I don't care if this post is deleted like the ones before it.

Bible Testimony

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Quran Testimony

[Quran 5:111]
And when I inspired the disciples, (saying): Believe in Me and in My messenger, they said: We believe. Bear witness that we have surrendered (unto Thee).

The above is the truth about the Bible that is the Word of God.

Besides, the fact that the Bible existed long before the Quran and it (quran) repeated many things recorded in the Bible is a clear pointer to the fact that the Bible is the Word of God. How would the people who wrote the Bible know the mind of God, which the quran repeated if not by God speaking to them?

The quran is mostly a repetition of the events of the Bible in an incomplete way.

pointblank 321: I don't care if this post is deleted like the ones before it.

Bible Testimony

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Quran Testimony

[Quran 5:111]
And when I inspired the disciples, (saying): Believe in Me and in My messenger, they said: We believe. Bear witness that we have surrendered (unto Thee).

The above is the truth about the Bible that is the Word of God.

Besides, the fact that the Bible existed long before the Quran and it (quran) repeated many things recorded in the Bible is a clear pointer to the fact that the Bible is the Word of God. How would the people who wrote the Bible know the mind of God, which the quran repeated if not by God speaking to them?

The quran is mostly a repetition of the events of the Bible in an incomplete way.

This appears undisputable by the muslim friends. The Bible is the WORD OF GOD. Again, since the disciples were INSPIRED, their writings must be authentic, no doubt.

But wait a minute: why did the quran oppose some of the Words of God in the Bible? Can God oppose Himself?

Something is wrong somewhere.

pointblank 321: I don't care if this post is deleted like the ones before it.

Bible Testimony

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Quran Testimony

[Quran 5:111]
And when I inspired the disciples, (saying): Believe in Me and in My messenger, they said: We believe. Bear witness that we have surrendered (unto Thee).

The above is the truth about the Bible that is the Word of God.

Besides, the fact that the Bible existed long before the Quran and it (quran) repeated many things recorded in the Bible is a clear pointer to the fact that the Bible is the Word of God. How would the people who wrote the Bible know the mind of God, which the quran repeated if not by God speaking to them?

The quran is mostly a repetition of the events of the Bible in an incomplete way.

This appears undisputable by the muslim friends. The Bible is the WORD OF GOD. Again, since the disciples were INSPIRED, their writings must be authentic, no doubt.

But wait a minute: why did the quran oppose some of the Words of God in the Bible? Can God oppose Himself?

Something is wrong somewhere.

Bible Testimony

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

the "bible testimony" about is a statement of a second generation personality, Paul. this verse itself is not a revelation, though alluding to the fact of what scriptures can as a result of; inspiration of God. who did God inspire by Angels, Prophets and sincere followers of prophets. God can not inspire a person who gives his own opinion. Paul gave his own opinions in many instances and he is the author of the timothy verse, above. thats no inspiration. inspiration is not to declare what inspiration is.

Quran Testimony

[Quran 5:111]
And when I inspired the disciples, (saying): Believe in Me and in My messenger, they said: We believe. Bear witness that we have surrendered (unto Thee).

this verse in the Quran is from God, the One Who inspires. All the statements of God is Inspiration. God is the Speaker of every verse in the Quran. in the above God says He inspired the disciples of Jesus . . .

Paul the author of timothy is not part of them. so.

for you guys to be comparing the two, it is worse than comparing apple and orange. they are completely different. the bible verse is from the one who has no authority. the Quran verse is from the Owner of Authority.

Was it God who spoke in the quran or allah?

You guys are mixing things up. Allah was worshiped by AbduAllah, Muhammad's father. The same Allah was promoted by his son, Muhammad. Muslims worship allah the same way AbduAllah was doing. When did AbduAllah's god turn to true God?

@ RoyPCain

Was it God who spoke in the quran or allah?

You guys are mixing things up. Allah was worshiped by AbduAllah, Muhammad's father. The same Allah was promoted by his son, Muhammad. Muslims worship allah the same way AbduAllah was doing. When did AbduAllah's god turn to true God?

