All human being view their parent as a harsh, nagging, sometimes too wicked when they were been giving a proper child upbringing BUT many people at their independent AGE have looked back to those things their parent did to them and say I THANK YOU FOR THE ROAD YOU'VE LEAD ME TODAY, I thought you're a wicked, unloving and too harsh person before.

The irony part of it is that they all have different view at time of their own little knowledge.

The Bible says in Romans 8:20 "For the CREATURE was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, BUT by the reason of Him(God) who hath subjected the same in HOPE."

NOTICE the word NOT WILLINGLY, the color statement and last word HOPE.


You may call God any name you like as a child did but those who have served God beyond written i.e having personal relationship with Him have their testimony and can look back to say God I thank you for what you've done and the road you've lead me.

Finally, I want you to know that if God truly exists, MAN CAN'T DESIGN HOW TO KNOW HIM RATHER IT'S ONLY GOD WHO CAN DESIGN HOW HE CAN BE KNOWN TO MAN.

I'm a finite being with finite mind trying to discern the mind of an infinite being of God and my post is opened to correction not bashing on me.


Shalom!

Kei144: I can only present my answer to the question of this thread from the viewpoint of the Christian Bible.

Job 1:6 One day the angels [Hebrew the sons of God] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan [Satan means accuser.] also came with them.
Job 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going to and fro in it.”
Job 1:8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no-one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

^^^
These are part of the stories that confirm the bible as a book of fairytales. I never knew people believed that episode. To start with, who was there recording God's conversation with Satan(His supposed enemy)? An omniscient and omnipresent writer, i guess. Such writers intermittently appear in the Bible stories, like when Jesus was taken to places for His temptation. A writer was busy accompanying Him.

Next, God was just placing bet on Job with His counter-iconic Hero (Lucifer). Who knows if he has lost the last bet and been usurped.

kei144:
God created so many (almost infinite) things in the universe.

1Co. 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
1Co. 13:10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

1Jn. 4:16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

When perfection comes, in Eternity, we will all realize the meaning of "God is love."

What love is there in creating a being that you have predestined(as an Omniscient God nah) for "Hell"?

Besides, the whole concept is just warped.
When we get to hell, as eternal beings, we won't die.
The only difference would be that we'll be crying to Lucifer endlessly, while those in Heaven will be kneeling, bowing and prostrating to Yahweh endlessly too.
And there will still be freewill in the mythical afterlife ('cos Lucifer once existed in heaven, according to the fairy, but He used his freewill to challenge Yahweh).

Mtcheew! [size=15pt] the only thing that's gonna happen after death is: SLEEP. Yes, sleep, unending sleep. And don't ask me about indestructibility, 'cos, as matter that we are, energy and matter are indestructible, can never be created nor destroyed [/size]

@ Op...There can never be any agreement between Reason and Religion.

Welcome to Atheism !

I can imagine what would become of my head if I were in an Islamic country.

Another person free from the mental shackles of religion.

qstar:

^^^
These are part of the stories that confirm the bible as a book of fairytales. I never knew people believed that episode. To start with, who was there recording God's conversation with Satan(His supposed enemy)? An omniscient and omnipresent writer, i guess. Such writers intermittently appear in the Bible stories, like when Jesus was taken to places for His temptation. A writer was busy accompanying Him.

Next, God was just placing bet on Job with His counter-iconic Hero (Lucifer). Who knows if he has lost the last bet and been usurped.



What love is there in creating a being that you have predestined(as an Omniscient God nah) for "Hell"?

Besides, the whole concept is just warped.
When we get to hell, as an eternal being, we won't die.
The only difference would be that we'll be crying to Lucifer endlessly, while those in Heaven will be kneeling, bowing and prostrating to Yahweh endlessly too.
And there will still be freewill in the mythical afterlife ('cos Lucifer once existed in heaven, according to the fairy, but He used his freewill to challenge Yahweh).

You forget that Yahweh/Jehovah is more or less an idol or couch potato forever sitting on that chair reading everyone's minds (in heaven and on earth), watching and seeing every sins and scenes including the making of a Live p_orno_graphy. Who the Bleep came up with that concept Like seriously.

