Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? - Islam for Muslims (2) - Nairaland
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| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by AlBaqir(m): 6:00pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
maclatunji: ShehuAba: Yes the controversy continues. “I write to inform you that we (the National Moon-sighting Committee) and the Sultanate Moon Sighting Committee went to the Sighting of Moon today (Sunday, July 27, 2014). “The moon was not sighted with naked eye or with telescope and binocular. However, we used some programmes and software applications like Skymap, Stellarium and Virtual Moon to get the details of the moon. “The details of the Moon are: Age: 19H (hour) 05M (minutes); Hour Angle/DE:04H 45M 11S(seconds)/+12 21’11′; Distance between sun and moon: 3.5′.” http://dailypost.ng/2014/07/29/ramadan-investigation-shows-new-moon-wasnt-sighted-sultan-declared/ No be only Premium news waka come o. |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by AlBaqir(m): 6:08pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
maclatunji: That's exactly where the problem is mr maclatunji. You simply don't understand the meaning of that hadith you continously being quoted. I hope you will read the link I asked you to read earlier for the explanation of the hadith (vis-a-vis Sunnah of sighting moon). www.fiqhcouncil.org/node/21 |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by maclatunji: 6:21pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
AlBaqir: Daily Post copied Premium Times to get traffic, nothing new there. |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by AlBaqir(m): 6:26pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
tbaba1234: Very correct tbaba1234 infact going through the hadith (sunnah), the word used for "sighting" there is also used in various ayah in the holy Quran and other similar hadith. The "sighting" is to announce and confirm the new month and nothing else. Hence, the conclusion of the hadith which reported the holy prophet (saws) to have said "if the moon cannot be sighted because of cloud, then count the 30th day..." The point is had it been the "sighting" is more than just announcement and confirmation and verification of a new month, he (saws) might have stressed the importance even on the 30th day (which now is another method of certainty). No doubt if other method of verifications are available then to confirm the birth of a new month/moon, he (saws) will definitely practice it rather than those "two methods (sighting or counting when sighting is difficult)". There are however contradicting hadith on the sunnah of the prophet (saws) while citing moon. Some says he (saws) would turn away from the moon and pray once the new crescent is cited. Other says he will pray while looking at the crescent. What is sure is that the "sighting" is not an act of Ibaadat. Salam |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by AlBaqir(m): 6:31pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
maclatunji: This is where their reports differs: “I write to inform you that we (the National Moon-sighting Committee) and the Sultanate Moon Sighting Committee went to the Sighting of Moon today (Sunday, July 27, 2014)" . Premium don't define the "today". And I don't think Sultanate Moon Sighting Committee will carry out or go ahead with such further investigation without the approval of the Sultan. |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by maclatunji: 6:31pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
tbaba1234: What is the authoritative evidence for visual sighting? Quote them by yourself so that we can compare them to our two positions. Which is inline with the sunnah and otherwise. You guys obviously do not know how the Sultan gets his information to announce sightings. I know he has a parallel process. Let me just give one instance: |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by sino(m): 6:32pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
ShehuAba: It seems tbaba1234 and sino are getting me all wrong.Brother, i understand your point, and that is why i am still hoping there would be an official statement by the Sultan... Why i am concerned is that, the evidences presented are overwhelming to overlook, i personally would not be comfortable with all these reports, how could one be comfortable with glaring evidences of impossibility of seeing the crescent with naked eyes on Saturday? If you read the report of the investigation, it states that: "The result of the investigation, also endorsed by the Sultan’s representatives, was unambiguous: The claim that the moon was sighted on Saturday was questionable as it was impossible for anyone to see the moon anywhere in the world at that time." It was also stated that the Sultan was the one who commissioned the investigation; "The Sultan, who is also the President of the Nigerian Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs [NSCIA], commissioned the joint moonsighting investigation after his Saturday call triggered controversy, with some of the nation’s foremost clerics as well as the Secretary General of the NSCIA, Is-haq Oloyede, openly questioning his judgment." Premium times is just a medium for the public to have access to the report of the investigation, do you think it is wise for you after reading this report yourself, still wait on the Sultan? What are you really waiting for? That the report should be rejected? There is no excuse of ignorance here, you have read it yourself, and on the day of Judgment, na everyman for himself o. |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by AbdH: 6:47pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
