tuffgongjo: and u are christ like?

yes i am.

amor4ce: PAGAN 9JA and macof, I never made reference to any abrahamic concept in my original post which is basically about reincarnation that is vehemently denied by the abrahamic religions. It is because of your irrational bias that you keep accusing me of such. The story global flood is mentioned in Ifa and was not brought to us by the abrahamic missionaries. I hope you are aware that other non-abrahamic peoples also know of this flood.
FOLYKAZE, go and ask any competent babalawo about Eni-bi-eni. How do you think matriarchal societies came about? The link in my original post is of THE CREATION STORY as narrated by the Chairman, Ethics and Scriptures, International Council for Ifa Religion. Why don't you contact him instead and tell him that he doesn't know what he is doing. I also hope you are aware that apart from the 801 irunmoles there are higher irunmoles. I also never mentioned that Eniyan is the same "thing" as Iwa but that they are appellations of the same person. Even those who practice Lucumi and Santeria know this very well.

Shatapp!


You were the one that copied contents of some sites here. . . .I will have to querry and question your presentations.

Do I need t rely on what some people say before I can make conclusive judgement on nature of Ifa? I didnt even said there was no flood. I have helped you referring to the water Orisha meant when they got to earth. The itch is that I dont know if that is what you are referring to or there is some other flood. If you know there was a flood different from the body of water Orisha meant when they came form Ajule Orun, kindly cite the Odu Ifa and verse that mention this so called 'worldwide flood' of yours. And note this, I asked you to refer me to the Ifa verse and not what some awo claimed.

What is all this lies you keep cooking up? 'Eni-bi-eni' means someone like me. Olando Owoh mentioned it in one of his song where he said, 'ti a ba gbe gidi woju, enibieni la n ri, ti a ba fi ayegbe yerawo, a ri eyan bi eyan' meaning 'we see one like us (eni-bi-eni) when we look our face with a mirror, we see person like us (eyan bi eyan) when we look into the glass). How does Eni-bi-eni equates to woman or female in this account? Secondly, Obatala created human and everything will see around meanwhile in your own post, you said Eledumare created the females. Can you see the contradiction? Let me ask again, why would Eledumare create women and Obatala create men? Does that mean there is sexual exclusion in Yoruba creation story? Does this female special creation head by Eledumare extented to animals, insects, fishes and small organism? If not why only human? Where in essence did Ifa mention special creation of enibieni (females) by Eledumare?

On Irunmole, there is nothing like 801 Irunmole. If you dont know counting of number (Onka), then you will be better ignored. Yoruba spirituality recognise Irun-Imole. Irun, Irinwo, Igba-meji, Egberun-merin means 400. They are headed by Olorun making the total Imole 401. I dont know if we have 800 or more or lesser Imole. The basic fact is that Irunmole are 400, add Olorun making it 401. I think you will have to tell us where you get your own 801 Irunmoles.

What does appelation of Iwa got to do with Eniyan?

2prexios:

thats wonderful, childhood is part of our most treasured memory, I wish I can be a kid again, but its impossible. Where are you if I may help you? I can ring some friends to parcel the books to you, it should be around 500naira or so, then DHL or EMS Speedpost or Nipost.

@2prexios, I don't know if you can help me out. When I was a kid, I read a book about two villages. The two villages are battling ƒσя supremacy over each other. Then one village got to know of a tunnel that leads to a world of knowledge. They ended up sending some of their kinsmen there who later came back with great knowledge in different fields. Due to this level of supremacy, they succeeded in subduing the other village.
So many pages of the book (including †ђ℮ front and back pages) were already torn when I read it, and I don't know †ђ℮ title. I don't know if Уσυ have read a book like that. I have asked around αη∂ no one seem to have read such a book. Αll I want is †ђ℮ title. Please, kindly help out.

talk2dre:
@2prexios, I don't know if you can help me out. When I was a kid, I read a book about two villages. The two villages are battling ƒσя supremacy over each other. Then one village got to know of a tunnel that leads to a world of knowledge. They ended up sending some of their kinsmen there who later came back with great knowledge in different fields. Due to this level of supremacy, they succeeded in subduing the other village.
So many pages of the book (including †ђ℮ front and back pages) were already torn when I read it, and I don't know †ђ℮ title. I don't know if Уσυ have read a book like that. I have asked around αη∂ no one seem to have read such a book. Αll I want is †ђ℮ title. Please, kindly help out.