Mtcheew! [size=15pt] the only thing that's gonna happen after death is: SLEEP. Yes, sleep, unending sleep. And don't ask me about indestructibility, 'cos, as matter that we are, energy and matter are indestructible, can never be created nor destroyed [/size]

Exactly what I've been thinking!!!!

There is no fuc_king afterlife or eternity somewhere (at least no one, not even "god" gave a proof of it).

At death, we're gone! Yes, gone!

The first humans most probably were moved by the loss of a loved one and tried to believe that their death wasn't the end for them and that they may meet again somewhere; a source of consolation, a rise to religion.

Death ends everything (i.e. Whosoever dies today, dies forever) no Heaven, Hell, Second Death, Judgment, blah blah blah.

Death, as you rightly said, is an unending sleep. The pyramid of energy continues though and as your flesh is eaten by maggots, you become part of other living organisms and the cycle continues. Ecosystem that is.

Your matter (your role in the energy pyramid) goes on a cycle and is not destroyed..... The only thing that is probably lost is your consciousness; you're no longer aware of anything as you were when alive because the organ responsible for such awareness (the brain) has served a good dinner to maggots and prolly scavengers and is no more......

Thanks

Reiyvinn:
The first humans most probably were moved by the loss of a loved one and tried to believe that their death wasn't the end for them and that they may meet again somewhere; a source of consolation, a rise to religion.

Cool.

Your matter (your role in the energy pyramid) goes on a cycle and is not destroyed..... The only thing that is probably lost is your consciousness; you're no longer aware of anything as you were when alive because the organ responsible for such awareness (the brain) has served a good dinner to maggots and prolly scavengers and is no more......

On point!! We are all part of this great ecosystem.

Thanks

You are welcome.
But, still open your mind to more knowledge, if there be proof and reason.

@op

God has the ability to foreknow the future, but He does not use it always. ie, His omniscience is inherent, not total.

No one is going to burn in an everlasting fire. That isn't true. People interprete figurative statement as if it was literal.

God did not create satan, rather a righteous angel God created turned himself into being satan.

JMAN05: @op

God has the ability to foreknow the future, but He does not use it always. ie, His omniscience is inherent, not total.

How do you, a mere mammal like me, know so much? You don't even know this much about Goodluck Jonathan and he's always on TV.

JMAN05: @op

God has the ability to foreknow the future, but He does not use it always. ie, His omniscience is inherent, not total.

No one is going to burn in an everlasting fire. That isn't true. People interprete figurative statement as if it was literal.

God did not create satan, rather a righteous angel God created turned himself into being satan.

I guess you are a JW (Jehovah's Witness), SDA (Seventh-Day Adventist) or one of those who try to make your God more "loving" than it's actually written of him.

Let's analyse your point bit by bit:

God has the ability to foreknow the future, but He does not use it always..

I once witnessed a court case where a man received a sentence regarding a boy who died in his family. He didn't murder this boy. He had worked on his Car earlier and there was oil spill all over. He coulda cleaned it up. He knew it was bad to leave it that way but left it anyway. Unfortunately for him, this young lad walked through that same place that day, slipped, and hit the back of his head on the floor dying on the spot. He unwittingly killed that boy because of his negligence.

The same is the case if we assume that your God has the ability to know if the creation of this being would eventually result to the catastrophic breakdown of his plan for us and yet, refuse to exercise that knowledge..... What is the excuse?

Furthermore, your definition of Omniscience makes your God incompetent and un-Godlike.

Omniscience (gotten from the latin words "OMNI" [all] and "SCIRE" [knowledge]) is not just the "ability" to know all things BUT the knowledge of all things. (just as Omnipotence is not the "ability" to be all-powerful BUT to be all-powerful).

It's both inherent and total (i.e. He, according to the books, has the ability and actually knows all things).

No one is going to burn in an everlasting fire. That isn't true. People interprete figurative statement as if it was literal.

Well that's your problem. I won't stress myself proving the contrary to you. Whether eternal burning or everlasting death/destruction, the All-Knowing and All-Loving God still failed keeping his supposedly "good" purpose for man (which means that there are people who are just created for destruction).

