Reiyvinn: Hey NairaLanders,

Put aside the bigoted fanaticism for once and lets reason a little.

All my life I've been a staunch believer in the existence of God and followed him without question. And I've even defended his works as best as I possibly can. So don't come on here thinking that I just woke up one morning with all these dilemma running through my head, ok?

I am not bigoted. I am not loose either. I just can't afford to have my reasoning toyed with (against my will) to the pleasure of someone sitting on a Chair (Throne or whatever) up there in some place they call Heaven.

Now, please don't take it personal. I am not willing to allow myself to get so loose and immoral just because I feel or think there is no one to punish me.

I have come to dig out the truth. I've come to do it with you. So please, just throw off every sentiment and think straight.

Who knows? I may just find what I've been searching for...... The truth.

So if you're with me, I'd like us to look into these little questions carefully.

THE ALL-KNOWING AND ALL-LOVING GOD:

It is a general thesis that God, the supreme Being, knows all things (past, present and future) and even sees an event before it happens. It's also a general belief that God loves everyone equally [since he created us all]. With that in mind, we can tell that he already knows what our future will be before bringing us into existence.

QUESTION: Why then does Satan, Sin, Hell, Destruction, e.t.c exist? People say it was satan but God created Satan, didn't he?

God said his plan for his creation is GOOD, thus, is it right that I KNOW something will corrupt, contaminate, harm or destroy my GOOD plan and then go ahead to create it?

Who killed the people at Nyanya? The Bomb or the People who MADE and PLANTED the bomb??

Since God created Satan. He (the BUILDER) is responsible for the problems we are facing not satan (the BOMB).

Well, maybe he did NOT know that things will turn out this way. Maybe he isn't ALL-KNOWING afterall

Or, maybe he knew but went on with it anyway, maybe he isn't ALL-LOVING afterall

===> this is really worrisome!

Now, things turned out bad and we (the VICTIMS) got caught in Satan's trap (the EXPLOSION) and are continually trying to find our way to survival even though we blame ourselves (the VICTIMS) instead of the Creator (the BUILDER of the BOMB) for bringing such havoc upon us WHEREAS we know that the very fruit of the forbidden tree and the serpent upon it were planted by God himself!!

Please don't tell me that God was "testing us," you only test (or experiment) what you are not sure of. I don't see an ALL-KNOWING God wanting to have his works tested when he ought to have had foreknowledge of what he has created!!!

It was easy to say "Let there be light" and "there was light" in the Scriptures but it is seeming so difficult to say "Let there be peace" and "there was peace" in reality.

Definitely, if God truly exists, he is the cause of all we're going through.

SO MANY STUFFS TO BELIEVE:

I wonder what actually made we Nigerians to give in to the preachings of those white outsiders. I wonder how right thinking persons viewed just one true God and one true religion out of the numerous thousands out there. In Maths, the probability of picking the right one would be approximately 1/100,000. Christians, Muslims, Polytheists, Hindus (ignoring the numerous denominations under them) all claim to have the right God(s) and religion or way of life.

Why would God make it so difficult for people to locate him even while knowing that a lot of these poor people will willingly devout all their lives to him.

Think about a person like Mother Theresa spending an eternity in hell or facing destruction just because she was a catholic and didn't believe in 99,999/100,000 of the other gods besides hers.

Or Mahatma Gandhi believing in a league of Gods but spending an eternity in hell or facing destruction for not knowing the true God or practising the true religion?

What image does that paint for a God who hides himself from his creation and punishes them for not finding him

===> I know quite well that I'll be insulted or ignored because I may be hurting someone's feelings by the above writing but an honest-hearted person will see that I am not here to debate beliefs or criticize anyone but to.......

......yes to QUESTION God (that's if he exists) and since NairaLand is filled with his soldiers, maybe some of you may help him answer me!


Thanks.

I'm not here to argue what you ve written(i dont have all the time to do so), neither am i here to defend God(He can always clarify issues for you when you genuinely and humbly go to him in real prayer). The problem people have is we usualy find it hard to engage God in serious prayer for answers to our confusion rather we ll prefer to hear what others have to say about these issues, draw our conclusions and curse God. Too bad.
I only have these questions for you to ponder on if you care to.

1. What if you die and find out that there is a God and that there is a actually hell fire and that you will burn forever there and that you have no powers to stop yourself from being cast into it just like you didnt have power to stop yourself from dying when death came?

2. We are like travelers, traveling on an unknown route. When you are travelling on a road you ve not gone on before, wouldnt it be wise you obey precaution signs in order to have a safe and successful trip? If you see a sign that there is a ditch ahead would you rather dismiss it as a mere sign erected just to make you slow down and you keep speeding high while claiming that there is no ditch ahead? By the time you fall into the ditch you ll only be full of regrets if you are alive, meanwhile the regrets cannot repair the damages done to the car and to your body. And if you are dead your family carries the burden of regrets and those regrets cannot bring you back to life. Why dont you be a wise traveller?

alexleo:

I'm not here to argue what you ve written(i dont have all the time to do so), neither am i here to defend God(He can always clarify issues for you when you genuinely and humbly go to him in real prayer). The problem people have is we usualy find it hard to engage God in serious prayer for answers to our confusion rather we ll prefer to hear what others have to say about these issues, draw our conclusions and curse God. Too bad.

