@lady
Just becos i don't accept a doctrine that as been presented as the word of God does not mean i am not a true believer, even though the bible is a spiritual book it was written for the understanding of Man and not in parables Numbers 12 : 8, when you have to depend on another man be it pastor or what ever, you risk that person foistering his opinion/ doctrine on you and him telling you it is the word of God. Anything that can not be substantiated in the bible is not acceptable by me and i would also not accept manipulative interpretations that is why i have three versions of the bible so to help me understand what the scriptures say better. The truth is that there is more human doctrine in the church today than the true word of God. As for spirituality, my spirit tells me in very clear terms that the church as led us astray, even then i am a very strong bible believing christian. I just try to seperate God's word from Man's doctrine presented as the word of God.

if looking at a woman lustfully is a sin, then  the real act itself cannot be justified as not sin

chrisja:

if looking at a woman lustfully is a sin, then the real act itself cannot be justified as not sin

we need mature posting here please - so now having sex is sin?

Back to Jagoon

I hear you loud and clear on Leviticus 18, but do you regard the passage to be the[i] exhaustive [/i] list/description of sexual immorality/sins?

Note it does not mention sex with prostitutes, nor sexual orgies which are condemned in other portions of scripture. Is it possible that your premise of basing interpretations of Paul's letter on this ONE passage is wrong? That this one passage does not cover ALL forms of sexual sin?

Just because i don't accept a doctrine that as been presented as the word of God does not mean i am not a true believer, even though the bible is a spiritual book it was written for the understanding of Man and not in parables Numbers 12 : 8, when you have to depend on another man be it pastor or what ever, you risk that person foistering his opinion/ doctrine on you and him telling you it is the word of God. Anything that can not be substantiated in the bible is not acceptable by me and i would also not accept manipulative interpretations that is why i have three versions of the bible so to help me understand what the scriptures say better. The truth is that there is more human doctrine in the church today than the true word of God. As for spirituality, my spirit tells me in very clear terms that the church as led us astray, even then i am a very strong bible believing christian. I just try to seperate God's word from Man's doctrine presented as the word of God.

Forget man's doctrine, I could care less for that. What I believe is what I have read in the Bible.

I am talking about you contradicting your own self. You gave a definition of fornication and out your own definition you didn't find satisfaction.

I would tell you that fornication is not a sin, just so that you can stop wasting everybody's time, but that wouldn't be right of me, I know better.

So hey, look, you don't need us to let you know whether or not it is a sin. You have your mind made up, you want to have sex with your girl, go ahead. It's up to you. God gave us free will. You are not in bondage. Make your decisions, but please stop looking for justification from us, you won't get it.

Next thing now we will see people trying to justify homosexuality from the Bible.

Na wa o.

I went back and red something that caught me eye

when you have to depend on another man be it pastor or what ever, you risk that person foistering his opinion/ doctrine on you and him telling you it is the word of God

Come were the apostles God and did they not teach Christians. The Bible wasn't in circulation before it was complied. Infact letters of the Bible talk about the teachings of the apostles, so are you now saying that the apostles put their own "human opinion" in there?

Anything that can not be substantiated in the bible is not acceptable by me and i would also not accept manipulative interpretations that is why i have three versions of the bible so to help me understand what the scriptures say better.

How did this Bble get to be the Word of God as you know it today?

no mind me o am just looking for trouble. lol.

debosky:

Back to Jagoon

I hear you loud and clear on Leviticus 18, but do you regard the passage to be the[i] exhaustive [/i] list/description of sexual immorality/sins?

Note it does not mention sex with prostitutes, nor sexual orgies which are condemned in other portions of scripture. Is it possible that your premise of basing interpretations of Paul's letter on this ONE passage is wrong? That this one passage does not cover ALL forms of sexual sin?

This is the first sensible and logical response iam getting on this thread. You see the topic of this post is a question, not a statement and it is seeking sound logical bible based answers not preconceived opinions. I quite agree with you debosky that it did not mention sex with prostitues and sexual orgies which are obviously immoral, maybe these were overlooked. But the issue of pre-marital sex which is obviuosly the most common sexual practise could not have been over looked. It was omitted probably because it was not considered as a sexual sin.

