You said:Now we're talking.
Response: Care to re-read 1st and 4th post above again? I provided a background from the very start.

You said:There are specific tests that one needs to do to check if brake fluid needs to be changed, not the hand wringing old wives scare tactics.
Response: not everyone knows. not everyone will research. This forum gives a chance to even the scales between those who know and those who don't. Sometimes its easier to follow through on something important when we know why its important instead of just when someone up there which might include a parent in the case of kids, and a manufacturer in the case of a car says something should be done.

You said:Sure, manufacturers have specific recommendations for owners to do so that stuff don't break and you have a warranty claim. It's that simple.
Response: Not everyone reads their manual, stories like this are meant to provide a reason why they should, and should take preventive maintenance seriously. if even only one person opens up their manual to read up on brake servicing, I have been a grand success.

You said:If someone makes one panic stop and suffers total break failure then it is not due to brake fluid life but an overall lack of maintenance of the brake system as a whole.
Response:Seriously? Well not necessarily. Is that what happened in the 5th post above? Would a racing team go to a race in a vehicle whose brakes are not maintained? Am sure you know there are other variables, like driving like one is on the track with stock brakes on the road? Or several severe braking sessions that overheat and overwhelm a stock braking system? etc? You should not be dogmatic on that also.Am sure you will agree that I shouldn't take that as gospel like you didn't take my posts as gospel? I am already in trouble with friends and family for elevating my cars to the status of a first class girlfriend and according her financial privileges and time befitting that status, would I then skimp on my brakes? Hahaha. I spend a fortune importing OEM/aftermarket parts because only the best will do.

You said:It's good to share information and for us to discuss stuff but just because someone posts something doesn't mean that it will be taken as a bible. Some of us have been around cars longer than some have been alive.
Response: No contest. That's what you do from time to time and I am also doing for the good of mankind.

IdaraCHODB: You said:Now we're talking.
Response: Care to re-read 1st and 4th post above again? I provided a background from the very start.

You said:There are specific tests that one needs to do to check if brake fluid needs to be changed, not the hand wringing old wives scare tactics.
Response: not everyone knows. not everyone will research. This forum gives a chance to even the scales between those who know and those who don't. Sometimes its easier to follow through on something important when we know why its important instead of just when someone up there which might include a parent in the case of kids, and a manufacturer in the case of a car says something should be done.

You said:Sure, manufacturers have specific recommendations for owners to do so that stuff don't break and you have a warranty claim. It's that simple.
Response: Not everyone reads their manual, stories like this are meant to provide a reason why they should, and should take preventive maintenance seriously. if even only one person opens up their manual to read up on brake servicing, I have been a grand success.

You said:If someone makes one panic stop and suffers total break failure then it is not due to brake fluid life but an overall lack of maintenance of the brake system as a whole.
Response:Seriously? Well not necessarily. Is that what happened in the 5th post above? Would a racing team go to a race in a vehicle whose brakes are not maintained? Am sure you know there are other variables, like driving like one is on the track with stock brakes on the road? Or several severe braking sessions that overheat and overwhelm a stock braking system? etc? You should not be dogmatic on that also.Am sure you will agree that I shouldn't take that as gospel like you didn't take my posts as gospel? I am already in trouble with friends and family for elevating my cars to the status of a first class girlfriend and according her financial privileges and time befitting that status, would I then skimp on my brakes? Hahaha. I spend a fortune importing OEM/aftermarket parts because only the best will do.

You said:It's good to share information and for us to discuss stuff but just because someone posts something doesn't mean that it will be taken as a bible. Some of us have been around cars longer than some have been alive.
Response: No contest. That's what you do from time to time and I am also doing for the good of mankind.

You're barking up the wrong tree.

This forum is for sharing automotive ideas and having discussion on it.

If you post something that I think is wrong and misleading I will call you out on it and I did.

Your individual situation, not knowing how you maintain your vehicle, if you do any preventative maintenance at all, which led to your situation is not the norm for most people.

I continue to call it old wives tale. Show me a car that had the brakes fail because they did not flush their brake fluid.

I'm not going to argue with you about racing condition because frankly that is lame to compare a street car to a race car.

We have safety checks performed by track staff to make sure that all cars racing pass the safety tests.

Have you ever raced on a closed course in SCCA before?

Have you ever raced in Laguna Seca before?

Have you ever raced and spun out at 100mph in Willow Springs before?

Well I have so please don't preach to me about racing conditions.

If you want to flush your oil at specific intervals then do so but don't make it sound as if everyone that is not doing so is risking lit sand limb of themselves or the unsuspecting public at large.

On your brakes that afield when was the last time you spec'd your brake discs and drums if any?

