JMAN05:

When ur encyclopedia identify what you give to Mary as worship, dont blame another person if he calls it worship.

I don't know what Encyclopedia you're referring to, however, in its original usage, the word 'Worship' also meant to give respect, reverence, honour. You see this in usage in the British court sytem where you hear 'your worship'. These days its more common to say 'your honour'.
Within the CC, the words Latria - is Adoration/worship given to the Trinity alone (I know it's against JW teaching), while Dulia is the honour given to Saints.

btoks: Ah Ok. So where is the church Ireaneaus was referring to?

Ignatius sorry. He was referring to xtians at that time.

It was latter that the word was used for Pope of Rome loyalists.

btoks: I don't know what Encyclopedia you're referring to, however, in its original usage, the word 'Worship' also meant to give respect, reverence, honour. You see this in usage in the British court sytem where you hear 'your worship'. These days its more common to say 'your honour'.
Within the CC, the words Latria - is Adoration/worship given to the Trinity alone (I know it's against JW teaching), while Dulia is the honour given to Saints.

I am talking of xtain worship here, xtian worship. The one given to Mary is among what you define under xtian worship. The point is clear.

check how dulia is used in the bible. Wether they gave it to dead saints.

JMAN05:

Ignatius sorry. He was referring to xtians at that time.

It was latter that the word was used for Pope of Rome loyalists.

so do yu agree that St ignatius was a true xtian? because i will soon start posting copies of his numerous writings which goes against your JW teaching begining with the eucharist.The fact is that St Ignatius was even among the apostolic fathers who met the apostles and had opportunity of discussing physically and learning from them.

chukwudi44:

so do yu agree that St ignatius was a true xtian? because i will soon start posting copies of his numerous writings which goes against your JW teaching begining with the eucharist.The fact is that St Ignatius was even among the apostolic fathers who met the apostles and had opportunity of discussing physically and learning from them.

No. I didnt say that he and the other so called apostolic fathers were true xtians. In short the titles and clergy-laity distinction the introduced is an indication of what the prophesy says.

Even in the days of the apostles, these apostasy has started. There death served as an open door for more falsehood to creep in. read 2Thess. 2:6-8

Even the so called fathers never taught one thing. There are those who believe one thing that others never believed.

Jesus prophesied about this apostasy at Matt 13:24-30.

Its better then to stick to the Rule: Do not go beyond the things that are written. 1Cor. 4:6.

OLAADEGBU:

What gives you the impression that this is referring to the RCC?

the fact that it talks of confession, bishops, eucharist...


Things i'm sure u "church" doesn't have.

JMAN05:

No. I didnt say that he and the other so called apostolic fathers were true xtians. In short the titles and clergy-laity distinction the introduced is an indication of what the prophesy says.

Even in the days of the apostles, these apostasy has started. There death served as an open door for more falsehood to creep in. read 2Thess. 2:6-8

Even the so called fathers never taught one thing. There are those who believe one thing that others never believed.

Jesus prophesied about this apostasy at Matt 13:24-30.

Its better then to stick to the Rule: Do not go beyond the things that are written. 1Cor. 4:6.

i'm pretty sure you are misinterpreting that passage.

I'm pretty certain of another rule that says
"hold on to all the traditions you have recieved from us either by letter or by word"



a good question that we have been asking is: what happen to the church that the apostles founded? Did it become extinct?

Ubenedictus:

the fact that it talks of confession, bishops, eucharist...


Things i'm sure u "church" doesn't have.

Did any of the apostles say we should be confessing to priests, popes or worshiping the wafer?

OLAADEGBU:

Did any of the apostles say we should be confessing to priests, popes or worshiping the wafer?

Even better – you can go to Our Lord Jesus speaking John 20: 21- Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you retain their sins, they are retained. [i][/i] How would the apostles ( apostolic succession to Bishops & Priests) know what sins to forgive or retain? Only via confession to the them. This practice goes way back to the early days of Christianity.

