plaetton:
We see in the bible that each time there was a transgression of Yahweh's commandments, appropriate punishment and restitution had to be made to balance the books.
That is the law of nature. The books always have to be balanced.

A thief has absolutely no right to the boon of forgiveness unless he returns all that he has stolen and submits himself for punishment according to the laws of the land.
Same goes for every sin and every crime.

Kneeling down in supplication and asking for blanket forgiveness without punishment and restitution is a waste of time, a delusion,

Mr anony:
Lol, ok then here you go...

For a majority of the people, many of them from Ephraim, Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet they ate the Passover otherwise than as prescribed. For Hezekiah had prayed for them, saying, "May the good LORD pardon everyone who sets his heart to seek God, the LORD, the God of his fathers, even though not according to the sanctuary's rules of cleanness." And the LORD heard Hezekiah and healed the people. 2Chronicles 30:18-20

Does this satisfy you now?

Mr anony:

Jonah chapter 3

Jon 3:1 Then the word of the LORD came to Jonah the second time, saying,
Jon 3:2 "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and call out against it the message that I tell you."
Jon 3:3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, three days' journey in breadth.
Jon 3:4 Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey. And he called out, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"
Jon 3:5 And the people of Nineveh believed God. They called for a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them.
Jon 3:6 The word reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
Jon 3:7 And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, "By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water,
Jon 3:8 but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands.
Jon 3:9 Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish."
Jon 3:10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.

Now as deSika has suggested, be a gentleman, acknowledge your ignorance and tender respectfully your apologies.

plaetton: Thank you, shinealight.
I doubt if my christian friends are capable of grasping your points for what they are worth.

@Anony and co., lets examine your post closely.



Absolutely not.
But I must give you plenty of credit for your sincere efforts.
I have read this passage over and over again, and I suggest that you should do so too.
The last sentence reads " and the lord heard Hezekiah and healed the people".

So?Healed them from what?
When did the word "healed" become synonymous with the words forgave' ? , and why would the writers or translator choose to use healed instead of forgave?

What crime was committed against Yahweh and where does it say that Yahweh forgave anyone? I think you are just reading meaning into words carefully written in the bible.



Again, I urge you to read the above carefully as I have.

1st, what is very clear is that NO Crime, None whatsoever, Zero , Zilch is ever alleged to have been committed by the people of Nineveh, yet yahweh threatens them with destruction, we should assume , because of the greatness of the city.

Well, as they say, "the fear of Yahweh is the beginning of wisdom".
So the king of Nineveh, along with his people easily capitulate, took a pro-active approach to surrender by wearing sacloth, ashes and fasting as a show of penance and loyalty to the wrathful power of yawheh.

Wearing sacloth covered with ashes, combined with dry fasting for an indefinite period of time by an entire population would be the cultural equivalent of walking and living naked in the market place in my home town.
That would be the 2nd greatest punishment next to death.

So technically, if at all the people of Nineveh they had committed any crime against Yahweh(though never mentioned), one could as well say that they deserved what they got.

But here, I don't see a crime or transgression against yahweh, and therefore the issue of forgiveness can hardly apply.
Whatever greviances that Yahweh may have had with the city of Nineveh, the people outsmarted him by pro-actively inflicting themselves with deeds of great discomfort in an attempt for recompense, restitution and appeasement.

In summary, Yahweh sent Jona to Nineveh to threaten the people.

This is what we would call a SHAKEDOWN in modern parlance.

The people got the message, terrified at the prospect of getting yahweh , they cowered, and then cleverly enacted acts of appeasement at great discomfort, pains and possibly death to the weak and vulnerable members of the population.

So, I am sorry Anony and co.
Great effort . You came very close,
But sorry, no cigars.

plaetton: Thank you, shinealight.
I doubt if my christian friends are capable of grasping your points for what they are worth.

@Anony and co., lets examine your post closely.



Absolutely not.
But I must give you plenty of credit for your sincere efforts.
I have read this passage over and over again, and I suggest that you should do so too.
The last sentence reads " and the lord heard Hezekiah and healed the people".

So?Healed them from what?
When did the word "healed" become synonymous with the words forgave' ? , and why would the writers or translator choose to use healed instead of forgave?

What crime was committed against Yahweh and where does it say that Yahweh forgave anyone? I think you are just reading meaning into words carefully written in the bible.



Again, I urge you to read the above carefully as I have.

