^^


Pastor ( ),

Can you show us one scripture that creates even the slightest perception that we have to believe that Jesus is GOD in order to be saved.

Lol, Yours,

Frossy.

OLAADEGBU:

Those who deny the deity of Christ and those who put Peter in the place of Christ are on their own. If the foundation be destroyed what can the righteous do?

Why are you the one to decide who's in or out? Are you infallible?

Christ is the foundation of the Church. If you miss this foundational truth then you are side tracked.

Christ made his apostles the foundation of the Church, especially building his Church on Peter.

Also, are you incapable of answering my questions honestly? Why do you keep pretending not to see them?

Do you mind telling if Christ told us that some of God's doctrines are essential while the rest are non essential?

Also can you list these "essential doctrines" so that Children of God will not ignore them at their own peril?

frosbel: ^^


Pastor ( ),

Can you show us one scripture that creates even the slightest perception that we have to believe that Jesus is GOD in order to be saved.

Lol, Yours,

Frossy.

Aha! Luther!

italo:

Christ made his apostles the foundation of the Church, especially building his Church on Peter

Question:

so, has Christ stopped being the Church's foundation? Yes or No.

In other words:
Is Christ the foundation of the Church? Yes or no.

adsonstone:

Question:

so, has Christ stopped being the Church's foundation? Yes or No.

In other words:
Is Christ the foundation of the Church? Yes or no.

Christ still is.

Have the apostles stopped being the foundation of the Church? Yes or no.

Is the Church no more built on the rock - Peter? Yes or no.

Has Peter stopped feeding Jesus sheep? Yes or no.

Does Peter still have the keys to the kingdom? Yes or no.

Does Peter still confirm his brethren in the faith? Yes or no.

italo:

Christ still is.

Awesome!

You have said the absolute truth.
Then Christ is the Rock on which the Church is built.

italo:
Have the apostles stopped being the foundation of the Church? Yes or no.

Is the Church no more built on the rock - Peter? Yes or no.

No, Peter himself is built on Christ-the Rock.

The Apostles and all christians (the Church in general) are rocks/foundation which upholds the truth.

If you are familiar with the Pauline epistles (esp Ephesians), you will know this.

italo:
Has Peter stopped feeding Jesus sheep? Yes or no.

Does Peter still have the keys to the kingdom? Yes or no.

Does Peter still confirm his brethren in the faith? Yes or no.

Yes, just as my 'Daddy' does all these.

....and worthy of note, all christians have the authority to 'bind' on earth and it will be bound in heaven.

Simple!

adsonstone:

Awesome!

You have said the absolute truth.
Then Christ is the Rock on which the Church is built.



No, Peter himself is built on Christ-the Rock.

The Apostles and all christians (the Church in general) are rocks/foundation which upholds the truth.

If you are familiar with the Pauline epistles (esp Ephesians), you will know this.

Okay. So Jesus, 11 Apostles and all other Christians are the rocks one which the Church is built. Only Peter is not the rock on which the Church is built. I hear you but I no gree!

"You are Peter and uoon this rock I will build my Church."--Jesus Christ.

adsonstone: Yes, just as my 'Daddy' does all these.

....and worthy of note, all christians have the authority to 'bind' on earth and it will be bound in heaven.

Simple!

Well, Jesus didn't say these to you and your daddy. He said them to Peter.

italo:
Okay. So Jesus, 11 Apostles and all other Christians are the rocks one which the Church is built. Only Peter is not the rock on which the Church is built. I hear you but I no gree!

"You are Peter and uoon this rock I will build my Church."--Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ, the Conerstone on which the church is built-
Jesus is the Head of the Church (not Peter)

You have affirmed that.

italo:
Well, Jesus didn't say these to you and your daddy. He said them to Peter.

neither did He say that to papa 'pope' Francis

....and is my 'daddy' not Peter

Per Eusebius of Caesarea

"... as Scripture says: ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it’; and elsewhere: ‘The rock, moreover, was Christ.’ For, as the Apostle indicates with these words: ‘No other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.’ Then, too, after the Savior himself, you may rightly judge the foundations of the Church to be the words of the prophets and apostles, in accordance with the statement of the Apostle: ‘Built upon the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.’"

adsonstone:

Jesus Christ, the Conerstone on which the church is built-
Jesus is the Head of the Church (not Peter)

You have affirmed that.

