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Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? - Politics - Nairaland

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Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by Nobody: 9:02pm On Oct 28, 2013
Sincere 9gerian:

The purchase of 2 BMW armoured vehicles by NCAA and the aviation ministry still dominates national discourse. Various online and on-ground emergency anti-corruption activists have since emerged, all calling for the sack of the minister of aviation, Stella Oduah, for "corruption", "misappropriation", "stealing",etc. One word that features prominently among those baying for the blood of Oduah is "corruption". Even those who are either neutral or opposed to attempts to lynch Oduah have been accused of condoning corruption or doing so out of ethnic sentiments.

But sentiments apart, lets dissect the issues and remove facts from wishful thinking. What is corruption? What is your definition of corruption? Atleast if we can agree on the definition of corruption, then we can OBJECTIVELY decide if Oduah is guilty of corruption.

I got two elaborate definition/description of corruption from two different sources.

Transparency International describes corruption generally as “the abuse of entrusted power for private gain”. "Corruption can be classified as grand, petty and political, depending on the amounts of money lost and the sector where it occurs.
Grand corruption consists of acts committed at a high level of government that distort policies or the central functioning of the state, enabling leaders to benefit at the expense of the public good....Political corruption is a manipulation of policies, institutions and rules of procedure in the allocation of resources and financing by political decision makers, who abuse their position to sustain their power, status and wealth"
http://www.transparency.org/whoweare/organisation/faqs_on_corruption

Investopedia describes corruption as "Dishonest behavior by those in positions of power, such as managers or government officials. Corruption can include giving or accepting bribes or inappropriate gifts, double dealing, under-the-table transactions, manipulating elections, diverting funds, laundering money and defrauding investors"
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/corruption.asp

From the above descriptions of corruption, can the purchase of 2 BMW armoured cars by NCAA with the approval of the minister be described as corruption?

Lets relate the purchase of the cars with the definition above. Were the vehicles bought for "private gain"? The FACTS already in the open is that the vehicles were bought in the name of NCAA. Is the minister of aviation synonymous with NCAA? If the minister is sacked today, will she go with NCAA vehicles?

Did the NCAA or minister of aviation "distort policies or the central functioning of the state" to enable the minister or any public office holder "benefit at the expense of the public good" through the purchase of the 2 vehicles? I dont think so. In fact, from what we can see, this minister is enhancing "public good" in her sector through the ongoing transformation in aviation, including Airport remodelling, building of new terminals, cargo terminals, aerotropolis, procurement of safety equipments,etc.

Can we describe the procurement of the 2 vehicles to as "manipulation of policies, institutions and rules of procedure in the allocation of resources and financing by political decision makers" or "abuse" of position to sustain "power, status and wealth"? I dont think so.

Can we relate procurement of the 2 vehicles to "giving or accepting bribes or inappropriate gifts, double dealing, under-the-table transactions, manipulating elections, diverting funds, laundering money and defrauding investors"? Not at all. From the information in the open, the armoured cars were financed by First Bank and all the documents have been presented. In fact, the NASS also admitted that NCAA officially requested to buy 2 armoured vehicles during the budget defence. Whether or not the request was approved is still a subject of debate- the NASS said it didnt approve the request but NCAA said the request was approved. If the NCAA had intended to do an "under-the-table transaction", it wouldn't have sought legislative approval in the first place.

Another controversy is the cost of the vehicles. Some have argued that at N255 million, the 2 armoured vehicles are over-priced. But till date, NO ONE has proven that those cars can be gotten at a cheaper price. Even the EXPERTS interviewed on ChannelsTV with regards to cost said armoured vehicles can be gotten for prices ranging from N40 million to over a N100 million each.

2 Likes

Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by Nobody: 9:06pm On Oct 28, 2013
Sincere 9gerian:

Another issue is whether the vehicles were budgeted for or the procurement followed due process. Assuming for the sake of argument, that the vehicles were not budgeted for or that certain due process was not followed, does that now amount to corruption? In my opinion, it simply means rules or the law was not followed,ie illegality. Illegality is not the same as corruption. It is illegal to drive against traffic on one-way but that does not mean corruption. Moreover, laws are meant for man and not man for the law.

