Can Nigeria and Africa at large create and sustain capacity to function without Money? Where Everybody gets what they need for free, there is zero poverty? I think that much of sub-saharan Africa is a vast template where anything is possible...since there isn't as much infrastructure in place compared to their western counterparts.

Or is it that we aren't innovative and strong enough yet?

The problem though is that we don't have that many homegrown engineers and scientists to execute this reality.

EDIT: Note, the sort of economy I referring to differs widely from communism. See my second post.

Features of this sort of civilization (i.e. resource-based economy):

1. Cities and towns are structured in such a way that human beings can live luxuriously without jeopardising the environment. Sustainable technology is key. There is no reliance on finite resources (i.e. oil and gas) as natural elements such as the ocean and the sun is used to generate energy. Transportation modes such as cars and aeroplanes are inefficient and will be replaced by more automated transit services such as ultra high speed trains and high speed submarine ships that can travel globally in half the time. Food will be generated in such a way that it does not affect the durability of soil. Animals and fishery would be farmed without much harm or disruption to the Earth's ecology. Agricultural and marine belts that grow large quantities of food in skyscraper greenhouses can sustains billions of peoples.

2. Food, clothing, and high-tech shelters such as homes and apartments are provided to every individual and family. Many luxuries such as technological gadgets can be borrowed from large public storehouses and returned for the next person to use. Apartment buildings and entertainment complexes can be structured as ultra skyscrapers. In short, cities in buildings that are self-sustaining in terms of modern wants and needs will be the norm. You can basically live comfortably in one gigantic tower and not need to venture out unless you are in a travelling mood. This sort of living arrangement will end the need to use up excess amounts of land to accommodate a fast growing population. Soon, materialism would generally be seen as unsavory due to changes in cultural tastes.

3. No need for jobs. Much of the mundane work, such as administrative roles, healthcare, doctor diagnoses, surgeries, janitorial duties, processing, will be conducted by robots. Humans initially may be charged with robot repairs but the end goal is to create an artificial intelligence (AI), that will be in charge of the machines which will help us run our economies smoothly. Machines will be then engineered to re-create themselves and self-repair to infinity.

4. With such high levels of automation and provisions, corporations, businesses, jobs, work, 9-5 desk prisons where we hate our lives, or blue-collar slavery for poor masses will be obsolete. Literally all functions that keep a society running will be attended to by robots. This will give everyone time to pursue endeavors such as arts and entertainment, or fields that appeal to them on a personal level. The average person will be highly educated and well versed in many fields. In other words, a generalist population rather than specialist, will be what is strived for.

5. Since scarcity and lack would have been eradicated, everyone is fulfilled and satisfied with life. With no incentive to grab power, look down on others or create arbitrary social stratifications, many of the negative incentives for crime, violence, unrest, civil wars, strife, will cease to exist. Eventually neuroses and psychoses will also be eliminated and peace for its own sake will be the order of the day. Which leads to the following eventuality:

6. There will be no need for laws. No need for governments or politicians. Every human being will be afforded a chance to reach a higher plane of awareness and spirituality...as such the protections and limitations from laws or ruling powers will be of no use to a human living in this era.

I saw this documentary and it really made me think:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Ya5qiiW6k

Please watch it patiently and share your thoughts. Maybe the end of capitalism, dependence on money and other oppressive economic measures is really the way out for us.

Lol. I like the way you think or perhaps dream. Your thoughts are too unrealistic, even God wouldn't think of such.

J12: Lol. I like the way you think or perhaps dream. Your thoughts are too unrealistic, even God wouldn't think of such.

Why do you think this is unrealistic though?

Think about this...many of the technologies that can at least get the ground running already exist. Various feats in robotics (as evidenced in Japan) and sustainable technologies are there for all of us to see.

We just can't make the shift because there are presently so many stakeholders at the top who run this capitalist world. Would airline corporations and car manufacturers easily agree to this radical change? What about oil companies? What about the billionaires and oligarchs who value their powers?

However we in Africa are actually luckier than most because we are not as dependent on capitalism as other countries. Our problem is that we don't have enough manpower in terms of engineers, technologies, and means to convert resources to the needed goods (as automated as possible). We also believe that we are too powerless to even dream about this...we would rather watch Europeans and Asians have a go first before copying them.

If we had the manpower and confidence, I don't see why trying this out will be a problem. Our forefathers hundreds of years ago can never imagine a modern world as this now...with airplanes, computers, instagram and facebook, hightech and other indicators of the current age. Never say never!

its been done before, it's communism and it doesn't work because of corruption and under-productivity.

Ikengawo: its been done before, it's communism and it doesn't work because of corruption and under-productivity.