1st, what is very clear is that NO Crime, None whatsoever, Zero , Zilch is ever alleged to have been committed by the people of Nineveh, yet yahweh threatens them with destruction, we should assume , because of the greatness of the city.

Well, as they say, "the fear of Yahweh is the beginning of wisdom".
So the king of Nineveh, along with his people easily capitulate, took a pro-active approach to surrender by wearing sacloth, ashes and fasting as a show of penance and loyalty to the wrathful power of yawheh.

Wearing sacloth covered with ashes, combined with dry fasting for an indefinite period of time by an entire population would be the cultural equivalent of walking and living naked in the market place in my home town.
That would be the 2nd greatest punishment next to death.

So technically, if at all the people of Nineveh they had committed any crime against Yahweh(though never mentioned), one could as well say that they deserved what they got.

But here, I don't see a crime or transgression against yahweh, and therefore the issue of forgiveness can hardly apply.
Whatever greviances that Yahweh may have had with the city of Nineveh, the people outsmarted him by pro-actively inflicting themselves with deeds of great discomfort in an attempt for recompense, restitution and appeasement.

In summary, Yahweh sent Jona to Nineveh to threaten the people.

This is what we would call a SHAKEDOWN in modern parlance.

The people got the message, terrified at the prospect of getting yahweh , they cowered, and then cleverly enacted acts of appeasement at great discomfort, pains and possibly death to the weak and vulnerable members of the population.

So, I am sorry Anony and co.
Great effort . You came very close,
But sorry, no cigars.

plaetton: Forgiveness of sins is a grand delusion. The bible, yes the bible, makes no mention of god, a.k.a Yahweh, ever ever granting forgiveness without first exacting his own system of measured justice.

The biblical god, a.k.a Yahweh, in over 2000yrs of direct dealings with the hebrews, never ever forgave anyone without punishment.

I challange any and all christians to show anywhere in the bible where Yahweh forgave anyone or group without punishment.

dougivilla: And why would God just send a prophet to threaten or SHAKEDOWN a people that were living right and have not sinned or are not sinning against Him?

dougivilla: God is'nt a monster and would never send threats to a nation or people, simply because of your assumption that they were a 'great' nation (whatever that means)!

dougivilla: And why would God just send a prophet to threaten or SHAKEDOWN a people that were living right and have not sinned or are not sinning against Him? God is'nt a monster and would never send threats to a nation or people, simply because of your assumption that they were a 'great' nation (whatever that means)!

When God was to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, there were reasons and he sent his messanger to warn them! When God was to destroy the people in Noah's time, there were reasons and he sent His messenger to warn them. Both were destroyed for paying deaf ears to the warnings! Now, why do we assume that in this case, God was just SHAKING THEM DOWN, simply because they were 'a great nation'

dougivilla:
Jonah 3:10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God
relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.
Does the above not imply that they were evil people who repented and obtained forgiveness?

truthislight:


[color=#990000]
"But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;" (Romans 2:10-12).

"He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD." (Psalm 147:19-20).

dougivilla:
God speaking to Solomon stated inter allia in II Chronicles7:14:

if my people who are called by my name shall
1. Humble themselves and
2. Pray and
3. Seek my face and
4. Turn from their wicked ways
then Will I
1. Hear from heven and will
2. FORGIVE THEIR SINS and
3. Heal their land
Is'nt this a biblical prescription for obtaining forgiveness? Why should I disregard this from God and follow the assumption of men?

deSika: chief why are you being dubious to yourself. this is what you said


then someone showed yu were God forgave niniveh. or is that not what you are looking for. proof of Gods forgiveness.
then someone showed you where Hezekiah prayed for forgiveness, because the people had done something wrong and God forgave. what else is your problem.

what crime did niniveh commit
jonah 1:2 Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its [size=13pt]wickedness [/size] has come up before me.”
jonah 3: 10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened

their crime was their evil ways, they were forgiven. now Plaetton you asked and you have been shown. what else do you want.

quietly tender your apologies and stop proving stubborn.


peace be unto you

plaetton:


We see here that by his own words, Yahweh had no legal jurisdiction over the affairs of Nineveh.

musKeeto: Plaetton carry Christians for mind for this thread o... Let me skim through..

plaetton:

Because that is what he does. He has long history of doing such. He did it against Egypt, He did it against the city of Jericho, He did to the Mooabites and the many other Canaanite cities that were anhialiated for no specific reasons other than the fact that Yahweh wanted their lands.

