nairalife2013: .

Thanks for your presentation. I. Picked some things from your point thanks.

texanomaly: I had a comment, but changed my mind.

Why did you change your mind? The purpose of this thread is for us to have contributions about the other side of God. Its not a thread to defend God or to abuse him. Its a thread to state our views and understanding about some of his actions(judgement/wrath) with regards to the fall of lucifer and the fall of man and its attendant consequences in life generally. Sometimes these questions bothers us and we shy away from asking it due to the fear of incuring God's wrath in our lives but then God never said we shouldn't ask or that we shouldn't discuss it. The truth is that none of us can give a perfect answer to these questions but a collection of various views here can help us have a better insight to these issues about God. What I presented is my own views and I'm not saying that its a perfect answer. God bless you.

frosbel: Nice post and hello all.

I will make two quick comments and hopefully join tomorrow evening ;

1. All Angels and Men have free will , God does not create robots except of course animals which are rather instinctive.

2. God being the source of eternal life does not in any way infer eternal torment , it rather signifies eternal life for all who make the right choice and the lack of it for those who make the wrong choices.


See you later .

Nice to have you here bro. Ok. Waiting for your input. But like I earlier said pls remember that the major issue here is his judgement
/wrath with regards to the fall of lucifer and the fall of man and its consequences in life generally. Then you may link it up with your position on eternal torment. God bless you.

Goshen360: Okay. E be like say this topic go sweet.

I don siddon o. Waiting! !!

hopelink1: I really like this post , we see God as a merciful one and most of the preachers out there always talk about the kind, merciful side of him but HE is God. Hosea 12:7 says 'HE is a merchant, the balances of deceit are in his hand. he loveth to oppress.' but after all I conclude that God is wicked to the Wicked and merciful to the Just. I so submit

CrazyMan: The op shouldn't keep us waiting for too long...this thread looks interesting.

Una welcome o. Make contributions pls. God bless you.

alexleo:

Why did you change your mind? The purpose of this thread is for us to have contributions about the other side of God. Its not a thread to defend God or to abuse him. Its a thread to state our views and understanding about some of his actions(judgement/wrath) with regards to the fall of lucifer and the fall of man and its attendant consequences in life generally. Sometimes these questions bothers us and we shy away from asking it due to the fear of incuring God's wrath in our lives but then God never said we shouldn't ask or that we shouldn't discuss it. The truth is that none of us can give a perfect answer to these questions but a collection of various views here can help us have a better insight to these issues about God. What I presented is my own views and I'm not saying that its a perfect answer. God bless you.

Nice...

Thanks

alexleo:

Nice to have you here bro. Ok. Waiting for your input. But like I earlier said pls remember that the major issue here is his judgement
/wrath with regards to the fall of lucifer and the fall of man and its consequences in life generally. Then you may link it up with your position on eternal torment. God bless you.

in regard to lucifer...I hear people talk about him as if he is a man. I thought part of his punishment was that he will never receive a body.

Forgive my forgetfulness
Its been long since i read the bible cover to cover

can someone please help point out where it is said in the bible that the second death (lake of fire) will be forever for humans

Thanks

Interesting post I must say..

The other side of God......Seriously when we say God is love, God is merciful, God is compassionate etc etc, I would God is all these and more. A better way to see God's nature is from the point of 'Justice'. God is Just and his justice is very pregnant. A gross misunderstanding of this nature of God has made many loose faith in him, others get mad at him and others could not simply comprehend how a loving God could sometimes act the way he does.

Secondly am also of the opinion that neither angels nor man was created by God without freewill.

Will be back to explain......

SalC: Interesting post I must say..

The other side of God......Seriously when we say God is love, God is merciful, God is compassionate etc etc, I would God is all these and more. A better way to see God's nature is from the point of 'Justice'. God is Just and his justice is very pregnant. A gross misunderstanding of this nature of God has made many loose faith in him, others get mad at him and others could not simply comprehend how a loving God could sometimes act the way he does.

Good point there. God bless u. Many see God only from the love angle forgetting that he is also a judge. His love is great and his wrath is great too. He never hid this from man but sometimes we pretend as if we don't know. Sometimes too our selfish nature which makes us desire to receive good even when we give out evil also make us see God from the love angle only and use it to condemn the other side of him. Many have left the faith due to this one sided view.

SalC:

Secondly am also of the opinion that neither angels nor man was created by God with freewill.

Will be back to explain......

Ok waiting for your explanation.

..

texanomaly:

in regard to lucifer...I hear people talk about him as if he is a man. I thought part of his punishment was that he will never receive a body.