The name of that wonderful book is "Gift to troubled tribes" Very good literature for civic instructions.

FOLYKAZE, it is actually possible to present your argument effectively without resorting to vitriol. I did not copy the content of any site in my posts on this thread. I never denied that in the beginning of the first creation water covered the earth. If you don't know, the flood was used to end the first creation, and just like in the beginning of the first creation, the second creation started with water covering the surface of the earth. Orishas did not meet water on the earth at the beginning of the first creation when coming from heaven, rather the irunmoles did. I never mentioned that Olodumare created females while Obatala created males, never. What I did mention is that the first human created after the flood was a woman called Eni-bi-eni aka Ninibinini and Olodumare created her. I never mentioned that Eni-bi-eni refers to females. Finally, there are 200 irunmole to the left, 200 irunmole to the right, and 400 + 1 that shuttle between heaven and earth of which Obatala (aka Orishan'la) is the undisputed leader, not Olorun..

It seems you so much hate my guts that you let that hatred cloud your thinking and make you blind to your hypocrisy.

macof, he who knows not that he knows not is a .... Look inwards first before trying to condemn me. You have a 'history" on this forum.

amor4ce: FOLYKAZE, it is actually possible to present your argument effectively without resorting to vitriol. I did not copy the content of any site in my posts on this thread. I never denied that in the beginning of the first creation water covered the earth. If you don't know, the flood was used to end the first creation, and just like in the beginning of the first creation, the second creation started with water covering the surface of the earth. Orishas did not meet water on the earth at the beginning of the first creation when coming from heaven, rather the irunmoles did. I never mentioned that Olodumare created females while Obatala created males, never. What I did mention is that the first human created after the flood was a woman called Eni-bi-eni aka Ninibinini and Olodumare created her. I never mentioned that Eni-bi-eni refers to females. Finally, there are 200 irunmole to the left, 200 irunmole to the right, and 400 + 1 that shuttle between heaven and earth of which Obatala (aka Orishan'la) is the undisputed leader, not Olorun..

It seems you so much hate my guts that you let that hatred cloud your thinking and make you blind to your hypocrisy.

macof, he who knows not that he knows not is a .... Look inwards first before trying to condemn me. You have a 'history" on this forum.

Bros. . . . .we can move on disagreeing to agreement.

Cheers man!

2prexios: The name of that wonderful book is "Gift to troubled tribes" Very good literature for civic instructions.

Wow! I will check it out ...thanks! Уσυ seem to have read a lot back in †ђ℮ days!

amor4ce:
macof, he who knows not that he knows not is a .... Look inwards first before trying to condemn me. You have a 'history" on this forum.

And this means Wat history

talk2dre:
Wow! I will check it out ...thanks! Уσυ seem to have read a lot back in †ђ℮ days!

Don't mind me, I used to pour out my life on those literature like my life depend on it. As such, I have vivid fragment -recollection from the books I've read.

My response to Metaphysics’

1. What is birth, what is death
Birth is the transition we humans make when coming from our home (do all of us come from orun?) to this part of the physical plane of existence called earth.
Death is the transition in the opposite direction, when returning to our home from earth.

2. What does it mean to be reincarnated?
This depends on the location, I think. To those on physical earth, they reincarnation is the return of an individual via birth to this physical plane of existence while to those in heaven like one's egbe, it might be the return to the spiritual plane of existence. According to this verse from Oyeku’ṣe (from the book “Odun Ifa” by Dr Emmanuel Abosede), the promise of reincarnation eases the grief of death and is worth looking forward to.
Ka ma tete ku
A wo ele alayọ;
Aitete ku iṣe
Awoibanuje;
Biku ba de ka yin Oluwa logo
Awo olootọ
Awọn agbaagba meta lo difa iku wo lọdọ Ọrunmila wọn ni:
Ee se ti iku fi I pani?
Ọrunmila ni: Ire ni Amuniwaye fi iku ṣe
Omi ti ko ṣan siwa, ti ko ṣan sehin
A a di omi ọgọdọ
Ọgọdọ omi ibajẹ, Omi ẹgbin
Omi ngbe wọn lọ rere,
Omi ngbe wọn bọ, rere
Olokunrun ka a re’le lo gbawo tuntun bọ wa’ye
Translation:
“If we die after a long happy life we achieve glory; but if we live too long and die in poverty, neglect and disgrace we achieve nothing but sorrow. We should accept death when it comes and give thanks to God for life well lived.”
Pondering these sayings three sages consulted Ọrunmila and asked why man should suffer death at all.
Ọrunmila replied:
The creator has bestowed death to man as a blessing.
Life is a stream that flows out and flows back.
When it flows out men call it death,
When it flows back they call it Rebirth.
If the stream does not flow out and flow back
It becomes a cesspool stagnant with shameful impurities.
Without death there can be no Rebirth.
And Rebirth is the invalid that travels out only to return home with newfound health.
– Oyeku’ṣe

