KidStranglehold:

lol...PAGAN9 clearly has a agenda. Its funny how he ignored this which debunks all his claims.

RandomAfricanAm:


Ahhh, umm ......Mmmm (something smells fishy here)

sniff sniff....
Hmm, I smell politics at play **and still do**
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I'll sit back and watch **thanks for the good show guys**

KidStranglehold:

lol...PAGAN9 clearly has a agenda. Its funny how he ignored this which debunks all his claims.


He barely even knows the argument at hand and IGNORES all PEER REVIWED sources posted, yet claims they are just random. Yet he has not posted any backing up his claims.

PAGAN 9JA:


practical is always better than theory.

btw you are a black supermacist or something of that sort. im sure.

i dont understand why you are trying to bring your AA racism into Africa?

PAGAN 9JA:


Wtf? That doesnt make any sense.

The Tuareg took the slaves they captured wherever they went. Or sold them on different points of their trade routes.

PAGAN 9JA:


You are talking nonsense. Tuaregs CANNOT have mixed with Arabs. you are not understanding the custom of the tribes. You are just going by theory. I jus explained why it is impossible for Arabs to mix with the Tuareg.

No other non-African was absorbed into Tuareg. You are just making that up without any proof inorder to promote your black-centrism and to disregard the Pure light-skinned Tuareg as mere mixed-bred.

You are just trying to promote the half-bred Bella as Tuareg ,because of their skin colour.

PAGAN 9JA:

You told me WRONG.

This is what PURE Tuareg look like:










None of the Above are Middle-Eastern OK?

PAGAN 9JA:

Stop spreading lies to further your black-centrism.

PAGAN 9JA:

I DARE YOU. I DOUBLE DARE YOU to show me proof that hose Tuareg are mixed with:

1)Europeans
2)Middle-Easterners


I DARE YOU.

PAGAN 9JA:

I have provided you with enough proof to show that the black Tuaregs are mixed. especially the ones in Niger and Mali and Azawad.

PAGAN 9JA:

DUDE stop trying to dodge my point!

I told you that slaves, like commodities are transported across trade routes, wherever the Tuareg went..!

cant you use this simple common sense.

Libya has light-brown skinned Tuareg as well.

Im talking about Tuareg not any other Berbers. and stop bringing Egyptians into it.





Dude stop posting these dumbarse Egyptian cave paintings. COme to the point.

We are discussing Tuareg here. Todays Touareg.

and what evidence? Go research yourself. I have already provided.

What are the Bella?

What are the Iklan?

Arent these Tuareg caste of slaves?


Dont the Tuaregs stilll hold slaves?



You have all the resource to research all these pre-historic stuff, yet you can research about Bouzou and Tuareg social structure. how biased are you?

PAGAN 9JA:

bullsh!t. you just made that up.

stop lieing.


Btw This Garamaente thing is not there in Tuareg oral traditions.


please dont use such methods on me. be straight with me.

PAGAN 9JA:

I dont believe it. ANyways this is my theory.

I already explained my opinion on the Greeks.

It is physical reality that matters. not some vague words becing projected around by afro-centrists.

PAGAN 9JA:

Cmon dont try to scare me with that. What historians? THey just said it is a belief.

Which other classical writer said so?

Cmon tell me.


My proof is todays Tuareg.

PAGAN 9JA:

yes I am brown skinned.

"dark brown".



Lmfao. Niger has high rate of slavery. anyways it was more 30 years back. go google/research it. They released many slaves.

PAGAN 9JA:

Why don't YOU give me sources. Also like I said Snnghays and Bella's are not even native to Libya, where there is a high percentage of darker skinned Tuaregs. But here is when it gets worse from you.



WHy do you doubt the enslavement of Songhay by the Tuareg?

What is there to doubt in that?

because they are dark skinned? so what?

PAGAN 9JA:

This shows you are clearly BIASED .

And btw stop dividing all Tuareg by country. Tuareg dont recognize any borders.

Research material depends on the TUareg clan and band on whom it was conducted.


You are doing some really foolish things by posting 1 pic and claiming all Mali Tuareg look like that.

Most of the militia in Ansar Dine and MNLA and the top brass, are all light-brown sand-skinned.

Im talking about the region of Azawad.

It depends on the group of Tuareg.

PAGAN 9JA:

My Gods! There is clearly so much bias in your posts!

Was the research carried out on this specific woman you posted?

CMON stop lieing.


this is also a Niger Tuareg:

[img]http://64.78.29.176/images/uploads/ifam_davidmoore46.jpg[/img]





Where does it go down the drain?

I just showed you the proof above. I also showed proof of how biased you are .

Wheres the proof of your last claim?








No its not. admit it. you are being biased.

whats your ultimate goal?

I know you are a black-centrist.





so my source does not agree with your views. therefore it is outdated and trash.

whereas you quote some random comment made 2000 years ago by a traveller and that is gospel truth.

YOU ARE BIASED.

PAGAN 9JA:

Ive noticed that you dont use logic. you just keep posting links about anything that agrees with your views.