I have carefully read through every post on this topic and so far i believe only Debosky has gotten a grasp on what Jagoon is trying to say. If i may add to what Debosky has said, in essence, what Jagoon is asking everybody to do is show him where in the bible it is stated that it is a sin for 2 unmarried people to have sex. And dont use those verses with the word 'fornication' because it wont wash. He has already stated that the word 'fornication' in the bible = sexual immorality ≠ sex between 2 unmarried people according to Leveticus 18. Jagoon, am i right?

My question to Jagoon is this.

What do you think Paul meant by this verse: 1 Cor. 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.?

lafile:

I have carefully read through every post on this topic and so far i believe only Debosky has gotten a grasp on what Jagoon is trying to say. If i may add to what Debosky has said, in essence, what Jagoon is asking everybody to do is show him where in the bible it is stated that it is a sin for 2 unmarried people to have sex. And don't use those verses with the word 'fornication' because it wont wash. He has already stated that the word 'fornication' in the bible = sexual immorality ≠ sex between 2 unmarried people according to Leveticus 18. Jagoon, am i right?

My question to Jagoon is this.

What do you think Paul meant by this verse: 1 Cor. 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.?

Finally i am getting sensible responses , Yes lafile you are right. and to your question even though you quoted from the King's james version whose accuracy of translation is underdebate in this post the same passage in the good news bible is stated as thus "But becuase there is so much immorality, every man should have his own wife and every woman her own husband" and the Amplified version which is the best meaning for meaning translation puts it this way "2But because of the temptation to impurity and to avoid immorality, let each [man] have his own wife and let each [woman] have her own husband.
This statement could be interpreted in various ways, firstly paul was addressing this letter to the people of corinth who at that time engage in all sorts of immoral sexual practises, in 1 corinthians 5: 1 paul even gives an example of the Sexual Immorality he was talking about he said: 1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. this is a very good example of what refered to as immorality. So that passage you quoted could actully mean " instead of sleeping with other people's wives or commiting other sexual immoralities as having multiple sexual partners, go and marry a wife so that all your sexual desires can be met."

Hi Jagoon, was about leaving the office when i saw this.

Finally we are getting somewhere.

The verse i quoted if from chapter 7. the one u quoted if from chapter 5. the significance? read verse 1 of chapter 7. I cor 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. There is every indication here that Paul had finished dealing with the issues raised earlier. Thats why he starts with 'now'. Here we are dealing with immorality/fornication apart from the one in chapter 5 verse 1.

You said So that passage you quoted could actully mean " instead of sleeping with other people's wives or commiting other sexual immoralities as having multiple sexual partners, go and marry a wife so that all your sexual desires can be met." . I disagree. Because verse 8 and 9 says I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn or if i paraphrase "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I( i.e stay without sexual relations). But if they cannot contain(i.e hold body) , let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

In other words, if you cannot hold body (stay without sex), marry. Marriage is the only thing that authorises you to have sex.

Nice one there Lafile. Now let's see how Jagoon can counter this.

@lafile
thanx for the explaination, at least someone is beginning to make sense on this thread now. Unlike others that where just arguuing for the sake of arguing without grasping the issues at stake.
Well lafile your point is noted and it does make a lot of sense but my question is this : why did it have to be "implied" by paul?? why was there no express commandment against it like the commandment against Adultery that was clearly stated? could that not be interpreted to be that paul was just advising them of his opinion on a social issue and not necessarily implying a commandent of God?

Jagoon,

ha, wow ok. i've read through almost the entire thread, i did skip over the comments that as you took notice to did nooot really answer the question thoroughly.
hmm, lets see where do i start, ok here. 1. i have the same question as you. interpretation and translation is a tricky thing. So you using different versions of the Bible i admire. Personally i use a dictionary and look up alternative meanings and such( i have yet to buy other versions of the bible, which iiis helpful but doesn't always solve the problem.

I want to state i understand what you were saying about Leviticus, that passage focused on the immorality of having sexual relations with close relatives, or animals, oooor, the same sex. thats what i got out of it.
I have also read very often about adultery and understand that is in fact a command to not commit it. ( of course the meaning of that word can be debated but that is not the case at hand so i'll avoid that haha)

So there are two examples of when in the Bible some action ( regarding sex ) is clearly said to not be done. The list of sexual immoralites in Leviticus and then the simple commandment ( of The Ten Commandments ) not to commit adultery.