Re - Eucharistic Adoration (not wafer worship), the bread becomes our Lord JESUS after the words of consecration by Jesus through the priest. (John 6 - TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT,FOR THIS IS MY BODY>>>>>> . This practice goes back to early Christianity through the middle ages and was formally declared as worship at the Council of Trent (16th Cent.) after challenges from protestants! Similar councils declared the majority of the articles of Christian Faith in earlier centuries ( e.g. books of the Bible, Trinity, nature of Christ, Circumcision etc.). My question to you is: if Jesus were to appear in front of you today, will you adore him or not?

^^^

In essence, all true believer can forgive sins. not reserved for any pastor, priest or whatever if we are to go by that verse.

honeric01: ^^^

In essence, all true believer can forgive sins. not reserved for any pastor, priest or whatever if we are to go by that verse.

Unfortunately, this is trying to explain the verse away but this goes against Christian history. Can these believers also retain sins?

btoks:

Unfortunately, this is trying to explain the verse away but this goes against Christian history. Can these believers also retain sins?

Where in Scriptures does it say that we should confess our sins to a priest?

OLAADEGBU:

Where in Scriptures does it say that we should confess our sins to a priest?

You've been on NL long enough to know that this question makes your own believe in Sola Scriptura fall on its face. Where in Scriptures does it say that I can only get answers from it? Where in Scriptures does it tell me what books make up the bible.This is weak, please read my previous post for the basis of confession(officially the sacrament of reconciliation).

btoks: Unfortunately, this is trying to explain the verse away but this goes against Christian history. Can these believers also retain sins?

If believers can't retain sins, then why should "priest" retain sin? are they more of a believer than a believer or do they possess some exclusive right to forgive and retain sins?

btoks:

You've been on NL long enough to know that this question makes your own believe in Sola Scriptura fall on its face. Where in Scriptures does it say that I can only get answers from it? Where in Scriptures does it tell me what books make up the bible.This is weak, please read my previous post for the basis of confession(officially the sacrament of reconciliation).

That is the difference between Christians and Roman Catholics. True Christians get their authority from the Word of God, Roman Catholics get their authority get their's from the Vatican.

honeric01:

If believers can't retain sins, then why should "priest" retain sin? are they more of a believer than a believer or do they possess some exclusive right to forgive and retain sins?

You don’t get the point; Priests can retain sins, for instance if after confessing a sin to the priest, one does not show contrition/ resolve not to commit the sin anymore, then the sin is retained by Jesus through the Priest. This practice goes way back and you can see its basis when Jesus gave the apostles the power to forgive/retain sins in John 20. Remember that the Jews did not think Jesus had the power to forgive sins (Luke 5:21), but we know he can and he gave the apostles this power as per John 20.

This point is different from asking the believers to forgive one another.
Please realise that bible did not just drop out of the sky with instructions on how to develop the christian faith in 33AD. In fact there were already established traditions, liturgy, sacraments in the Church before the books of the bible were completed. If you understand this then you'll see the context to a lot of practices in the Early church to date.

btoks:

You don’t get the point; Priests can retain sins, for instance if after confessing a sin to the priest, one does not show contrition/ resolve not to commit the sin anymore, then the sin is retained by Jesus through the Priest. This practice goes way back and you can see its basis when Jesus gave the apostles the power to forgive/retain sins in John 20. Remember that the Jews did not think Jesus had the power to forgive sins (Luke 5:21), but we know he can and he gave the apostles this power as per John 20.

This point is different from asking the believers to forgive one another.
Please realise that bible did not just drop out of the sky with instructions on how to develop the christian faith in 33AD. In fact there were already established traditions, liturgy, sacraments in the Church before the books of the bible were completed. If you understand this then you'll see the context to a lot of practices in the Early church to date.

You have not answered the question. Where in the Bible is it said that Christians should go to priests?

btoks: You don’t get the point; Priests can retain sins, for instance if after confessing a sin to the priest, one does not show contrition/ resolve not to commit the sin anymore, then the sin is retained by Jesus through the Priest. This practice goes way back and you can see its basis when Jesus gave the apostles the power to forgive/retain sins in John 20. Remember that the Jews did not think Jesus had the power to forgive sins (Luke 5:21), but we know he can and he gave the apostles this power as per John 20.