Isaiah 14;12

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, [b]O Lucifer, son of the morning! [/b]how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Does the above scripture help in explaining?

alexleo:

Good point there. God bless u. Many see God only from the love angle forgetting that he is also a judge. His love is great and his wrath is great too. He never hid this from man but sometimes we pretend as if we don't know. Sometimes too our selfish nature which makes us desire to receive good even when we give out evil also make us see God from the love angle only and use it to condemn the other side of him. Many have left the faith due to this one sided view.



Ok waiting for your explanation.

Sorry, I meant "without freewill", that was a typo, both we and angels have freewill.

SalC: Sorry, I meant "without freewill", that was a typo, both we and angels have freewill.

ok. so explain

alexleo:

Isaiah 14;12

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, [b]O Lucifer, son of the morning! [/b]how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Does the above scripture help in explaining?

No

hopelink1: I really like this post , we see God as a merciful one and most of the preachers out there always talk about the kind, merciful side of him but HE is God. Hosea 12:7 says 'HE is a merchant, the balances of deceit are in his hand. he loveth to oppress.' but after all I conclude that God is wicked to the Wicked and merciful to the Just. I so submit

Yes just like:

◄ Deuteronomy 32:39 ►

"See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

◄ Job 5:18 ►
For though he wounds, he also bandages. He strikes, but his hands also heal.

◄ Romans 9:13 ►

Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Why I might ask. What has Esau done to deserve God's hate? What is loving about an unjust hate for a young Esau? See also Malachi 1:3

If God is love as stated in John 4:8, how could He hate anyone?
Does God hate redheads? (Gen.25:25) Hunters? (Gen.25:27) Polygamists (Gen.26:34), or what?

omonuan:

Yes just like:

◄ Deuteronomy 32:39 ►

"See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

◄ Job 5:18 ►
For though he wounds, he also bandages. He strikes, but his hands also heal.

◄ Romans 9:13 ►

Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Why I might ask. What has Esau done to deserve God's hate? What is loving about an unjust hate for a young Esau? See also Malachi 1:3

If God is love as stated in John 4:8, how could He hate anyone?
Does God hate redheads? (Gen.25:25) Hunters? (Gen.25:27) Polygamists (Gen.26:34), or what?

Romans 9 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

11 Before the children had been born or had done anything good or bad, Rebekah was told that the older child would serve the younger one. This was said to Rebekah so that God’s plan would remain a matter of his choice, 12 a choice based on God’s call and not on anything people do.[b] 13 The Scriptures say, “I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau.”
14 What can we say—that God is unfair? That’s unthinkable! 15 For example, God said to Moses, “I will be kind to anyone I want to. I will be merciful to anyone I want to.” 16 Therefore, God’s choice does not depend on a person’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
17 For example, Scripture says to Pharaoh, “I put you here for this reason: to demonstrate my power through you and to spread my name throughout the earth.” 18 Therefore, if God wants to be kind to anyone, he will be. If he wants to make someone stubborn, he will.
19 You may ask me, “Why does God still find fault with anyone? Who can resist whatever God wants to do?”
20 Who do you think you are to talk back to God like that? Can an object that was made say to its maker, “Why did you make me like this?” 21 A potter has the right to do whatever he wants with his clay. He can make something for a special occasion or something for everyday use from the same lump of clay.
22 If God wants to demonstrate his anger and reveal his power, he can do it

^^^God's love is great and his wrath is equally great. Its not as if he has hidden this fact from man. Infact he also mentioned that he is the God of vegeance, he can kill and he can restore to life. If he had told us that he is only a loving God and that he cannot be angry or visit wrath on people then we can now accuse him of doing what he said he will not do. We should remain grateful to God that he is loving enough to make known these attributes of him to us and providing a way of escape for us. Whether we like it or not, God is in charge of the whole creation and he has the right to control any creature in line with any of his attributes. Life must go in compliance with his style. Let these truths sink in us.

If he could harden the heart of pharoah in order to make manifest his power, then it is possible that Lucifer's rebellion may have taken place purposely to make manifest his judgement/wrath. Its possible. God's ways are different. He must not do things our own way.

esere826: Forgive my forgetfulness
Its been long since i read the bible cover to cover

can someone please help point out where it is said in the bible that the second death (lake of fire) will be forever for humans

Thanks

Revelation 20.

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Mark 9;43
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched.

texanomaly:

No

Ok. May be I didn't get your question.

alexleo:

ok. so explain

Sorry, I couldn't come back till now.