@pointblank 321; Allah spoke in the Quran, just like Yahweh spoke in OT and Jehovah spoke in NT. I guess God didn't speak in any of them since none of them was revealed in English or to an english speaker.


pointblank 321, learn consistency because we conclude that you are bitter in your soul because your post indicate it is so. you are dealing with somebody who talks for a living. Abdullah the father of the noble prophet [sa] was not the one first to worship Allah, if thats what you wanna know. Adam [as] was among human. You car only concern about humans.

By the way can you tell me Who the father of Moses worshiped? How about the father of Jesus, who did he worship? Give me their names and the Names of Who they worshiped. and provide amply reasons for your choices. I wanna learn something from you. Hopefully, it will not be garbage.

I have Yusuf Islam [formerly Cat Stevens of the 1970s rock and roll era] saying in his london accent, my God is Allah. now put that in your new discovery book. A brit says his God is Allah, you nigerian says Allah is not God when God is an english word. Are you saying there is no english word that the english muslims can use to satisfy their need to say Allah in their own mother's tongue?

You say too much irrelevant things.

My point is, AbduAllah was said to be an idol worshiper. Isn't it? He must have been named after the 'god' in their family. At that time, the whole of Arabia was worshiping various (360) idols. Or are you saying they were muslims? You would be going against history to say they were.

Going by AbduAllah's name as an idol worshiper, allah was in his family before Muhammad was born. The same allah Muhammad met in his family, which he was worshiping and which suddenly became the true God.

When Muhammad came introducing allah, nobody asked him who allah was because they knew he was in his family. Now tell me the difference between the allah AbduAllah was worshiping as an idolater and the one you are worshiping as muslims.

Mose's father could be an idol worshiper but he did not continue in his father's religion. There was no idol named Yahweh.

Jesus as you know had no earthly father. I'm surprised you are saying this. Do you read quran at all?

Let me repeat my question: What is the difference (with proof) between the allah AbduAllah was worshiping as an idol worshiper and the one his son, Muhammad introduced, which you turned to true God?

Answer the question straight and stop the cock and bull stories you always use as your deffensive strategy.

your argument is mind bugling. i think i will stop responding after this.

however here is your problem; if you wanna stick with the Creator in English, know that all muslims in English speaking countries say God when they mean Allah, in the same way jews will mean Yahweh and the christians will mean Jehovah.

if Abdullah worshiped Allah in preIslam of his son, The Prophet [sa], king Solomon of the jews worshiped God of other people in spite of building the Temple which the christians say Yahweh denied his father David because of adultery and murder. This is according to you and your Bible.

i wonder which is a greater sin; idolatry of Solomon or adultery of his father? I cant figure out your rational.


you dont know anything about faith of the father of Moses, prior to his son bringing guidance to his community. before that they as slaves may have been misguided. the proof is their worship of the golden calf the moment they had a chance to freely worship, in spite of Yahweh's Mercy on them. they might have been better in the sight of Yahweh because they were oppressed by tyranny of the black egptians and they were benefiting from being from the blood of Abraham as a result, pharaoh and his support were destroyed. you need to be better than this if you gonna be one of the leaders of tomorrow. as it is now, this your thinking is it gets as he be.


i am not unmindful of the position of Jesus. but you people never let us forget that his father is Joseph, while Jesus brought guidance to the misguided people of israel ;you formulated 2 different genealogy on him alone. people who make up things of guidance as you people are doing, who could possibly accept anything from you?


Only if you are not aware be the reason you will say that The Kaaba was initially built to house idols or worship any. if the original builder was not an idolater, then guidance was once in Makka prior to Muhammad [sa] reviving it. i would as a muslim will not build a church or synagogue but mosque just like monotheist 'original' builder of the Kaaba will not to have built no building for any idol. his Allah must have been known as the Unseen God before pagan crawled into the lives of the arabs much much later. it is this idolatry that led the arabs to house their idols in Kaaba thinking each shall bring them closer to Allah since it in a known sanctified sanctuary in the same way today that chritians say Jesus brings them to Jehovah. indeed, the christian errs by saying son of Mary is God.

@ RoyPCain

I would say I'm not disappointed in you. It is usual of you to tell irrelevant stories. It would have been better you didn't respond to a thread you could not continue to its conlusion.

You failed to answer my question. 'What is the difference between the allah AbduAllah was worshiping as an idol and the allah introduced by his son, Muhammad?'