This point is different from asking the believers to forgive one another.
Please realise that bible did not just drop out of the sky with instructions on how to develop the christian faith in 33AD. In fact there were already established traditions, liturgy, sacraments in the Church before the books of the bible were completed. If you understand this then you'll see the context to a lot of practices in the Early church to date.

Where is it written to go to priest and priest alone to confess our sins?

Gave the Apostles or gave his followers? when you say "Apostle", are you talking about all true believers or some "selected believers"?

If you are talking about some selected believers, now that these "believers" are dead, why then gave the instruction to anyone else to forgive/retain sins?

Were these "traditions" given by God directly through Jesus or some set of people made these "traditions and laws"?

Is the bible not sufficient enough to lead that we need "traditions" outside the bible to run the affairs of the bible?

And when you say the "early church", are you talking about the same set of people that killed and tortured the early believers or who represent the early church?

Lastly, who are the early church and who persecuted these set of people as recorded in history?

[b][/b]

OLAADEGBU:

That is the difference between Christians and Roman Catholics. True Christians get their authority from the Word of God, Roman Catholics get their authority get their's from the Vatican.

So you have concluded that Catholics are not true Christians? Please let us know who the true Christians are. To refute your assertion, Catholic Christians get their authority from the Word of God [both written and Oral (Sacred tradition) - please see Thess 2:15] and the teaching Authority of the Church (1 Tim 3:15; matt 18:17). You did not address the points I raised.

OLAADEGBU:

You have not answered the question. Where in the Bible is it said that Christians should go to priests?

Once agin, this is very weak. I asked in an earlier post:
"Where in Scriptures does it say that I can only get answers from it? Where in Scriptures does it tell me what books make up the bible." Bros, Please sincerely read my previous posts for the answer to your question.

btoks:

[b][/b] So you have concluded that Catholics are not true Christians? Please let us know who the true Christians are. To refute your assertion, Catholic Christians get their authority from the Word of God [both written and Oral (Sacred tradition) - please see Thess 2:15] and the teaching Authority of the Church (1 Tim 3:15; matt 18:17). You did not address the points I raised.

The Mormons use the Bible and their book of Mormon as their source of authority, JW's use their bibles and the Watchtower magazines as their authorities. What makes you different when you join your "Sacred tradition" to the commandments of God as your authority?

btoks:

Once agin, this is very weak. I asked in an earlier post:
"Where in Scriptures does it say that I can only get answers from it? Where in Scriptures does it tell me what books make up the bible." Bros, Please sincerely read my previous posts for the answer to your question.

I get it now. Your authority comes from the "Sacred Traditions" of your church.

OLAADEGBU:

The Mormons use the Bible and their book of Mormon as their source of authority, JW's use their bibles and the Watchtower magazines as their authorities. What makes you different when you join your "Sacred tradition" to the commandments of God as your authority?

Please do not compare the Catholic Church with the Mormons and JWs - these organisations came more than 1600 years after the birth of Christianity. the difference with the Catholic Church is that it has existed since the beginning of Christianity, it predates the new testament and compiled books of the bible based on its traditions. I pointed you to Thess. 2:15 which you did not address. You do realise that the established church at different recieved those letters in the bibles?

OLAADEGBU:

I get it now. Your authority comes from the "Sacred Traditions" of your church.

Bros, I hope your not been sarcastic here. Just to burst your bubble, the bible was complied based on the traditions of the catholic church - Historical fact.

[b][/b]

honeric01:

Where is it written to go to priest and priest alone to confess our sins? [b]I have addressed this, please see previous posts[b]

Gave the Apostles or gave his followers? when you say "Apostle", are you talking about all true believers or some "selected believers"?

If you are talking about some selected believers, now that these "believers" are dead, why then gave the instruction to anyone else to forgive/retain sins? - [b]Apostolic Succession to Bishops and priests[b]

Were these "traditions" given by God directly through Jesus or some set of people made these "traditions and laws"?