My fasting ended on the 29th day of Ramadhan because of the announcement that the moon had been sighted. But for the fact that we are required to start or end fasting when the moon is sighted, I would have concluded it on 30. If truly a statement came from the sultanate that it was an error, then it would mean that the error was from those people who claimed that they had seen it. The sultan followed the sunnah by believing them in the first place and by declaring that Ramadhan had finished, he proved that they were trustworthy enough to be believed. But if they had lied, the sin is on them and not on the one who fasted or stopped fasting on their account, they were just following the sunnah. 1 Like |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by AlBaqir(m): 6:48pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
sino: You are right brother. Man only needs a heart that will submit and humble itself for the truth otherwise the heart will continue seeking excuses. Naturally nobody like being blamed or accused. Saudi Arabia and many muslims countries have made several mistakes in the past on this same issue and day of Arafat/Eid Adha. Yet they apologize and improve on that for a better future. |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by maclatunji: 6:49pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
tbaba1234: End Of Ramadan: Emir Of Kano, Sanusi Announces New Moon Sighting Despite Controversy! The new Emir, HRH Sanusi Lamido Sanusi II has announced the sighting of the new moon, signifying a new lunar calendar month and the end of the Ramadan Holy month. From a tweet from Kwankwaso2015: “The new moon of Shawwal has been sighted. His Royal Highness, Alh Muhammad Sanusi II declared tomorrow as 1st Shawwal.” http://www.osundefender.org/?p=179280 Here is the Emir of Kano declaring Sunday as Eid within his domain and trust me, he did not wait for the National Moonsighting Committee before making the announcement but used visual sightings and attestation as sunnah and custom demands in Kano. This is the sunnah. The Sultan will not receive these and other reports and wait on the National Moonsighting Committee and computers o. What the Premium Times report simply states is that the Sultan's own team and that of the National Moonsighting Commitee did not sight the new moon by themselves. It does not say the moon was not sighted anywhere else in Nigeria. I ask again what is the sunnah on this matter? Answer properly and you will make headway. |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by AlBaqir(m): 6:52pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
AbdH: My fasting ended on the 29th day of Ramadhan because of the announcement that the moon had been sighted. But for the fact that we are required to start or end fasting when the moon is sighted, I would have concluded it on 30. REPORTED SIGHTINGS OF THE MOON AND ASTRONOMICAL MODELS One might be tempted to say that if the moon sighting is reported by trustworthy and adil (just) witnesses even though the astronomical models show it to be impossible, that should call into question the validity of those models rather than result in the discounting of the witnesses’ testimony. To understand why that is not necessarily the case, it is important to understand that it is entirely possible and even common for people to think they have seen the moon when in reality they have not. Clouds, dust, pollution, and other natural factors can sometimes be confused for the young crescent. And of course, today there are many manmade objects in the sky as well that can confuse even an experienced observer, including aircraft and satellites of various types. This type of confusion even existed in the era of the Imams of the ahl al-bayt (as), as evidenced by this hadith from Imam Jafar Sadiq (as), in which he was asked how many witnesses are sufficient in sighting the crescent. The Imam replied: "Verily, the month of Ramadan is one of the Divine obligations, so don’t base it on conjecture. And sighting the crescent is not for a group to go out, and then one says, “I have seen it,” while the others say “We didn’t see it.” If one sees it, a hundred see it, and if a hundred see it, a thousand see it. And in sighting the moon, the testimony of less than fifty is not sufficient if there is no obstacle in the sky; and if there is an obstacle, the testimony of two men who enter and leave a city is acceptable." |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by maclatunji: 6:59pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
AbdH: My fasting ended on the 29th day of Ramadhan because of the announcement that the moon had been sighted. But for the fact that we are required to start or end fasting when the moon is sighted, I would have concluded it on 30. This man knows sunnah but please note my point above. Premium Times is desperately putting words in the Sultan's proverbial mouth with innuendoes. This moonsighting is simple if you follow the sunnah. I am on mobile, otherwise I would have broken the Premium Times report down for easy understanding. Is it possible for any committee to see what anybody else saw on Saturday night? No. They can only review what they saw. In fact, they have questioned other reports of sightings which is all they can do. QUESTION NOT DISPROVE. The sunnah ignores questioning a Muslim particularly when there are numerous reports as they were on Saturday night. 1 Like |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by maclatunji: 6:59pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
AbdH: My fasting ended on the 29th day of Ramadhan because of the announcement that the moon had been sighted. But for the fact that we are required to start or end fasting when the moon is sighted, I would have concluded it on 30. |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by AlBaqir(m): 7:01pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
maclatunji: Nah! No Emir (esp in the north) will EVER do anything contrary to that of their Leader the Sultan of Sokoto. Therefore Sanusi was ordered by Sultan. In Ilorin, the Emir announced on friday there was no fasting on the following day, Saturday. He did this after he has been informed. Later in the evening (same day, friday) when the Sultan announce Fasting to commence on Saturday, the Emir of Ilorin for reason I do not know (but I guess he doesn't wanna lose 'face') did not announce Sultan's late order. Majority in ilorin started their fasting on Sunday. Bottom line, Emirs get order from Sultan. |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by AbdH: 7:16pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by AbdH: 7:16pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