What type of pads/discs are you using? Is it the cheapest one that you found at ladipo or you specifically sort out at the least the minimum OEM replacement?

Like I said there is more to an automotive braking system than just flushing out the fluids.

see third line from below courtesy upload from another nler

IdaraCHODB: see third line from below courtesy upload from another nler

Yes it says brake check. It doesn't say brake fluid flush. Brake check to include possibly testing the fluids using proper tools and not just flushing if without just cause.

Oh by the way, that Nairalander is a swashbuckling character - wink.

I think we're talking about 2 different things here.

I have had to comb through my manual in these past days since this thread cropped up.

1. Replace brake fluid: My manual says do this every 3 years independent of mileage
2. Flushing the brake system: This is only recommended when the brake system is contaminated eg you used brake fluids like DOT3 or DOT4 instead of the recommended Heavy duty DOT3.

As such it does not seem to me that flushing the brake system should be a routine maintenance item, but, i guess a lot of brake systems out there are already contaminated by ojoro practices of their owners or mechanics

Piyke: I think we're talking about 2 different things here.

I have had to comb through my manual in these past days since this thread cropped up.

1. Replace brake fluid: My manual says do this every 3 years independent of mileage
2. Flushing the brake system: This is only recommended when the brake system is contaminated eg you used brake fluids like DOT3 or DOT4 instead of the recommended Heavy duty DOT3.

As such it does not seem to me that flushing the brake system should be a routine maintenance item, but, i guess a lot of brake systems out there are already contaminated by ojoro practices of their owners or mechanics

That's what I meant.

I guess I used the wrong expression, I didn't mean a power flush. I used flush in the sense of draining the old and replacing with new as per either manufacturer recommended intervals or because of deterioration over time or whatever, will change the heading of the thread to avoid ambiguity.

Thanks for the observation

IdaraCHODB:

That's what I meant.

I guess I used the wrong expression, I didn't mean a power flush. I used flush in the sense of draining the old and replacing with new as per either manufacturer recommended intervals or because of deterioration over time or whatever, will change the heading of the thread to avoid ambiguity.

Thanks for the observation

Your welcome. Is it possible to change the title of threads Haven't had any luck with that it the times i tried. If you do, please let me know how you did it.

Piyke:

Your welcome. Is it possible to change the title of threads Haven't had any luck with that it the times i tried. If you do, please let me know how you did it.

Provided you are the author of the thread. Go to the very first post, click modify and you will have a chance to change not only the contents of the first post, but also the title of the thread

The title change seems adequate but would have been better if it had been "My Experience With Brake Failure Caused By Boiled Brake Fluid".

But it's okay, we had a good go

On to the next thread.

IdaraCHODB:

Provided you are the author of the thread. Go to the very first post, click modify and you will have a chance to change not only the contents of the first post, but also the title of the thread

Thanks a bunch. learnt something today

Related and relevant to the topic especially comments by @Siena and Somorin1 https://www.nairaland.com/854337/auto-maintenance-issues-how-often

IdaraCHODB:
Related and relevant to the topic especially comments by @Siena and Somorin1 https://www.nairaland.com/854337/auto-maintenance-issues-how-often

That character Somorin#1 and CityNG are actually one and the sam incorrigible element

Listen, I understand what you are saying.

You went through a catastrophic event, I get it. I have never suffered that before because I am fastidious in the upkeep of my cars, I drive my cars purposefully (not abuse) so I tend to check things more than most folks.

I don't follow manufacturers recommendation to the letter, and nether do you.

The advice, original one anyways, that you made encouraging folks to go and get their brake fluids flushed is what I take a position against. I am never against flushing your brake fluids when testing dictates so.

You: Flush your brake fluids as part of service.
Me: Disagree, flush when it's tested as being bad, is compromised.

CityNG

I have the greatest respect for you. Infact for everyone else I interact with, by character, I try very hard not to cause offense, even when offended or taunted or baited to make trouble, I do not retaliate, I just want to set the records straight for posterity. This is no fight for supremacy! If it was I would not quote you because I know and have known for quiet a while that Somorin and CityNG are one and the same.

Siena has built a reputation on Nairaland Car Talk that puts quoting him on the same pedestal as quoting an established authority, so I basically wanted anyone who reads this post in the future to know that checking the status of brake fluid is important, not just because a lesser mortal said it but because every higher mortals think it is.

REPOSTING MY FIRST POST ( EMPHASIS APPLIED WHERE NECESSARY)

I have never ever seen any post here on nairaland recommending that buyers of used cars should include changing the brake fluid as required servicing. I have seen change the transmission oil, engine oil BUT NOT brake fluid although everything points to the fact that brake fluid can degrade over time?

