alexleo:


Romans 9 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

11 Before the children had been born or had done anything good or bad, Rebekah was told that the older child would serve the younger one. This was said to Rebekah so that God’s plan would remain a matter of his choice, 12 a choice based on God’s call and not on anything people do.[b] 13 The Scriptures say, “I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau.”
14 What can we say—that God is unfair? That’s unthinkable! 15 For example, God said to Moses, “I will be kind to anyone I want to. I will be merciful to anyone I want to.” 16 Therefore, God’s choice does not depend on a person’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
17 For example, Scripture says to Pharaoh, “I put you here for this reason: to demonstrate my power through you and to spread my name throughout the earth.” 18 Therefore, if God wants to be kind to anyone, he will be. If he wants to make someone stubborn, he will.
19 You may ask me, “Why does God still find fault with anyone? Who can resist whatever God wants to do?”
20 Who do you think you are to talk back to God like that? Can an object that was made say to its maker, “Why did you make me like this?” 21 A potter has the right to do whatever he wants with his clay. He can make something for a special occasion or something for everyday use from the same lump of clay.
22 If God wants to demonstrate his anger and reveal his power, he can do it

alexleo:
Read that scripture thoroughly and you will see that its not about some tower of Babel person.

esere826:

Isaiah 14
How are you fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn. You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven,...

..sounds more like the aspirations of the tower of Babel to me. From the earth they built upwards and were then dispersed. It might not be the case sha.

Compare to Ezekiel 28: 15
You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15"You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. 16"By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of ...

..Now this sounds more like Satan. Note there is a direct reference to cherub here, I also noticed that folks dont often use the Ezekiel verse. Many probably haven't seen this

alexleo:

Your explanation is quite a good one. Now in the light of what you ve explained, will you attribute Lucifer's fall to freewill? How?

alexleo:

Your points are good. Now my question is-
If angels have free will, why didnt God make provision for forgiveness or salvation for them as he made for man who is also a free moral agent? And the scripture said that our redemption plan was made from the foundation of the world(which means at the very beginning). This could mean that God knew that man being a free moral agent could choose to sin therefore he made a way of salvation for us. But he never made such for angels, which could also mean that angels were not meant to choose like man. Or could it be that lucifer took God unawares?

SalC: Strictly speaking I won't attribute his fall to free will , if I understood you, you are saying if there was not free will, there wouldn't have been any room for Lucifer's fall, ..... Probably, but I will also say, free will is not a licence to sin,

I prefer saying Lucifer's fall is attributed to how he chose to channel his free will. Notice that he is not the only one to whom this free will was granted, the angels who refused to join him where also exercising their free will, whereas they channelled theirs in the right way, Luciifer allowed pride take over the better part of him and that led to his fall. The free will is not really the issue but what he chose to do with it is.

torchwave:

One more thing, nothing takes God by surprise. Absolutely nothing![/i]

alexleo:

Ok. Do you think that God knew that lucifer will sin before creating him? If yes why do you think he still created him knowing the consequences of it?

alexleo:

But before Jesus came people's sins were forgiven in the old testament.

SalC: This is a tough one

Well I believe God knew that giving both angels and humans free will will certainly result in either of the two ends. Ie obedience and disobedience. And since God is omniscient, I can certainly say he knew Lucifer will sin.

Coming to why he went ahead to create him, I will have to state here that our (my) understanding here is limited and/or impaired. There are things I believe we may not fully understand about God till we cross over

Having said that....

I believe God went ahead to create Luciifer because he isn't just after creating only those who will always be subject to him even against their wish. He rather created those who will exercise their free will not only to please him but to make every side of him known.

For instance, if Lucifer never sinned God wouldn't have cast him out and we wouldn't have known God is capable of casting out heavenly dwellers. Same can be said about God creating the tree at the centre of the garden and instructing Adam not to eat of it. Why will he even create such? I would say eating the fruit of that tree is the only option he kept for them to exercise their free will in the negative direction, that is, if he had created them with free will without providing an "object" or "option" on which they can act if they choose to exercise their free will in the wrong way, then it's as Good as he never created them with free will.

In thesame manner, if he had not created Lucifer because he knew Lucifer will sin, that mean he really never wanted his creatures to exercise their free will.

Don't know if I remotely passed the massage in an understandable way

dorox:

Have you read in the bible where Jesus said that he is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through him. -John 14:6
Compare the above scripture with Romans 5:12-18 with particular attention to verses 12,18 and 19. What is your take on it with regards to your statement that people's sins were forgiven in the old testament?

alexleo:

Atonement were made for sin with the sacrifice of animal in the old testament. Am i wrong?

dorox:
You are right in the sense that sin offerings were made using animal blood in the old testament, but it was only a token, not the actual price for the sins of those men. Sin was never actually forgiven on the basis of animal sacrifice. Read Heb 10:1-4, it is self explanatory.

alexleo:

I know that the highest sacrifice for sin remains that of Jesus. But at least God still acknowledged the other provision he made in the old testament. You can also make contributions on the other issues raised here. I like learning.

dorox:
Those other provisions were just tokens, and as you read in the bible, sin could never be forgiven on the basis of animal blood. .

alexleo:

Sins were forgiven in the old testament when those animals were sacrificed as instructed by God. The bottom line is that God forgave them. I'm not comparing the blood of animal with the blood of Jesus.

alexleo:

Thanks for your explanations. They are really good.
In the light of your statement above it means you are saying that the fall of Lucifer didn't come as a suprise to God. Why then did he go ahead to create him knowing what his fall will bring to the world. Do you think its for a purpose? What purpose?