The flaw with communism is that it didn't create the technology to counteract scarcity and increase automation.

If scarcity was eradicated and everyone was basically catered for comfortably (even luxuriously), then my point still stands.

The key is creating the right technology to power this sort of economy. Refer to my second paragraph.

chulla12:

The flaw with communism is that it didn't create the technology to counteract scarcity.

If scarcity was eradicated and everyone was basically catered for comfortably (even luxuriously), then my point still stands.

The key is creating the right technology to power this sort of economy. Refer to my second paragraph.

what would motivate one person to cater for others if there's no incentive?

People leave their jobs because there's not enough pay in the current system (in more developed countries), what will make someone do something for free to keep the system going? Why would someone want to produce anything if they'll get paid regardless? Not everyone has a good heart and cares about the general welfare of the entire nation

chulla12:

Why do you think this is unrealistic though?

Think about this...many of the technologies that can at least get the ground running already exist. Various feats in robotics (as evidenced in Japan) and sustainable technologies are there for all of us to see.

We just can't make the shift because there are presently so many stakeholders at the top who run this capitalist world. Would airline corporations and car manufacturers easily agree to this radical change. What about oil companies? What about the billionaires and oligarchs who value their powers?

However we in Africa are actually luckier than most because we are not as dependent on capitalism as other countries. Our problem is that we don't have enough manpower in terms of engineers, technologies, and means to convert resources to the goods we need. We also believe that we are too powerless to even dream about this...we would rather watch Europeans and Asians have a go first before copying them.

If we had the manpower and confidence, I don't see why trying this out will be a problem. Our forefathers hundreds of years ago can never imagine a modern world as this now...with airplanes, computers, instagram and facebook, hightech and other indicators of the current age. Never say never!

Lol. No matter how you put it, its still an unrealistic economic and social model. They run counter to proven ecomonic and social theories. Human wants are insatiable, that's the basic factor you should consider.

Ikengawo:
what would motivate one person to cater for others if there's no incentive?

People leave their jobs because there's not enough pay in the current system (in more developed countries), what will make someone do something for free to keep the system going? Why would someone want to produce anything if they'll get paid regardless? Not everyone has a good heart and cares about the general welfare of the entire nation

I edited my response to you for clarity. The end goal is to create robots and other automations so that people will have no need to work in the first place. Read my second post on this thread to get a better gist of what this society will look like.

I believe that the technology for this sort of thing (however primitive) is already in place. We just need to grow it even further.

My account number is 1234567890 - FIRST BANK NIG.

Oga send me N100,000 this Monday... am hoping you are tired of using "Money"

J12:

Lol. No matter how you put it, its still an unrealistic economic and social model. They run counter to proven ecomonic and social theories. Human wants are insatiable, that's the basic factor you should consider.

This is subject to how humans are conditioned, to be honest.

There was a time when the average person could live well without designer clothes and smart phones. Without blinking an eyelid, even.

These things can be contained easily. A big reason for all these wants lie with advertisements, social expectations of what should be desirable (i.e. wealth and power) coupled with the scarcity of these things that we are "supposed" to desire.

Assuming our basic needs are met, wouldn't it be possible to engineer a society where there is an insatiable need only for knowledge, higher levels of intelligence? It's a matter of conditioning and changing our cultural inclinations.

This may make for a stimulating discussion if it hit the front page.

Mods please do the needful.

chulla12:

This is subject to how humans are conditioned, to be honest.

There was a time when the average person could live well without designer clothes and smart phones. Without blinking an eyelid, even.

These things can be contained easily. A big reason for all these wants lie with advertisements, social expectations of what should be desirable (i.e. wealth and power) coupled with the scarcity of these things that we are "supposed" to desire.

Assuming our basic needs are met, wouldn't it be possible to engineer a society where there is an insatiable need only for knowledge, higher levels of intelligence? It's a matter of conditioning and changing our cultural inclinations.

Humans are instinctively greedy. It is not basically caused by advertisements and marketing. They merely exploit this primary aspect of human psychology for profit.

Also note that the human society has always been divided by social and economic class. There will always be rich and poor. Therefore, given that humans are instinctively greedy and insatiable, the poor will always strive to be rich and the rich will always strive to be richer.

So contrary to your claim that human greed can be contained, primary evidence shows that it is impossible to contain the greed of the human race.

Also, if there is an insatiable need or desire for knowledge and higher levels of intelligence, how will it be profitably or beneficially applied to improve society given that there would be no reward or compensation for this gesture? In other words, how do you reward ingenuity and creativity in your economic model?

chulla12:

I edited my response to you for clarity. The end goal is to create robots and other automations so that people will have no need to work in the first place. Read my second paragraph to get a better gist of what this society will look like.