The ENTIRE Bible is filled with , I can confidently say , at LEAST "Good Advice". Even if the Ten Commandments themselves never truely came directly from God and were infact nothing more than the suggestions of a man, it does not change the fact that it is GOOD ADVICE. The reason it IS good advice and the bible states this itself, somethign along the lines of it will be health to your flesh and add years to your life, ?? Is just that, It is GOOD FOR YOU PHYSICALLY first of all. and Secondly it is good for you emotionally. So many things , rules i guess you could call them are given or suggestions , they are all stated in one way or another in the bible and each was created to keep us safe. Example inthe old testiment it mentions eating any bird except those that are scavengers, makes sense right? It doesn't mean you WILL DEFINETLY get sick and die if you eat the wrong type of bird, but you COULD!, So when it comes to rules, suggestions, commandments, they are all written for our own good. To hopefully guide us in a safe direction.
Now you may be thinking, "I understand that." Good i didn't think you wouldn't ,

God speaks to us in many different ways. Sometimes its super natural- for example Moses and the burning bush, or when he went to the top of the mountain and was given the Ten Commandments. Sometimes its very simple and quiet, for example the unshakable peace a person can feel when following through with an act that they feel is acceptable and good in the Lords eyes. If God spoke to Moses and gave him the Ten commandments some basic ideas to follow to keep us in good condition through out our lives, And then spoke to the heart of Paul who wrote 1 Corinthians chap 7, Who are we to pick and choose from the advice given, which we definetly MUST follow and that of which we must not, simply based on whether or not it was given through super natural phenomenon vs wisdom given to a man( who dedicates his life to Christ and therefore Christs purposes. )

i know i rambled alot but my point is this, just because something is not a direct COMMANDMENT given supernaturally to a man from God does not mean that the advice given ( although simply ADVICE, A SUGGESTION, liiiike 1 corinth. 1 AND 6, ) is not FROM GOD,


I believe that all that is in the Bible is equal, just because one is proclaimed a Commandment does not make it anymore important that a piece of advice that is not. And vice versa, Just because something is NOT proclaimed a commandment does not make it any LESS important than the then commandments themselves.
God gave us the ENTIRE bible for a reason, all the bits and pieces add up , and each piece of advice is for our own good ,
i can speak from experience,
I had sex with my boyfriend of almost 4 years, we were in love it all seemed very good.
we were young also
doubts entered his mind,
he wasn't there for me anymore,
we both went through alot of heartache,
i ended up having sex with another person
from that one person i tested positive for an std
and after that, there were many other lessons learned and difficult things to go through. but thatis not as important to the story as the few things i just told you about myself.
Even if you love a person and you think you want to marry them, and maybe even make plans to marry them, and although it will not KILL you to have sex with them before you are married, i believe God has made sure to tell us in many different ways in the past and in the present that it is better for you to wait,
For many reasons, i'm sure you can make a list,

ps in the old testiment God had to do things in a supernatural way, but the new testiment Corinthians for example the Holy Spirit had entered the hearts of men, because of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, thats what God had left behind for us instead of Jesus in his physical body, now we have The Spirit, I believe thats what Paul had, and why he wrote the things he did,

well, i know thats alot, and i hope i made some sense,
these are the things i think about when i begin to question sex before marriage,

its even more confusing for me becuase now i'm no longer a virgin , but i still want to follow Gods laws for me, does it matter, i think so because Jesus says in John 8 :11 Neither do i condemn you ; go and sin no more. pretty simple. and of course that leads me to the same question you had, is sex with the person you love a sin outside of marraige if you love them, and lets say they are your only one,
I think it's safe to assume so,
God created us with amazing minds that can solve puzzles, i belive he expects us to use our minds when reading the bible and not be so concerned with if things are spelled out simply but TRUST, those who have heard from his spirit, LISTEN, for his voice in our own lives and use our logic and common sense to make WISE decisions,
If you understand all this and do all of that ( trusting and listening etc, ) and still think it is wise to have sex with someone you love even though you are not married ( committed for LIIIIFE , haha) , i have nothing else to say,

eh, good luck
- Abby

Reading through this entire thread, only three posts from Debosky, Lafile, and Abbz57 actually understand the issues raised by the poster and were able to answer with any form of coherence.
All other posters were simply babbling without addressing any issued raised by the poster, with attendant 'holier than thou' attitude and 'you asked the question beacause you want to fornicate' attitude.

Non of then were able to controvert the posters assertions that KJV mis-translated some words and phrases before launching into a tirade.

