candylips:

@Beaf

Most of the innovation in Java actually comes from the Open source Community. Sun hasn't done a good job in improving Java in recent years i was actually one of those people happy that about the recent takeover

Whether Sun's Java lisences are actually open source is another debate. As far as I know, the OSS community only creates libraries, they really have no say over the direction of java as a language.

Beaf:

Whether Sun's Java lisences are actually open source is another debate. As far as I know, the OSS community only creates libraries, they really have no say over the direction of java as a language.

Correct. but it is the third party libraries or frameworks that drive successful languages .

The language itself should not include too many libraries else it becomes bloated and very difficult to learn or use.

I think Java was beginning to fall into this category with the kind of features added in 1.6 and 1.7 am  hoping the knuckleheads in Sun will just leave the language features the way it is and instead focus more on making the JVM and probably make it more accessible to more languages ( which they actually started with the scripting package in Java 1.6)

let me ask ya, how long will it take a team of 5 java developers to deliver a the simplest shopping cart website in terms of hours?
compare that to what it will take 1 php developer to do same

in terms of productivity, php wins, python rules

webdezzi:

let me ask ya, how long will it take a team of 5 java developers to deliver a the simplest shopping cart website in terms of hours?
compare that to what it will take 1 php developer to do same

in terms of productivity, php wins, python rules

We're talking about compiled languages and you bring in scripted languages?
How can you compare a lion and a mouse? A PC and an abacus?
What about javascript, vbscript and classic ASP? Those are the languages you can compare PHP with.

any novice reading ur posts must be feeling like 'oh that geek can compile'
as if to compile isn't just a single line of same pattern code run everyday by millions around d world.
u sound as is if u actually type in bytecodes and not in the same ascii used by scripters

whether compiled, compiled on the fly, scripted, the only reason I use any language is solve a task at hand.

nothings gladens me than seeing my codes do what I want them to do, to me, easier is better.
read my post all over before jumping to a conclusion.

I was not arguing in favour of any language in the first place, my point is, you can achieve the same task with another language, that's why I mentioned flash against applets even when the argument was php java related.

I was trying to put java down cos someone claimed it has no match and others seem to admit.

Point of info: I have been watching few threads of which this is one, I am not some kiddie who google up to fill threads like (well, u know how u do your thing). if I don't know i'll ask.
I don't take buses round lagos cos I wanna know lagos, when I get a biz call in a new area, i'll  sure get my way around knowing d place, all that counts to me is that I know the basics.
let that sink.

webdezzi:

any novice reading your posts must be feeling like 'oh that geek can compile'
as if to compile isn't just a single line of same pattern code run everyday by millions around d world.
u sound as is if u actually type in bytecodes and not in the same ascii used by scripters

whether compiled, compiled on the fly, scripted, the only reason I use any language is solve a task at hand.

nothings gladens me than seeing my codes do what I want them to do, to me, easier is better.
read my post all over before jumping to a conclusion.

I was not arguing in favour of any language in the first place, my point is, you can achieve the same task with another language, that's why I mentioned flash against applets even when the argument was php java related.

I was trying to put java down cos someone claimed it has no match and others seem to admit.

Point of info: I have been watching few threads of which this is one, I am not some kiddie who google up to fill threads like (well, u know how u do your thing). if I don't know i'll ask.
I don't take buses round lagos cos I wanna know lagos, when I get a biz call in a new area, i'll  sure get my way around knowing d place, all that counts to me is that I know the basics.
let that sink.

All that for 3 lines I wrote? Bros chill now.
Even though I'm among those hitting Java here, I will never do it with PHP, Ruby, Python or the likes. It just doesn't make sense.

I was shocked to see your outburst and took the pains to go back over the thread. All you needed do was emphasise the angle you are coming from (which would likely have been killed off anyway, with arguments like twitters scalability issues etc).

Haba! Don't take anything personally, don't think I am insulting you.

Beaf:

Even though I'm among those hitting Java here, I will never do it with PHP, Ruby, Python or the likes. It just doesn't make sense.