To me, there is no difference. It is the continuation. There is no difference in the mode of worship of AbduAllah's allah as a pagan. He worshiped allah in Kaaba the way muslims do today.

I want to leave you with this: You worship in the same way and in the same place, doing all they were doing in the pre-islamic period. Nothing has changed except the name islam. Idol and God cannot be worshiped the same way.

RoyPCain: your argument is mind bugling. i think i will stop responding after this.
however here is your problem; if you wanna stick with the Creator in English, know that all muslims in English speaking countries say God when they mean Allah, in the same way jews will mean Yahweh and the christians will mean Jehovah.
if Abdullah worshiped Allah in preIslam of his son, The Prophet [sa], king Solomon of the jews worshiped God of other people in spite of building the Temple which the christians say Yahweh denied his father David because of adultery and murder. This is according to you and your Bible.
i wonder which is a greater sin; idolatry of Solomon or adultery of his father? I cant figure out your rational.
you dont know anything about faith of the father of Moses, prior to his son bringing guidance to his community. before that they as slaves may have been misguided. the proof is their worship of the golden calf the moment they had a chance to freely worship, in spite of Yahweh's Mercy on them. they might have been better in the sight of Yahweh because they were oppressed by tyranny of the black egptians and they were benefiting from being from the blood of Abraham as a result, pharaoh and his support were destroyed. you need to be better than this if you gonna be one of the leaders of tomorrow. as it is now, this your thinking is it gets as he be.
i am not unmindful of the position of Jesus. but you people never let us forget that his father is Joseph, while Jesus brought guidance to the misguided people of israel ;you formulated 2 different genealogy on him alone. people who make up things of guidance as you people are doing, who could possibly accept anything from you?
Only if you are not aware be the reason you will say that The Kaaba was initially built to house idols or worship any. if the original builder was not an idolater, then guidance was once in Makka prior to Muhammad [sa] reviving it. i would as a muslim will not build a church or synagogue but mosque just like monotheist 'original' builder of the Kaaba will not to have built no building for any idol. his Allah must have been known as the Unseen God before pagan crawled into the lives of the arabs much much later. it is this idolatry that led the arabs to house their idols in Kaaba thinking each shall bring them closer to Allah since it in a known sanctified sanctuary in the same way today that chritians say Jesus brings them to Jehovah. indeed, the christian errs by saying son of Mary is God.

bros e,sorry o,u r nt making any sense with this ur post...dis is aw u ppl deliberately derail threads!
D Op was asking u a question and ur talkin abt Jesus' father,solomon and moses!
U wer talking abt D golden calf dt was made for d israel,were they worshiping it before? Do u knw aw it came abt?
Same thing with d idols which solomon was made to worship? Were d idols his god before? Do u knw aw d idol came abt?
Pls stop dis ur 'beating abt d bush' and answer d Op question jawe!

pointblank 321: @ RoyPCain

I would say I'm not disappointed in you. It is usual of you to tell irrelevant stories. It would have been better you didn't respond to a thread you could not continue to its conlusion.

You failed to answer my question. 'What is the difference between the allah AbduAllah was worshiping as an idol and the allah introduced by his son, Muhammad?'

To me, there is no difference. It is the continuation. There is no difference in the mode of worship of AbduAllah's allah as a pagan. He worshiped allah in Kaaba the way muslims do today.

I want to leave you with this: You worship in the same way and in the same place, doing all they were doing in the pre-islamic period. Nothing has changed except the name islam. Idol and God cannot be worshiped the same way.

You are dealing with a semi literate old man that can't compose a correct paragraph. He also can't see past his Quran. The question you asked him, he will never answer it but go around in circles and circles. I asked him the following and he never responded:

1. Can he prove outside the Quran how Adam was 90 feet tall? He response was I can't disprove it so it is right . I responded and told him that all large animals have fossils and skeletal structures that we can see today, the dinosaur, the whales, the mammoth and elephant. If indeed Adam was 90 feet tall, we would have some fossil evidence. He responded by saying the Bible said in those days there were giants. I reminded him that he can't quote the Bible because he doesn't believe in it and it is "corrupted" as muslim claimed. He later said, Eve, Cain and Abel were 90 feet tall as well . I told him we are all product and off-spring of Adam, and the tallest living human isn't more than 12 feet tall - HE IS YET TO RESPOND

