Babymama1:

You still don't get it
If you have a pestle you expect me to only use a pestle?

We are watching a clip where a man 's hand could have killed and you are talking about a stick

im only referring to the example u gave ma'am. Law is not black and white. U cant simply say u attack me i kill u and call it self-defence. Many facts are considered before u can justify an action as self-defence

Mondisweets:
That guy was never denied a second chance he can always try out another team. Its not like he was banned from playing football for the rest of his life.
Well we all have made mistakes in this life, that have changed our lives. He made one that messed up his career.
He was never denied the right to make the right decision. He decided to use behind to think and shittt happened.

Well he has been indefinitely suspended by the NFL. I don't think his wife will help the police in their investigation and since he hurried and married her after the news broke out she does not have to testify against him in court. He obviously knew that when this video gets out charges would be filed. Those of us who saw this earlier felt there was no case. It just looked like two intoxicated people embarrassing themselves. Now we know we were all wrong

Mondisweets: im only referring to the example u gave ma'am. Law is not black and white. U cant simply say u attack me i kill u and call it self-defence. Many facts are considered before u can justify an action as self-defence

Let me give you a definition of self defense from the legal dictionary,the first sentence there pretty much sums it up


self-defense n. the use of reasonable force to protect oneself or members of the family from bodily harm from the attack of an aggressor, if the defender has reason to believe he/she/they is/are in danger. Self-defense is a common defense by a person accused of assault, battery, or homicide. The force used in self-defense may be sufficient for protection from apparent harm (not just an empty verbal threat) or to halt any danger from attack, but cannot be an excuse to continue the attack or use excessive force. Examples: an unarmed man punches Allen Alibi, who hits the attacker with a baseball bat. That is legitimate self-defense, but Alibi cannot chase after the attacker and shoot him or beat him senseless. If the attacker has a gun or a butcher knife and is verbally threatening, Alibi is probably warranted in shooting him. Basically, appropriate self-defense is judged on all the circumstances. Reasonable force can also be used to protect property from theft or destruction. Self-defense cannot include killing or great bodily harm to defend property, unless personal danger is also involved, as is the case in most burglaries, muggings or vandalism. (See: defense, assault, homicide)

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Self-Defense

In Nigeria once someone dies the living one is at fault
Much the same way the police declares anyone they are paid to arrest,the guilty party
Civilized societies don't play by those rules
A man could beat his wife black and blue and everyone in the yard heard her cries and saw bruises from time to time and one day while being beaten,she summons enough strength to put a dagger through his chest she automatically becomes a murderer.
It shouldn't work that way

raumdeuter: @Mondisweets the analogy of which one is likely to cause harm wont fly in court if you have a good lawyer.

The only thing that matters is this part babymama wrote "FEARED FOR HIS LIFE"

Trayvon was shot dead because he punched with his 18yr old fist a 28yr old man and the man FEARED FOR HIS LIFE

The man is walking free now

Worst case manslaughter as long as it was done instantly, Not that you went away and came back meaning you had time to think it over

i had to go read about the case a bit, well George did looked like he was "visciously attacked" as someone would put it, and if the facts of the case ate entirely true and the pics of George taken after the incident are not photoshopped, i understand why his charges were acquited. This is not someone who was slapped or pushed by a hand 3times smaller than his and the fact that he had a duty to protect the neighbourhood does play a role. It would have been a different ball game if he didn't have a duty to protect the neighbourhood or he illegally possessed a fire weapon. Im not justfying his actions, but u have to remember that all facts have to be taken into account

Babymama1:

Let me give you a definition of self defense from the legal dictionary,the first sentence there pretty much sums it up


self-defense n. the use of reasonable force to protect oneself or members of the family from bodily harm from the attack of an aggressor, if the defender has reason to believe he/she/they is/are in danger. Self-defense is a common defense by a person accused of assault, battery, or homicide. The force used in self-defense may be sufficient for protection from apparent harm (not just an empty verbal threat) or to halt any danger from attack, [size=16pt]but cannot be an excuse to continue the attack or use excessive force. [/size] Examples: an unarmed man punches Allen Alibi, who hits the attacker with a baseball bat. That is legitimate self-defense, but Alibi cannot chase after the attacker and shoot him or beat him senseless. If the attacker has a gun or a butcher knife and is verbally threatening, Alibi is probably warranted in shooting him. Basically, appropriate self-defense is judged on all the circumstances. Reasonable force can also be used to protect property from theft or destruction. Self-defense cannot include killing or great bodily harm to defend property, unless personal danger is also involved, as is the case in most burglaries, muggings or vandalism. (See: defense, assault, homicide)

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Self-Defense

thank u for adding that part. So this simply means if i use excessive force its no longer self-defence right?