Atleast as far I know, the purchase of those vehicles passed through the same procedure as the contracts for the remodelling of 22 Airports. I have checked the records and there was never a time it was reported that the Federal Executive Council (FEC) awarded contracts for remodelling of 22 Airports.

And we MUST place whatever alleged sins or misgivings we have against Oduah side-by-side with her generally acknowledged good works. As far as we can SEE, in just under two years, Oduah changed the face of many airports in the country. She is rebuilding and expanding 22 Airports with N17 billion (at the average cost of N800 million per Airport). She completed what remained of the Total Radar Coverage of Nigeria, provided the most sophisticated weather reading equipment for the Nigeria Meteorological Agency, and acquired low level wind shear equipment, the weather Doppler radar and low level wind shear alert system which have been installed in all the airports. These equipment ensure that accurate weather data are given to the pilots. Recently the Minister acquired modern equipment for the Accident Investigation Bureau that in less than one week after the Associated flight crash the preliminary report of the accident was out.

Oduah is building brand new international Airport terminals in Enugu, Lagos, Kano, Abuja and Portharcourt. She is building new perishable cargo terminals at Airports across the federation to boost local economy through agriculture.

And that is not all, the bulk of the funds used in executing most of these projects, including the purchase of the controversial armoured vehicles, come from INTERNALLY GENERATED REVENUE from the agencies under the watch of the minister.

So the question every patriotic and sensible Nigerian would ask is where was all these funds going into in the last 2 or 3 decades that there was no activity in aviation sector?

As far as I am concerned, if the purchase of 2 or more armoured vehicles will encourage the minister to continue blocking the leakages in the aviation sector, sustain the tempo of good works that I can SEE and FEEL and meet the target of a self-reliant aviation sector (an aviation sector that does not depend on oil revenue or federation account) by 2016, then Oduah will continue to enjoy hundred percent of my support and the support of millions of patriotic Nigerians nationwide.

Lastly, there is need to urgently review the system that we run in this country. Assuming Oduah came in as minister and simply maintained status quo in the sector, we wouldn't have seen all these attacks on her. What is the REWARD for hardwork in my country? What is the reward for daring to do things differently in my country? In a country where everyone is mostly after how much extra share of petro-dollars they can get from the sale of crude oil, what is the reward for a minister who dares to look inwards and raises the internally generated revenue of her sector for the overall good of the sector and nation? What is the reward for good works in my country?

Take the case of our various governors for example. All they do is come to Abuja every month with their plates to collect their share of oil money. The governor of Borno state collected about N84.2 billion from oil revenue shared in Abuja in 2012. In 2013, he expects his share of the bounty to rise to N108.7 billion. Lagos expects to rake in about N117.250 billion from Abuja oil-money sharing bazzar. The same applies to other state governors from the north, east and west. But the question we should ask these governors is what do they bring to the Abuja sharing-table as leaders of their respective states? Where is creativity, hardwork and progressive-competitiveness in coming to Abuja every month to share oil money? Do these governors ever hope to wean their states off the sharing of free oil money just like Oduah plans to do with the aviation sector?

In conclusion, the cries of corruption are misplaced. All I see are attempts by LOSERS to give Oduah a bad name and hang her.

7 Likes

Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by gbanikiti(m): 9:10pm On Oct 28, 2013
With all the definitions of corruption and your explanations, what's the main purpose of this thread,to tell us that she isn't corrupt eh,Ifeanyi?

1 Like

Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by biafranqueen: 9:25pm On Oct 28, 2013
Great write up, I have zero tolerance for corruption and your definition shows clearly that maybe protocol was not followed in all directions but did she buy those cars for her personal usage, clearly that is not the case. The way the media started bombarding us with stories even to a point of saying no cars were delivered I started to feel like she was a disappointment, we do see clearly the transformation, and I have yet to trust any Politician in not just Nigeria but in America where the lobbyist and special interest groups use back doors to bribe American leaders. The point being if she made a mistake she should admit it correct it and continue to with doing a good job. People calling for her to be sacked are enemies of Nigeria's progress or they don't use the airports,so they don't know that Change is really happening. Thank you for your time to write this up!

