Joel3:
Looking at the universe its an empty space. unlimited space that is so big with no ending.

* The Universe is not an empty space.
* The Universe can't be said to have an unlimited space.
* Given that the Universe is 'believed' to be expanding, it won't be out of place for it to have a 'demonstrable' width. In order words, the universe is limited.

Joel3:
Its very clear that universe will have to be the oldest thing that created every other things.

Not as clear as you make it seem. The question can be asked: who or what created the Universe?

Joel3:
while still looking at it There are trillions of bigger planets, the stars that's even bigger than the earth they are still on this universe. and its very likely to be possible that there might even be another solar system where people live that is far away. Which is beyond the powers of travel ship to embank on.

Now the space is without limit. Empty and Darkness which housing planet.

That does not sound like the universe but Space.

Joel3:
God cannot create the space.

Why do you think so? I am very sure your premise did not lead you to the above conclusion because it does not follow.

Joel3:
The space must have created God and the planet over time.

How? Who or what is this God you speak of?

Joel3:
Now what do you guys think.

Told you what I think

Joel3:
For intelligent mind only.

Oops! I have already posted.

op I'm no pro, at best I'm a dilletante (even if that ) with these topics but I can tell you that you make a couple of assumptions that are not exactly "fact"

for instance, one of the most hotly debated issues in matters like these is if infinities actually exist in any form whatsoever except for mathematically.

this might seem like a trivial problem, but if you insist space existed forever, then when did the first occurrence of anything whatsoever at all take place. think about the implications of that carefully. every process possible would already have taken place an infinite amount of times, and will again take place an infinite amount of times

similarly if space is infinite, and there only exists a finite amount of ways nature can combine, that would mean that currently there are infinite versions of you right now reading this very post. interesting, no? it would also mean, ie if you combine it with your notion that time is eternal, that an infinite amount of yous have already read this post at some other time and place. in other words, every single thing possible has already place an infinite amount of times.

but let's say all this is as it is, so what? the fact that is incredulous does not mean it is impossible, clearly. thats not how science works, at all. so long as the evidence points in that direction than that is what is happening regardless of opinion. okay then, but qwhat of even simpler notions. for instance, if you claim space is infinite, yet as we all know, it is also expanding, exactly how do you add something to infinity......

let's not even think about what quantum weirdness has to say about all this.

most valid scientific models being explored do not assume spacetime is infinite, for even more reasons than what I post above. for instance, one of the biggest, fastest elephants in the room; entropy. and even cyclical models don't solve these issues. the problems don't go away, there's still the question of when did the first cycle take place?

and of course GOD!!! answers absolutely, completely, comprehensibly, nothing. its an uncouth way of saying ' I don't know, but let us assume the universe was created just for me, therefore; Santa exists!)

tl;Dr; putting it lightly, it complicated. nobody knows, and given certain obvious factors I'll ignore for now; very likely nobody may never know. we can only concern ourselves with things we can determine; our universe. which does have limits

striktlymi:

* The Universe is not an empty space.
* The Universe can't be said to have an unlimited space.
* Given that the Universe is 'believed' to be expanding, it won't be out of place for it to have a 'demonstrable' width. In order words,

Maybe there are better word to use for the space which I mean. I know according to science the space is expanding. Yes The space might not be empty as it might contain some element of gas which make it to expand. But the other part of the space is pushing out to is called what?

Maybe there are some word that shouldn't be used but that's my bad. And definitely I know what I am saying.

Not as clear as you make it seem. The question can be asked: who or what created the Universe?



That does not sound like the universe but Space.



Why do you think so? I am very sure your premise did not lead you to the above conclusion because it does not follow.



How? Who or what is this God you speak of?




Told you what I think



Oops! I have already posted.

I do hope you understand what I am trying to say.

plaetton:

Yes sir, I do.
Since we are conscious products of the universe, it would make sense that the same dynamic physics would have also, long before us, made the universe conscious.
But, I reiterate that the universe, just like life, evolved and is still evolving.
Also, that consciousness did not create the universe, but is a by-product of energy interactions within the universe.
Thus,this evolved field of consciousness now put the universe in a course and directs the evolution of all things within universe, notably biological life as we know it.