I see you didn't really read what I wrote; the very post you quoted. I knew this was going to come up so I addressed it accordingly..... I said it crystal-clear that I didn't just wake up one morning and came up with such notions in my head, if you knew me personally or someone close to me, you'd know that I have followed God judiciously and even defended the Christian faith fervently. Praying for answers from God is a stage I passed 2 years ago before the doubts became overwhelming since of course I didn't hear anything from him as did those in the Abrahamic days so I had to pour out my mind on various religious boards. So like I said:
-----------------------------

Reiyvinn: ....don't come on here thinking I just woke up one morning with all this dilemma in my head...

------------------------------

I hope that sinks in.

I only have these questions for you to ponder on if you care to.

1. What if you die and find out that there is a God and that there is a actually hell fire and that you will burn forever there and that you have no powers to stop yourself from being cast into it just like you didnt have power to stop yourself from dying when death came?

Good!! That was the first question I asked myself but do you know what struck me?

The very fact that even if I believed in God's existence, I wasn't guaranteed eternal life. Why?

You are a Christian (you believe in Jesus). According to your faith, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Eckanka, and others who don't accept Jesus as their Lord and saviour will burn forever in hell or face everlasting destruction AND to turn the table around, to each of these Christ unreceivers, you are an apostate who will burn in hell too. So, from each side of the coin, the probability of being saved is approximately 1/100000 which makes salvation more or less like a gamble. Why would a loving God make salvation so unreachable and himself so hidden?

2. We are like travelers, traveling on an unknown route. When you are travelling on a road you ve not gone on before, wouldnt it be wise you obey precaution signs in order to have a safe and successful trip? If you see a sign that there is a ditch ahead would you rather dismiss it as a mere sign erected just to make you slow down and you keep speeding high while claiming that there is no ditch ahead? By the time you fall into the ditch you ll only be full of regrets if you are alive, meanwhile the regrets cannot repair the damages done to the car and to your body. And if you are dead your family carries the burden of regrets and those regrets cannot bring you back to life. Why dont you be a wise traveller?

If I were a traveler taking an unknown route, I'd be very glad to follow those signs but when there are too many signs showing contradictory directions at the same time Do the maths....

Reiyvinn: ?
If I were a traveler taking an unknown route, I'd be very glad to follow those signs but when there are too many signs showing contradictory directions at the same time Do the maths....

You ignore all of them.
They are scare tactics to instigate fear (which is a very bad emotion).

In any case, i do not even know where i was before i was born. Why should i bother myself with where i'll be after-death? I'll probably go back to where i came from- Oblivion.

Hmmmm,I keep learning everyday, Nairaland is such a big bank of tremendous knowledge. Everyday I read comments on Nl I always realise things that never occurred to me before.

What a great argument.

But come to think of it. All of you that are convinced that God doesn't exist,how do you explain the physical manifestation of the holy spirit. I have felt the force of the holy spirit countless times,the first time I felt it I was in a church revival and I felt tremendous force all over me and I met myself on the floor. Explain this!!!!!!

On other occasions after that first event,I could summon the holy spirit and I would feel the same force again almost falling down each time I surmon the spirit and my mouth becomes controlled by another force,I do hear myself speak with So much confidence a language I don't understand, EXPLAIN THIS!!!!!!!

As much evidence as I may have that God perhaps doesn't exist,I just cannot explain the manifestation of the holy spirit that I felt countless times.
Is there a scientific explanation to it?

Dapo777: Hmmmm,I keep learning everyday, Nairaland is such a big bank of tremendous knowledge. Everyday I read comments on Nl I always realise things that never occurred to me before.

What a great argument.

But come to think of it. All of you that are convinced that God doesn't exist,how do you explain the physical manifestation of the holy spirit. I have felt the force of the holy spirit countless times,the first time I felt it I was in a church revival and I felt tremendous force all over me and I met myself on the floor. Explain this!!!!!!

On other occasions after that first event,I could summon the holy spirit and I would feel the same force again almost falling down each time I surmon the spirit and my mouth becomes controlled by another force,I do hear myself speak with So much confidence a language I don't understand, EXPLAIN THIS!!!!!!!

As much evidence as I may have that God perhaps doesn't exist,I just cannot explain the manifestation of the holy spirit that I felt countless times.
Is there a scientific explanation to it?

I've been to many crusades and deliverance services while still a fervent believer but never had this "Holy Ghost/Spirit Manifestation" so I'm won't arrogantly classify what you experienced.

However, I can narrate similar instance:

Martin Luther King Jr. will forever be known and remembered as one of the greatest public speakers ever known. Popularly noted for his "I Have A Dream" speech, he could make tears run down the eyes of millions by merely saying a well doctored word in the right charisma. Late Pop king Michael Jackson made 4 girls and 2 guys go unconscious by merely throwing his hat in their midst, it was reported that one of them may have even reached near-death as a result of the stampede that followed suit. Sad News can even have the same effect of people. A mother could die, faint, run mad (temporarily or permanently), e.t.c on hearing of the death of her child. A person could even do the same, out of excitement in some cases too.

These aren't spiritual.

They're as a result of excessive secretion of adrenalin from the adrenal gland. That's why we hear of cases such as a woman who lifts up the front of a Taxi that stepped on her son's leg. She's doesn't have that strength naturally but what she felt at that point made her do more. Na why e be say when Police or dog pursue man pikin, e go be like say Usain Bolt dey learn.

Reiyvinn:

I've been to many crusades and deliverance services while still a fervent believer but never had this "Holy Ghost/Spirit Manifestation" so I'm won't arrogantly classify what you experienced.