3. What is the nature of Irunmale/Irunmole?
I’m still trying to grasp it.
I have a copy of a paper “A Ya Gbo, A Ya To: New Perspectives on Edan Ogboni” by Babatunde Lawal in 1995 who noted therein (page 43() that some scholars have suggested that “irunmole” means “400 divinities” and that the translation of (i)mole or imale was still uncertain. He cited “Eni orun to wa mo ile aye” (heavenly beings on earth) as one etymology of “irunmole proposed by Aina Adewale-Abayomi, and “the knowledge of the secrets of this world” as a translation of mole/imale by Onadele Epega.

4. What is the nature of Orisha?
Those among our ancestors who lived distinguished lives and were elevated to the status of or recognized as orishas. Here is an interesting quote (although it appears unconventional) from a verse of Eji Ogbe in the book “Odun Ifa” which supports this view:
Ọrunmila says: It is human beings we deify as Orisha
I reply: True indeed it is my Lord, Agbọniregun,
Oriṣa are deified human beings.
Ọrunmila says: Oriṣa-Ala, you must know, was once a human being himself.
When he brought blessings to the world men began to worship him as god.
Even to this day men revere his memory and supplicate the Omnipotent in his name.
Ogun was once a human being.
Ṣango was once a human being.
And so those who attain wisdom on earth,
They are those indeed whom we worship as gods.
The Oriṣa are deified human beings

5. Can mankind come as Oriṣa or not?
I want to believe that mankind cannot come as Oriṣa but can live up to the standards set by the oriṣas.

6. Can mankind become Irunmole or not?
I want to believe that mankind cannot become Irunmoles, but I don’t know what would be the nature of those who would progress to the next stage of creation which is the 5th (for instance, whether they would still be referred to as ènìyàn).

7. Can Oriṣa become Irunmole or not?
I want to believe that Orishas can become Irunmole, based on my assumption that the Irunmoles are the ones who come as Oriṣas. In the excerpt from a verse of Iwori Wodi that I came across sometime ago is a line “There is no woman who cannot give birth to Orunmila himself” which implies that the Irunmole known as Orunmila can come to this world as a human, born of a woman. If this line is meant to be taken literally, it would further imply that he would be an oriṣa in that time.
There is no pregnant woman who cannot give birth to a babalawo
There is no woman who cannot give birth to Orunmila himself
If a father begets a child
However long it might take,
The child can also give birth to the father
If a mother gives birth to a child,
She can still be reborn by that same child
This was Ifa’s teaching to Orunmila who said,
I shall bring heaven to earth
And earth to heaven
This would explain why Obalufon and Moremi had a son known as Ela who was able to ascend into heaven instead of transiting as is known of various Orishas.

Now to the question of who is mankind. Since Oduduwa is Ènìyàn, his offspring who are humans are ọmọ ènìyàn, and more humans were created based on the model of the ọmọ ènìyàn who were created based on the model of Ninibinini, all humans are supposed to be ọmọ ènìyàn, but we know that some Eníyán survived the flood and live with us till this day and they are likely the ones mentioned in Greek history (e.g. Zeus) as abducting some oyinbo women who bore offspring for them. We should note that the Macedonians believed that their rulers (e.g. Alexander the great) were incarnates of their gods just as the ọmọ Oodua believe that their rulers/Oriṣas are their gods. It is not for nothing that the oyinbo colonizing rulers after Alexander like the Seleucids, Greeks, Romans, etc., bore titles like “Soter” (savior e.g. Attalus I Soter, Ptolemy I Soter, Ptolemy IX Soter II), Epiphanes (god manifest e.g. Ptolemy V Epiphanes, Antiochos IV Epiphanes), Theos (god e.g. Antiochus II Theos, Ptolemy XIII Theos Philopator, Ptolemy XIV Theos Philopator II). Such oyinbo believe strongly in it till date as seen in the preservation of certain royal bloodlines. Therefore, I want to believe that mankind today consists of two groups:

I. Ọmọ Enìyàn which consists of the oriṣas (human incarnates of Irunmales) and other humans
II. Ọmọ Eníyán which consists of human incarnates of angels (their gods) and their own people among humans

beautiful piece @amo4ce.
May you grow from strength to strength,
Both in knowledge and understanding o, Ase.