2. The Quran claimed the earth was flat === The went around in circles again

The guy is a laughing stock. He said his son went to Georgia Tech; I told him I schooled at Georgia Tech as well and what was his son's name - he hasn't responded

alexis:

You are dealing with a semi literate old man that can't compose a correct paragraph. He also can't see past his Quran. The question you asked him, he will never answer it but go around in circles and circles. I asked him the following and he never responded:

1. Can he prove outside the Quran how Adam was 90 feet tall? He response was I can't disprove it so it is right . I responded and told him that all large animals have fossils and skeletal structures that we can see today, the dinosaur, the whales, the mammoth and elephant. If indeed Adam was 90 feet tall, we would have some fossil evidence. He responded by saying the Bible said in those days there were giants. I reminded him that he can't quote the Bible because he doesn't believe in it and it is "corrupted" as muslim claimed. He later said, Eve, Cain and Abel were 90 feet tall as well . I told him we are all product and off-spring of Adam, and the tallest living human isn't more than 12 feet tall - HE IS YET TO RESPOND

2. The Quran claimed the earth was flat === The went around in circles again

The guy is a laughing stock. He said his son went to Georgia Tech; I told him I schooled at Georgia Tech as well and what was his son's name - he hasn't responded

Thanks for your observations.

Although RoyPCain is a gentleman who doesn't believe in violence unlike most muslims, his only problem is RIGMAROLE and going in circles as you have rightly observed.

I also noticed he doesn't allow any thread or post untouched whether he has an idea or not. He just would say something off-point.

pointblank 321:

Thanks for your observations.

Although RoyPCain is a gentleman who doesn't believe in violence unlike most muslims, his only problem is RIGMAROLE and going in circles as you have rightly observed.

I also noticed he doesn't allow any thread or post untouched whether he has an idea or not. He just would say something off-point.

A gentleman is honest to say the least. I support him for his stand against violence

pointblank 321: I don't care if this post is deleted like the ones before it.

Bible Testimony

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable

A- for doctrine,

B- for reproof,

C- for correction,

D- for instruction in righteousness:

just curious. under which heading does judges 16:1 fall under?
New Living Translation (©2007):
"One day Samson went to the Philistine
town of Gaza and spent the night with a
prostitute."

is it your doctrine or instruction because it doesnt contain any reproof or correction?


and if you apply this pauline test to your entire bible, how much "scripture" would you have to expunge?

cleanvessel:

This appears undisputable by the muslim friends. The Bible is the WORD OF GOD. Again, since the disciples were INSPIRED, their writings must be authentic, no doubt...

Luke tells you clearly he wasn't inspired!
he wrote because everyone else was writing and it seemed like a good idea for him to also write.
- read the first three verse of the book of Luke

@ F00028

I wonder how you reason. You have no answer to muslims worshiping Abdu-Allah's idol and started saying unreasonable things. When did his idol turn to the true God? None of you could give any answer. SO MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS IN ISLAM.

What do you say should have happened for Samson's action? Was he a religious leader? Even your prophet did a number of things that when mentioned, muslims can destroy a whole city for it. Why are you people covering his deed if he did well? If you who are not prophets know he did what should not be told the people, you can imagine how the Holy God would feel about him.

Luke: Your allah says Jesus disciples were inspired and you are saying it is not true. You know more than your allah. Very good of you. Go on.

@Cleanvessel
2tim 3:16 was your OP.
YOU choose to lead with it and it exposes fundamental flaws in your book- deal with it.

if accept 2tim 3:16 as inspired, then every other verse that doesn't fall under those four heads is not "scripture" and should be discarded. how much of the bible would you have left?

cleanvessel: @ F00028
I wonder how you reason. You have no answer to muslims worshiping Abdu-Allah's idol...

the answer is simple: muslims do not worship any idol. we worship the One True God, the Eternal Absolute, Who does not beget and was not begotten, and theres nothing else in His likeness.

cleanvessel:
What do you say should have happened for Samson's action? Was he a religious leader?

-if you see nothing wrong with sleeping with prostitutes just say so.