@AlBaqir, the witness of one person was sufficient during the prophet's (SAW) time, why should less than fifty witnesses be insufficient now? I'm confused. |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by maclatunji: 7:47pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
AbdH: @AlBaqir, Sunnah again, Al Baqir what is the sunnah? |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by infofirst(m): 8:12pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
A brother wrote this 24hours ago on His Fb page... With the size and clarity of the moon I saw today in my house in Dutsin-ma, Katsina state, even without my glasses nobody can call it that of second day. Therefore if truly any equipment indicated the moon can not be sighted anywhere on Saturday 26th as stated in the press briefing of the NSCIA secretary general, it is important to work on the accuracy of the equipment or we just forget about the equipment and continue with our "more accurate" traditional method. With my little knowledge of moon development in few books have read, what came out yesterday is of the 3rd day. Walahu alam So what did the moon you sight look like tonight in your area? |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by AlBaqir(m): 8:47pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
AbdH: @AlBaqir, Majority can claim to view crescent but that doesn't make it correct or wrong 100%. Sighting crescent especially at its birth is a difficult task. If even experts might confused Clouds, dust, pollution, and other natural factors sometimes for the young crescent, what is the certainty of non-experts common men? The hadith usually quote was reported by Abu Huraira who claimed "a bedoiun Arab", unknown, came to the holy prophet (saws) and claimed he has sighted the moon. The holy prophet (saws) was claimed to have asked the "unknown man" : "Do you profess La illaha illa Allah and Muhammad Rasulullah"? And on affirmative, he (saws) asked people to announce. Deductions The fact that books of hadith was not compiled, approved or verified by the prophet or his companions make them subject of scrutiny. Hundreds of years have elapsed before the compilation of books of hadith. Those who compiled it were NEVER masoom. 1. Quran ordered the believers to verify news brought by Fasiq (Hujurat vs 6) despite the fact that a Fasiq profess shahadatain. Why would the holy prophet (saws) not verify the information brought by an unknown bedoiun Arab of whom the Quran warned the prophet (saws) of the hypocrisy of most of this bedioun Arabs? Quran order testification of an adil (just) for witness cases not an unknown man. It is only reasonable to conclude that the"unknown" arab was reliable Jubril who sometimes visit the prophet in human form of which many atimes prophet will ask him questions or he might ask questions from the prophet (saws). Or we can conclude the holy prophet will be informed divinely by the all-knowing if lied to. 2. How many times of years of fasting had an "unknown man" came to inform him of sighting the moon? Note that the reporter of this hadith, Abu Hurairah converted to Islam in the late 7th year of hijra after the battle of khaybar, 2years before the demise of the prophet. He never spent much time in medina before he ran back to sham (syria). Even if this hadith is true, we can safely conclude that desert Arabs were specialized in sighting moon since that's only means of counting months and years then. 3. Just as the holy prophet (saws) had committee among the "trusted companions" that write and document Quran, it is safe to conclude he had group of trusted companions that used to sight the moon for the commencement of fasting or end vis-a-vis Eid day. The month of Ramadan is too important and spiritual to just accept info of an unknown man rather than having a trusted committee. On these deductions (and more reasons), I do not take the reported hadith just at a face value. Allah knows best. |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by sino(m): 8:47pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
infofirst: A brother wrote this 24hours ago on His Fb page...Anyone can claim anything, this does not prove anything. I saw the crescent today here in Lagos, and with what i saw, it cannot be that of Saturday lai lai, even, people around were commenting that Saturday sighting was wrong. But it is quite funny o, pipo carry teloscopu, bynancularsi and dia koro koro eyes, dem no see anything, all around the worldu, na for naija we take see am with koro koro eyes, d day wey the moon born, upon all the informate say when moon born, you no fit see am with ya koro koro eyes... It is questionable, questionable means it is not certain and indeed doubtful, that alone requires further investigation, reports came back again, ascertaining the impossibility of seeing the crescent on the said day, but what do we do? We wait for the Sultan... |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by vedaxcool(m): 8:47pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
maclatunji: Quite myopic sir, I don't see how exclusives on premium time resolve the issue except subject the ummah to ridicule! I agree following the sunnah would have avoided this whole brouhaha. |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by AlBaqir(m): 8:53pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
infofirst: A brother wrote this 24hours ago on His Fb page... You don't determine the age of the moon by its size. This is because if a moon is born, its definitely out of sight for several hours (due to cloud or other climatic conditions) and in those hours, it keeps on developing and according to the sunnah, you only begin your count when it is sighted or count 30days and then begin a new month. It is Allah's wish to hide the new crescent under the cloud. |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by AlBaqir(m): 9:14pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