Ashe.

But do you have any disagreement with any part of it?

amor4ce: Ashe.

But do you have any disagreement with any part of it?

No broda, I'm not better than you on this and should we disagree, we wont learn anything. It would be rants all over. I'm talking from experience.
But for peer review, I can't conceal what will be useful to all of us that I think I know, that oblige me to share.

The Ifa quote
Brother, I am happy that you have step up in this respect and ready to speak in the words of the ancestors themselves more than you will speak from your own concepts, its good that way, so we do not bend issues to our diverse opinions and lose focus.

However, the Ifa verse you quoted was succinct, but my reservation is that this verse is not "Oju Odu" but "Omo Odu" or "Amulu Odu". This happens when one Ifa verse combines with another Ifa verse and a new offspring verse emerge.

Oju Odu are the main entry in Ifa, numbering sixteen. And these are called omo Oloja merindinlogun. But when two odu combines and form covalent bonding, you have amulu-odu. To me, such is somewhat distance from Oju Odu, it is like feedback *(ayinipada) to the main Odu designated as "Oju Odu".

Oyeku-se is an instance of amulu Odu, which is created when Oyeku bonds with Ose. Oyeku is about salvage or salvation, or saving someone from death, while Ose is from the inception. Now as omo Odu, it is second level Ifa verse, you must look for the primal verse. Oju Odu.

Then this can be reviewed as the closest to what the ancestors may have uphold in their time as to life and death. Now do you see that for classification, what has to do with death was classified under a fitting title? I think that is awesome.

For all that has shared, its a good attempt from us all anyway.

Good evening.

irunmoles agbe wa ooo

akigbemaru: irunmoles agbe wa ooo

Ase...

kose kose ni tilakose.

Amo sa, Ori eni l'aba bo,

aba f'orisha sile l'eyo,

nitori lojo ti 'ku npani,

Nibo l'orisha nwo o?

Ani,

Ori lonishe, eda l'ayanmo.

Ori iwanran Olokun abara lile bi ota.

Ori mi apepe ori mi apesin,

Ire owo ni ki o muto miwa.

Ire omo ni ko ya lodede mi

Ire aiku baale oro jininjini.

Eyi ni mo toro lowo Eledua.

Orisha oke to ro tutu f'Olofin

Eledua Oba ajiki oba ajiki

Oba Ateni legelege f'ori s'apeji-omi.

Ire lojun ojo ri.

Ire ni temi,
Ori mi, ori Ade,
Orun mi ejigba ileke.
Eti mi igbo gbedu niga,
Nibi nmo ibOba gbite ayeye.

Beni emi naa ni ara Iseri ni mi
Awokunle, Omo Ola.
Omo abile soro
kile lanu.

2prexios:
The name of that wonderful book is "Gift to troubled tribes" Very good literature for civic instructions.

Hi ...longest time. Hope you are doing great?
I got the the book, "Gift to Troubled Tribes", but it wasn't the book I wanted according to the 'contents' I stated back then.
Please, kindly go over the 'content' I outlined back then. I may as well quote the part where I mentioned it.

cc: 2prexios

talk2dre:


@2prexios, I don't know if you can help me out. When I was a kid, I read a book about two villages. The two villages are battling ƒσя supremacy over each other. Then one village got to know of a tunnel that leads to a world of knowledge. They ended up sending some of their kinsmen there who later came back with great knowledge in different fields. Due to this level of supremacy, they succeeded in subduing the other village.
So many pages of the book (including †ђ℮ front and back pages) were already torn when I read it, and I don't know †ђ℮ title. I don't know if Уσυ have read a book like that. I have asked around αη∂ no one seem to have read such a book. Αll I want is †ђ℮ title. Please, kindly help out.