-2tim 3:16 says "ALL scripture" not just scripture about religious leaders.

cleanvessel:
Luke: Your allah says Jesus disciples were inspired and you are saying it is not true. You know more than your allah. Very good of you. Go on.

luke says he was not inspired!
are you sure the writer was a disciple of Jesus? do you know his history?

F00028: @Cleanvessel
2tim 3:16 was your OP.
YOU choose to lead with it and it exposes fundamental flaws in your book- deal with it.

if accept 2tim 3:16 as inspired, then every other verse that doesn't fall under those four heads is not "scripture" and should be discarded. how much of the bible would you have left?


the answer is simple: muslims do not worship any idol. we worship the One True God, the Eternal Absolute, Who does not beget and was not begotten, and theres nothing else in His likeness.

2tim 3:16 says "ALL scripture" not just scripture about religious leaders.


luke says he was not inspired!
are you sure he was a disciple? do you know his history?

Luke never told you he was not inspired. You must have misconstrued his statement. Even if he said he was not inspired and your allah said he was, it means your allah is not all-knowing.

You created an impression that your quran is incomplete by doubting Luke being a disciple. Why should it mention Jesus disciples without mentioning their names? Was allah not sure of who the disciples were as you (muslims) are today? This further confirms allah was not the God who sent Jesus. You can't tell me the true God did not know the names of Jesus disciples who He inspired.

You are not right to say allah is the true God if you cannot differentiate between the allah Abdu-Allah was worshiping as a pagan and the one muslims worship in islam, unless you are saying the idol of Abdu-Allah is your true God. You worship your allah the same way Abd-Allah worshiped his idol. In this situation, how would a reasonale person claim is worshiping the true God as a muslim if not for spiritual manipulation. The Devil is very wise indeed.

cleanvessel:
Luke never told you he was not inspired. You must have misconstrued his statement.

New Living Translation. luke 1:
1 Many people have set out to write accounts about the events that have been fulfilled among us.
2 They used the eyewitness reports circulating among us from the early disciples.
3 Having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I also have decided to write a careful account for you...

oya come construe am for me

cleanvessel: Even if he said he was not inspired and your allah said he was, it means your allah is not all-knowing.

please show where God in the Qur'an talks about any "luke".

cleanvessel: You worship your allah the same way Abd-Allah worshiped his idol.

proof?

F00028:
New Living Translation. luke 1:
1 Many people have set out to write accounts about the events that have been fulfilled among us.
2 They used the eyewitness reports circulating among us from the early disciples.
3 Having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I also have decided to write a careful account for you...

oya come construe am for me


please show where God in the Qur'an talks about any "luke".

proof?

Hold on, I will give u answers when I have the chance, hopefully today.

F00028:
New Living Translation. luke 1:
1 Many people have set out to write accounts about the events that have been fulfilled among us.
2 They used the eyewitness reports circulating among us from the early disciples.
3 Having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I also have decided to write a careful account for you...

oya come construe am for me


please show where God in the Qur'an talks about any "luke".



proof?

Luke was a physician who later became one of the disciples. He was correct to say he relied on the testimony of the older disciples in his writing. If you will be sincere to yourself, if somebody gets into a new setting, he will know what has been happening before he gets there especially if the fellow is inquisitive.

Apart from Luke, which name of Jesus disciple did allah mention in the quran? None because he was not sure of their names. Is that God?

You said you need a proof on the truth that what was done to worship idols is what you muslims do today to worship your allah:

According to the hadith, the Ka'aba in Mecca was a center of idol-worship, with the Ka'aba housing 360 idols:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Masud: The Prophet entered Mecca and (at that time) there were three hundred-and-sixty idols around the Ka’aba. He started stabbing the idols with a stick he had in his hand and reciting: "Truth (Islam) has come and Falsehood (disbelief) has vanished."
Sahih Bukhari 3:43:658

Prophet Muhammad discarded the 360 idols but retained for Islam, the Ka’aba with its Black Stone, justifying it with the claim that Abraham and Ishmael originally constructed it. However, there is no historical or archaeological evidence for the existence of the Ka’aba beyond a few hundred years before Muhammad's lifetime. In fact, Muhammad's own words disprove any connection he was attempting to make between Abraham, Ishmael and the Ka’aba.