Funny thing is that the so called victim still married him. So what is the point of the suspension and noise then?

Seems to me like she likes it.

Mondisweets: thank u for adding that part. So this simply means if i use excessive force its no longer self-defence right?

You may need a definition for excessive force since you have just found out self defence is not what you taught all along
It is not automatically labelled excessive force because someone died.in self defence people can die and there are tens of thousands of cases you could read as examples where this happened so I am not saying this for argument sake
The example in the definition I gave you is a perfect example
A man punches another who then hits him with a baseball bat ( which can kill)
The prosecutor can argue the force was excessive which is often the case in instances of death where self defence is used
As long as defense attorney can prove their client's life was in danger,that is often enough.

Going back to this case,this man didn't use anything beyond his hands

In fact if the man had struck her first and she produced a gun and shot him dead in that elevator she will most likely go free also because he is man and they are in an enclosure where she couldn't escape

Babymama1:

You may need a definition for excessive force since you have just found out self defence is not what you taught all along
It is not labelled excessive force because someone died
The prosecutor attorney can argue the force was excessive which is often the case in instances if death where self defence is used
As long as defence can prove their client's life was in danger,that is often enough

Going back to this case,this man didn't use anything beyond his hands

In fact if the man had struck her first and she produced a gun and shot him in that elevator she will most likely go free also because he is man and they are in an enclosure where she couldn't escape

the definition you gave me is the same definition in my Black's law dictionary, im pretty sure i know that if someone slaps you or pushes you, it will constitute as excessive force when you punch them to the extent that the person blacks out and then continue to drag the unconscious person out of an elevator. This doesn't require a primary school certificate.
If he had slapped her or hit without making her black out, it would be a different issue

Mondisweets: the definition you gave me is the same definition in my Black's law dictionary, im pretty sure i know that if someone slaps you or pushes you, it will constitute as excessive force when you punch them to the extent that the person blacks out and then continue to drag the unconscious person out of an elevator. This doesn't require a primary school certificate

Don't tell me you are in law school and making this type of argument

How about the part about punching the man who in turn retaliates with a baseball bat and that was self defence
You saw that one didn't you?
By your argument the baseball bat must not kill the man
Says who?

I didn't see a man dragging an unconscious person
I saw a man attempt to get her out of the elevator

Babymama1:

How about the part about punching the man who retaliated with a baseball bat
You saw that one didn't you?
By your argument the baseball bat must not kill the man
Says who?

I didn't see a man dragging a nuns ions person
I saw a man attempt to get her out of the elevator

are'nt you the same person who said you shouldn't use "one rule to fit all situations" now u want to compare a scenario where someone uses a weapon to a scenario where someone uses his physical force directly is that not trying to make one rule fit all situations?

Everyone always think they make better arguments that people in the legal field, but then it always explains why they probably wouldnt make it into law school even if they were given a chance to attempt getting into law school

Mondisweets: are'nt you the same person who said you shouldn't use "one rule to fit all situations" now u want to compare a scenario where someone uses a weapon to a scenario where someone uses his physical force directly is that not trying to make one rule fit all situations?

I used that to tell you that murder is not the charge just because there is a dead body which is your take
You asked which one will kill faster,a stick or a gun
That clearly tells me you didn't understand what constituted self defence till I posted the definition

You can continue to argue sha,I went this length for the sake of others who may be reading

There was a lady who was disoriented from a car accident and went banging on the door of a home owner for help at night,he feared it could be a robber and he shot through his door and killed her
He didn't spend one day in jail because he proved that he feared for his life

Babymama1:

Here in the USA it is self defense
If you come at me with a tree branch,and I bring out a pistol to cut you down,it is self defense

This case more so
First of all they were in an enclosed space ,he couldn't run
She used her hands,he used his hands

Rotflmao. Self defense? That is not self defense. He followed her and in the elevator he actually started the fight again. That is self defense. In no court of law is that self defense. Charges have been filed. If he was defending himself no charges will be filed. There's a tape to prove that it was not self defense. The NFL would have defended him yo the end had that tape not come out. There's no self defense here.

soulglo:


Rotflmao. Self defense? That is not self defense. He followed her and in the elevator he actually started the fight again. That is self defense. In no court of law is that self defense. Charges have been filed. If he was defending himself no charges will be filed. There's a tape to prove that it was not self defense. The NFL would have defended him yo the end had that tape not come out. There's no self defense here.