Good. This is what someone like Greatgenius has been saying all along.

May add that a book I read a while ago - My Big Toe - has something very interesting to say about the evolution of consciousness. He said that the system is trying to reduce entropy. Order out of chaos.

BuddhaPalm:

Good. This is what someone like Greatgenius has been saying all along.

May add that a book I read a while ago - My Big Toe - has something very interesting to say about the evolution of consciousness. He said that the system is trying to reduce entropy. Order out of chaos.

Yes,
I think the universe has been trying to revert back to it's original state of equilibrium, a state of zero kinetic energy where energy exists only in potential. In other words , the universe is trying to annul itself.
This desperate attempt to annul itself is what drives energy in motion. And when energy condenses, it forms particles of matter. When particles of matter collide, they form chains of other particles of matter, and at the same time form a quanta of consciousness. When sufficient quantum of consciousness aggregate, it becomes a field that now initiate and propagate its own chain of events or processes.

I believe that biological life was initiated and spawned by a field of consciousness perhaps in another galaxy millions or billions of years before the same process was repeated in our planet Earth.

You are the "Creator" and the "created"...
God "created" the universe and the Universe "created" God
The universe "created" God and God "created" the universe..

understand this divine dichotomy and you would have answered your question..

You are the universe. The universe is a projection of your MIND.. A projection of consciousness..

greatgenius:

understand this divine dichotomy and you would have answered your question..

You are the universe. The universe is a projection of your MIND.. A projection of consciousness..

Exactly. That's why it's dangerous to retain images of a Caucasian male in one's head as god. We may be responsible for the plight of Africans without even being aware of it. I really believe that the two things are connected.

Weah96:

Exactly. That's why it's dangerous to retain images of a Caucasian male in one's head as god.

it is not dangerous to the one doing it if it brings them comfort however ignorant the person might be..There is no god outside of anyone.. We are all GOD..however you can choose to make anyone/being or anything your god or you can choose not to..Anyone is free to create their reality they so chooses, consciously or unconsciously..

The lower your level of awareness/intelligence/consciousness/evolution, the greater your need for a God(and there is nothing wrong with that..).. Beings who belief in a God outside of themselves will outgrow it just like kids outgrow their belief in Santa as they evolve into a higher level of awareness...

We may be responsible for the plight of Africans without even being aware of it. I really believe that the two things are connected.

Africans are the way they are because of their beliefs.. in fact every individual or group/nation/continent is the way they are because of their beliefs or collective beliefs(in the case of a group/nation/continent...) You are what you create. you create what you are..

No one is responsible for you but yourself...NO one is responsible for the plight of Africans but Africans themselves.. Africans are powerless because they have given up being RESPONSIBLE FOR THEMSELVES... They have given up their responsibilities to "powerful" nations, to an imaginary "god" and "devil' etc..

When You stop being responsible you give up your power; when you give up your power, you give up your ability to choose: when you give up your choices, you give up your freedom.. When you stop being responsible and give up your freedom, you are asking another to think and take action on your behalf however detrimental it might be for you.... Not a good way to live...

plaetton:

Consciousness, scientifically speaking, is field of quantized bits of interaction. Interactions of energy. In other words, when energy interacts, a quanta of consciousness is created. When these quanta or quantum aggregate to a certain mathematical threshold, a field of consciousness is generated that basically assumes a course of its own.
Understanding this can enable us understand all natural and supernatural phenomena in the universe.

plaetton:

Yes sir, I do.
Since we are conscious products of the universe, it would make sense that the same dynamic physics would have also, long before us, made the universe conscious.
But, I reiterate that the universe, just like life, evolved and is still evolving.
Also, that consciousness did not create the universe, but is a by-product of energy interactions within the universe.
Thus,this evolved field of consciousness now put the universe in a course and directs the evolution of all things within universe, notably biological life as we know it.

Good.. now do you agree that everything has consciousness..

i don't remember if it was you or Anony i was having a discussion with( a while back)where i stated that everything has consciousness and you/he disagreed? Perhaps it was Wiegraf... if it is not you i will still like to hear your view on it based on your post above..

Joel3:

Maybe there are better word to use for the space which I mean. I know according to science the space is expanding. Yes The space might not be empty as it might contain some element of gas which make it to expand. But the other part of the space is pushing out to is called what?