I believe that the technology for this sort of thing (however primitive) is already in place. We just need to grow it even further.

what about service jobs? like counselors, restaurant servers, there are too many industries that rely on being able to communicate with and relate to another person (though less in Nigeria than in the west)

J12:

Humans are instinctively greedy. It is not basically caused by advertisements and marketing. They merely exploit this primary aspect of human psychology for profit.

Also note that the human society has always been divided by social and economic class. There will always be rich and poor. Therefore, given that humans are instinctively greedy and insatiable, the poor will always strive to be rich and the rich will always strive to be richer.

So contrary to your claim that human greed can be contained, primary evidence shows that it is impossible to contain the greed of the human race.

Also, if there is an insatiable need or desire for knowledge and higher levels of intelligence, how will it be profitably or beneficially applied to improve society given that there would be no reward or compensation for this gesture? In other words, how do you reward ingenuity and creativity in your economic model?

Human greed is motivated by a need for material things because society has long been fashioned after a model of scarcity. Think of it in this way - in the days where food was scarce and hunger was a norm, it was almost normal to hoard vast amounts of food and other needfuls for self-sustenance since those necessities were not guaranteed. Over time the value placed on human basics such as food, shelter, and other commodities became overemphasized, such that ownership of these possessions was associated with personal achievement and power. After this came the introduction of money (which is a by-product of scarcity. Money measures how much you are able to access these scarce items). In this sort of society vices such as greed, power lust and influence over poorer people due to this becomes the order of the day.

Assuming a society was created such that everything we needed was there in abundance for free, and where everyone was equal in any ramification, of what use would "greed" be? Why hoard and store and acquire stuff that can easily be gotten and discarded due to abundance.

Why lust for power and influence when society has been conditioned to think that it is not important in anyway (or seen as something stupid and primitive)?

The insatiable need for knowledge can be conditioned as any other type of attitude. Take a look at Nairaland for instance. There is actually not much incentive to post and be an active member here (also the case of other social media such as facebook, twitter), but billions of people find personal gratification in coming online to exchange ideas (positive and negative), such much so that you have readers and members who spend a lot of time in websites such as NL despite the lack of material motivations to do so.

Knowledge seeking can be popular hobby for everyone to pursue. If people are trained to think that intellectual contributions to society is a noble and enjoyable thing in and of itself...I don't see why knowledge seeking as a desire can't be the norm.

I am telling you that tastes and desires are very much malleable.

Ikengawo:

what about service jobs? like counselors, restaurant servers, there are too many industries that rely on being able to communicate with and relate to another person (though less in Nigeria than in the west)

I honestly think that advanced AI can handle all of these things.

This is impossible to imagine at this stage of our development but recall that people a hundred years ago would not even be able to imagine the gains we have achieved in the last 60 years.

Maybe I'm being over-imaginative...but things like this start with dreams.

I don't see that happening in the next 50yrs with the crop of leaders we keep turning up. Perhaps when you take a trip to the rural areas and interior villages, you'd understand my sentiment.

Yes Nigeria can....But it will take time. How long? I don't know..Let us ask America

chulla12:

Human greed is motivated by a need for material things because society has long been fashioned after a model of scarcity. Think of it in this way - in the days where food was scarce and hunger was a norm, it was almost normal to hoard vast amounts of food and other needfuls for self-sustenance since those necessities were not guaranteed. Over time the value placed on human basics such as food, shelter, and other commodities became overemphasized, such that ownership of these possessions was associated with personal achievement and power. After this came the introduction of money (which is a by-product of scarcity. Money measures how much you are able to access these scarce items). In this sort of society vices such as greed, power lust and influence over poorer people due to this becomes the order of the day.

Assuming a society was created such that everything we needed was there in abundance for free, and where everyone was equal in any ramification, of what use would "greed" be? Why hoard and store and acquire stuff that can easily be gotten and discarded due to abundance.

Why lust for power and influence when society has been conditioned to think that it is not important in anyway (or seen as something stupid and primitive)?

The insatiable need for knowledge can be conditioned as any other type of attitude. Take a look at Nairaland for instance. There is actually not much incentive to post and be an active member here (also the case of other social media such as facebook, twitter), but billions of people find personal gratification in coming online to exchange ideas (positive and negative), such much so that you have readers and members who spend a lot of time in websites such as NL despite the lack of material motivations to do so.

Knowledge seeking can be popular hobby for everyone to pursue. If people are trained to think that intellectual contributions to society is a noble and enjoyable thing in and of itself...I don't see why knowledge seeking as a desire can't be the norm.