The NFL defending him?
Hahahahaha
A business entity that has a name to protect
They don't care about him,they care about the money he makes for them and there are plenty out there that can do it without causing the team headaches or a bad name

Did we watch the same clip?

soulglo:


Rotflmao. Self defense? That is not self defense. He followed her and in the elevator he actually started the fight again. That is self defense. In no court of law is that self defense. Charges have been filed. If he was defending himself no charges will be filed. There's a tape to prove that it was not self defense. The NFL would have defended him yo the end had that tape not come out. There's no self defense here.

Biko, abeg agree to disagree. Its not like it matters if i punch u to the extent that u cant defend yourself... I can as well continue and drag u while you are unconscious as a bonus and scream self-defence

Mondisweets: that was not in any way self-defence. Self-defence is when you apply force in order to prevent an immediately threatening or on-going attack in order to stop it or prevent it WITHIN REASONABLE LIMITS. If you slap me and i decided to throw acid on your face i can never ever use my action as a defence, it will simply be assault with intent to do griveous bodily harm that's it. But if i simply slap u back or i block u from any other possible attack by holding your hand tights behind your back that will be defence

If you slapped me and there happens to be a bottle of acid within my reach and I throw it at you,that can qualify for self defence
But if I walk away and return with acid,it isn't

Babymama1:

If you slapped me and there happens to be a bottle of acid within my reach and I throw it at you,that can qualify for self defence
But if I walk away and return with acid,it isn't

Where u are tied somewhere and the acid is the only thing u can reach at throw at me to stop me from attacking you again, maybe... In a case where you are free and u can also use your hands to slap be back or tie me down, without exceeding reasonable limits (to stop or prevent the attack)no!

Before you can use self-defence u have to prove that it was the only remedy u had or it was the only action a reasonable person in shoes would have taken too

In the scenario u gave me, u will have to consider the following from the victim and the attacker;
-Age
-Physical appearance
-Personalities
-Experience
-Surrounding circumstances
-Could the victim easily evade the attack before it took place?
-Was this happening for the first time or not?
-What else could had triggered the perpetrator to attack the victim or vice versa?

Babymama1:

The NFL defending him?
Hahahahaha
A business entity that has a name to protect
They don't care about him,they care about the money he makes for them and there are plenty out there that can do it without causing the team headaches or a bad name

Did we watch the same clip?

Ok maybe you have not been following this case and since I have let me fill you in. His coach publicly said Ray Rice was a good person after the initial news. They all rallied around him and tried to downplay it. UNTIL THE TAPE CAME OUT. The man got a two game suspension and a pat in the back. In the coach's defense he probably did not see the tape. Can't say the same for the team and NFL lawyers. They protected their investment until he became a liability. He only became one when the tape came out. So as hard as it is for you to swallow in the court of public opinion and as far as the law is concerned he committed a chargeable offense.

As for if we watched the same clip. I'm starting to think we did not because aside from the part where she was walking past him and flung out her arm(possible hit him) outside the elevator he followed her in to assault her. When they were still standing by the door and she kept the door open he went for her and if you watch feh immediately flung her arms out and then he stepped back but she went back and got knocked out. Go watch again. I'm not sure were we've gotten as a society were we think that knocking someone unconscious and dragging them is justifiable

I don't care much about them anyway
Never heard their names till today
They are now married so she doesn't see him as a threat and now he is out of work,when the money dries up, she will leave him
End of story

soulglo:


Rotflmao. Self defense? That is not self defense. He followed her and in the elevator he actually started the fight again. That is self defense. In no court of law is that self defense. Charges have been filed. If he was defending himself no charges will be filed. There's a tape to prove that it was not self defense. The NFL would have defended him yo the end had that tape not come out. There's no self defense here.

soulglo:


Ok maybe you have not been following this case and since I have let me fill you in. His coach publicly said Ray Rice was a good person after the initial news. They all rallied around him and tried to downplay it. UNTIL THE TAPE CAME OUT. The man got a two game suspension and a pat in the back. In the coach's defense he probably did not see the tape. Can't say the same for the team and NFL lawyers. They protected their investment until he became a liability. He only became one when the tape came out. So as hard as it is for you to swallow in the court of public opinion and as far as the law is concerned he committed a chargeable offense.