Correct and just to add all projects are not web based which these scripting languages were designed for

Beaf:

All that for 3 lines I wrote? Bros chill now.
Even though I'm among those hitting Java here, I will never do it with PHP, Ruby, Python or the likes. It just doesn't make sense.

I was shocked to see your outburst and took the pains to go back over the thread. All you needed do was emphasise the angle you are coming from (which would likely have been killed off anyway, with arguments like twitters scalability issues etc).

Haba! Don't take anything personally, don't think I am insulting you.

i am not taking anything personal, but alway read b4 u leap.

candylips:

Correct and just to add all projects are not web based which these scripting languages were designed for

if u can still recollect someone saying java's strength lies on the web,
that's why we are talking web.

moreover, python being called scripting language is only cos of it's ease of use, python is high level programming as java just that it automates some low level tasks than java.
note also that php also has a toolkit binded to it that allows for desktop development.
yea, initially, they were design for the web, now u can even do more.

webdezzi:

I am not some kiddie who google up to fill threads like (well, u know how u do your thing). if I don't know i'll ask.

While I don't think you are worth arguing with, I'll side-step your rants and ask; who do you think is smarter? The kid that uses Google to find answers, or you that ask questions that you can find more accurate answers on Google but choose to get answers that may not be accurate (by asking here on Nairaland)?

if i dont know, i'll ask. this includes asking google.

webdezzi:

if i dont  know, i'll ask. this includes asking google.

. . . then why the condescending reference to Google?

lol

maybe you google for the full meaning of ask

webdezzi:

let me ask ya, how long will it take a team of 5 java developers to deliver a the simplest shopping cart website in terms of hours?
compare that to what it will take 1 php developer to do same

in terms of productivity, php wins, python rules

Exactly.

I can build a complete shopping cart system with product inventory and order management system in hours because I trust PHP to deliver. Over 70% of web applications out there in the world run on PHP and that is neither a coincidence nor a joke.

LOL!

Shopping cart? Who still codes those these days? That's so '97. How many Java-based free open-source frameworks with shopping cart functionality are out there? Literally hundreds, but I'll mention 1 - OfBiz.

logica:

LOL!

Shopping cart? Who still codes those these days? That's so '97. How many Java-based free open-source frameworks with shopping cart functionality are out there? Literally hundreds, but I'll mention 1 - OfBiz.

men don't make me remember that framework.

webdezzi:

i am not taking anything personal, but alway read b4 u leap.
if u can still recollect someone saying java's strength lies on the web,
that's why we are talking web.

moreover, python being called scripting language is only cos of it's ease of use, python is high level programming as java just that it automates some low level tasks than java.
note also that php also has a toolkit binded to it that allows for desktop development.
yea, initially, they were design for the web, now u can even do more.

I very obviously read before I leapt, I was only commenting on your reaction, but let's not go there.

I mentioned twitter earlier; the lessons of twitter (built with RoR) throw the limitations of half compiled, half scripting languages into spectacular light. Use them only for the smaller website where performance is of little consequence. If you have to deal with real time transactions (stock, commerce etc), you will serve your customers better by using the right tool (not PHP, Ruby, Python or the likes).

logica:

LOL!

Shopping cart? Who still codes those these days? That's so '97. How many Java-based free open-source frameworks with shopping cart functionality are out there? Literally hundreds, but I'll mention 1 - OfBiz.

camry aka tiny light, who still drive those these days, that's so '99
we thank God for u.

look even newbies know there are many carts out there they can customise.
some how,i have figured out that u just wanna sound tech savvy, well, u sure know why a barell will sound very loud.

my last post was on productivity, same with afam's, u talking about ppl no longer using shopping cart which is complete off topic, well it may be the drive to talk about ofBiz. go ahead.

Beaf:

Use them only for the smaller website where performance is of little consequence. If you have to deal with real time transactions (stock, commerce etc), you will serve your customers better by using the right tool (not PHP, Ruby, Python or the likes).

That is why I have a problem with bank websites built using such technologies as PHP and the likes.