God did not create satan, rather a righteous angel God created turned himself into being satan.

I.) God created a righteous angel who turned himself into being satan:

What has changed? Nothing!

It still talks of a God who failed in his duty as God in that either:

* His original purpose (that this righteous angel remained righteous) failed, or

* His purpose never failed, thus, Satan (not the righteour angel) was his original purpose.

II.) Satan: Once a righteous angel??

Firstly, this statement has no proof.

The "Lucifer" (Shining One) of Isaiah 14:12 isn't referring to Satan but to the King of Babylon in metaphors (the same chapter even stated that the king was thrown down to She'ohl, among the dead..... Is Satan dead?)

Nowhere in the Bible states that God originally made Satan as a righteous angel before he "went wild." rather, the Bible cites Jesus saying that "Satan was a liar and murderer from the beginning" (John 8:44). From the beginning, he was Satan the murderer, never a righeous angel, just a programmed virus designed by God to kill (just as there are lying spirits in heaven designed by God to lie and to deceive people, 2 Chron. 18:21).

What a loving God we have!

Weah96:

How do you, a mere mammal like me, know so much? You don't even know this much about Goodluck Jonathan and he's always on TV.

By constantly configuring his mind to rationalize religious illogicalities!

op, I understand how you feel and willing to unravel the truth together. Where do we start?

From East to West no other God,from North to South I say there is no other GOD except the HOLY Almighty God,The I am that I am,through his begotten son Jesus Christ we are saved.All wisdom belong to him,mortal man searching for answers to all mystery of life is like engraving on the rock of Gibratta.

Those doubting the existence of God should answer this one question,where is the source of juju,voodoo,witchcraft and supernational powers.This powers are they real or not.If they are real where is the source from

JMAN05: @op

God has the ability to foreknow the future, but He does not use it always. ie, His omniscience is inherent, not total.

No one is going to burn in an everlasting fire. That isn't true. People interprete figurative statement as if it was literal.

God did not create satan, rather a righteous angel God created turned himself into being satan.

" Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not
omnipotent.
Is He able, but not willing? Then He is
malevolent.
Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh
evil?
Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?"
Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)

Rayhut: Those doubting the existence of God should answer this one question,where is the source of juju,voodoo,witchcraft and supernational powers.This powers are they real or not.If they are real where is the source from

Your ancestors had that and we're still sold into slavery, their gods did nothing.
Their gods are now works of art in museums.

are you saying that their is no supernatural powers that operate

Rayhut: Those doubting the existence of God should answer this one question,where is the source of juju,voodoo,witchcraft and supernational powers.This powers are they real or not.If they are real where is the source from

lets go by your logic

if juju+voodoo+witchcraft =from satan and Satan is from God then God is not all loving (God is not Benevolent but malevolent

or

if juju+voodoo+witchcraft = from God the God is EVIL

or

if Juju + voodoo+witchcraft =from satan and satan not from god then God is not Omnipotent and Omniscient



anyway the definition of God as defined by religions (especially Abrahamic) it is a complete fallacy

Rayhut: are you saying that their is no supernatural powers that operate

this is one of the fallacies... we dont even know 10% of natural yet people talk about supernatural....same way our forefathers called smallpox,measles,malaria supernatural diseases some hundreds of years back but we now know better


take this if i should travel back in-time to about 2000years ago with my Ipad ,Laptop, AK47, Grenades, Internet, Ferrari and a Helicopter dont you think people back then will worship me and call me God?

Rayhut: are you saying that their is no supernatural powers that operate

Why won't I believe that there are no supernatural powers?
No wonder we win the world cup all the time.

Apatheist:
Why won't I believe that there are no supernatural powers?
No wonder we win the world cup all the time.