4 Likes

Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by Nobody: 9:34pm On Oct 28, 2013
Corruption is Purchasing Cars at Prices far over and above the Market Price...in Nigeria here,that usually means the Supplier and the Government Official involved have a "Kickback" Agreement.

Corruption is Purchasing Obscene Luxuries at a Time when the Government(which she is part of) is claiming to be strapped for cash;so much so,that its left the Nation's "future Leaders" high and dry on the Streets..if that's not Dishonesty,then I don't know what is.

Corruption is purchasing Vehicles whose categorical physical whereabouts cannot be ascertained,Vehicles that have never been presented for registration,which means they have never been driven on Nigeria's Roads,so to what Purpose were they Purchased? Tell me please.

4 Likes

Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by atlwireles: 9:38pm On Oct 28, 2013
koonbey: Corruption is Purchasing Cars at Prices far over and above the Market Price...in Nigeria here,that usually means the Supplier and the Government Official involved have a "Kickback" Agreement.

Corruption is Purchasing Obscene Luxuries at a Time when the Government(which she is part of) is claiming to be strapped for cash;so much so,that its left the Nation's "future Leaders" high and dry on the Streets..if that's not Dishonesty,then I don't know what is.

Corruption is purchasing Vehicles whose categorical physical whereabouts cannot be ascertained,Vehicles that have never been presented for registration,which means they have never been driven on Nigeria's Roads,so to what Purpose were they Purchased? Tell me please.

IN WHAT PLANET ARE THE ABOVE CORRUPTION

3 Likes

Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by Nobody: 9:39pm On Oct 28, 2013
Assuming for the sake of argument, that the vehicles were not budgeted for or that certain due process was not followed, does that now amount to corruption? In my opinion, it simply means rules or the law was not followed,ie illegality. Illegality is not the same as corruption. It is illegal to drive against traffic on one-way but that does not mean corruption. Moreover, laws are meant for man and not man for the law.

This guy is a huge joke. So your employer is running government of illegalities? When you break a law, you shouldn't be punished? Of course because laws are made for man and should be broken at will!

2 Likes

Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by superstar1(m): 9:42pm On Oct 28, 2013
atlwireles:

IN WHAT PLANET ARE THE ABOVE CORRUPTION

In planet Biafra, it is not corruption, it is called "doing a good work".


Bunch of jokers.

9 Likes

Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by Nobody: 9:44pm On Oct 28, 2013
biafranqueen: Great write up, I have zero tolerance for corruption and your definition shows clearly that maybe protocol was not followed in all directions but did she buy those cars for her personal usage, clearly that is not the case. The way the media started bombarding us with stories even to a point of saying no cars were delivered I started to feel like she was a disappointment, we do see clearly the transformation, and I have yet to trust any Politician in not just Nigeria but in America where the lobbyist and special interest groups use back doors to bribe American leaders. The point being if she made a mistake she should admit it correct it and continue to with doing a good job. People calling for her to be sacked are enemies of Nigeria's progress or they don't use the airports,so they don't know that Chang is really happening. Thank you for your time to write this up!
What is happening is a massive propaganda and ALUU-4 mentality. It is operation tag the minister of aviation with "corruption" and lynch her

From that definition, it is very clear that even electoral manipulation is corruption. Only last week, it was alleged that Oshiomole shamelessly rigged the local council by-election but the media and all the emergency and brown-envelop anti-corruption activists turned deaf ears. Are these elements trying lynch Oduah not aware that electoral manipulation is the very worst form of corruption?

3 Likes

Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by Nobody: 9:46pm On Oct 28, 2013
atlwireles:

IN WHAT PLANET ARE THE ABOVE CORRUPTION
Ode. Read,I know its daunting..just try.mtcheew.