The Qur'an says Abraham built it:
Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).
Qur'an 2:125

Muhammed says it was built 40 years prior to the Temple at Jerusalem:
Narrated Abu Dhaar: I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Which mosque was built first?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Haram." I asked, "Which (was built) next?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Aqs-a (i.e. Jerusalem)." I asked, "What was the period in between them? He replied, forty years.
Sahih Bukhari 4:55:636

The Temple at Jerusalem was built by Solomon around 958-951 BC. This implies that if Muhammad were to be believed, the Ka’aba must have been built approximately 998-991 BC. But Abraham lived around 2000 BC and both Abraham and Ishmael would have been dead by then.

If Muhammad is correct, then the Qur’an [and therefore Allah] is wrong. But if the Qur’an is correct in stating that Abraham and Ishmael built the Ka’aba, then Muhammad and the sahih hadith is wrong.

The Ka’aba has nothing to do with Abraham or Ishmael.

It has a wholly pagan heritage. Egyptian Professor and foremost authority on Arabic literature, Dr. Taha Husayn, said the following:

The case for this episode is very obvious because it is of recent date and came into vogue just before the rise of Islam. Islam exploited it for religious reasons.[1]

Also, according to sahih hadith, Muhammad even considered dismantling it:
Narrated Aswad: Ibn Az-Zubair said to me, "Aisha used to tell you secretly a number of things. What did she tell you about the Ka'ba?" I replied, "She told me that once the Prophet said, 'O 'Aisha! Had not your people been still close to the pre-Islamic period of ignorance (infidelity)! I would have dismantled the Ka'ba and would have made two doors in it; one for entrance and the other for exit." Later on Ibn Az-Zubair did the same.
Sahih Bukhari 1:3:128

Worship at the Ka’aba and the kissing of the Black Stone are just the first of many practices adopted from 7th century paganism and repackaged within monotheistic Islam.

Veneration of the Black-stone

The pagan gods of pre-Islamic Arabia were worshipped in the form of rectangular stones or rocks. For example, the pagan deity 'Al-Lat', mentioned in Qur'an 53:19, and believed by pre-Islamic pagans to be one of the daughters of Allah, was once venerated as a cubic rock at Ta'if in Saudi Arabia. An edifice was built over the rock to mark it apart as a house of worship.

Al-lat stood in al-Ta'if, and was more recent than Manah. She was a cubic rock beside which a certain Jew used to prepare his barley porridge (sawiq). Her custody was in the hands of the banu-'Attab ibn-Malik of the Thayif, who had built an edifice over her. [...]She is the idol which God mentioned when He said, "Have you seen Al-lat and al-'Uzza (Surah 53:19)?[2]

Kitab Al-Asnam (The Book of Idols), p 14
"A principal sacred object in Arabian religion was the stone, either a rock outcropping or a large boulder, often a rectangular or irregular black basaltic stone… of numerous baetyls, the best known is the Black-stone of the Ka’aba at Mecca which became the central shrine object in Islam".[3]
Encyclopedia Britannica

There is no denying that the Black Stone was one among many stones and idols venerated at the Ka’aba by the pre-Islamic pagans. The Black Stone was kissed during pre-Islamic pagan worship. Though Muhammad threw out 360 other objects at the Ka’aba, he retained this Black Stone and continued the practice of kissing it. It is this same stone that the pre-Islamic pagans once kissed, that Muslims kiss today when visiting Mecca.

Praying 5 Times Towards Mecca

Pagans prior to Islam would pray five times per day towards Mecca.[4] Muhammad retained for Islam, this pre-Islamic practice, sanctioning it with a story of a night trip to heaven on a mythical beast called al-Buraq. In heaven, the Hadith tells us that Allah demanded 50 prayers per day per Muslim. Upon advice from Moses, Muhammed bargains with Allah and successfully reduces it to five prayers per day.