I am telling you that tastes and desires are very much malleable.

Like I previously said, greed is a human instinct and although it can be controlled, there’s always a constant resurgence, temptation and desire to want more. The motivation for greed is constant and not primarily influenced the availability or unavailability of material things. For instance, people who already have want more not because they lack but it’s basically due to greed and non-satisfaction.
So, making basic human needs readily available and abundant is not a guarantee to curtail human greed as we will always hunger for more. Even if the basic needs are provided, there are bound to be some secondary wants that most people will desire and compete for.
On the quest for knowledge- Your analogy of the internet and social platforms to compare knowledge seeking doesn’t get to me. They are two entirely different things. Even if people are thought to gain knowledge and contribute or give the knowledge back freely to society, there will still be some issues. For example, some people will gain more knowledge than others; this in your own economic and social context is quite unfair. Also, knowledge is infinite and vast, someone may try to gain knowledge of what may not be beneficial to the public in your society, this knowledge eventually goes to waste because its not utilized. Again, to gain some level of knowledge, you need tools and resources that are not easily accessible by the general public. How will they get these tools if there is no money? So if someone wants to invent a car that runs on solar energy or water and he invests his time and money and it eventually becomes successful, who will be responsible for the mass production of the cars given that the government owns all the factors of production?
Your societal model is inherently flawed. It runs contrary to general human behavior. Humans are greedy, fearful, social, political and intelligent. A combination of these factors fuels our attitudes towards each other and our environment. Human nature and society is so diverse and complex that we need a similar structure and system to balance our interactions with each other and our environment
A lot of issues will definitely go wrong with your system. First, resources are scarce and human wants are insatiable. So if you want to make all basic human needs readily available, that’s your fist mistake because not everybody wants the same thing. We all have different tastes and the resources required to produce goods that will fulfill these desires and tastes are not readily available. Think about alcohol, who will produce alcohol? Secondly, this will only work in a manufacturing based economy. Humans don’t only need tangible products, intangible services like prostitution and strip clubs, sports, media and entertainment, some level of education, religion etc. Think about musicians and actors, how will they be compensated in your society?
Thirdly, how will the country earn? You need money to provide these needs for your citizens so how will they be financed?
There are many more problems with your ideal society and economy but I don’t have the time to talk about them now. Cheers

This is actually possible with human labour invested heavily in technology development.

The only thing stopping the human race from going back to moneyless society where everyone gets what they want is because some want more than necessary. Since economics preaches that resources are limited, those who want more and are getting it are not creating wealth or resources, they are hoarding it and since 1 has more, others must have less simple !! that is how the money society works.

Now, imagine if money isn't involved and we all just wake up, those who love to do research can go do it, those who work 2hrs/day on community farms go at it, etc.. students are taught only by teachers who actually enjoy teaching children and not by those looking to make ends meet, doctors will be those interested in the human health and not just the brilliant folks doing it because it's more money than say teaching which is their call etc..

Without money, we will develop our spirit. Societies with more humans will have a real good go at it. A

Someone mentioned greed: These non material qualities of humans are induced not genetically but societally. Like the Native Americans who see hoarding of wealth as slavery in the sense that they punish some crimes by putting all the community's wealth in the hands of the offender. In such society people will not value wealth. But the opposite is the case is this modern time. Wealth brings respect blah bluh blah blay.. But if wealth is not given much prestige and we give prestige to more honourable qualities like honesty, caring, sharing etc... Watch how every human on the face of the earth will be rushing for such and quickly caring, sharing etc.. But because of the preference of the society, greed is inevitable. If society gave ultimate respect to those who make it all and give it all back to the people, greed will be a thing no one will want to be associated with.

A lot of your points still revolve around the use of money and the possibility of scarcity.

Which means that my central point still stands.

Assuming a society evolves where there is no need for money and everything we need to live comfortably is abundant, why would greed exist? These scenarios are very possible to achieve.

You talk about needing money to build necessary things to survive, but I am already presenting a society where money is obsolete and does not exist, and where construction and engineering (to our demands) will be met by automated robots and AI. There is no need to "earn" anything since we have engineered a society where all that we need, we can obtain free of charge.

When I mean free, I mean FREE. Including education and the acquisition of knowledge, tools (physical and otherwise) to expand on knowledge as well. When you think about it - free self-education is actually more a reality nowadays. With free online universities (such as the Khan Academy, the Open University), free lectures from esteemed schools such as Berkeley on Youtube, free classes from MIT available online (but not for credit), etc.

What makes free, quality knowledge seeking, education and enhancement such an impossibility? Dude expand your mind.