Is the bible not sufficient enough to lead that we need "traditions" outside the bible to run the affairs of the bible? How do you know that you need to follow the bible, why not any other holy book? Please note that the church existed before the bible was completed. The books were created for the established church.[b]

And when you say the "early church", are you talking about the same set of people that killed and tortured the early believers or who represent the early church? [b]So by this you mean the gates of hell prevailed against the Church as opposed to what Jesus said? Please clarify.[b]

Lastly, who are the early church and who persecuted these set of people as recorded in history?

[b]bros this has been addressed on this thread, please read my previous posts.[b][b][b]

honeric01:

Where is it written to go to priest and priest alone to confess our sins? [b]I have addressed this, please see previous posts[b]

Gave the Apostles or gave his followers? when you say "Apostle", are you talking about all true believers or some "selected believers"?

If you are talking about some selected believers, now that these "believers" are dead, why then gave the instruction to anyone else to forgive/retain sins? - [b]Apostolic Succession to Bishops and priests[b]

Were these "traditions" given by God directly through Jesus or some set of people made these "traditions and laws"?

Is the bible not sufficient enough to lead that we need "traditions" outside the bible to run the affairs of the bible? How do you know that you need to follow the bible, why not any other holy book? Please note that the church existed before the bible was completed. The books were created for the established church.[b]

And when you say the "early church", are you talking about the same set of people that killed and tortured the early believers or who represent the early church? [b]So by this you mean the gates of hell prevailed against the Church as opposed to what Jesus said? Please clarify.[b]

Lastly, who are the early church and who persecuted these set of people as recorded in history?

[b]bros this has been addressed on this thread, please read my previous posts.[b][b][/b]

honeric01:

Where is it written to go to priest and priest alone to confess our sins? [b]I have addressed this, please see previous posts[b]

Gave the Apostles or gave his followers? when you say "Apostle", are you talking about all true believers or some "selected believers"?

If you are talking about some selected believers, now that these "believers" are dead, why then gave the instruction to anyone else to forgive/retain sins? - [b]Apostolic Succession to Bishops and priests[b]

Were these "traditions" given by God directly through Jesus or some set of people made these "traditions and laws"?

Is the bible not sufficient enough to lead that we need "traditions" outside the bible to run the affairs of the bible? [b]How do you know that you need to follow the bible, why not any other holy book? Please note that the church existed before the bible was completed. The books were created for the established church.[b]

And when you say the "early church", are you talking about the same set of people that killed and tortured the early believers or who represent the early church? [b]So by this you mean the gates of hell prevailed against the Church as opposed to what Jesus said? Please clarify.[b]

Lastly, who are the early church and who persecuted these set of people as recorded in history? - [b]bros this has been addressed on this thread, please read my previous posts.[b]

Problems responding but you'll see my responses within your quote. got a [b] before and after.

btoks:

Bros, I hope your not been sarcastic here. Just to burst your bubble, the bible was complied based on the traditions of the catholic church - Historical fact.

In other words, the Hebrew Scriptures was compiled based on the traditions of the catholic church.

Ubenedictus:

i'm pretty sure you are misinterpreting that passage.

I'm pretty certain of another rule that says
"hold on to all the traditions you have recieved from us either by letter or by word"

You never interpreted it either. Because what apostle Paul spoke never go against the things that are written.

a good question that we have been asking is: what happen to the church that the apostles founded? Did it become extinct?

And I ve answered that query with Matt 13:24-30. I also quote 2Thess 2:6-7.

I dont know what your questions aim to achieve. When you mention the church, dont allow RCC to run into ur head. And dont also view church as if it is a building situated in Rome.

After the apostles who acted as "restraint" against falsehood died out, false teaching unfiltrated the church as Jesus and Paul prophesied. These apostasy has been gaining momentum during the first century, but escalated when the apostles died out.

Before then, there were no difference between Elder and Overseer. They all referred to one office. But after the apostles died, the apostates saw opportunity to grow taller. Peter know nothing about Pope you attribute to him, and never did he transfer any Papal authority to anybody. Not to talk of given Pope to another person when one of the 12 was still alive.

Jesus illustration said that 'let the wheat, (true xtians) and the weed, (imitation xtians) grow together until the harvest season - time of the end'.