So, you are wrong, Yahweh had a history of shakedowns and destruction of innocent people.



The bible shows otherwise. lol.




Actually, if you take of the your religious lenses and re-read the story surrounding the great cities of Sodom and gomorrah, starting with the war of the kings, you would see clearly it was a classic shakedown.
In this case, the twin cities refused to succumb to Yahweh's blackmail. It was about allegiance in wide regional conflict.
The twin cities refused to switch allegiance to yahweh during the war of the kings, a war in which Abraham played a vital role for yahweh to ensure a crucial victory against the armies of rival gods.
It's all there in the bible.


Thanks to the sharp mind of Truthislight,



We see here that by his own words, Yahweh had no legal jurisdiction over the affairs of Nineveh.
So, Shakedown confirmed.



Ofcourse, it is. But seeing is believing.

Because Yahweh said a lot of things and made a lot promises that he never fulfilled.
Just ask the Ancient Israelites.

dougivilla: The sin of the people of Jericho was the same
as all the inhabitants of Canaan and all others – they worshipped idols, were immoral and did evil in the sight of God. Canaan was defiled by its inhabitants.

Exodus 23:23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the
Amorites, and the Hittites, and the
Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off. 24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images...

32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. 33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee. Some of the evils that they did are listed in


Leviticus 18 Leviticus 18:3... after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.

Read verses 6 to 26 and Leviticus 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled 28 That
the land spue not you out also, when ye
defile it, as it spued out the nations that
were before you.

Moses repeatsed the warning to the generation about to go over Jordan into the promised.

Deuteronomy 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them,
after that they be destroyed from before
thee; and that thou enquire not after their
gods, saying, How did these nations serve
their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31
Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD,
which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their
daughters they have burnt in the fire to
their gods.

God brings punishment upon nations for the evil that they do. So did He for the Canaanites, Sodom and Gomorah, Jerico et al! You may need to look elsewhere for examples to butress this your ''SHAKEDOWN'' THEORY!!!

I INSIST THAT GOD IS NO MONSTER, He will never do anything without a just reason!!! Nineveh sinned and were forgiven by God without any ''COMMENSURATE PUNNISHMENT'' a la plaetton!!

Bros, its game up!! be honourable!! Stop dilly-dallying!

From_Guiriga:

Are there any Canaanite writings of Yahweh warning them against these abominations. If Yahweh told these people about the wrong of other nations, how come other nations do not have any writings of a God called Yahweh?

plaetton:

Bros, to be honest , you guys have done a marvelous job so far, and I'm that [size=14pt]close to conceding. [/size] But common sense compels me to keep shinning the light.
It's not about pride or stuborness, none of which I have.

plaetton:
You are intelligent people , and you would agree with me that " their evil ways " is much too ambiguous to be taken seriously as framework upon which punishment can be metted out.
It's like George Bush calling five Arab countries, "axis of evil" as an excuse bring war and conflict in that oil-rich region.
And exactly how does a nation repent from their evil ways? You agree with me that it would take at least two generation to weed out evil ways and enthrone rightousness in any given nation.
In case of the Israelites, Yahweh let them wander in the wilderness for 40yrs in order to weed out a generation idol worshippers. In that period, he killed 40,000 of them himself.

My point is that the idea being portrayed here that wearing sacloth, ashes and fasting for a period, somehow changed Nineveh from evil to righteousness is very infantile.
And ofcourse, the bible does not tell us what happened thereafter. Are we assuming that everyone got instantly transformed and never reverted to their "evil ways" again?
These kinds of stories are for little children and should not be taken seriously by thinking adults.

What the bible showed is a classic shakedown of Nineveh, nothing else.

The bible does not mention, but I am speculating that in the midst of all that sacloth, ashes and fasting, other deals might have been hatched between Jona and the king of Nineveh.

deSika:
you have seen the truth, but just cant easily give up just like that.


all this is what i call gragra

you asked a question about where God forgave. they showed you Jesus' statement and acts of forgiveness. you said Jesus is not God blablabla.

they showed you where God forgave isrealites who did wrong in their religous rites in the hezekiah story, you said healing is not forgiveness

they now showed you where God forgave nineveh, you now come up with 'evil' is ambigous.

what do you want God to forgive them for. to forgive them for being good people abi.

dougivilla: @plaetton, how market? I thought you were a honourable gentleman?

anyway, market don close! How sales?