However, I can narrate similar instance:

Martin Luther King Jr. will forever be known and remembered as one of the greatest public speakers ever known. Popularly noted for his "I Have A Dream" speech, he could make tears run down the eyes of millions by merely saying a well doctored word in the right charisma. Late Pop king Michael Jackson made 4 girls and 2 guys go unconscious by merely throwing his hat in their midst, it was reported that one of them may have even reached near-death as a result of the stampede that followed suit. Sad News can even have the same effect of people. A mother could die, faint, run mad (temporarily or permanently), e.t.c on hearing of the death of her child. A person could even do the same, out of excitement in some cases too.

These aren't spiritual.

They're as a result of excessive secretion of adrenalin from the adrenal gland. That's why we hear of cases such as a woman who lifts up the front of a Taxi that stepped on her son's leg. She's doesn't have that strength naturally but what she felt at that point made her do more. Na why e be say when Police or dog pursue man pikin, e go be like say Usain Bolt dey learn.

Do you suggest i was mad all the time I spoke in a different tongue?
Do I have the conscious ability to control my adrenal gland anytime I want to?

Reiyvinn:

I see you didn't really read what I wrote; the very post you quoted. I knew this was going to come up so I addressed it accordingly..... I said it crystal-clear that I didn't just wake up one morning and came up with such notions in my head, if you knew me personally or someone close to me, you'd know that I have followed God judiciously and even defended the Christian faith fervently. Praying for answers from God is a stage I passed 2 years ago before the doubts became overwhelming since of course I didn't hear anything from him as did those in the Abrahamic days so I had to pour out my mind on various religious boards. So like I said:
....

First of all thanks for your responses. Let me answer them the much i can. I"m not here to convince you. It is God alone who can do it best. I have seen atheists convinced by God and they made a very unshakable christians afterward. Nobody preached to them, they just had a personal encounter with God and accepted Jesus. Even in nairaland i ve also seen them so i leave the work of conviction to God.
Having said that, let me inform you that i once passed through this stage you are passing in my christian life. Some other Christians have passed through it. Even in nairaland we have people who have passed through it. I can give you their handle if you care to.There is always a time of shake up of our faith in our christian journey. Even Peter passed through it and he denied Jesus three times but afterwards he preached Christ so fearlessly more than ever before. it is a stage that when you pass through it successfully and remain in Christ, your stand about God becomes strengthened more than ever before.
Like i ve always said, i ve seen christians who went into atheism and came back to christianity after some years. If atheism was actually where the freedom and solution lies as they want us to believe(while accusing christianity as a bondage) why would somebody taste the so called freedom in atheism and still come back to christianity which they say is a bondage? I ve also seen lots of people who were atheists all their lives till they met Christ and they never went back to atheism. I ve never seen an atheist who became a genuine born again christian and later went back to atheism. So where is the much hyped liberation and solution in atheism?

Reiyvinn:
Good!! That was the first question I asked myself but do you know what struck me?

The very fact that even if I believed in God's existence, I wasn't guaranteed eternal life. Why?

You are a Christian (you believe in Jesus). According to your faith, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Eckanka, and others who don't accept Jesus as their Lord and saviour will burn forever in hell or face everlasting destruction AND to turn the table around, to each of these Christ unreceivers, you are an apostate who will burn in hell too. So, from each side of the coin, the probability of being saved is approximately 1/100000 which makes salvation more or less like a gamble. Why would a loving God make salvation so unreachable and himself so hidden?
....

You said you ve been following God judiciously as a christian. so in your walk with God all these years didnt you feel his presence in your life? I mean didnt you experience God in your life, and if you did, how come you now feel you are on the wrong track? Or you were just defending the christian faith only based on what pastor taught you and not also based on personal encounters with God? Well, each person bears the consequences of whatever decision he makes so which ever one you want to join amongst the ones you listed, its still better you ask whichever God that is the supreme God amongst them (be it muslim or budha, Hindu etc) to guide you aright. I still repeat, the worst mistake you can make in life is for you to die and discover that what you said/believed did not exist actually exists and that you ll spend eternity in that horrible place. God forbid. I pray God to help you out my brother. Your soul is of great value more than anything in this world. Being angry with God is never a solution. Making heaven is not difficult because it is by grace that we ll make it. Its only when you begin to feel you can make it by your strength that it appears so difficult. The scripture says- "for by strength shall no man prevail. Lean on God's grace totally and you ll make heaven pls.

Reiyvinn:
If I were a traveler taking an unknown route, I'd be very glad to follow those signs but when there are too many signs showing contradictory directions at the same time Do the maths....

Yea, even when there are so many conflicting signs you wont still throw caution to the wind. Would you?

Dapo777:

Do you suggest i was mad all the time I spoke in a different tongue?
Do I have the conscious ability to control my adrenal gland anytime I want to?

I wouldn't suggest you were mad but I would suggest that it is all in your mind. The mind is a very powerful thing.

qstar:

You ignore all of them.
They are scare tactics to instigate fear (which is a very bad emotion).

Obviously you know you are lying here. If you see many contradictory signs, the fear of being more cautious in your driving will definitely be much at this stage. You people can lie anyhow just to hold on to your atheism. Nobody is forcing you to leave atheism but pls learn to say the truth at all times. Have a balanced reasoning over issues. You people always reason one sided and its too bad.

qstar:


In any case, i do not even know where i was before i was born. Why should i bother myself with where i'll be after-death? I'll probably go back to where i came from- Oblivion.