How can you accept the words written by a newspaper editor as proof worthy of research material?

i mean wth? His article is obiviously derived from Herodotus reference of Ethiopians.

The newspaper editor is not some authority on anthropology or history.

PAGAN 9JA:

Dude seriously stop posting some random links.

Trepanation was practiced all over the world, including Europe, Greece, India, South America, etc.

Does that mean they are relaed to the Garamentes.

They all ate food as well. DOes that mean they are related?

PAGAN 9JA:


Sorry I do not believe Nubia started the pastoral tradition for the entire Africa. The Bantus and Zulus and other SOuthern groups were already into pastorialism and hae nothing to do with the Nubians.

Anyways you are diverting. We were talking about the pastoral tradition after the fall of the Egyptian civilization. not during its rise.

PAGAN 9JA:

That link shows portrays the Garamantes as a settled and highly civilize people. so why are you contradicting yourself. are you trying to prove how unreliable these first person Roman accounts are

PAGAN 9JA:

Whats wrong with you? I said i had 2 lines of views. and I specified I was more inclined towards one.







but you are clearly trying to pose the black race as the purer and more likely race in the Tuareg case.

It seems you are biased.

PAGAN 9JA:

EXACTLY!

THis was what I have been telling for ages.

Indians range from light brown to dark brown, depending on their caste/tribe or within caste diversity.

So this shows how unreliable these Greek Accounts are since they label any hue as Ethiopian without differentiation.

And you were claiming that Ethiopian meant specifically BLACK .

Stop contradicting yourself!

PAGAN 9JA:

which entailed a life of nomadism.

Nomadism does not mean cattle herding. To be a nomad is to display mobility.




Im not in denial. Many of your sources were not proper research material!

Sources for what? Whatever ive claimed is available online. you can find hem easily.

PAGAN 9JA:

True . the slave-descent Tuareg are not even proper Tuareg.





I have already told you before that Tuareg are not restrained by national boundaries. This research is a very futile effort. The Tuareg keep migrating. it depends on the group on which the research is conducted.

Why are you shooting yourself in the foot.

just a while ago you were claiming Libyan Tuareg are the purest in terms of being BErber and now you show that they have 50% Sub Saharan dna which proves their slave descent.

PAGAN 9JA:

Great so now Kabyles are also Blacks. What a load of bs.

This is why i posted about the Kabyles on purpose. to see whether you would claim them as blacks as well. (which you inevitably did)

dont show me these colonial drawings. show me real pictures.


These are todays Kabyles:

[img]http://b.imdoc.fr/1/divers/tenues-kabyles-traditionnelles/photo/9158525915/20317113ed7/tenues-kabyles-traditionnelles-kabyle-fille-hameaux-img.jpg[/img]





[img]http://lestizis.free.fr/Kabylie-1900/Villages-Kabyles-1900/slides/Village-Kabyle-17.jpg[/img]


Now you will also inevitably say that these are mixed with Europeans. *smh

PAGAN 9JA:

however if europeans mixed with "black" Kabyles, wont the dominant black alele prevail. these people dont have a trace of brown in them, forget black.

Or else you will give me some conspiracy theory that europeans came in, extermnated all the BErbers ad are now staying in their place and wearing their clothes.

Im waiting. .

PAGAN 9JA:

You dont need to be sorry. They still have the same culture and are ethnically similar. The origin myths probably refer to the origin of the different clans withing them.

(except the Bella and other mixed groups)
This further proves that Tuareg as an ethnic group existed way before.

Dibiachukwu: Food for thought. If I conquered you and killed your fathers, do you really believe I will tell you the truth? How come afro-centrists love quoting white people. This is a stinking dilemma that would put every well weaned man off

Fulaman198:

I don't understand why myself

KidStranglehold:

lol...He so desperately for some reason wants to make ALL the darker skinned Tuaregs the result of slavery(yet Tuaregs actually had more European slaves). He has not even posted any sources+links backing up his claims, while ignoring the sources+links I posted and saying their 'random'.

He thinks his opinions are above historians and peer reviewed sources. Yet calls me a blackcentric, while he is the one with the agenda.

He's a funny character.

Fulaman198:

Yeah, please read all the comments I made as well.

Fulaman198: It still happens today, white women seem to like black men. They like Fulani, Songhai(Zarma), Toubou, etc. They seem to come to Africa to learn more about the culture I guess it fascinates them. There are even some white women who have children from African fathers on this forum today.

Correct that there is no such thing as a pure Touareg. The Berber groups in Morocco are ever less Berber. I don't even think they speak their language. They only speak Arabic mainly. A lot of Amaizghen have mixed with Romans and Greeks in Morocco.

KidStranglehold:

I did. Like I said his goal is to make all black looking Tuaregs descendant of slaves.

Fulaman198:

Which would be very wrong and euro-centric. Tuaregs never defeated the Songhai in battle. Therefore, they never enslaved them. If anything, it is probably vice versa in Mali. A lot of Songhai are actually probably Tuareg, because once defeated they were integrated into Songhai culture

KidStranglehold:

Actually both you and him are right. Tuaregs like many Berbers were under the THUMB of Western Sudanic empires like the Ghana, Mali and Songhai. And the Tuaregs always worked under the Songhai Empire always doing their bitting and always working trade/being soldiers.