Peter is the rock on which Christ built the Church. Jesus affirmed that.

adsonstone:


neither did He say that to papa 'pope' Francis

....and is my 'daddy' not Peter

If we can first agree that Jesus said those to Peter, then we can talk about the rest. Pope Francis is Peter's successor. Jesus still has sheep on earth and Peter is no more on earth. It would be foolish to think Jesus only wanted to feed the sheep of Peter's generation. Peter has been succeeded by men to whom he has passed on that commission.

As for your 'daddy.' I never heard Pope Francis had a son.

I hope you know you are derailing this thread..

Jerome

"The one foundation which the apostolic architect laid is our Lord Jesus Christ. Upon this stable and firm foundation, which has itself been laid on solid ground, the Church of Christ is built...For the Church was founded upon a rock...upon this rock the Lord established his Church; and the apostle Peter received his name from this rock. "

italo:

Peter is the rock on which Christ built the Church. Jesus affirmed that.

Christ is the cornerstone on which the Church is built....and He is the head of the church (if you disagree, it doesnt change the fact).

The Holy Spirit affirmed it, Church Fathers eg Jerome knew this.

italo:
If we can first agree that Jesus said those to Peter, then we can talk about the rest. Pope Francis is Peter's successor. Jesus still has sheep on earth and Peter is no more on earth. It would be foolish to think Jesus only wanted to feed the sheep of Peter's generation. Peter has been succeeded by men to whom he has passed on that commission.

As for your 'daddy.' I never heard Pope Francis had a son.

I hope you know you are derailing this thread..

the thread is not being derailed....its part of the topic.

My 'daddy' is Peter not Francis' son.
....and He feeds me.

adsonstone:

Christ is the cornerstone on which the Church is built....and He is the head of the church (if you disagree, it doesnt change the fact).

The Holy Spirit affirmed it, Church Fathers eg Jerome knew this.

Amen. I believe the Holy Spirit. I also believe Jesus and Holy Spirit when they say the Church is built on Peter. Sadly, you seemingly disagree with them there. You pick and choose where to believe the Holy Spirit.

adsonstone:

the thread is not being derailed....its part of the topic.

My 'daddy' is Peter not Francis' son.
....and He feeds me.

Ehn no wahala. Provide evidence.

italo:

Amen. I believe the Holy Spirit. I also believe Jesus and Holy Spirit when they say the Church is built on Peter. Sadly, you seemingly disagree with them there. You pick and choose where to believe the Holy Spirit.

I also believe Jesus and Holy Spirit when they say the Church is built on Peter not Francis.

I do not disagree with them on that.

....and Jesus also said our God is God of the living....and you affirmed that 'Saints never die'....

If this is true as you implied, Apostle Peter is not dead and still 'oversees' the Church just as Christ does....then the pope Francis is of no use.
(I'm dancing to your beat)

italo:

Christ made his apostles the foundation of the Church, especially building his Church on Peter.

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:11).

There you go, Christ is the foundation of the Christian faith. Just as the doctrine of creation is the foundation of the life of the universe, our Lord Jesus Christ was the Creator before He became the Redeemer. The record of His creation in the book of Genesis is the foundation of all revelation. Jesus Christ, first as Creator, then as Redeemer, is the foundation of any true and lasting Christian life. How then is Peter the foundation?

italo:

Also, are you incapable of answering my questions honestly? Why do you keep pretending not to see them?

Like I said before, the doctrines respecting the Person, offices and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ are the only foundation of the gospel. If anyone has to build they have to build on this foundation, not on Peter. What are these doctrines?

Doctrines of His proper deity; of His divine and eternal Sonship; of His Incarnation; of His Messiahship; of His Obedience; of His Suffering and death and bodily resurrection; Justification by His righteousness; Pardon by His blood; atonement by His sacrifice, etc.

