in nature everywhere that matter respond to change.
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Nobody: 12:43pm On May 10, 2013
Atheist:-D:


I agree. Mules could have come about by chance too if the circumstances were right.


Hallo Atheist,

You lost me in the bold there...
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Ozegbe(m): 12:47pm On May 10, 2013
striktlymi:

...ah, that's where you err sir...not every Atheist is a freethinker.

You at least have demonstrated your ability to hold your own thoughts but this cannot be said of every Atheist.
i see you becoming an agnostic in the nearest future. Keep studying with open mind
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Nobody: 12:47pm On May 10, 2013
striktlymi:

C'mon now musky...are you still on about this 'idea' thingy?

How do you define an idea? Do we say that the brain is an idea because we are yet to completely comprehend it? There are so many things we can't understand but it does not mean that they are ideas...


You can see the brain. A brain has physical evidence. An idea doesn't. Think about a 'blue horse'. I can't present that idea. I can only describe that idea to you.. So also I see God.

We don't know how the universe came about. On this forum, 'GOD' is the one who created it. We've heard terms like 'uncaused causer', 'primer mover' bandied around.. yet no one has been able to provide evidence of this God. They'd say 'look at the universe'. If 'GOD' can be uncaused, why can't the universe be 'uncaused'?

I may be slowly shifting towards pantheism though.. grin
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Nobody: 12:51pm On May 10, 2013
Ozegbe:
i see you becoming an agnostic in the nearest future. Keep studying with open mind

...nah mehn...not Agnostics but probably I would have been a Deist if I had not been through my experience in life.

Agnostics really do not want to stick their neck out...that's not fun wink
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by plaetton: 12:55pm On May 10, 2013
striktlymi:


...and it's not silly to hold that such being does not exist? If no such being exist, how then do you explain this whole 'fiasco'?

I am here in nairaland and I know that it did not just jump out from nowhere...someone put it here...why then should a thinking man believe that the Universe just jump out from nowhere without some input from someone or something?

I can make the same argument.
How can a thinking human being believe that god just jumped from out nowhere with being created from another, and then created the universe?
Get my drift?

Again again and again, if you believe with certainty that someone put the universe here, but you simply cannot explain who that someone is or the origin of that someone, then that belief is silly.
That is my point.
How can you maintain that the origin of god is beyond human comprehension and yet believe that the same invisible god exists?.
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Nobody: 12:56pm On May 10, 2013
plaetton:

I can make the same argument.
How can a thinking human being that god just jumped from nowhere and created the universe?
Get my drift?

Again again and again, if you believe with certainty that someone put the universe here, but you simply cannot explain who that someone is or the origin of that someone, then that belief is silly.
That is my point.
How can you maintain that the origin of god is beyond human comprehension and yet believe that the same invisible god exists?.


To make it worse, they claim he can interact with us through 'prayers' and a 'still small voice'.. yet everyone of them hears differently (consider the tithe and trinity issues)... isn't that proof that it's all in their head?
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Ozegbe(m): 12:59pm On May 10, 2013
striktlymi:

...nah mehn...not Agnostics but probably I would have been a Deist if I had not been through my experience in life.

Agnostics really do not want to stick their neck out...that's not fun wink
true. Agnostic are actually weak atheists
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Nobody: 1:05pm On May 10, 2013
musKeeto:

You can see the brain. A brain has physical evidence.An idea doesn't.

Agreed! But there are a lot of things the human brain can do which we are clueless about...would it then be appropriate to call these 'elusive' brain functions ideas because we don't know yet?

musKeeto:
Think about a 'blue horse'. I can't present that idea. I can only describe that idea to you.. So also I see God.

I agree about the bit on the 'blue horse' thingy but this is not the same with God...there is absolutely no evidence of your 'blue horse' to the extent that there is nothing we can associate the 'blue horse' with but for God we can see evidence of his creation...take a look at the mirror musky and there you find God's master piece.

musKeeto:
We don't know how the universe came about. On this forum, 'GOD' is the one who created it. We've heard terms like 'uncaused causer', 'primer mover' bandied around.. yet no one has been able to provide evidence of this God. They'd say 'look at the universe'. If 'GOD' can be uncaused, why can't the universe be 'uncaused'?

Now let's drop the ish of an uncaused God for a sec...Now I don't exactly know what you mean by an uncaused Universe...are you attributing the creation of the Universe to simple randomness?

musKeeto:
I may be slowly shifting towards pantheism though.. grin

Pantheism is just like Deism and I think it makes sense...but guy I want you on our side...I just hope you get the much needed experience otherwise having you won't be fun.
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Nobody: 1:11pm On May 10, 2013
striktlymi:
Agreed! But there are a lot of things the human brain can do which we are clueless about...would it then be appropriate to call these 'elusive' brain functionsideas because we don't know yet?
Let's say God created the universe. Does he have any other functions? The earth's still spinning, you know.. smiley

striktlymi:
I agree about the bit on the 'blue horse' thingy but this is not the same with God...there is absolutely no evidence of your 'blue horse' to the extent that there is nothing we can associate the 'blue horse' with but for God we can see evidence of his creation...take a look at the mirror musky and there you find God's master piece.
Well, just for the sake of argument and not wanting to lose, the 'blue horse' created me.. grin or ooman's pig..

striktlymi:
Now let's drop the ish of an uncaused God for a sec...Now I don't exactly know what you mean by an uncaused Universe...are you attributing the creation of the Universe to simple randomness?
Same thing I could ask about your GOD? When he said let there be light, was he tired of living in darkness? wink

striktlymi:
Pantheism is just like Deism and I think it makes sense...but guy I want you on our side...I just hope you get the much needed experience otherwise having you won't be fun.
Lol. So cryptic.
Re: Fellow Atheists, Have You Ever Given This A Thought? by Niflheim(m): 1:12pm On May 10, 2013
@muskeeto,you are so correct,the same god cannot be talking to all pastors and yet they come to us with different messages, these are symptoms of schizophrenia!!!

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