But he is right that recently that Tuaregs do have Songhai slaves, but it is small scale that it is not even noticeable and the slavery is not even not even the type of slavery say those of the USA. And I heard their slaves can even buy their freedom. What PAGAN9 forgets to mention that Tuaregs(along with almost everyone during the medieval era) had European slaves specifically those from Europe.

Also read my recent post above...

Fulaman198:

Don't you think you are being very hypocritical?

KidStranglehold: @Fulaman

Yes Fulaman African slavery was completely different and less harsh. And thanks.

Oh and there is one more thing I forgot to mention. Like I said the majority of the slaves taken during medieval times(and up to the 18th century) were Europeans, BUT Eastern European slavs. Remember slave comes from the word slav. Coincidence? But let me go on more....What PAGAN9 keeps forgetting is that a lot of Eastern European Slavs ended up in North Africa and I mean a lot. They even ended up in the hands of Tuaregs, empires like Mali and even all the way down to Cameroon. Its true...Eastern European slaves especially women were in HIGH demand.

Also can clearly see the Eastern European/Balkan slavic influence on these Kabylia girls clothing.


People from Balkans.


Its so OBVIOUS!

Its all because p*mp daddy E-M81...These people.


Had a thing for mtDNA H which are these people.
[img]http://abagond.files./2011/03/petra.jpg[/img]

Which resulted to this!




Yep...Mister E-M81 had to many white wimminz for his own good.

That explains the whole story of modern day North Africans in a nutshell.

Radoillo: I've actually been wondering all along if it's accurate to say that there were no 'white-looking' people in North Africa before the Spanish Reconquista in the 15th century.

It seems we are forgetting one earlier period in history when the area was overrun by German tribesmen (the Vandals) soon after the fall of Rome in the 5th century. I really doubt that those Nordic Germans didn't leave any phenotypic mark.

It also seems to me rather odd that blond hair and blue eyes occur in the Berber population more frequently among the Kabyles and the Riffians who occupy mountainous and not easily accessible terrains. Now the relative inaccessibility of those areas suggest to me that we are probably dealing with very ancient communities here. I don't think the Christian Spaniards kicked the Moors so hard that they not only fled back to Africa, but went up difficult mountain passes even after they've reached the safety of Morocco. I think the expelled Moors remained in lowlying cities like Marrakesh, etc and continued the civilized lives they knew in Spain. Highland-dwelling Berbers like the Kabyle and the Rif Berbers IMO represent an older subset of Berber culture among whom blond hair and non-black, non-brown eyes weren't entirely unknown.

I have encountered references from classical (Greek and Roman) writers who remarked on blond hair and green eyes among certain Libyan (ie, Berber) tribesmen in antiquity.This would mean that those physical traits were present in North Africa even before the Vandal conquest. Ancient Egyptians, as well, depicted Libyans as light-skinned. Much lighter skinned than themselves.

I'm far from suggesting that North Africa was another Scandinavia. But my theory is that North Africa was peopled by the same wave of migrations that peopled Southern Europe, especially the Iberian Peninsula. And the presence (indeed the predominance) of a basically Eurasian stock in North Africa goes farther back than the 15th or the 5th century. Immigration of Afro-Asiatic East Africans brought the proto-Berber language. And of course interbreeding with 'subsaharan' peoples (they probably weren't all that 'sub-saharan' back then) has been an age old phenomenon.

Rif Region
The beautiful Rif is a mountain range that extends from Tangier in the west to the Moulouya River in the east and the Mediterranean sea in the north to the river of Ouargha in the south. The mountain region derives its name from the Berber word, arif. They belong to the Alboran Sea region but are not a part of the Atlas Mountains. The region is well known for its geographic diversity, as it is home to mountains, the sea, rivers, and hills. Major cities in the region are Nador, Al Hoceima, Ajdir and Taza, among others.

The Rif was initially inhabited by the Berbers and was later invaded by the Phoenicians in the 3rd century BC, followed by the Romans and the Byzantines. The high plateau of Eastern Morocco: In the rain shadow region of the Atlas chain lies the broad valley of Moulouya. It stretches for about 530 kms rights from the Middle Atlas and goes right up to the Mediterranean Sea. Set to the southeast of the Atlas Mountains, this is a plateau formation at an altitude of 1300m (3900 feet). It stretches in the eastern direction to the Moroccan-Algerian border. It abruptly drops to the southwest and make a smoother transition toward the coastline. There are different small towns like Asni, Tin Mal that you can check out. The artificial lake Lalla Takerkoust created due the hydroelectric dam serves as a good source for the villages around it.

macof: And this thread started wit Ijebu

Radoillo:

And Jebusites/Canaanites

ladionline:

And the pics of all the races of the world descended and feast on it

Radoillo:

Hey, u gotta admit it was kinda fun.

Radoillo:

And Jebusites/Canaanites