You don't need a fast language for ecommerce websites. The database does most of the work.

webdezzi:

some how,i have figured out that u just wanna sound tech savvy, well, u sure know why a barell will sound very loud.

my last post was on productivity, same with afam's, u talking about ppl no longer using shopping cart which is complete off topic, well it may be the drive to talk about ofBiz. go ahead.

You ARE a slowpoke, you copy? You are also probably suffering from dyslexia or one of it's variants judging from the part of your quote I put in bold. Even an idiot knows I didn't say that, so where does that leave you?

Without even trying to sound techie, as in even in my sleep, you couldn't comprehend things I play with. Run along boy.

Seun:

You don't need a fast language for ecommerce websites. The database does most of the work.

Well, the example of Twitter mentioned though not an eCommerce website revealed quite a bit. At first glance it's not more than storage and retrieval of messages. Now they are talking about asynchronous messaging (queuing) et cetera due to the high volume. These are things developers of highly scalable applications put in mind from the ground up.

Afam:

Exactly.

I can build a complete shopping cart system with product inventory and order management system in hours because I trust PHP to deliver. Over 70% of web applications out there in the world run on PHP and that is neither a coincidence nor a joke.

I think customizing an existing free ecommerce software in any languague is just fine.

E-commerce is very generic there is no point developing from scatch . . . a waste of brain resources imho

My main problem with dynamic langugues like PHP or Javascript is the loose typing. You find yourself sometimes fixing bugs and writing test cases around issues that should have been caught by the compiler.

They have their advantages though but i don't see them very useful in very complex enviroments.

I think in future we will be having more of hybrid languages coming up.

Candylips:

Yeah. Most developers I know only use scripted/translated languages for prototyping and not for high-performance stuff. But some, out of laziness after the prototyping phase rather than move to compiled leave the code in the scripted form. And yes, I was pulling out my hair when I used QBasic back in the day for a prototype of a game I developed, where having the same variable misspelled in a reference (e.g 'someVariable' misspelled as 'someVar' will result in another variable called 'someVar' being created).

Oh yeah OfBiz can be very off-putting because of its complexity (tries to answer all questions). But APIs/frameworks handling something as generic as a shopping cart can be easily found in almost any language. No need to reinvent the wheel.

candylips:


I think customizing an existing free ecommerce software in any languague is just fine.

E-commerce is very generic there is no point developing from scatch . . . a waste of brain resources imho

One of the major limitations I have found with technology adoption is the statement - there is no point re-inventing the wheel.

By all means if you can re-invent the wheel go ahead because it is in doing so you get to understand how things work. If e-commerce is very generic then how come it is very difficult for payment gateways in Nigeria to implement simple e-commerce solutions? I have been dealing with IT managers of banks who in my opinion know very little about e-commerce let alone having them implement them to our own unique environment.

Customizing an existing free e-commerce software may cost more and take more time considering the fact that you must understand the design principles, logic and assumptions made by the original developer before you can correctly change anything that may affect the working of the software.

I started using open source solutions like joomla when it was still mambo and after about 2 years I realized they had unnecessary limitations and were not flexible enough to accomplish tasks that clients would want on their websites.

About scalability of PHP my simple question is this - Why do we have over 70% of dynamic applications out there running on PHP?

This forum runs on PHP and it is the most popular Nigerian website and the script is open source.

Afam:

About scalability of PHP my simple question is this - Why do we have over 70% of dynamic applications out there running on PHP?

. . .because those 70% don't do not need the kind of high performance required of most business and high-volume applications. They are trivial. Duh!

It's like arguing that the best way to code any web application is to use static HTML, since static HTML pages were predominant in the early years of the WWW.

logica:

. . .because those 70% don't do not need the kind of high performance required of most business and high-volume applications. They are trivial. Duh!

It's like arguing that the best way to code any web application is to use static HTML, since static HTML pages were predominant in the early years of the WWW.

Is static HTML now a programming language?

Help the poster solve his problem that is the essence of understanding a programming language. It is not about bragging to know the language it is about using the language to solve problems and we have one on our hands right now.