1 Like

Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by Wallie(m): 9:46pm On Oct 28, 2013
What is corruption and/or misappropriation? Textbook definitions only set the boundaries and do not purport to define every instance of corruption and/or misappropriation.
Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by Bliss4Lyfe(f): 9:49pm On Oct 28, 2013
OP has writen a masterpiece. Absolutely correct and reflects my take on the media frenzy.

I find each time that i ask the question of wat exactly Stella has done to be corrupt, is met with either silence or name calling.

It is a know fact that the vechiles where purchased by the Aviation Ministry for their aviation operation.

Is it necessary, well only the aviation minister can answer. Let us not forget that attempts where made on the life of Dora Akunyili the former minister.

Let us not forget that Boko Haram is a serious security threat. With all the insecurity, Stella is right to take wateva precaution she deem appropriate to safe guard her life.

Particularly with the level of reforms that are currently being carried out in the aviation sector that the cabals are not too happy about. Just about every operation in the aviation sector is privately owned by associates of past regimes.

6 Likes

Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by superstar1(m): 9:51pm On Oct 28, 2013
Sincere 9gerian:
What is happening is a massive propaganda and ALUU-4 mentality. It is operation tag the minister of aviation with "corruption" and lynch them.

From that definition, it is very clear that even electoral manipulation is corruption. Only last week, it was alleged that Oshiomole shamelessly rigged the local council by-election but the media and all the emergency and brown-envelop anti-corruption activists turned deaf ears. Are these elements trying lynch Oduah not aware that electoral manipulation is the very worst form of corruption?

You are very funny.
If indeed she is being witch hunted by her seen and unseen enemies. She also robbed petrol on her body, thereby aiding the known and unknown enemies. Honour is taking responsibility for your action. She should take responsibility for her irresponsibility.
Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by Nobody: 9:56pm On Oct 28, 2013
koonbey: Corruption is Purchasing Cars at Prices far over and above the Market Price...in Nigeria here,that usually means the Supplier and the Government Official involved have a "Kickback" Agreement.

Corruption is Purchasing Obscene Luxuries at a Time when the Government(which she is part of) is claiming to be strapped for cash;so much so,that its left the Nation's "future Leaders" high and dry on the Streets..if that's not Dishonesty,then I don't know what is.

Corruption is purchasing Vehicles whose categorical physical whereabouts cannot be ascertained,Vehicles that have never been presented for registration,which means they have never been driven on Nigeria's Roads,so to what Purpose were they Purchased? Tell me please.
All that you wrote are mere wishful thinking and baseless. Till date, no one has shown that those vehicles can be purchased at a cheaper price.

The kick-back allegation is baseless because all the vehicles were bought under a lease arrangement with First Bank and payment will be spread over 36 months.

Who told you the whereabout of the vehicle is unknown? It seems you've been reading too much poo from Tinubu's newspapers. The NCAA has stated categorically that the armoured cars are in their pool of vehicles.

Losers are just struggling to label the minister of aviation as corrupt and lynch her. She is not a saint either but whatever administrative lapses she may be guilty of does not warrant these magnitude of attacks and onslaught.

4 Likes

Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by superstar1(m): 10:08pm On Oct 28, 2013
Bliss4Lyfe: OP has writen a masterpiece. Absolutely correct and reflects my take on the media frenzy.

I find each time that i ask the question of wat exactly Stella has done to be corrupt, is met with either silence or name calling.

It is a know fact that the vechiles where purchased by the Aviation Ministry for their aviation operation.

Is it necessary, well only the aviation minister can answer. Let us not forget that attempts where made on the life of Dora Akunyili the former minister.

Let us not forget that Boko Haram is a serious security threat. With all the insecurity, Stella is right to take wateva precaution she deem appropriate to safe guard her life.

Particularly with the level of reforms that are currently being carried out in the aviation sector that the cabals are not too happy about. Just about every operation in the aviation sector is privately owned by associates of past regime.




If buying 2cars for 255m is not offensive to the sense of alaigbo people, then it clearly shows something is wrong with the psyche of people from that land.