Check it, life is in stages. You keep progressing from one stage to another. You cant grow old and still turn to a baby to start growing all over again so why do you feel that when you die you ll still go back to wherever you came out from. These are careless assumptions that doesnt depict wisdom in a human being. You have no excuse to give if at the end of your life on earth you discover that you ve deceived yourself all these while. Precaution still remains the wisest thing for a traveler in an unknown route. I pray God to save you. Amen.

Dapo777:

Do you suggest i was mad all the time I spoke in a different tongue?
Do I have the conscious ability to control my adrenal gland anytime I want to?

I didn't say so, that wasn't in my mind. If you want to put words in my mouth thats ok...

I don't know what goes on in your body whenever you allegedly speak in tongues, all I noted were cases of human reactions to extreme excitement, saddness, shock, e.t.c.

No one can control his/her own adrenal gland. You can't control the mechanism that goes on within you e.g heartbeat, blood flow, impulse flow, hormone secretion, e.t.c.

Adrenalin secretion is involuntary, i.e. Cannot be controlled.

alexleo:

Obviously you know you are lying here. If you see many contradictory signs, the fear of being more cautious in your driving will definitely be much at this stage. You people can lie anyhow just to hold on to your atheism. Nobody is forcing you to leave atheism but pls learn to say the truth at all times. Have a balanced reasoning over issues. You people always reason one sided and its too bad.

Goshhh!! What are you saying brother!!!

How can one be cautious with too many contradictory signs when he hasn't been to such a place before Do you have to go against your own common sense just because you want to prove someone wrong

With too many road signs (religions) and too many road maps (scriptures: e.g. Bible, Qur'an, Suktras, Veda, e.t.c) proves that such a place lack good government (or any at all). A place where Governance exists, such nonsense can't be allowed. You can't take caution when you have four roads and four road signs pointing to each road all claiming to lead to your destination. What "caution" could one possibly take

If God truly exist, and is as "Loving" as he is painted, he wouldn't let this happen. Unless he is either not God or does not exist.

Check it, life is in stages. You keep progressing from one stage to another. You cant grow old and still turn to a baby to start growing all over again so why do you feel that when you die you ll still go back to wherever you came out from. These are careless assumptions that doesnt depict wisdom in a human being. You have no excuse to give if at the end of your life on earth you discover that you ve deceived yourself all these while. Precaution still remains the wisest thing for a traveler in an unknown route. I pray God to save you. Amen.

Dude, no one knows anything about death, not even religionists.. You are only TAUGHT by fellow men. You read it in books WRITTEN by men. You may say God inspired them, I can say the same of the writers of the Qur'an, Suktras, Vedas, e.t.c (which bitterly contradict your Bible). All these Books were written by men like me, like you, like qStar, like Jesus, like Mazaje, like Muhammad, like Weah96, e.t.c.

All these Books say about afterlife has no proof, just statements they want you to believe without question.

Humans are no more "special" or "important" than the other animals. Their death is the same as our death (even the writer of Ecclesiastes noticed this). Qstar didn't say we will go back to baby stage, or reverse to unborn stage.

What Qstar was saying, which perfectly makes sense to me, is that we came from nothing and we are going back to nothing, we came from nonexistence and we are going back to nonexistence. That is oblivion: the state of being GONE! VANISHED! ENDED (Yes, the story ends at death).... just like it is with animals.

I know you are thinking with your religiously programmed brain. I understand you perfectly well; after all that was the stage I was in before I finally broke free from its shakles..

alexleo:

First of all thanks for your responses. Let me answer them the much i can. I"m not here to convince you. It is God alone who can do it best. I have seen atheists convinced by God and they made a very unshakable christians afterward. Nobody preached to them, they just had a personal encounter with God and accepted Jesus. Even in nairaland i ve also seen them so i leave the work of conviction to God.
Having said that, let me inform you that i once passed through this stage you are passing in my christian life. Some other Christians have passed through it. Even in nairaland we have people who have passed through it. I can give you their handle if you care to.There is always a time of shake up of our faith in our christian journey. Even Peter passed through it and he denied Jesus three times but afterwards he preached Christ so fearlessly more than ever before. it is a stage that when you pass through it successfully and remain in Christ, your stand about God becomes strengthened more than ever before.
Like i ve always said, i ve seen christians who went into atheism and came back to christianity after some years. If atheism was actually where the freedom and solution lies as they want us to believe(while accusing christianity as a bondage) why would somebody taste the so called freedom in atheism and still come back to christianity which they say is a bondage? I ve also seen lots of people who were atheists all their lives till they met Christ and they never went back to atheism. I ve never seen an atheist who became a genuine born again christian and later went back to atheism. So where is the much hyped liberation and solution in atheism?

SMH! Is this what you have to tell me?!

What is my business with the choice anyone makes?? I've seen an Atheist convert to Buddhism what does that change I should become a buddhist because of that?

You said you ve been following God judiciously as a christian. so in your walk with God all these years didnt you feel his presence in your life? I mean didnt you experience God in your life, and if you did, how come you now feel you are on the wrong track? Or you were just defending the christian faith only based on what pastor taught you and not also based on personal encounters with God? Well, each person bears the consequences of whatever decision he makes so which ever one you want to join amongst the ones you listed, its still better you ask whichever God that is the supreme God amongst them (be it muslim or budha, Hindu etc) to guide you aright. I still repeat, the worst mistake you can make in life is for you to die and discover that what you said/believed did not exist actually exists and that you ll spend eternity in that horrible place. God forbid. I pray God to help you out my brother. Your soul is of great value more than anything in this world. Being angry with God is never a solution. Making heaven is not difficult because it is by grace that we ll make it. Its only when you begin to feel you can make it by your strength that it appears so difficult. The scripture says- "for by strength shall no man prevail. Lean on God's grace totally and you ll make heaven pls.