If the Church was built on Peter there would have been nothing called Christianity today.

adsonstone:

I also believe Jesus and Holy Spirit when they say the Church is built on Peter not Francis.

I do not disagree with them on that.

....and Jesus also said our God is God of the living....and you affirmed that 'Saints never die'....

If this is true as you implied, Apostle Peter is not dead and still 'oversees' the Church just as Christ does....then the pope Francis is of no use.
(I'm dancing to your beat)

Oh! I see your theology is not reasonable enough to explain anything. You just want to disagree with the Catholics without having any sensible reason.

OLAADEGBU:

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:11).

There you go, Christ is the foundation of the Christian faith. Just as the doctrine of creation is the foundation of the life of the universe, our Lord Jesus Christ was the Creator before He became the Redeemer. The record of His creation in the book of Genesis is the foundation of all revelation. Jesus Christ, first as Creator, then as Redeemer, is the foundation of any true and lasting Christian life. How then is Peter the foundation?

"You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church. "--Jesus Christ.

OLAADEGBU: Like I said before, the doctrines respecting the Person, offices and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ are the only foundation of the gospel. If anyone has to build they have to build on this foundation, not on Peter. What are these doctrines?

Doctrines of His proper deity; of His divine and eternal Sonship; of His Incarnation; of His Messiahship; of His Obedience; of His Suffering and death and bodily resurrection; Justification by His righteousness; Pardon by His blood; atonement by His sacrifice, etc.

If the Church was built on Peter there would have been nothing called Christianity today.

The questions were:

Do you mind telling if Christ told us that some of God's doctrines are essential while the rest are non essential?

Also can you list these "essential doctrines" so that Children of God will not ignore them at their own peril?

You surely didnt answer the first question. Then is what you have up there the list of all the essential doctrines? Anything not there is non-essential?

italo:

"You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church. "--Jesus Christ.

Jesus said it and I quote:

"And I say also to you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18 ).

If you start reading from verse 14 you'll realise that our Lord Jesus Christ wasn't saying that Peter is the "rock" upon which He will build His Church. If you insist that He was saying that Peter is that rock upon which He will build His Church then you are contradicting the Scriptures.

1 Corinthians 3:11 that I quoted earlier makes it clear that Jesus is the only foundation, and the "rock" there is referring to the revelation that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

italo:

The questions were:

Do you mind telling if Christ told us that some of God's doctrines are essential while the rest are non essential?

Also can you list these "essential doctrines" so that Children of God will not ignore them at their own peril?

You surely didnt answer the first question. Then is what you have up there the list of all the essential doctrines? Anything not there is non-essential?

If you don't get the gospel truth revealed to Peter that Christ is the "rock" on which He will build His Church then it would be fruitless listing other biblical doctrines hinging on Christ.

OLAADEGBU:

Jesus said it and I quote:

"And I say also to you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18 ).

If you start reading from verse 14 you'll realise that our Lord Jesus Christ wasn't saying that Peter is the "rock" upon which He will build His Church. If you insist that He was saying that Peter is that rock upon which He will build His Church then you are contradicting the Scriptures.

1 Corinthians 3:11 that I quoted earlier makes it clear that Jesus is the only foundation, and the "rock" there is referring to the revelation that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Jesus the rock named Simon "Rock" and built his Church on him.

Jesus the holder of the keys to the kingdom makes Peter the holder of the keys to the kingdom.

Jesus the shepherd makes Peter the shepherd.

There's no lying around that. Sorry.

OLAADEGBU: If you don't get the gospel truth revealed to Peter that Christ is the "rock" on which He will build His Church then it would be fruitless listing other biblical doctrines hinging on Christ.

After dodging the question about four times, you finally summoned the courage to refuse to answer it.

Bravo, "christian" teacher.

italo:

Jesus the rock named Simon "Rock" and built his Church on him.

Jesus the holder of the keys to the kingdom makes Peter the holder of the keys to the kingdom.