Angels as we know; are spirit creatures of God, though they can take up human body or say appear in human form if need be. God created them so yet not as his puppets or robots to be glued to his will alone but with free will and some quality which equally aids free will.

Free will is simply the "ability to make choices and decision" there certainly isn't a free will devoid of the ability of the said being to make choices and decisions, wills, and these to can only be made possible if the said being, possesses intelligence, can have feelings or emotions.

Let me give an instance of "no free will"
Let's say a programmed robot, this is an object that has been programmed and made capable of doing a thing without the ability of doing other, the reason why it cannot do otherwise is because it is incapable of even thinking on it's own, there is no room for emotion or compassion in it, it is incapable of going beyond the extent to which it was programmed, that is to say, outside the extent to which it was programmed, it is completely un-intelligent. It doesn't know of the possibility of anything outside what it already is, lack of emotion makes it insensitive to any other thing, it doesn't ever feel cheated or think it is capable of being like it's maker. ....that's a typical example of "no free will"

But when we talk about angels and humans, the reverse is the case, both we and angels possess some attributes or qualities which goes a long way to show free will and it's aids. On the part of humans, the evidence is overwhelming in our everyday life, so I will simply concentrate more on the angels.
Let's take a look at some of these qualities possessed by angels according to the scriptures....

EMOTION/FEELING
We read in Job 38:7 "while the morning stars sang together, and all the angels shouted for joy"
Here we see the angel rejoicing, ...a feeling of immense happiness which stems from the emotional feeling of fulfilment hence we can say, even angels feel emotionally satisfied or fulfilled. Therefore on the other hand, they also are capable of feeling the opposite, (unhappy and unsatisfied) and this is emotion on display.

DESIRE
1Pet 1:12
It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven Even angels long to look into these things
Here we see angels desiring to see or do a thing, that's to say they feel the need to acquire or know something which they probably do not know, these cannot be possible in the absence of free will, one who has not free will doesn't even realise there's something he ought to know or do which he has done already.

WILL
Isaiah 14:12-14
How are you fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn. You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven, I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.
Considering that Lucifer said the above before he was thrown down, that's a lot of "I will" for one who has no free will.
For an angel to will the above, shows that it must have felt unsatisfied and cheated and knew of the possibility of attaining a new height.....that too doesn't sound like the absence of free will.


We can also see volition in the actions of the angels....
Jude :6
And the angels which kept not their first estate but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day.
Here it is revealed that angels have volition for some chose to stray/sin while others do not. This requires their volition, that means they had the free will to choose to remain with or go against God, there was "reason/intelligence", and the ability to choose between two ends of a thing.

In the light of the above, I couldn't but say angels do have free will.

alexleo:

Revelation 20.

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Mark 9;43
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched.

Looking at these scriptures again
it does leave some question marks

Whereas it explicitly suggests that the devil, beast and false prophet
will be tormented forever in the lake

However, it does not suggest the same for humans
in fact if you peer closely at the verses,
it could also suggest that after humans have
faced the torment/formlessness of hell/death

those not found in the required books, and death and hades
will be obliterated by the fiery lake -the 2nd death

alexleo:

Isaiah 14;12

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, [b]O Lucifer, son of the morning! [/b]how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Does the above scripture help in explaining?

Considering that we are generelly challenging a number of assumptions

From what period in time did it come to be taken that this scripture referred to the devil?
Other passages in Isiah seem to be allegories of kingdoms and kings of that time.

Why the romantization that that "son of the morning" was referring to Satan?
Who says for example that it was not nimrod or some leader who sought to build the tower of Babel to reach unto the heavens?

SalC: .

Your explanation is quite a good one. Now in the light of what you ve explained, will you attribute Lucifer's fall to freewill? How?

esere826:

Looking at these scriptures again
it does leve some question marks

Whereas it explicitly suggests that the devil, beast and false prophet
will be tormented forever in the lake

However, it does not suggest the same for humans
in fact if you peer closely at the verses,
it could also suggest that after humans have
faced the torment/formlessness of hell/death

those not found in the required books, and death and hades
will be obliterated by the fiery lake -the 2nd death

Well thats your own understanding of it. Lets see what others have to say about it. But for me, I dont really care about hell or lake of fire because, by the grace of God I am not going there. Whether those who will be cast into it will spend one second or a minute or eternity, I am not going there. I am for Jesus from now till eternity.

esere826:

Considering that we are generelly challenging a number of assumptions

From what period in time did it come to be taken that this scripture referred to the devil?
Other passages in Isiah seem to be allegories of kingdoms and kings of that time.