But some people use these powers and we cannot deny that there is no such powers,you have not seen where somebody uses basket to hold water and water is not leaking through the basket hole

Rayhut: Those doubting the existence of God should answer this one question,where is the source of juju,voodoo,witchcraft and supernational powers.This powers are they real or not.If they are real where is the source from

Good question. Have you ever heard of placebos, or the placebo effect? I believe that certain potentials of human consciousness remain a mystery to science, and sorcery is one of them. In both sorcery and placebos, what undermines their efficacy is knowledge or observation. In the case of placebos, knowing that you're being given a sugar pill instead of a real medicine causes your symptoms to remain as they are. However, most Africans don't quite understand the mechanism behind sorcery, so the possibility exists that they may be susceptible to its potential, not unlike the patient who unknowingly takes a sugar pill. Not only that, but we've actually been conditioned to believe that it works through years of culture and traditions. Compare that to western culture where a sorcerer might be ridiculed and told to look for real employment. Hollywood movies even allow their heroes to physically confront sorcerers and beat them up, proving that a refutation of sorcery is deeply ingrained in their culture. Having said that, I can assure you that at the source of every voodoo or juju practice is the misuse of entheogens, or visionary plants. That's why they always appear to be drunk or stoned when doing their rituals. The visions are real, at least to the stoned person, but they have nothing to do with you, even if you appear in them, unless you've conditioned yourself to believe in it either through religion or culture.

beejaay:

this is one of the fallacies... we dont even know 10% of natural yet people talk about supernatural....same way our forefathers called smallpox,measles,malaria supernatural diseases some hundreds of years back but we now know better


take this if i should travel back in-time to about 2000years ago with my Ipad ,Laptop, AK47, Grenades, Internet, Ferrari and a Helicopter dont you think people back then will worship me and call me God?

Knowledge is power. If you were to show up even in medieval London with a helicopter, they would have called you ET, until you ran out of gas and had to park your aircraft. Lol.

Rayhut:

[/color]
But some people use these powers and we cannot deny that there is no such powers,you have not seen where somebody uses basket to hold water and water is not leaking through the basket hole

200yrs from nw.what u think is supernatural will be seen as a norm (my grandmother still look at me with wonders whenever she sight me working on my syptem and seeing my forexchart)and we would be looked upon as fools same way we looked at our forefathers for thinking smalpox is supernatural and needed divine intervention. Morale here is that dnt take anything too seriously and form a believe out of it cos b4 u say jack,d shit will be debunk

Rayhut:

[/color]
But some people use these powers and we cannot deny that there is no such powers,you have not seen where somebody uses basket to hold water and water is not leaking through the basket hole

Really?
Do you know you can win a million dollars if you can prove it?

Weah96:

Knowledge is power. If you were to show up even in medieval London with a helicopter, they would have called you ET, until you ran out of gas and had to park your aircraft. Lol.

:-D:-D

The religionists worship a God of the gaps. Whatever they can't fathom, they term it God. What a bad hypothesis!

The invention of the word "soul" is to represent what the medieval men thought to be the consciousness of man. Since they knew little about the internal biological system of man.

My great grand Pa worshipped "the God of Malaria". I've forgotten it's name in the local dialect.

Apatheist:
Really?
Do you know you can win a million dollars if you can prove it?

It wouldn't work in Oyinbo land. There are too many skeptics who are already sure that the s)hit won't work. Plus, unlike Africa, the organizers will check everything to make sure that no prop is involved. African people don't even go close to ordinary magic props. We're very primitive in our mindset, and yet our life expectancy is shorter than the Oyinbo.

Weah96:

It wouldn't work in Oyinbo land. There are too many skeptics who are already sure that the s)hit won't work. Plus, unlike Africa, the organizers will check everything to make sure that no prop is involved. African people don't even go close to ordinary magic props. We're very primitive in our mindset, and yet our life expectancy is shorter than the Oyinbo.

"it's a lie, we believe in God, we live longer, and are more advanced "

qstar: The religionists worship a God of the gaps. Whatever they can't fathom, they term it God. What a bad hypothesis!

The invention of the word "soul" is to represent what the medieval men thought to be the consciousness of man. Since they knew little about the internal biological system of man.

My great grand Pa worshipped "the God of Malaria". I've forgotten it's name in the local dialect.

its called SONPANA

Apatheist:
"it's a lie, we believe in God, we live longer, and are more advanced "

LOL. It has bothered me that there is not a single African or black country that is considered as "first world" though. I've often wondered why.

beejaay: its called SONPANA

Lol