These are the Christians who cannot calmly explain an issue with sound Bible based reasoning. No wonder they simply blab and falter when they have to face the atheists and agnost on this forum when they meet on any thread.

What is sin? We ARE at a higher position of morality than the God of the Bible. If those actions in the old testament are indeed more moral, then we should be fine with racism, genocide, slavery, etc. Oh wait, Jesus (God) said that we should love our neighbor as ourselves and the commandment to not kill is clearly written. The bibleGod is not only immoral, he is a hypocrite.

Reading all this talk about sex and fornication is very very very very funny.
I guess its one of the biggest attributes of God to be cryptic in what ever he says, simply put, though shall not have pre marital sex! How hard can that be? Why all the circles and gibberish and why even tell only one person?
Why the modern day christians cannot even see that these silly commandments do have a place in this world is another baffling and perplexing question.
What was the average age of boys and girls getting married then?
What did it take for one to be married then compared to now?
The average age for a man to be settled down well enough to get married in Nigeria is about 30, for a creature that thinks about sex often it is cruel and lethargic to say he should not have sex until then.
I wonder and marvel at you guys.

@abbz57
Thanx for your detailed response however you have not been able to establish biblically that fornication is a sin or that there was any express commandment against it, how ever i do appreciate the moral angle you gave to it about the dangers and senselessness of having indiscriminate sex. My problem is i am actually sick of people especially pastors forcing their own opinions and biases into the bible and presenting it as the word of God. i discovered that when subjected to scrutinity a lot of things we assume are true and that are in the bible have been wrongly translated / presented to us. Another case in point is the definition of Adultery which you shied away from stating. If you lay your hands on a bible concordance which defines and explains the words used in the bible from the original greek and hebrew words thay were written in, you would discover that the Adultery refered to married women who had extramarital sex. A man could only be deemed to commit adultery if he was involed with a married woman. If a married man had sex with a non married woman, it was not considered as adultery as such married men were free to have extra marital affairs and more than one wife. The definition of adultery which the church adopted today is the english translation which does not precisely express the ancient hebrew/ greek terms used

Yes, fornication is a sin.

Get married at an early age if you really want to have sex.

1 Thess. 4:3. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication.

1 Cor. 6:9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.

1 Corinthians 6:18. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Acts 15:20. But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Galatians 5:19. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Seems cut a dry to me.

after al the same bible that brainwahsed us, said no one will is pure, i dont see any hope in this heaven , sef, na wa oo nai be say no body qualify to enter na, i beg , jare

All I have to say is this

Arguments like this lead us no where.

'Not fornicating' won't take us to heaven.

Everyone, even under God, has a mind that guides him.

If you go against your conscience, you go against your God.

we don't have to try to be clever with GOD, it is futile, there should be no intimate relations / sex, and/or even lusting with the eyes/heart outside of marriage - "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." - Matthew 5:28

“Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.” - Hebrews 13:4

GOD makes it very clear -
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” Galatians 5:19-23

The word of God which now live in me through Christ the salvation of man and the lamb of God, simply clarify that sin is not justifiable but with sincere heart and truthful repentance, it will never be a part of us any more. So if Fornication is the only sin you seem to assume as not a sin, do you know that if you go against one of the commandments, you are guilty of all.

But it is not wise to challenge the word of God or bring human understanding into it, he has allowed us his spirit after his death and ressurrection that we may be enligthen of the truth which he is willing to share with us at all times of our lives. Christ has come not to destroy the laws but to fulfill it all and he also said that not a single word of the Lord will pass by without its fulfillment.

My dearest, it is not you who brings forth argument but the sprit of the world in you. The only way to christianity is a free sprirt and in truth, we are made to know him, in worship we come to appreciate him and in Total sacrifice we come to seat at his table and share of his body and blood as we are meant to as a sign and rememberance of his name forever.

Please to avoid an unfavourable punishment on blasphemy, we should note that the word of God is not a history book anyone can come up with and discuss cause in doing so you are assuming that the Inspirations of the writters are erroneous and that means saying that God can make mistake, which you and i knows that is verey wrong cause if you are made by an erroneous God then you are totally a failure.

Finally i must come to you as i am meant to, Christ has chosen you for a sole purpose and he will never ever give up on you. If he ever gave up on the humans, we should bnot have had a saviour coming down from heaven to die on the Cross for us all. God is the Judge and to clearify the guilt of sin, he sent his son, to come clear us from the guilt of sin. Now he has gone back to be our advocate at all times and he did not sytop there, he insist on allowing the Holy spirit to remain with us.