@bolded

If I ever had a personal experience with God, do you think I'd ever disbelieve him? Going on the wrong path wouldn't be an option at all. But wait..... I did have an experience, a very funny one tho. I experienced constant rise and fall of adrenalin and people taking that for "outpouring of the spirit." (then I realised that the apostles and prophets of old who didn't know what adrenaline was, probably mistook such a feeling to a special touch from God's spirit) which is why I agree so much with a comment I saw in this thread that stated that religion dies a natural death when a new a discovery is found.

@underlined

I defended the faith based on what was written in the Scripture. I made lots of converts. What most pastors teach are just nonsense (absolutely contrary to what is written) and members swallow it like eba. When I say "defend," I don't mean "preach." I was never a preacher but I defended what I believed in back then.

It's just a disappointment though that I defended nothing, believed in nothing, just a mixed up dogma organized by man to gain control of people's minds.

For once I restored my mind to default settings and began to have a rethink. I began to let my reason work, my mind work, my brain work without bias or any sort of fear. Then I came to realise that religion was just a juxtaposition of delusions of various men into one.

Yea, even when there are so many conflicting signs you wont still throw caution to the wind. Would you?

I answered this question about caution in my reply to alexleo

Reiyvinn:

Goshhh!! What are you saying brother!!!

How can one be cautious with too many contradictory signs when he hasn't been to such a place before Do you have to go against your own common sense just because you want to prove someone wrong

With too many road signs (religions) and too many road maps (scriptures: e.g. Bible, Qur'an, Suktras, Veda, e.t.c) proves that such a place lack good government (or any at all). A place where Governance exists, such nonsense can't be allowed. You can't take caution when you have four roads and four road signs pointing to each road all claiming to lead to your destination. What "caution" could one possibly take

If God truly exist, and is as "Loving" as he is painted, he wouldn't let this happen. Unless he is either not God or does not exist.



Dude, no one knows anything about death, not even religionists.. You are only TAUGHT by fellow men. You read it in books WRITTEN by men. You may say God inspired them, I can say the same of the writers of the Qur'an, Suktras, Vedas, e.t.c (which bitterly contradict your Bible). All these Books were written by men like me, like you, like qStar, like Jesus, like Mazaje, like Muhammad, like Weah96, e.t.c.

All these Books say about afterlife has no proof, just statements they want you to believe without question.

Humans are no more "special" or "important" than the other animals. Their death is the same as our death (even the writer of Ecclesiastes noticed this). Qstar didn't say we will go back to baby stage, or reverse to unborn stage.

What Qstar was saying, which perfectly makes sense to me, is that we came from nothing and we are going back to nothing, we came from nonexistence and we are going back to nonexistence. That is oblivion: the state of being GONE! VANISHED! ENDED (Yes, the story ends at death).... just like it is with animals.

I know you are thinking with your religiously programmed brain. I understand you perfectly well; after all that was the stage I was in before I finally broke free from its shakles..

You are accusing christians of believing what men wrote. You too are doing the same thing. We all read people's positions about issues and draw our conclusions. That's life. Your posts here are being read by someone and having influence on them so when people accuse christians of believing what is writting by other men in the scriptures, they themselves should remember they also read and believe what is written by others. At least here you mentioned that what Qstar wrote made sense to you. That's also believing what somebody wrote Its a matter of choice. My point is that everybody is reading and beliving one thing or the other written by some other persons. That's life, its not peculiar to christians as your accusation portrays. If I read the bible and it makes sense to me then that's my choice.
As for the other defences that you put up, like I said, I'm not here to convince you so I wouldn't go on with making further submissions on them. Thanks dear.

alexleo:

You are accusing christians of believing what men wrote. You too are doing the same thing. We all read people's positions about issues and draw our conclusions. That's life. Your posts here are being read by someone and having influence on them so when people accuse christians of believing what is writting by other men in the scriptures, they themselves should remember they also read and believe what is written by others. At least here you mentioned that what Qstar wrote made sense to you. That's also believing what somebody wrote Its a matter of choice. My point is that everybody is reading and beliving one thing or the other written by some other persons. That's life, its not peculiar to christians as your accusation portrays. If I read the bible and it makes sense to me then that's my choice.
As for the other defences that you put up, like I said, I'm not here to convince you so I wouldn't go on with making further submissions on them. Thanks dear.

If you will accept that everything is just the ideas, thoughts and conception of other men like you then that will be fine, but you guys claims that this writings and culture that emanated after this writings are from the force behind this universe when it is actually not so. . The bible, koran, verders etc are all writings of men, that is why so many different religious text exist because all these are ideas men created. . .If you will just leave it at that without too much fuss then every body will be ok i believe. . .

mazaje:

If you will accept that everything is just the ideas, thoughts and conception of other men like you then that will be fine, but you guys claims that this writings and culture that emanated after this writings are from the force behind this universe when it is actually not so. . The bible, koran, verders etc are all writings of men, that is why so many different religious text exist because all these are ideas men created. . .If you will just leave it at that without too much fuss then every body will be ok i believe. . .