As for if we watched the same clip. I'm starting to think we did not because aside from the part where she was walking past him and flung out her arm(possible hit him) outside the elevator he followed her in to assault her. When they were still standing by the door and she kept the door open he went for her and if you watch feh immediately flung her arms out and then he stepped back but she went back and got knocked out. Go watch again. I'm not sure were we've gotten as a society were we think that knocking someone unconscious and dragging them is justifiable

You must have seen a different video

Mondisweets:
That guy was never denied a second chance he can always try out another team. Its not like he was banned from playing football for the rest of his life.
Well we all have made mistakes in this life, that have changed our lives. He made one that messed up his career.
He was never denied the right to make the right decision. He decided to use behind to think and shittt happened.

Nah, currently, he has been cut, with $10 million at stake and a lot of bonuses. And also suspended indefinitely by the NFL. Apparently, that the $4million he was meant to make this season, out of the window. Coupled with the fact that he's a running back, and at age 27 for RBs, he has only 3-4 years left in his NFL lifespan. Most RBs don't last longer than age 30-31.

The lady in question also got married to him after the incident, so she basically knows better than the rest of us judging based on a video that only showed one side of the story. We're all humans and we all make mistakes...and you and I aren't about mistakes. From what I saw in that video, his emotions got the best of him, and he doesn't look like a serial woman beater, especially once you analyse how he restrained himself when the lady smacked him in public view. Not a lot of guys can allow that to happen, especially young male millionaires with massive egos.

soulglo:
I just love how they scream feminist up and down when it suits them. Shymexx even claims that he lovingly dragged her face down out of the elevator. I almost threw up just watching that thing

You almost threw up because you hate the truth and you're a spin merchant, who likes to twist facts to suit your own fantasies. If he were to drag her, he would've done that by dragging her with one hand. He tried to lift her, but couldn't. That's perhaps because he was intoxicated - coupled with the fact that unconscious people are always heavier. Just as how heavy dead people are always heavier.

I see you ignored the fact that he called for help because as soon as he got out of the elevator, people came down to help. Honestly, with every spin you put on this story, the little respect I have for you goes further down. What do you lot stand to gain in destroying the life of a decent black man, who isn't a criminal, and has been able to make something out of his life, by using his talent to bring entertainment to people's homes?

soulglo:

The feeling is mutual. You are a domestic violence apologist. How else could you refer to what he did as reflex. You mentioned that in more than one post. You're a smart guy so you know the definition of reflex. To use it in describing what this maniac did makes you a domestic violence apologist. If she shoved him and he shoved her back no one would be talking.

Yeah, I'm a domestic violence apologist because I'm objective and I've decided to judge the event based on the evidence provided, and not the political correctness of the MSM - and your own spin, no? Keep living in fool's paradise! Can't you see that, ileobatojo, the Chief feminist(based on a few of her posts that I've read) doesn't agree with your spin? Basically, it shows you're on your own - isolated and lonely with your spin - straight face.

Everything isn't domestic violence. Accepted he did use excessive force against her (not because he hit her hard, but because he's obviously more powerful and he's a trained physical specimen) and that's unacceptable. However, he didn't provoke the attack, and also didn't intentionally decide to attack her. And after she got knocked unconscious, the guilt was there - hence his reason for staying back. A maniac would've left her for dead in there, and run away - but he didn't do that. So, why the unnecessary spin?