maclatunji: Why don't you let the sultanate committee deny this quote or bring a counter-quote to this: “I write to inform you that we (the National Moon-sighting Committee) and the Sultanate Moon Sighting Committee went to the Sighting of Moon today (Sunday, July 27, 2014). “The moon was not sighted with naked eye or with telescope and binocular. However, we used some programmes and software applications like Skymap, Stellarium and Virtual Moon to get the details of the moon. “The details of the Moon are: Age: 19H (hour) 05M (minutes); Hour Angle/DE:04H 45M 11S(seconds)/+12 21’11′; Distance between sun and moon: 3.5′.” http://dailypost.ng/2014/07/29/ramadan-investigation-shows-new-moon-wasnt-sighted-sultan-declared/ And they led by his royal highness, the Sultan, can sue the Premium news for ibanilorukoje. maclatunji: Sunnati Nabiyy is the routing practice and saying (order, advice etc) of the illustrious prophet (peace be on him and his ahl al-bayt) passed down from generations. Sunnah changes with circumstances and the "newly established sunnah" can abrogate the older sunnah just like an ayah of the Quran abrogate another ayah. Therefore recently done sunnah is usually considered. |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by Rilwayne001: 9:33pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
AlBaqir: My brother...we don enter one chance ooo |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by ShehuAba(m): 9:40pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
The fact is that this premium times report doesn't represent the stance of the sultan. You can twist the news as much as you wish. Until the sultan releases a press statement. This news remains a crap. Look at the headline: totally misleading. Prove me wrong, where in the report insinuate that sultan or the palace made such a statement. Those of us who followed the sultan, followed the Quran and the hadith. some people even talk about not celebrating with other countries. That doesn't hold water and is baseless according to the Quran and sunnah and the sayings of the ulamaa. |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by ShehuAba(m): 9:46pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
AlBaqir: Look at what you are saying. That sunnah changes according to circumstances and the newly established sunnah can abrogate the older sunnah. Which sunnah is old and which one is new, and how can that be abrogated . which one is recently done sunnah and who authorizes such/ |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by tbaba1234: 9:52pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
My position, summarized. I. If there is an announcement from the Islamic authorities that the moon is sighted then fast can be ended and eid begins. Regardless, of your reservations. The Eid is for the community. ii. There are advancements in moon sightings that tell us with accuracy whether the moon can be sighted in a region. Testimonies that contradict this can easily be said to be false. iii. We have to stop making these mistakes, other muslim countries do not make these mistakes anymore. Below is the visbility of the moon for both days:
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| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by AlBaqir(m): 9:59pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
ShehuAba: maclatunji's question is what is sunnah, so I give my definition based on the question and not yet on the subject matter "moon-sighting". In the case of moon-sighting, there is nothing like abrogation of any sunnah by another sunnah. Should you keen to know how sunnah abrogate other sunnah, let's mEet @maclatunji's side talk otherwise we will derail this thread. Salam |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by AlBaqir(m): 9:59pm On Jul 29, 2014 |
ShehuAba: |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by Empiree: 2:43am On Jul 30, 2014 |
I reason with Mac though. I think he's simply saying "following sunnah" is sufficient. nothing wrong with that. But others do too. I am not going to get involved in whether they truly saw the moon on Saturday or not. My understanding of situation like is reported in famous hadith that such fast has to be repaid if it's found later to be untrue (like Sultan retracted his position). Mac and others, I think to remove doubt you should just repay one day fast to be at ease. We just be careful next time. My understanding is that this is NOT Kafara. It's not intentional. Kafara is linked with intention. Just repay and done with this argument. Moon sighting has always been questionable for donkey years. So pls get over this back n fourth brouhaha. This is a matter concerning authority. They are responsible not you and I. Do you even know that today (Tuesday) is the eld in some places too like Trinidad and other countries. And also some in Nigeria celebrate Eld on Tuesday. I wish Muslims can just get together and just wait for Makkah to make announcement for Ramadan and Haj yearly. That's easy instead of this or that. Pardon my ignorance though Anyways pls get over this. It's Fajr in Makkah. Get up and make wudu NOW!!!! http://www.searchtruth.com/tv.php |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by Empiree: 2:45am On Jul 30, 2014 |
Rilwayne001: Lol, I have not heard this phrase in a long time. |
| Re: Sultan's Palace Admits That Celebrating 'id On Sunday Was An Error? by tpia1: 4:08am On Jul 30, 2014 |
just do the extra fast nah? If you feel you need to. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . So pls get over this back n fourth brouhaha. This is a matter concerning authority. They are responsible not you gbam. |
akhi you waka follow sultan? Hope u no commit "kafara" o. 
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