And assuming we accept that all these are ideas of men, it means that either your position or my position of life after death will be right. If yours is right it means that when I die that's the end so I have nothing to lose and if mine is right then it means when you die you ll face what you refused to believe. And you know what that means? I know what your next response will be. Until then....

alexleo:

You are accusing christians of believing what men wrote. You too are doing the same thing. We all read people's positions about issues and draw our conclusions. That's life. Your posts here are being read by someone and having influence on them so when people accuse christians of believing what is writting by other men in the scriptures, they themselves should remember they also read and believe what is written by others. At least here you mentioned that what Qstar wrote made sense to you. That's also believing what somebody wrote Its a matter of choice. My point is that everybody is reading and beliving one thing or the other written by some other persons. That's life, its not peculiar to christians as your accusation portrays. If I read the bible and it makes sense to me then that's my choice.
As for the other defences that you put up, like I said, I'm not here to convince you so I wouldn't go on with making further submissions on them. Thanks dear.

I'm not accusing anybody of believing what men wrote. An accusation is an allegation not proven. I am SAYING that all scriptures (Bible, Qur'an) are written by men, (yes!) and of course, you agreed with that.

There is a difference between recorded dogmas and recorded facts.

Qstar didn't convince me, he complimented what I already had in mind.

First of all, there is no proof of a "soul" (i.e. The One you define as the man that lives after death). Such beliefs started as Philosophy before infiltrating into various religions (thanks to Plato, Socrates and Aristotle).

The only "soul" that exists with proof is our CONSCIOUSNESS which is why the Greek word for it is "psykhe." However, this "soul" originates from the brain and is lost when we die.

Furthermore, there is no proof of "spirit" (as many of you religionist even confuse it with your distorted version of "soul". The same came through Philosophy and entered into religion by age.

God, angels, demons, Satan, Realms, Heaven, Pulgatory, Limbo, Hell-Fire, Paradise, Street of Gold (loool, spiritual gold? As in Au??), e.t.c only exist in Books and Minds but have no proof in reality. They owe their domain [in people's minds] to the fact that we humans need a reward, and a tool with which to control people. That's what I call Religious Enterprise Marketing Strategy (R.E.M.S)

The "spirit" that exists is the wind that blows and the air we breathe (no wonder the Hebraic word for it is "ruach" and also refers to substances that have to do with air, air-borne, our breathing, e.t.c (that's where the Greek word "pneuma" comes in; which explains the usage of Pneumonia, Pneumatics, e.t.c in English Language).

I believe in books that speak with proof of reason, work with reason, help reason NOT in books that ignore reason, try to subdue reason, work against reason and yet have no proof! It'd be preposterous to say such a thing makes sense!!

God, being All-knowing, should have known better. Giving us such vast brain power yet making himself unprovable and hidden shows that He/She/It either doesn't give a damn about this Universe or doesn't exist.

Lastly, what got me convinced that the God-concept was man-made was the application of genders to God.

Normally, all religions believe that God is a spirit, not human, not mammal, not material. Thus, the pronoun He (Male) and She (Female) shouldn't be applicable to him since SPIRIT is neuter gender (neither male nor female).

But because we are all from a community that has always been Male-dominant (both human and animal) prior to this egaliterian age, everything "Female" was considered inferior, useless, e.t.c.

Man needed a God like him. A God that heads, leads, pronounces judgment as a King, a God with subjects, a kind of God people could look up to. That was when an imaginary being was invented, crowned, throned and worshiped.... As ages passed by, man began to forget that it was He that made God in his own Image and Likeness and forever lived on believing otherwise.

They needed somebody to blame for the troubles and bless for the pleasures. Ego-driven men (who thought or wanted people to think they had divine contact with this God or Gods) came up with various concepts and then rules. Not the rules of the "God(s)" they claim to speak for but of themselves who they wish to catapult into special recognitions as Seers, Prophets, e.t.c. Writings began to follow, religion began to grow.

"I'm in the truth!" One person says, "No, I am!" the other fires.

They go to various groups to convince them of their position. Discord begins.

With all these happening, the state of religion in this world today shouldn't be a surprise. 100 Million Religions all claiming to be "The Truth," "The Way" and to serve the "True God" the "Right Way" and are guaranteed "Eternal Salvation."

Tell me, can a True God exist in the midst of all these?

If Yes:

* Show us.
* Prove it.

Thank You.

alexleo:

And assuming we accept that all these are ideas of men, it means that either your position or my position of life after death will be right. If yours is right it means that when I die that's the end so I have nothing to lose and if mine is right then it means when you die you ll face what you refused to believe. And you know what that means? I know what your next response will be. Until then....

sure i'll accept the consequence, but the thing is there are many possible options if we are to go by your position, what is allah is the true god, or amun, or bhrama?. . .you and i will lose even though you believe in god but you believe in the wrong god, so belief in god alone is not enough according to your hypothesis, you have to believe in all the gods just in case. . .

alexleo:

And assuming we accept that all these are ideas of men, it means that either your position or my position of life after death will be right. If yours is right it means that when I die that's the end so I have nothing to lose and if mine is right then it means when you die you ll face what you refused to believe. And you know what that means?

Good!!! That's where the problem is at its peak!!!!

When I die and you die, and there's no afterlife, no one has anything to lose (except that the latter has spent all his life worshiping thin air).

And when I die and you die and there's an afterlife......wait.....

The probility that you'll have eternal security will be 1/100,000,000 and the probility that you'll face what YOU (yes YOU) refuse to believe in will be 99,999,999/100,000,000 (since you only believe in just ONE religion out of the hundreds of millions in existence). So may I know your position once more?