Jesus the shepherd makes Peter the shepherd.

There's no lying around that. Sorry.


After dodging the question about four times, you finally summoned the courage to refuse to answer it.

Bravo, "christian" teacher.

"As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believes on Him shall not be ashamed" (Romans 9:33).

OLAADEGBU:

"As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believes on Him shall not be ashamed" (Romans 9:33).

Rev 21:14 - And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them, the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Eph 2:20 - Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

Sadly some Protestants refuse to see the Apostles as foundation of the Church...because they want to oppose the Catholics...and the Bible.

italo:

Rev 21:14 - And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them, the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Eph 2:20 - Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

Sadly some Protestants refuse to see the Apostles as foundation of the Church...because they want to oppose the Catholics...and the Bible.

Let's see what reputable bible scholars say about those verse, shall we?

"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone" (Ephesians 2:20).

Ephesians 2:20

2:20 foundation of the apostles. The "foundation of the apostles and prophets," upon which the great house must be built, clearly refers to the Scriptures which they wrote under divine inspiration. Note Ephesians 3:3-5. The New Testament was given "by revelation" (Ephesians 3:3), "revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" (Ephesians 3:5). This revelation was first preached verbally to the early churches, but then amplified, expounded and codified in writing—writings which soon came to be recognized as the "canon"—that is the measuring rule—of New Testament Scripture. Once this "foundation" was laid, when the Scriptures were finally completed through the last living apostle and prophet, then the superstructure of this "holy temple in the Lord" (Ephesians 2:21) could be erected, stone by stone, as we all are being "builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:22). It is especially important to remember that the foundation is already complete. Nothing further can be added to the inspired Scriptures. The last apostle, John, strongly emphasized this in his final words (Revelation 22:18,19). Thus any later "prophet," professing to have some new revelation from God, is thereby branded a "false prophet" (note Matthew 24:24).

Ephesians 2:20

2:20 chief corner stone. The Lord Jesus Christ is the chief corner stone around and upon which the foundation itself has been built. He as Son of God is also the "Rock" upon which the church is built (Matthew 16:18 ). Furthermore, "other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:11); He must be the foundation of each redeemed life. Note also such related Scriptures as Psalm 118:22; Isaiah 28:16; Matthew 7:24-25; I Peter 2:3-8; and finally Revelation 21:14-21.

So you're still in this game of twisting scripture to suit whatever trash you concoct in your head.

So long!

Just note that Jesus never said there were essential and non-essential doctrines. Man must live "by every word that comes out of the mouth of God."

All God's doctrines are 'essential.'

What you teach is heresy, not God's doctrine.

Concerning Jesus and the Apostles.

"You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church...and i will give you the keys to the kingdom of God"--Jesus Christ.

Rev 21:14 - And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them, the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Eph 2:20 - Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

Keep twisting!

italo:

Oh! I see your theology is not reasonable enough to explain anything. You just want to disagree with the Catholics without having any sensible reason.

but you said all those things I wrote.....or did you not say them?

Of what use is Francis when Peter is alive?

adsonstone:

but you said all those things I wrote.....or did you not say them?

Of what use is Francis when Peter is alive?

The same use that Peter was when Jesus had left this earth, yet was alive.

"Feed my sheep," "I will give you the keys to the kingdom," yet Jesus was alive.

Clearly, Jesus wanted a visible head for his Church...and even the Early Church Fathers knew this.


You have a habit of arguing against Catholic positions without having any firm and reasonable position of your own.

It seems like you just tell yourself: "the Catholics say this so I must disagree."

italo:

The same use that Peter was when Jesus had left this earth, yet was alive.

"Feed my sheep," "I will give you the keys to the kingdom," yet Jesus was alive.

Clearly, Jesus wanted a visible head for his Church...and even the Early Church Fathers knew this.


You have a habit of arguing against Catholic positions without having any firm and reasonable position of your own.