Is she Chief of Army Staff, or Chief of General Staff or DG of NAFDAC or NSA that she is under threat. Was any report made to police or DSS.

Where is the threat coming from. Is it from.her family members or the husbands she dumped or her aristos.

We knew Dora's threat was coming from fake drug sellers from ndigbo. Where is her coming from. Phantom security threat to steal money
How many armoured car did Dora had to buy or is her work more hazardous than Dora's work.

Abeg let us hear world. If alaigbo refuse to see corruption. The whole world is not blind the way they are.
Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by Nobody: 10:16pm On Oct 28, 2013
Sincere 9gerian:
All that you wrote are mere wishful thinking and baseless. Till date, no one has shown that tose vehicles can be purchased at a cheaper price.

The kick-back allegation is baseless because all the vehicles were bought under a lease arrangement with First Bank and payment will be spread over 36 months.

Who told you the whereabout of the vehicle is unknown? It seems you've been reading too much poo from Tinubu's newspapers. The NCAA has stated categorically that the armoured cars are in their pool of vehicles.

Losers are just struggling to label the minister of aviation as corrupt and lynch her. She is not a saint either but whatever administrative lapses she may be guilty of does not warrant these magnitude of attacks and onslaught.
You really believe because the Payments are Spread,financed by a Bank,and whatnot...they can't take Kickbacks?... I don't think so wink

Nobody has been able to prove those Cars could have been gotten for less than 250+ million Dollars?Enter Google.

I stand by my Statement that said Vehicles have no known whereabouts,and I will do so until I see Evidence to the contrary.

I get my Information from SaharaReporters,if you consider their Journalism Ish,kindly recommend a better news Channel.

BTW Sir,you skipped my middle Point,I'm sure it was an Oversight tho.
Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by Femolacaster(m): 10:21pm On Oct 28, 2013
superstar1:

If buying 2cars for 255m is not offensive to the sense of alaigbo people, then it clearly shows something is wrong with the psyche of people from that land.

Is she Chief of Army Staff, or Chief of General Staff or DG of NAFDAC or NSA that she is under threat. Was any report made to police or DSS.

Where is the threat coming from. Is it from.her family members or the husbands she dumped or her aristos.

We knew Dora's threat was coming from fake drug sellers from ndigbo. Where is her coming from. Phantom security threat to steal money
How many armoured car did Dora had to buy or is her work more hazardous than Dora's work.

Abeg let us hear world. If alaigbo refuse to see corruption. The whole world is not blind the way they are.
1000000 likes
Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by Nobody: 10:31pm On Oct 28, 2013
superstar1:

If buying 2cars for 255m is not offensive to the sense of alaigbo people, then it clearly shows something is wrong with the psyche of people from that land.

Is she Chief of Army Staff, or Chief of General Staff or DG of NAFDAC or NSA that she is under threat. Was any report made to police or DSS.

Where is the threat coming from. Is it from.her family members or the husbands she dumped or her aristos.

We knew Dora's threat was coming from fake drug sellers from ndigbo. Where is her coming from. Phantom security threat to steal money
How many armoured car did Dora had to buy or is her work more hazardous than Dora's work.

Abeg let us hear world. If alaigbo refuse to see corruption. The whole world is not blind the way they are.
I will be suprised if the current DG of NAFDAC does not have an armoured car. You and I heard about that of NCAA and ministry of aviation because certain documents were leaked. Even your governor, BRF, was alleged to have bought 3 armoured cars at N600 million. So why are you not bothered about that? How many threads have you created to ask questions about the alleged armoured cars bought by BRF? What about state governors that bought private jets from their state's share of Abuja monthly oil revenue bazzar?

If the argument was that buying 2 vehicles at that amount was insensitive, then I can relate to that. But the attempt to lynch Oduah and tag her with corruption by the same EVIL elements and haters of the president is DEAD ON ARRIVAL

3 Likes

Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by JMOI: 10:40pm On Oct 28, 2013
The stories about Oduah in the media are part of a propaganda by enemies of the GEJ administration and those who are envious and jealous of Igbos; you know who I'm talking about.