N/B. Pls feel free to say all that you want to say. People are reading. People are learning. You might also learn from others when they read your contribution and make their submissions. I'm enjoying you and SalC. I hope others will contribute. This issue is one that christians shy away from going deep into, yet a lot of them leave the faith because they dont understand it. God is your strength.

alexleo:

Yea yours is also similar to my line of thought on it. God is a creator. Like a porter(Romans 9). A creator conceives an idea of what he wants to create before creating. He doesnt just rush into creating without a concept or without articulating what he wants. like i stated earlier in my OP, I believe he created lucifer for the purpose of manifesting the other side of him. If not for such negative acts we wouldnt have known this other side of him. I mean, God couldnt have started unleashing his wrath in a peaceful heaven where everybody was obedient to him. . It is contrary/negative action that was needed for that side of him to manifest. God is in charge, there is nothing anyone can do about it. The best anyone can do is to line up with him and enjoy the loving side of him through his son Jesus Christ our Lord. For me, since he made a way of escape for us i have every reason to be grateful to him at all times. If he had not made a way of escape would i have saved myself from his wrath? No way. If lucifer who was in a higher realm with him could not save himself from His wrath, is it we mere mortals that could ve done that without his help? No. So to God be the glory.

Honestly i enjoyed your contributions here SalC. Thanks a lot and i ll still ask more where the need arises. Let me still wait for torchwave to reply. I enjoy him too. Other brethren pls contribute. We are all learning. God bless everyone.

torchwave: Hi Alexleo. You are very right when you said we learn from each other. I learn much from nairalanders and still value their input which broadens my knowledge.

@ topic. I wanted to address that question when I made that post but time did not permit further explanation.

It is logical to ask that. Why then did God create Lucifer if He knew Lucifer would sin? Why display His wrath concerning something He would have easily avoided? Similarly, we ask why God created Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Osama Bin Laden and other notable evil figures that have gone down into the pages of history. Surely God would have spared the world of the pain and incalculable loss their existence inflicted on the world by not creating them along with numerous others of the same evil tendency, known or unknown. Why on earth does God let evil people into the world?

This thread was created to discuss the nature of God, His love and His wrath. However, that is not all to the nature of God. Knowing His love and wrath, you must also understand His fairness. God is a just and fair God. He shows no partiality. Knowing His love will make you love Him and be confident of His Fatherly love that doesn't condemn towards you, knowing His wrath will make you aware of the reality of His judgment towards the disobedient, while knowing His fairness is the key to understanding His creation.

His fairness is the reason why He created good and evil, heaven and hell, good and bad, righteousness and sin, light and darkness, holy angels and fallen angels, good men and evil men. It is the ultimate reason why He created and placed the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the same garden of Eden. His fairness is the reason why He makes His rain fall on the just and the unjust as well as making His sun shine on the just and the unjust.

If He created one, He had to be fair to create the other. It is His nature. It wouldn't have been His nature to create one and leave the other non-existent. God would be unjust if He made only the righteous and holy to serve and obey Him being aware of His judgment while sparing the wicked and disobedient.

When you sit and think about the depth of God's fairness, you are filled with nothing but wonder. It is this same fairness that made Him permit the devil to tempt Adam and Eve. It is the same fairness that makes Him listen to and grant the devil his petition if it was made on legal grounds. It is His nature of fairness that makes Him create those who will make heaven and those who will go to hell. His fairness dictates He does for one what He does for another.

When God judges, His judgment is extremely fair and just and righteous. His wrath is fair and just. What He does for the righteous, He does for the sinner. If He punishes the sinner He will also punish the righteous when they sin - very fair. This is why the worst sinner can receive His forgiveness if he repents because God is fair.

He knew that Lucifer would sin, He knew Adam would sin, he knew the carnage and destruction of lives that would result if Hitler and Stalin were born, however, in His fairness He created them.

To know God's love, you must be aware of Him as a loving Father and a just Judge.

Just like SalC said, we can never know all until we cross over. We cannot fully know God until we go home to be with Him. However, the little knowledge of God I have is what I share. I stand to be corrected. I don't claim perfect knowledge. I am willing to hear opposing thoughts because that is how we learn.

SalC:

Cool!
Thought provoking threads like this, compel one to think, learn and make meaningful contributions no matter how little. Thanks for this thread

alexleo:

Thanks dear for this beautiful one again. God bless you. With this one can really understand/appreciate why Job said what he said in Job 2:10-

Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

I believe Job understood the just nature of God thus the above statement.