Zoroastrians are also expected to recite their (kusti) prayers at least five times a day having first cleansed themselves by washing (ablution). So even today, this is not a practice unique to Islam.[5] But, contrary to the Muslims, they pray in the direction of the Sun (at each time of the day) and/or of the Holy Fire (if they are in a Fire Temple). [6]

Fasting on the 10th of Muharram

Muhammad's pagan tribe, the Quraish, fasted on the 10th of Muharram. Though optional, Muhammad retained this pagan practice too.
Narrated 'Aisha: 'Ashura' (i.e. the tenth of Muharram) was a day on which the tribe of Quraish used to fast in the pre-lslamic period of ignorance. The Prophet also used to fast on this day. So when he migrated to Medina, he fasted on it and ordered (the Muslims) to fast on it. When the fasting of Ramadan was enjoined, it became optional for the people to fast or not to fast on the day of Ashura.
Sahih Bukhari 5:58:172

Tawaf between Safa and Marwa

Doing Tawaf between Safa and Marwa is an Islamic ritual associated with the pilgrimage to Mecca. Safa and Marwa are two mounts, located at Mecca. This ritual entails Muslims walking frantically between the two mounts, seven times. This was originally a pagan pre-Islamic practice. Muhammad retained it for Islam, sanctioning it with yet another Qur'anic revelation.[7]
Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (2.158)
Sahih Bukhari 2:26:710

Clearly, the Hadith testifies that Muhammad merely adopted this pagan ceremony from the pre-Islamic "period of ignorance" and justified it with yet another convenient Qur'anic revelation.

A myth was also created about Hagar running between these two mounts in search of water until she found the Zamzam Well. Even if this story were true, why is this reason for people to run up and down between two mounts to please a god? This myth was not created to further justify the ritual, but for another reason; Muhammad was trying to market Zamzam, owned by his family, as a money-making venture.

Requirement of Ihram

Ihram is a state a Muslim enters into for his pilgrimage to Mecca. It involves a series of procedures like ritual washing, wearing 'Ihram garments', etc. Ihram was originally a pagan requirement for worshipping idols during pre-Islamic times. Muhammad retained this practice for Islam. Muslims assume Ihram to perform the Hajj or Umrah.
Narrated 'Urwa: I asked 'Aisha : ...But in fact, this divine inspiration was revealed concerning the Ansar who used to assume “Ihram” for worshipping an idol called “Manat” which they used to worship at a place called Al-Mushallal before they embraced Islam, and whoever assumed Ihram (for the idol), would consider it not right to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa.
Sahih Bukhari 2:26:706

Circumambulation 7 Times

In the Islamic ritual of Tawaf, Muslims go around the Kaaba 7 times. In the Hindu marriage rite of Saptapadi, the married couple goes around a fire also 7 times. In both of these rituals, religious phrases are repeated during the circumambulation.

Circumambulation is to go in circles around a particular object. In Islam, worshippers and pilgrims do this around the Ka'aba at Mecca. Pre-Islamic pagans used do it to please the moon god Hubal, the 360 deities and Allah (who was merely one among the many deities worshipped there). Muhammad himself used to do it, even before the 360 idols inside the Ka'aba were removed.

Judaism and Christianity (the religions of those who are considered People of the Book) do not practice ritual circumambulation to please God. Two other faiths which do are Hinduism and Buddhism, religions older than Islam and accused by Islam of “paganism” and practicing idolatry.
[edit] Crescent Moon Symbol

Hubal was the moon god worshiped at the Ka’aba. The crescent moon was Hubal’s symbol. Muhammad's pagan grandfather Abd al-Muttalib almost slaughtered Muhammad's father Abdallah at the Ka’aba, to Hubal. From Ibn Hisham:
An arrow showed that it was 'Abdullah to be sacrificed. 'Abdul-Muttalib then took the boy to Al-Ka'bah with a razor to slaughter the boy. Quraish, his uncles from Makhzum tribe and his brother Abu Talib, however, tried to dissuade him. They suggested that he summon a she-diviner. She ordered that the divination arrows should be drawn with respect to 'Abdullah as well as ten camels. … the number of the camels (finally) amounted to one hundred. … They were all slaughtered to the satisfaction of Hubal.[8]

The Ka’aba, Islam's holiest shrine, has been a place where such pagan human sacrifices and slaughters have taken place for Hubal. When Muhammad founded Islam, he discarded Hubal. At the Battle of Badr, his enemy Abu Sufyan praised the high position of moon god Hubal, saying "O Hubal, be high". Muhammad asked his followers to yell back, "Allah is higher".[9]

Is moon-god Hubal no longer "higher"? Is Islam completely free of the 'moon' influence? Take a closer look at mosques all over the world, and you are likely to find Hubal’s symbol, the crescent moon, positioned at a high point of the mosque. As with the Cross for Christianity and the Star of David for Judaism, the Crescent moon is today a universal symbol for Islam.