2 Likes

Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by Nobody: 10:42pm On Oct 28, 2013
koonbey:
You really believe because the Payments are Spread,financed by a Bank,and whatnot...they can't take Kickbacks?... I don't think so wink

Nobody has been able to prove those Cars could have been gotten for less than 250+ million Dollars?Enter Google.

I stand by my Statement that said Vehicles have no known whereabouts,and I will do so until I see Evidence to the contrary.

I get my Information from SaharaReporters,if you consider their Journalism Ish,kindly recommend a better news Channel.

BTW Sir,you skipped my middle Point,I'm sure it was an Oversight tho.
The price of the vehicles cannot be gotten directly from google. That is what the experts say. ChannelsTV interview with an expert in security vehicles revealed that the prices of armoured vehicles ranges from N40 million to over a N100 million each, depending on the fittings.

You stand by your statement? Are you NCAA that owns the vehicles? That is the problem. You can stand by it because it suits your sentimental and jaundiced thoughts. Anyway, that is your business.

2 Likes

Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by takedat(m): 10:47pm On Oct 28, 2013
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Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by Nobody: 10:51pm On Oct 28, 2013
JMOI: The stories about Oduah in the media are part of a propaganda by enemies of the GEJ administration and those who are envious and jealous of Igbos; you know who I'm talking about.
oh puhleeease,not again...Politicians from all Tribes keep "chopping our Money" ,now we've caught this one and Sir,we're not letting go...as it was for Etteh,as it was for Tafa,as it was for Farouk...so shall it be for Oduah. Even if she doesnt resign or is sacked,it will caution the others...for a while at least... As for being Haters,I dont know about others,but Corruption has the same bitter Taste in my Mouth,irrespective of Tribe.
Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by superstar1(m): 10:54pm On Oct 28, 2013
Sincere 9gerian:
I will be suprised if the current DG of NAFDAC does not have an armoured car. You and I heard about that of NCAA and ministry of aviation because certain documents were leaked. Even your governor, BRF, was alleged to have bought 3 armoured cars at N600 million. So why are you not bothered about that? How many threads have you created to ask questions about the alleged armoured cars bought by BRF? What about state governors that bought private jets from their state's share of Abuja monthly oil revenue bazzar?

If the argument was that buying 2 vehicles at that amount was insensitive, then I can relate to that. But the attempt to lynch Oduah and tag her with corruption by the same EVIL elements and haters of the president is DEAD ON ARRIVAL

Oga, you used the world alleged and you want me to be wasting my time on allegation. The onus lies on the source of the allegation to prove it. Once is proven with clear facts and figures as seen in the case of Stella "steal" oduagate, Fashola will be a goner. Tell your propaganda machine - the sun newspaper- to do their investigative journalism on it and stop being a massob megaphone.

Your ethnic card can never work. Stella is. A shame to motherhood and a disgrace to alaigbo . Cest fini.
Re: Armoured Car Controversy: What Is Your Definition Of Corruption? by Nobody: 11:04pm On Oct 28, 2013
Sincere 9gerian:
The price of the vehicles cannot be gotten directly from google. That is what the experts say. ChannelsTV interview with an expert in security vehicles revealed that the prices of armored vehicles ranges from N40 million to over a N100 million each, depending on the fittings.

You stand by your statement? Are you NCAA that owns the vehicles? That is the problem. You can stand by it because it suits your sentimental and jaundiced thoughts. Anyway, that is your business.
no Sir,I stand by it because,i got the Information from a Source I consider Reliable,they have been consistently accurate on other Aspects of the Saga,so its not much of a Leap of Faith to believe that Aspect.

As for the Price of the Vehicles,between 40-over 100 Million Dollars abi,and she just had to go and buy the highest priced Range...what on earth does a Minister need such Vehicles for? I'm sure that would not make her reduce the Number of auxiliary Vehicles in her Convoy,likewise the heavy Police Escort I'm sure she uses...

Also,dont forget that there were Reports that she also bought some SUVs and stretch LIMOs

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