We all know how hard it was for Christ to be in a sisnful world like ours and you can imagine how much hurt the Holy spirit is going through right now just to try and call you back from your old ways. He takes all the insult and the mess you throw at him and yet he loves us all so much that he insst on staying just for the sake of bringing us away from the painful second death which was never meant for us but the devil who has come simply to kill cheat and destroy.

I know that you are angry at life, and everything is going the other way and you seem to blame God for it. Have you thought about the devil? Have you thought about your part and your role in all these? Have you ever ever felt peace after you think the next deal will allow you more wealth and fame, but have you ever ever found peace?

What i am offering you is no religion. Its no secondary channel or short cut to success. What i am offering you is Christ in his fullness of grace and open advocation for your sins and mine. In that i was yet a sinner, he arose and died for me. So i was the reason for his death, yet i continue to wallow in sin, in doubts and shameful acts.

Your life is worth more that a million bucks; your life is worth more than a certificate; your life is worth more that your business; your life is worth more than some contract; your life is worth more than the political position. Your life is worth more than anything on this earth but worthwhile to the Lord who made you. Offer your life as a living sacrifice to the Lord and see what he does with it, it is certain that your life will never be the same anymore and your world will be transformed from glory to glory.

Dont lack behind because of fear cause the grace and love of the Lord is free for all who wants them, but the result of the sacrifice is life and life everlasting. Take it like this, if you die today, where will you be? Do you believe in hell and heaven? Okay assuming you dont and you die today, what happens to your consciousness? Okay we are in that blind spot if we dont trst the Lord for all things. The devil did not reveal hell and heaven to us, only Christ in his death and resurrection gave us the keys to break all bounds and chains.

Remain in his love and be blessed all the time.
http://www.loveministry/upload/article.php?id=4

After reading through all this thread I feel as though there isn't a way to show that sex between two unmarried individuals who both consent is a sin. The only finding that isn't just people thinking something is implied is Lev 22:29. Even that seems more like a cultural law, like how you're not supposed to have sex with menstruating woman. It makes complete sense at the time, seeing as cleanliness was an issue in the desert (I bet we all use the same pans for cooking both meat and pancakes). And notice how there isn't any precautions to be followed if the man didn't pay the shekkels.

So anyway, i think this thread is pretty much divided into parties that say that sex outside of wedlock is implied to be sinful, those that think since it might "prick" your conscience its a sin, and those like myself that believe you shouldn't call it a sin unless it can really be found to be condemned in the bible.

I dont think those differences can be resolved.

Also, for all those people who keep referring to Paul's words as God's in the new testament, you also better call forth to kick all females out of teaching and government jobs. To much of the talk about sexuality comes back to this dude who didn't even meet Jesus. In my opinion, all his works should be seen as the word of an early christian leader rather than God's own words. Nowhere else has God said that women cant wear pearls or that they are saved through childbearing. Take Paul's works with a grain of salt.

It is very wrong to fornicate. Sleeping with the person you are not married to is a sin. Please do not be deceived. People fornicate because of sexual desires. And sex is meant for the married and not the unmarried. Even Paul in the bible said that he was umarried and he said it was good to stay unmarried, but he said that if we cannot RESIST the DESIRES of the flesh, then it would be better if we stayed married. Please sex is a marriage thing. No marriage, no sex. When you marry then you can have sex, but for now stay off fornication.

If sex is meant for the married, why do the unmarried have sexual urges? Would you recommend masturbatoon till marriage?

@Kxy

You may think that its wrong, but for it to be constructive here, I would ask where in the Bible is it expressed that sex between unmarried people is wrong.

^Is the bible preventing you from fornicating as you like?

If the answer is no then what is your problem.

Not sure why non-christians are always fixating over the bible.

.

The problem here is whether or not premarital sex is a sin according to the bible. That's the subject of the thread to my understanding anyway.

^If you dont believe in the bible  then why is what it says, an issue for you?

Is the bible preventing you personally from fornicating?

Then what's the problem?

I guess the problem now is not having replies from people who care about figuring out if there is a biblical basis for thinking premarital sex is sin.

^^you're not a christian so it doesnt concern you.

doesnt matter if you warm the church benches plz. Spare me any long story.