So most of the teachings the so called apostolic fathers propagate which are not scriptural are fake. Secondly, all of them never taught the same thing. Which leads to my earlier point - We winnow those false teachings with "what is written".

btoks: [/b] [b]bros this has been addressed on this thread, please read my previous posts.[b][b][b] bros this has been addressed on this thread, please read my previous posts.[b][b][/b] Problems responding but you'll see my responses within your quote. got a [b] before and after.

No, you didn't address then, rather you beat around the bush, the bible reference you used can be easily interpreted to mean "disciples", apostles are his Disciples and his disciples are his followers which are Christians,you remember Matt 21?

Jesus did not give the charging to Bishops and Priests, he gave the charging to his DISCIPLES. any true believer is a disciple of Christ!

The bible remains the only book we were given as Christians to follow, read the last 3 verses of the last chapter of Revelation, unless you are saying the bible is incomplete and needs other books to make it 100% complete.

I was very clear and i will repeat again: when you say the "early church", are you talking about the same set of people that killed and tortured the early believers or who represent the early church?

JMAN05:

You never interpreted it either. Because what apostle Paul spoke never go against the things that are written.



And I ve answered that query with Matt 13:24-30. I also quote 2Thess 2:6-7.

where are the so called answers?

I dont know what your questions aim to achieve. When you mention the church, dont allow RCC to run into ur head. And dont also view church as if it is a building situated in Rome.

After the apostles who acted as "restraint" against falsehood died out, false teaching unfiltrated the church as Jesus and Paul prophesied. These apostasy has been gaining momentum during the first century, but escalated when the apostles died out.

so the gates of hell prevailed over the church of Christ?

Before then, there were no difference between Elder and Overseer. They all referred to one office. But after the apostles died, the apostates saw opportunity to grow taller. Peter know nothing about Pope you attribute to him, and never did he transfer any Papal authority to anybody. Not to talk of given Pope to another person when one of the 12 was still alive.

you never met peter, you didn't live around his timeline so it is silly to claim you know what he did and didn't do.

Jesus illustration said that 'let the wheat, (true xtians) and the weed, (imitation xtians) grow together until the harvest season - time of the end'.

So most of the teachings the so called apostolic fathers propagate which are not scriptural are fake. Secondly, all of them never taught the same thing. Which leads to my earlier point - We winnow those false teachings with "what is written".

sorry the bible never said we should winnow away apostolic traditions, it says we should hold on to it.

honeric01: ^^^

In essence, all true believer can forgive sins. not reserved for any pastor, priest or whatever if we are to go by that verse.

actually that statement was made to the apostle alone, not to all the disciples.

All xtian can't forgive sins, only those who have recieved the laying of hands that can be traced back to the apostles can.

Ubenedictus:

actually that statement was made to the apostle alone, not to all the disciples.

All xtian can't forgive sins, only those who have recieved the laying of hands that can be traced back to the apostles can.

Did hr actually lay hands on the apostles? if he did, then who laid hands on the fathers, popes e.t.c that the catholics have?

honeric01:

No, you didn't address then, rather you beat around the bush, the bible reference you used can be easily interpreted to mean "disciples", apostles are his Disciples and his disciples are his followers which are Christians,you remember Matt 21?

Jesus did not give the charging to Bishops and Priests, he gave the charging to his DISCIPLES. any true believer is a disciple of Christ!

The bible remains the only book we were given as Christians to follow, read the last 3 verses of the last chapter of Revelation, unless you are saying the bible is incomplete and needs other books to make it 100% complete.

I was very clear and i will repeat again: when you say the "early church", are you talking about the same set of people that killed and tortured the early believers or who represent the early church?

Unfortunately, your history is way off.this is what happens when you practice sola scriptura with no historical context. Please look at the church set up prior to 16th century and you'll find confession to priests. Even the 1st protestants, Lutherans,have a form of confession.
Re. The bible given to us, who gave it to us as the only book to follow and when?pls be sincere. Im sure ure aware that the book of revelations is only one book of the bible and was highly disputed as inspired for a long time.

Early Christianity has been addressed in previous posts but could you tell me where the early Christian church is today as it must exist according to lord Jesus.