Solve the problem for the guy and leave the bragging rights for now.

Need I say that the "ML" in HTML stands for "Mark-up Language"? Or what does all the PHP code eventually translate into by the time it arrives in the user's browser? Bragging to know what language? How many problems have you solved other than reinventing the wheel, till the wheel literally falls off, and repeating the mantra of 70% adoption? Please -> -> -> . . .

If you want to demonstrate the power of PHP and your skills, go here and solve the problems:

http://www.blackplanet.com/developers/programming_puzzles/

logica:

Need I say that the "ML" in HTML stands for "Mark-up Language"? Or what does all the PHP code eventually translate into by the time it arrives in the user's browser? Bragging to know what language? How many problems have you solved other than reinventing the wheel, till the wheel literally falls off, and repeating the mantra of 70% adoption? Please -> -> -> . . .

If you want to demonstrate the power of PHP and your skills, go here and solve the problems:

http://www.blackplanet.com/developers/programming_puzzles/

Excellent response by someone that cannot even solve a problem for someone and yet will spend the whole day bragging about a language he cannot even use himself.

It is not about acquisition of knowledge, it is about putting that knowledge to use. All the noise you have been making have come to naught because you cannot even help someone solve a basic problem in a language you brag about.

All these paper tigers sef.

If you are still referring to the talk about shopping cart and all those other concepts that have long since become standard since the turn of the century, you must be some sort of dinosaur, and you must find it hard reading like your comrade webddezzi. I will not waste my time creating a shopping cart when there are thousands of free code I can use for that. We Java developers treasure the concept of reuse - APIs and frameworks.

I have given you a link to show-case what you can do, knowing that the problems are not the usual form-post-to-database that people like you are used to. Funny enough, most undergraduate programs in real software development would have delved into such problems but I doubt you know the first thing about path-finding problems/algorithms and such. If you do, feel free to solve the problems and post your solutions.

logica:

If you are still referring to the talk about shopping cart and all those other concepts that have long since become standard since the turn of the century, you must be some sort of dinosaur, and you must find it hard reading like your comrade webddezzi. I will not waste my time creating a shopping cart when there are thousands of free code I can use for that. We Java developers treasure the concept of reuse - APIs and frameworks.

I have given you a link to show-case what you can do, knowing that the problems are not the usual form-post-to-database that people like you are used to. Funny enough, most undergraduate programs in real software development would have delved into such problems but I doubt you know the first thing about path-finding problems/algorithms and such. If you do, feel free to solve the problems and post your solutions.

One thing that is common with the average educated Nigerian is that he/she finds it supremely difficult to process information or comprehend issues due to intellectual stubbornness and will never admit that.

You have jumped from shopping cart to posting a link on PHP puzzles just to hide your inability to help someone fix a program on a language you so brag about but obviously know nothing about as regards actual usage.

Seems you are enjoying the diversion from the real issues. I will have to put an end to that enjoyment because I will only respond to your post when you address the issues on ground. Any irrelevant post will be ignored based on merit.

Oya, let's have your next post so we can see how it will fare.

Afam:

One of the major limitations I have found with technology adoption is the statement - there is no point re-inventing the wheel.

By all means if you can re-invent the wheel go ahead because it is in doing so you get to understand how things work. If e-commerce is very generic then how come it is very difficult for payment gateways in Nigeria to implement simple e-commerce solutions? I have been dealing with IT managers of banks who in my opinion know very little about e-commerce let alone having them implement them to our own unique environment.

Yes it is true that sometimes you can't aviod re-inventing the wheel but i think some of the better generic open source tools out there these days are flexible enough for you be able to customize to a specific requirement if required

You are right about the learning curve required in learning how to extend some of these tools but once you pass the initial curve i think you will be fine.

The good thing about these tools is that it is developed by a community of developers so it would probably have been thoroughly tested (at least the very good ones with an active community) and if you get stuck with a problem you have people who will be willing to help you out

Downsides to doing your own thing is that you have to go through many cycles of testing to ensure that the software is doing what it is supposed to do. Fix little niggly bugs and all