Maybe there are some word that shouldn't be used but that's my bad. And definitely I know what I am saying.




I do hope you understand what I am trying to say.

What's your idea of God?

greatgenius:

Good.. now do you agree that everything has consciousness..

i don't remember if it was you or Anony i was having a discussion with( a while back)where i stated that everything has consciousness and you/he disagreed? Perhaps it was Wiegraf... if it is not you i will still like to hear your view on it based on your post above..

Yes, to an extent , anything that has an electron has a limited quanta of consciousness within it.
To me , this would explain how organic molecules aggregated and formed complex self-replicating RNAs as the biochemical precursors of DNA billions of years ago.

Now, the thread is getting more interesting...

Op, no come spoil this discussion o.

plaetton:

Yes, to an extent , anything that has an electron has a limited quanta of consciousness within it.
To me , this would explain how organic molecules aggregated and formed complex self-replicating RNAs as the biochemical precursors of DNA billions of years ago.

ok so lets go with this... if every electron has a quanta of consciousness within it why then agree to an extent? care to expatiate?

greatgenius: ok so lets go with this... if every electron has a quanta of consciousness within it why then agree to an extent? care to expatiate?

What I mean is that everything, anything that has subatomic particles colliding in motion carries miniscule amounts of consciousness within it, a quanta, the smallest bit of interactive information.
The more interactive information, the greater the degree of consciousness. The human brain , for example, has the greatest amount of interactive information at any given time, therefore our level of consciousness is by far greatest in this planet.

plaetton:

What I mean is that everything, anything that has subatomic particles colliding in motion carries miniscule amounts of consciousness within it, a quanta, the smallest bit of interactive information.

i know and understand what you're saying wholly... The point i am trying to make is that you cant agree that every subatomic particle has an amount of consciousness within it and then state you believe everything has consciousness to an extent...it means you don't believe wholeheartedly that everything has consciousness...

it is just like saying that there is an exception to a rule(well it is not really a rule if there is an exception is it?).... my question is to what extent do you not agree that everything has consciousness..

The more interactive information, the greater the degree of consciousness. The human brain , for example, has the greatest amount of interactive information at any given time, therefore our level of consciousness is by far greatest in this planet.

true @bold.. another way of saying the more information/knowledge, the greater the degree of consciousness or awareness..

but i think i have caught on to something and know where your problem lies.. don't think for a second that your brain is the only organ where consciousness exists/originates.. every cell in your body has consciousness/mind.. every cell in your body has a mind of its own.. Most people seem to think their thoughts originate only from their brain because the brain as you rightly said has the greater amount of interactive information at any given time(there are more cells in the brain than any part of your body) and thus appears to be where thoughts originate from..

greatgenius: i know and understand what you're saying wholly... The point i am trying to make is that you cant agree that every subatomic particle has an amount of consciousness within it and then state you believe everything has consciousness to an extent...it means you don't believe wholeheartedly that everything has consciousness...

it is just like saying that there is an exception to a rule(well it is not really a rule if there is an exception is it?).... my question is to what extent do you not agree that everything has consciousness..

true @bold.. another way of saying the more information/knowledge, the greater the degree of consciousness or awareness..

but i think i have caught on to something and know where your problem lies.. don't think for a second that your brain is the only organ where consciousness exists/originates.. every cell in your body has consciousness/mind.. every cell in your body has a mind of its own.. Most people seem to think their thoughts originate only from their brain because, the brain as you rightly said has the greater amount of interactive information at any given time(there are more cells in the brain than any part of your body) and thus appears to be where thoughts originate from..

I used the words " to some extent" to convey the fact that it may be negligibly small to be in consequential in on itself.

And yes, every cell carries a consciousness within it, but remember what I said before that it is when these bits of consciousness aggregate to a very high degree, such as in the neurons and the brain, that it reaches a certain threshold of frequency that real consciousness, as in awareness, arises.
With this in mind, I reiterate that we shall have a conscious computer in the near or distant future when computer power reaches that unique mathematical threshold.

plaetton:

I used the words " to some extent" to convey the fact that it may be negligibly small to be in consequential in on itself.