J12:

Like I previously said, greed is a human instinct and although it can be controlled, there’s always a constant resurgence, temptation and desire to want more. The motivation for greed is constant and not primarily influenced the availability or unavailability of material things. For instance, people who already have want more not because they lack but it’s basically due to greed and non-satisfaction.
So, making basic human needs readily available and abundant is not a guarantee to curtail human greed as we will always hunger for more. Even if the basic needs are provided, there are bound to be some secondary wants that most people will desire and compete for.
On the quest for knowledge- Your analogy of the internet and social platforms to compare knowledge seeking doesn’t get to me. They are two entirely different things. Even if people are thought to gain knowledge and contribute or give the knowledge back freely to society, there will still be some issues. For example, some people will gain more knowledge than others; this in your own economic and social context is quite unfair. Also, knowledge is infinite and vast, someone may try to gain knowledge of what may not be beneficial to the public in your society, this knowledge eventually goes to waste because its not utilized. Again, to gain some level of knowledge, you need tools and resources that are not easily accessible by the general public. How will they get these tools if there is no money? So if someone wants to invent a car that runs on solar energy or water and he invests his time and money and it eventually becomes successful, who will be responsible for the mass production of the cars given that the government owns all the factors of production?
Your societal model is inherently flawed. It runs contrary to general human behavior. Humans are greedy, fearful, social, political and intelligent. A combination of these factors fuels our attitudes towards each other and our environment. Human nature and society is so diverse and complex that we need a similar structure and system to balance our interactions with each other and our environment
A lot of issues will definitely go wrong with your system. First, resources are scarce and human wants are insatiable. So if you want to make all basic human needs readily available, that’s your fist mistake because not everybody wants the same thing. We all have different tastes and the resources required to produce goods that will fulfill these desires and tastes are not readily available. Think about alcohol, who will produce alcohol? Secondly, this will only work in a manufacturing based economy. Humans don’t only need tangible products, intangible services like prostitution and strip clubs, sports, media and entertainment, some level of education, religion etc. Think about musicians and actors, how will they be compensated in your society?
Thirdly, how will the country earn? You need money to provide these needs for your citizens so how will they be financed?
There are many more problems with your ideal society and economy but I don’t have the time to talk about them now. Cheers

Thank you for being open minded to consider this.

0lumide: This is actually possible with human labour invested heavily in technology development.

The only thing stopping the human race from going back to moneyless society where everyone gets what they want is because some want more than necessary. Since economics preaches that resources are limited, those who want more and are getting it are not creating wealth or resources, they are hoarding it and since 1 has more, others must have less simple !! that is how the money society works.

Now, imagine if money isn't involved and we all just wake up, those who love to do research can go do it, those who work 2hrs/day on community farms go at it, etc.. students are taught only by teachers who actually enjoy teaching children and not by those looking to make ends meet, doctors will be those interested in the human health and not just the brilliant folks doing it because it's more money than say teaching which is their call etc..

Without money, we will develop our spirit. Societies with more humans will have a real good go at it. A

Someone mentioned greed: These non material qualities of humans are induced not genetically but societally. Like the Native Americans who see hoarding of wealth as slavery in the sense that they punish some crimes by putting all the community's wealth in the hands of the offender. In such society people will not value wealth. But the opposite is the case is this modern time. Wealth brings respect blah bluh blah blay.. But if wealth is not given much prestige and we give prestige to more honourable qualities like honesty, caring, sharing etc... Watch how every human on the face of the earth will be rushing for such and quickly caring, sharing etc.. But because of the preference of the society, greed is inevitable. If society gave ultimate respect to those who make it all and give it all back to the people, greed will be a thing no one will want to be associated with.

.

chulla12: A lot of your points still revolve around the use of money and the possibility of scarcity.

Which means that my central point still stands.

Assuming a society evolves where there is no need for money and everything we need to live comfortably is abundant, why would greed exist? These scenarios are very possible to achieve.

You talk about needing money to build necessary things to survive, but I am already presenting a society where money is obsolete and does not exist, and where construction and engineering (to our demands) will be met by automated robots and AI. There is no need to "earn" anything since we have engineered a society where all that we need, we can obtain free of charge.

When I mean free, I mean FREE. Including education and the acquisition of knowledge, tools (physical and otherwise) to expand on knowledge as well. When you think about it - free self-education is actually more a reality nowadays. With free online universities (such as the Khan Academy, the Open University), free lectures from esteemed schools such as Berkeley on Youtube, free classes from MIT available online (but not for credit), etc.

What makes free, quality knowledge seeking, education and enhancement such an impossibility? Dude expand your mind.

I really don't think you fully understood my opinions.