It may not be a deliberate effort to worship Hubal. And yet, interestingly, through Islam, the pagan prayer of Muhammad's enemy Abu Sufyan at Badr has been answered, "O Hubal be high".

With these I believe your quest will be satisfied.

@mintayo;

bros e,sorry o,u r nt making any sense with this ur post...dis is aw u ppl deliberately derail threads!
D Op was asking u a question and ur talkin abt Jesus' father,solomon and moses!
U wer talking abt D golden calf dt was made for d israel,were they worshiping it before? Do u knw aw it came abt?
Same thing with d idols which solomon was made to worship? Were d idols his god before? Do u knw aw d idol came abt?
Pls stop dis ur 'beating abt d bush' and answer d Op question jawe!

I do not read shorthands too well. but i kinda get that you are kind of not wanting to say idolatry of children of israel in worshiping golden calf and the accusation of the idol worship of king solomon is not the same like that of the preIslamic of the prophet [sa]. the children of israel were not the first people to know that God Who is One and the Only Creator exists. there were scores of nations before them with that same understanding because the previous prophets [as] preached it. the arabs like it or not have blood ties with father Abraham [as] who knows God is One so much so that he was declared Personal Friend of God. the makkan arabs in spite of their later idolatry because the first arabs couldnt have been an idolater because the first man was not and no one was born as an idolater, the arabs never had an idol named after God because they know He is Invisible, hence Unrepresentable. my statement to the question is adequate because unless one can prove that the first builder of the Kaaba was an idolater, it is ignorance to assume that he was or built it with intent to house idol, especially when you cant categorically name the idol that he brought in upon his building it. yet you will argue that The temple of solomon was not built for idolatry which you will erroneously argue solomon dabbled in later.


since i do not argue in a very dry fashion, others will see something good in my argument, just like some people may take in what you wrote in shorthand, above, making me scratch my head wondering what you are saying. pagans named their children after the Unseen God all the time. the yoruba pagans do till date. a pagan believes in God, but worships a god to take him to Him or bringing him closer he think, kinda what the christians do with Jesus thinking they are getting to Jehovah by this way. this is monotheistic paganism.

@cleanvessel
I have seen your "proof" but before we bury ourselves in it which is what I suspect you want us to do . please addresses my initial query:
Bible Testimony
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of
God, and is profitable
A- for doctrine,
B- for reproof,
C- for correction,
D- for instruction in righteousness:

F00028:

just curious. under which heading does judges 16:1 fall under?
New Living Translation (©2007):
"One day Samson went to the Philistine
town of Gaza and spent the night with a
prostitute."

is it your doctrine or instruction because it doesnt contain any reproof or correction?


and if you apply this pauline test to your entire bible, how much "scripture" would you have to expunge?

F00028: @cleanvessel
I have seen your "proof" but before we bury ourselves in it which is what I suspect you want us to do . please addresses my initial query:
Bible Testimony
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of
God, and is profitable
A- for doctrine,
B- for reproof,
C- for correction,
D- for instruction in righteousness:

What do you say is your problem with 2 Tim. 3:16?

If after you have seen clearly from islamic sources that you are into idol worship and you have no regret, it is a waste of time still discussing with you. Your case does not require conviction alone, you also need deliverance from satanic bondage.

cleanvessel:
What do you say is your problem with 2 Tim. 3:16?

F00028:
just curious. under which heading does judges 16:1 fall under?
New Living Translation (©2007):
"One day Samson went to the Philistine
town of Gaza and spent the night with a
prostitute."

is it your doctrine or instruction because it doesnt contain any reproof or correction?

and if you apply this pauline test to your entire bible, how much "scripture" would you have to expunge?

cleanvessel:
If after you have seen clearly from islamic sources that you are into idol worship and you have no regret, it is a waste of time still discussing with you. Your case does not require conviction alone, you also need deliverance from satanic bondage.

If after you have seen clearly from your own bible that it is fundamentally flawed and you have no regret, it is a waste of time still discussing with you. Your case does not require conviction alone, you also need deliverance from satanic bondage.