And yes, every cell carries a consciousness within it, but remember what I said before that it is when these bits of consciousness aggregate to a very high degree, such as in the neurons and the brain, that it reaches a certain threshold of frequency that real consciousness, as in awareness, arises.
With this in mind, I reiterate that we shall have a conscious computer in the near or distant future when computer power reaches that unique mathematical threshold.

at bold, now we are sailing into "dangerous" waters..wanted to keep this simple but oh well..

This might sound insane to you due to your point of view at this point..but @ bold, "real" consciousness according to whose point of view? a human "being" or a rock "being"... what makes you think your level of consciousness is any more real than that of a bacteria or a table...

Also if you would what does a "being" mean to you...

greatgenius: at bold, now we are sailing into "dangerous" waters..wanted to keep this simple but oh well..

This might sound insane to you due to your point of view at this point..but @ bold, "real" consciousness according to whose point of view? a human "being" or a rock "being"... what makes you think your level of consciousness is any more real than that of a bacteria or a table...

Also if you would what does a "being" mean to you...

We are human, so can only use our consciousness as a yardstick when I use the term real consciousness. Consciousness hat is conscious of itself. Consciousness that recognizes and mirrors itself.

There is no God,so the question is simply useless.

^^^

A being, in the simplest terms , would be a self-conscious entity.

Existence is constant regardless of which ever form it takes. Life is an experience within Existance.

plaetton:

We are human, so can only use our consciousness as a yardstick when I use the term real consciousness. Consciousness hat is conscious of itself. Consciousness that recognizes and mirrors itself.

consciousness is consciousness my friend.. yes there are different levels/degrees of consciousness just as there are different frequencies or degrees of light.. but one is not anymore real than the other...

yes you are "being" human.. a conglomeration of energy particles being a human.... a human being but you are at your core made up of particles of energy first, just like everything else in the universe.. .. you are sachet/particles of energy come together vibrating at a different frequency than say a table or a dog, that's it my brother.. your level of consciousness is not any more "real" than say a dog...

greatgenius: consciousness is consciousness my friend.. yes there are different levels/degrees of consciousness just as there are different frequencies or degrees of light.. but one is not anymore real than the other...

yes you are "being" human.. a conglomeration of energy particles being a human.... a human being but you are at your core made up of particles of energy first, just like everything else in the universe.. .. you are sachet/particles of energy come together vibrating at a different frequency than say a table or a dog, thats it my brother..

No disagreement here.
I could not have said it better.

^^^ glad i have brought awareness and RE-MINDED you to what you already know my friend ^^...

Joel3: this topic is not for critics or for religious bigot. on this topic we will be looking at the universe. I am not talking of the solar system. But the universe and the things found in the universe.


Looking at the universe its an empty space. unlimited space that is so big with no ending. Its very clear that universe will have to be the oldest thing that created every other things.

while still looking at it There are trillions of bigger planets, the stars that's even bigger than the earth they are still on this universe. and its very likely to be possible that there might even be another solar system where people live that is far away. Which is beyond the powers of travel ship to embank on.

Now the space is without limit. Empty and Darkness which housing planet. God cannot create the space. The space must have created God and the planet over time.

Now what do you guys think.

For intelligent mind only.

I guess God could not have created space. To do otherwise, he would have had to find the space to stand or sit and create space. Forget that he is alleged to be incorporeal; a spirit still needs a medium in which to be a spirit.

So he either came together with space, or after it. If he came after it, I don't suppose he is the most important thing in the universe afterall. It also means that he is subject to the physical laws. This does not bode well for some species of God that we have discovered. (What or who do you mean by God, anyway?) But I still can't say that space created him, since that confers agency on space, and explaining how space acquired agency is above my pay grade. The alternative would be that he came about by chance, and somehow became tremendously powerful. But if that were possible, why should it happen only once? I don't know. I don't see why it should.

If he came with space, then either could be said to be a property of the other ( saying God is a property of space sounds a bit off key, admittedly, but we are lacking a clear defintion of God) or neither is a property of the other and they fortuitously (especially for God) just came about at the same time. Either way, since they have both come about at the same time, the question would then become; where did they come from?

Of course, all of this is based on the assumption that the universe is not eternal, and that 'God', whatever that is, exists.

My wild guess.