^^^^the above remains a collection what you read and your series of thoughts about them so it remains invalid to me just as you also said the one in the bible are not. Like I said, its all a matter of choice. You choose what you are convinced of and I choose mine. If you feel mine is not valid enough then bear in mind that nothing make yours valid enough to me too.

N.B. This post is for your other response above.

alexleo: ^^^^the above remains a collection what you read and your series of thoughts about them so it remains invalid to me just as you also said the one in the bible are not. Like I said, its all a matter of choice. You choose what you are convinced of and I choose mine. If you feel mine is not valid enough then bear in mind that nothing make yours valid enough to me too.

N.B. This post is for your other response above.

*cuckles*

As for the first part of that reply (the part regarding spirit, soul, e.t.c.) they aren't stuff I read but stuffs I found out to be factual, with proof. Yours is without proof.

As for the second part (regarding Man inventing God)
I was making an hypothesis dude!!! Don't you recognise hypotheses when you see one


I still expect a response to my reply tho.

Isaiah 45:5
"I am d lord and there's no other;apart frm me there is no oda god(no greater god worthy of upper case g to start their name).

45:6
"....Men may knw there is none beside me.I am d lord and there's no oda"m

45:7
"I form d light and create darkness;I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I,D Lord,do all these things"

45:9
"Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,to him who is but a potsherd among d potsherds on d ground.
Does d clay say to d potter 'what are u making?'
Does ur work say,'He has no hands?'

45:10
Woe to him who says his father,'what av u begotten?' Or his mother,'what av u brought to birth?'

45:11
"This is what d Lord says-the Holy one of isreal,and its Maker:concerning things to come,do u question me about my children, or give me orders about d work of my hands?

45:12
"It is I who made d earth nd created mankind upon it.My own hands stretched out d heavens; I marshalled their(your) starry hosts"

45:15
"Truly you are a God who hides himself O God and saviour of Isreal"

45:18
"For this is what d lord says-He who created d heavens,he is God;he who fashioned and made d earth,he founded it;he did not create it to be empty,bt formed it to be inhabited-he says:I am d Lord and there's no other."

45:19
"I have nt spoken in secret,from somewhere in a land of darkness;I have nt said to Jacob's descendants,'seek me in vain'.I the lord, speak d truth;I declare what is right."

45:24
"......all u who have raged against Him will come to him and be put to shame"..




Plss go nd read d whole of Isaiah 45 and please clear ur mind,dnt read it cos' u wanna criticize it,read it cos u wanna be convinced nd cos' u wanna gain more knwledge.(Pray for His divine understanding.
It seems He already knew even before d advent of civilization nd modernization dat this(dis argument) would happen nd u knw what?.he gave us points to support our belief...left to u to criticize me and God's action bt 1 tin is for sure.......THERE IS GOD and NOone can change dat fact

alexleo: ^^^^the above remains a collection what you read and your series of thoughts about them so it remains invalid to me just as you also said the one in the bible are not. Like I said, its all a matter of choice. You choose what you are convinced of and I choose mine. If you feel mine is not valid enough then bear in mind that nothing make yours valid enough to me too.

N.B. This post is for your other response above.

dude... with what you just wrote above... do you still believe atheists might be on the wrong side of belief?

mazaje:

sue i'll accept the consequence, but the thing is there are many possible options if we are to go by your position, what is allah is the true god, or amun, or bhrama?. . .you and i will lose even though you believe in god but you believe in the wrong god, so belief in god alone is not enough according to your hypothesis, you have to believe in all the gods just in case. . .

In that case I ll rather not go with your position which offers me no risk, no punishment. I already have nothing to lose if your position is what obtains in the afterlife whether I serve God or not so I don't need to bother myself about it. I ll rather bother myself about these other ones that have provision for punishment for unbelievers in the after life (I.e christianity and islam. I ve not seen the the other religion talk about eternal punisment or hell fire in the after life) and search of which of these gods or God have the supreme power, and of course being on the side of being on the side of the supreme God means I'm very safe in the afterlife.

Again even if we all believe that all these relgious books are written by inspiration and ideas of men and there is any of them that is actually written by the inspiration of the supreme God, will our believe change that? No sir.

frank3.16:


dude... with what you just wrote above... do you still believe atheists might be on the wrong side of belief?

The point I'm making is that you atheists always feel you are on the right track. You dismiss other people's belief even when your own belief is not 100 percent sure.

Reiyvinn:

*cuckles*

As for the first part of that reply (the part regarding spirit, soul, e.t.c.) they aren't stuff I read but stuffs I found out to be factual, with proof. Yours is without proof.

As for the second part (regarding Man inventing God)
I was making an hypothesis dude!!! Don't you recognise hypotheses when you see one


I still expect a response to my reply tho.

Oga I'm not here to convince you, neither am I here to debate God with you. I don't debate the existence of God with people. You ve made your choice and that's for you, I ve made my choice and that's for me. Nothing makes your choice more superior than mine. Cheers.

onetrack:

I wouldn't suggest you were mad but I would suggest that it is all in your mind. The mind is a very powerful thing.

I was hypnotized?

alexleo:

In that case I ll rather not go with your position which offers me no risk, no punishment. I already have nothing to lose if your position is what obtains in the afterlife whether I serve God or not so I don't need to bother myself about it. I ll rather bother myself about these other ones that have provision for punishment for unbelievers in the after life (I.e christianity and islam. I ve not seen the the other religion talk about eternal punisment or hell fire in the after life) and search of which of these gods or God have the supreme power, and of course being on the side of being on the side of the supreme God means I'm very safe in the afterlife.