It seems like you just tell yourself: "the Catholics say this so I must disagree."

regarding the bold:
....and who told you that my 'Daddy' is not the visible Head?

adsonstone:

regarding the bold:
....and who told you that my 'Daddy' is not the visible Head?

Only if your 'Daddy' is Pope Francis. He's the visible head.

Here is a 'whole' Roman Catholic "Cardinal"; not only a "cardinal" but a person who himself nearly became "pope".

Per "Cardinal" Baronius

"The chief lesson of these times is that the Church can get along very well without popes. What is vital to the Church's survival is not the pope but Jesus Christ. He is the head of the Church, not the pope."

italo:

So you're still in this game of twisting scripture to suit whatever trash you concoct in your head.

So long!

Just note that Jesus never said there were essential and non-essential doctrines. Man must live "by every word that comes out of the mouth of God."

All God's doctrines are 'essential.'

What you teach is heresy, not God's doctrine.

Concerning Jesus and the Apostles.

"You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church...and i will give you the keys to the kingdom of God"--Jesus Christ.

Rev 21:14 - And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them, the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Eph 2:20 - Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

Keep twisting!

Hand waving right? What you should have done was to show us how I twisted the Scriptures instead of hand waving as you have just done.

Anyways. Can you tell us how these doctrines were built on Peter since you insist that Peter is your "rock"

Tell me whether this is the Church of Christ or not?

Here are just a few examples of the continual evolution of pagan practices brought into the Roman Catholic Church, starting in 310 A.D.:

Prayers for the dead were introduced in 310
The lighting of candles in 320
The worship of saints about 375
The mass was adopted in 394
The worship of Mary began to develop about 432
Priests began to assume distinctive robes in 500
The doctrine of purgatory was introduced in 593
Worship in Latin (since repealed) was mandated in 600
Claims to Papal Supremacy took firm foot in 606
Feasts in honor of the Virgin Mary began in 650
The custom of kissing the Pope's foot was introduced in 709
The worship of images and relics was authorized in 788
The invention of holy water was about 850
The canonization of saints was formalized in 993
Feasts for the dead were introduced in 1003
The celibacy of the priesthood was declared in 1074
The dogma of Papal infallibility was announced in 1076
Prayer beads were introduced in 1090
The doctrine that there are seven sacraments was introduced in 1140
The sale of indulgences began in 1190
The wafer was substituted for the loaf in 1200
The dogma of transubstantiation was adopted in 1215
Confession was instituted in 1215
The adoration of the Wafer began in 1220
The Ave Maria was introduced in 1316
The cup was taken from the laity in 1415
Purgatory was officially decreed in 1439
Roman tradition was placed on the same level as Scripture in 1546
The Apocrypha was received into the Canon in 1546
The immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary was announced in 1854
The doctrine of the papal infallibility was proclaimed in 1864
The personal corporeal presence of the Virgin in heaven in 1950

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n2042.cfm

Why claim you follow Peter as your "Rock" yet ignore his teachings?  Did Peter teach or practice any of the the above traditions?

^^^

Aha! You are so deceitful that you'd rather talk about anything else than your own OP.

Where and when did Jesus tell you there are "essential" and non-essential doctrines?

And where is the list of "essential" doctrines?

You cannot answer honestly that Jesus never told you so.

italo:

^^^

Aha! You are so deceitful that you'd rather talk about anything else than your own OP.

Where and when did Jesus tell you there are "essential" and non-essential doctrines?

And where is the list of "essential" doctrines?

You cannot answer honestly that Jesus never told you so.

I listed a few up earlier none that you have acknowledged. Tell me how any of the dogmas I posted above qualifies as a teaching that Peter preached?

You never made it clear you were listing the essential doctrines.

Now that you've made it clear, can you complete the list and tell me where Jesus made such list?

As for dogmas, we believe, like Peter, in Sacred Tradition, not Scripture alone. Unlike dull people who think that all of Peter's life teachings are contained in those 2 short letters.

OLAADEGBU:

I listed a few up earlier none that you have acknowledged. Tell me how any of the dogmas I posted above qualifies as a teaching that Peter preached?