Why the romantization that that "son of the morning" was referring to Satan?
Who says for example that it was not nimrod or some leader who sought to build the tower of Babel to reach unto the heavens?

Read that scripture thoroughly and you will see that its not about some tower of Babel person.

torchwave: Hello

Too many have gone astray, died along the way, become disillusioned and lost their precious faith, while much too many are headed in the direction of eternal perdition because they have not been able to FULLY understand the nature of God.

It is not uncommon to hear people say a loving God will never condemn any of His creation to hell. That is even better than those who believe there is no hell because, according to them, a loving God will never create a place like hell.

To know God is to know his nature. He is a God of love as well as a God of wrath. God has made known His nature to us numerous times in His Word so much that it should be something that is well known to anyone who reads his or her Bible. Knowing, teaching or being familiar with just a part of His nature leads to very grave doctrinal error that could cost the soul of such person and, worse, others.

I also believe God never created angels or man without freewill. There are no robots in heaven. God does not make robots. If Lucifer, a robot, sinned against God, the logical thing to do would be to repair him, or discard him as faulty but never to punish him for a 'mechanical' fault he committed as machines do not know good or evil. In that case, God would be blamed for Lucifer's malfunction in addition to being unfair for harshly treating Lucifer in the manner He did.

Even if God should design machines and call them angels, there would be no need to punish or reward them since they will always achieve and carry out the functions they were designed to do. Op, this is where your theory of angelic robots reveal a wide hole.

I shall continue this later when I have the time...

Your points are good. Now my question is-
If angels have free will, why didnt God make provision for forgiveness or salvation for them as he made for man who is also a free moral agent? And the scripture said that our redemption plan was made from the foundation of the world(which means at the very beginning). This could mean that God knew that man being a free moral agent could choose to sin therefore he made a way of salvation for us. But he never made such for angels, which could also mean that angels were not meant to choose like man. Or could it be that lucifer took God unawares?

alexleo:

Your points are good. Now my question is-
If angels have free will, why didnt God make provision for forgiveness or salvation for them as he made for man who is also a free moral agent? And the scripture said that our redemption plan was made from the foundation of the world(which means at the very beginning). This could mean that God knew that man being a free moral agent could choose to sin therefore he made a way of salvation for us. But he never made such for angels, which could also mean that angels were not meant to choose like man. Or could it be that lucifer took God unawares?

Nowhere did the bible indicate that Adam and Eve were given the provision for forgiveness or salvation, God passed a judgement of death to them. Just as Adam died, every child belonging to him was also condemned to die until Jesus used his life as a ransom sacrifice to adopt us as his children to give us life when he prevailed over death. Satan along with the unfaithful angels angels will soon meet their death in the lake of fire. It is important to note that from the moment we begin to exercise faith in Jesus christ, we are no longer part of the Adamic family that is doomed to death, our father becomes Jesus in whom there is life in abundance.

The reason why we are able to ask for forgiveness is because of our imperfection, it makes us susceptible to sin. Think of it this way, if you are seriously overweight and doctors tell you that you really need to reduce your weight or you will die. But despite your gallant effort you could not stop yourself from eating the junk food that is making you fat, not because you did not believe what your doctor said about being seriously overweight, but because you found it virtually impossible to fight your overwhelming craving for junk food. Compare it to another person that doesn't have this kind of craving for junk food but decides to be gorging himself with junk food in an attempt to prove to the doctor that it cannot do harm to his body. That is how it is with perfect people when they sin, it is totally willful. Adam could have resisted the devil had he wanted to but he chose to embrace the devil instead. Whereas an imperfect man is constantly trying to do what is right but keeps finding himself doing wrong from time to time.
It is as a result of the weakness, brought about by our imperfection that God made the provision for us to be forgiven and saved, it has nothing to do with free will.

dorox:

Nowhere did the bible indicate that Adam and Eve were given the provision for forgiveness or salvation, God passed a judgement of death to them. Just as Adam died, every child belonging to him was also condemned to die until Jesus used his life as a ransom sacrifice to adopt us as his children to give us life when he prevailed over death. Satan along with the unfaithful angels angels will soon meet their death in the lake of fire. It is important to note that from the moment we begin to exercise faith in Jesus christ, we are no longer part of the Adamic family that is doomed to death, our father becomes Jesus in whom there is life in abundance.
.

But before Jesus came people's sins were forgiven in the old testament.

Blind leading the blinder.

AlfaSeltzer: Blind leading the blinder.

satan always wandering about.

[size=17]I think, there are some matters Christians should profess Agnosticism when they're raised.[/size]