Again even if we all believe that all these relgious books are written by inspiration and ideas of men and there is any of them that is actually written by the inspiration of the supreme God, will our believe change that? No sir.

At least tackle mine that followed after his reply...

@bolded

if you think you only have to contend with two bodies namely Christianity and Islam for Afterlife, I quote Patience, "Na only you waka come ooh."

Check out chart of World common religions and those that hold the Afterlife view they are numerous!

So as you can see, you do have a lot of contenders.

@underlined

Whether there is a supreme God or not, you haven't proven to us why we should believe that out of those numerous Gods, we should take your God as the supreme God. Just as you believe in Yahweh/Jehovah as the Supreme God, Muslims believe Allah is the Supreme God, Greek Mythologist believed Zeus is the Supreme God, Hindus believe Brahman is the Supreme God, e.t.c. So How many Supreme Gods do we have? Or is Yahweh/Jehovah the same as Allah, Zeus, Brahman, e.t.c? The same thing that makes you feel safe for afterlife makes a Muslim, Greek mythologist and Hindu feel safe, too. In other words, they don't need your Christ for Salvation just as you don't need their Gurus, Muhammad and demi-gods, too. Now the scale's balanced. What did you say was your position again?

@bolded and underlined

that's warped and highly laughable. If the Bible, Qur'an, Suktras, Vedas, e.t.c were just written by man's ideas (or should I say fantasy or imagination) then the case is settled:

God is just a story just like Tortoise in the Animal kingdom BUT a group of men could spoon-feed their children with such stories without letting them know its origin and with such configuration in the Child's head, future children will get to believe the same thing in a matter of time. That was how Nigerians got to believe Samuel Okwaraji died hitting his leg against a ball turned stone in a Match against India which we lost 100-1 but were given a Trophy by some unknown federation. That's how stories spread, that's how religion starts.

Dapo777:

I was hypnotized?

hmmmmmmm!! That may have been the word I was looking for!!

alexleo:

The point I'm making is that you atheists always feel you are on the right track. You dismiss other people's belief even when your own belief is not 100 percent sure.

Hmmmm!! I now understand that you have the wrongest idea of what makes an Atheist.

I became an Atheist because I once thought I knew who made all these things, I once thought I knew the Creator, I once thought that I knew the way to Eternal Life (i.e. By Surrendering my Entire Life to Christ as my Lord and Saviour), I once thought I knew the Truth, I once thought I knew where I was going, I once thought I was 100% sure.

.....but then.....

I came to realise that I knew no creator, I knew no truth, I was brainwashed....

Atheism is not a religion. I don't expect a reward for what I spend my data plan doing here on NL. I am not holier than thou and don't expect punishment for whosoever doesn't share my belief.

Atheism is new birth. You allow nature take its course and reason + reality lead you through. In Atheism I'm free from any sort of bias, I have nothing to fear so I dig into even where religionist condemn for enlightenment. An atheist knows you can never be 100% sure so when a "God" (as painted by others) claims to be, we put such a God to the test. And when such a God fails..... You know what's next....

It's not as if God cannot do something very wonderous today (e.g. Heal an Amputee) in the sights of many. He can. After all, he created us all, didn't he? ===> This is what you want us to believe of Him.

This something that will rid the World of atheism forever!!

You keep talking of "path." Dude, Atheism is NOT a belief!! It's a LACK OF belief.

Lemme define Atheism:

Having no reason to believe in the existence of a god.

Got that?!

Dapo777:
I was hypnotized?

Reiyvinn:
hmmmmmmm!! That may have been the word I was looking for!!

Hypnosis sounds more like a magical art. It is most likely "hysteria". Excessive hysteria. Overwhelmed.

alexleo:
And assuming we accept that all these are ideas of men.

Dude, you miss the point. Atheism is not the idea(s) of men. Atheism is inherent/innate. No new born child knows any God(s). Anybody that can reason without fear, emotions and indoctrinations, comes to the realisation that death is just natural. For whatsoever has a beginning must have an end, just natural.

BTW, I have not seen many proud atheists. Your next door neighbour might be an atheist and you would not know. Silence is golden.

Reiyvinn:
You keep talking of "path." Dude, Atheism is NOT a belief!! It's a LACK OF belief.

Lemme define Atheism:

Having no reason to believe in the existence of a god.

Got that?!

That guy makes me laugh. If he says atheism is a religion/belief, then abstinence is a s.ex position.

Toyolad:
Isaiah 45:6
"....Men may knw there is none beside me.I am d lord and there's no oda"

.

The Qu'ran says: La Ilaha Illalah. there is no God but Allah, and Mohammad(pbuh) is His last messenger.

Isaiah 45:7
"I form d light and create darkness;I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I,D Lord,do all these things"

^^
This simply shows that there is either no God or no Satan. And if there is God, He isn't all-loving. Give me the power of omnipotence for a minute and i will eradicate malaria, HIV/AIDS and cancer atleast.

Isaiah 45:9
"Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,to him who is but a potsherd among d potsherds on d ground.
Does d clay say to d potter 'what are u making?'
Does ur work say,'He has no hands?'

What are you saying? That doesn't make any sense. Are human beings like potsherd? We are human beings and gast to reason things out. If he(God) didn't want us to ask questions and be inquisitive, He could simply have made us so. I do not have any semblance with a robot, i don't know about you.