Obviously, from your comment on this thread, you must have been a victim of abusive relationship(s) in the past. And I believe that has beclouded your judgement. You just need to take a deep breath - inhale and exhale some oxygen - and get some ice cubes to calm you down. Then come back with a more factual response, based on the evidence(s) in the video devoid of emotional sentiments/spin induced by your past. I honestly don't want to throw you in a box, with certain air-headed myopic clowns on these sides, with harebrained opinions. You can still salvage it, mate.

shymexx: Personally, I think any guy that beats a woman/lady is a coward. However, women also need learn how to control their hands and emotions, so as to avoid provoking subconscious reflex actions/retaliations. It's human to defend yourself against any attack. But I think men need to try as much as possible to always endeavour to put a lid on whatever might provoke them, to retaliate against vicious physical attacks by women/ladies.

Also, in as much as we live in a "modern" world where equality hold sway - men are always going to be physically more powerful than women. From the video: the woman in question viciously attacked Ray Rice more than once, before his reflexes acted based on defend yourself at all times. And I feel sorry for the woman, but I can neither judge nor blame him for what he did. Sometimes, once you're over the limit - reacting to an action just becomes inevitable.

she attacked him first - punch was well deserved. if she thought he was wrong, why did she later marry him?

he should fly down to england - saracens would hire him as a rugby player and he can start life all over again in another country.

- This debate has nothing to do with feminism.
- Please keep my name out of your venomous posts. Thanks.

Hitting a woman no matter what is not worth it. Now a million dollars career gone down the drain . He should have pressed the emergency button to get out or push the next available floor button...just my idea. Also when she passed out, he should have acted more loving. What I saw was like someone lifting a ragged doll.
She will dump him soon (hope not), write a tell it all book and live happily ever after. I hope he use the little million/thousand dollars left to finish college and work like real people.

Inconsequential dolt feeling funky. I don't care about your indecipherable handle nor your harebrained and half-baked opinions. Just cited your name to buttress my point, to a next poster. Go play with ya mates.

coogar:
she attacked him first - punch was well deserved. if she thought he was wrong, why did she later marry him?

he should fly down to england - saracens would hire him as a rugby player and he can start life all over again in another country.

Rugby is entirely a different scheme from NFL, hence you don't really see players switch between the two sports - the transition isn't that easy. It's like saying if you can play basketball, then you should be able to play netball - or cricket and baseball. Coupled with the fact that Rugby players don't really make that much.

Anyway, the lady in question knew what she did, hence she married him after the ugly incident. However, the public led by the MSM and women right groups a la feminists are the ones crying more than the bereaved, with the way they've swayed public opinion, about an incident that was more of self-defense though condemnable. They also got a sport analyst, Stephen A. Smith, suspended for two weeks, for this same incident And his sin: he said, "women should stop provoking attack(s)." That's the kind of power these folks have in today's world.

Don't spoil your thread now...let the past go.
Shymexx, come for some spicy wings and some conc baileys.

He overreacted... His body language after the attack suggests he didn't expect her to hit the rail and pass out.

As for self-defense, errmm anyone remember how Jay Z stretched out his hand outward to keep a visibly smaller and weaker woman from coming close to him? That would have been a better option for Ray.

I think the thing with his hand to her face (looks more like a slap than a fisted punch though) was overkill.

If a woman was coming at me only with her hands, blocking her access or restraining her with my stronger arm is first option...not taking a swing at her face, unless I was already mad and wanted to hit her.

shymexx:
Rugby is entirely a different scheme from NFL, hence you don't really see players switch between the two sports - the transition isn't that easy. It's like saying if you can play basketball, then you should be able to play netball - or cricket and baseball. Coupled with the fact that Rugby players don't really make that much.

that luxury of choice has been taken away from him. no other football club would sign him in the US.....what's the point staying there & being the object of ridicule. someone might even decide to press charges against him for hitting a woman.....

Anyway, the lady in question knew what she did, hence she married him after the ugly incident. However, the public led by the MSM and women right groups a la feminists are the ones crying more than the bereaved, with the way they've swayed public opinion, about an incident that was more of self-defense though condemnable. They also got a sport analyst, Stephen A. Smith, suspended for two weeks, for this same incident And his sin: he said, "women should stop provoking attack(s)." That's the kind of power these folks have in today's world.

she married his multi-million dollar contract. if he was a handyman, there's no way she woulda married him after getting socked & dragged out like a bag of rice.

in few years, she would leave him & hop on the newest kid on the block with the fattest contract. he needs a change of scene - he could join hollywood as well.