I read a lot about why brake fluid replacement is required servicing several weeks ago but put if off until I actually experienced brake failure (or should I rather say brake fade)?

Needless to say it was scary, it happened 200 miles into a 400 mile journey. When I returned home, I did what I read, i serviced the brakes and replaced the fluid with new.

I used DOT 3 as a temporary measure because I know DOT 5.1 is better ( by the way nairaland speed demons don't keep using DOT 3 when DOT 5.1 has the advantage of very high boiling points, relatively stable viscosity over a wide range of temperatures PLUS all the nifty water-absorbing characteristics of DOT 3.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid#Glycol-based_.28DOT_3.2C_4.2C_5.1.29
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=421463

Please do not use DOT 5 in place of DOT 3, only DOT 5.1 in place of DOT 3.

While replacing engine oil keeps your motor hale and hearty, replacing brake fluid as and when due may very well mean the difference between life and death!

I used the expression FLUSH in the sense Siena used it here in his post of January 27, 2012 at 12:13am:

Brake fluid does NOT need topping up. The level will drop for two reasons only - you've got a leak, or the pads are worn pretty low. As the pads / shoes get thinner, the caliper and brake cylinder pistons extend more. Then the bores will take more brake fluid. If you top up, when new pads are fitted and the pistons are retracted to allow the new pads to fit, the fluid will overflow from the fluid reservoir.

Brake fluid is hygroscopic (meaning it absorbs moisture) so replacement interval is every 24 months. If it's not replaced and the water content gets too high, the fluid boiling point will be lower, no good. Also, the water will corrode the brake system internals - calipers, brake cylinders, brake master cylinders and ABS units will corrode from the inside out.

The same applies to clutch fluid (some models share the same reservoir as the brake). Replacing brake and clutch fluid requires flushing the old fluid through, and bleeding the systems thoroughly. If you're not mechanically-minded, it should be entrusted to a decent garage.

I used the words, change, replace and flush synonymously and in response to Piyke, I explained the sense in which I used the word flush. I even changed the title of the thread due to feedback from others including you!

I am also in IT by the way and that thread I linked to made me know you are also in IT which I did not know about CityNG until I read it this afternoon.

I hope the clears the air and settles the matter once and for all.

IdaraCHODB:
This is no fight for supremacy! .

I don't understand why you would write these as it makes no sense. This is an online forum where everybody has an input.

If anyone makes a claim that I feel is erroneous I will debate it, respectfully and within the TOS of the site. Your original claim of asking everyone to flush their brake fluid is a good example. It's a wasteful effort unless you have tested your fluid and it is subpar, compromised or you suffered a continuous heated brake system.

I don't own NL, I am just a member. I take pride in my automotive skills, no one needs to agree with me on my skills, I acquire them to work on my cars and not to impress anyone.

Your original statement and every statement since then has been opposite of what I know as in regards to maintenance of an automobile when it's related to brake as a system.

This is not a power play but please do not expect me to shy away from what I believe is wrong information.

PS: I am immune to online debacles, so although you stated you do not insult but even if you do I wouldn't care as it would have no effect on me.

For anyone that is still on the fence, here are some good readings.

"Does Brake Fluid Need to Be Changed?

Changing brake fluid can be a slippery subject. Some manufacturers include it in their maintenance schedules and others don't.

Mercedes-Benz, for example, says brake fluid should be replaced every two years or 20,000 miles, and Volkswagen says that should be done on most of its models every two years regardless of mileage. Subaru recommends fresh brake fluid every 30,000 miles.

More Car Maintenance Coverage

On the other hand, most Chevrolets can go 150,000 miles or 10 years, according to Chevy's maintenance schedule, and many Ford, Chrysler and Toyota vehicles don't list brake fluid as a regular maintenance item.

Check your car's owner's manual to see what the manufacturer recommends. You might also want to discuss the slippery subject of brake fluid with a trusted mechanic if the manufacturer doesn't give any guidance. Don't be surprised if a mechanic suggests replacing the brake fluid periodically, because mechanics probably have seen what can happen if you don't.

What can happen? Even though brake fluid dwells in a sealed system it still can absorb moisture over time, and that can lead to corrosion in the brake system. Moisture also lowers the boiling temperature of brake fluid, and that can reduce braking effectiveness in repeated hard stops.

If the manufacturer lists a 10-year interval or none at all for replacing brake fluid, how often should you have it done?

Every two or three years is probably too often, though if it helps you sleep at night, then go for it. Just be aware that some service shops, especially those that make their living by replacing fluids, might try to scare you with dire warnings that disaster is imminent unless you flush all your vehicle's fluids long before it is necessary.

Unless the manufacturer calls for it sooner, we would wait four or five years and have it done at the same time as other brake work, such as replacing pads or rotors. Replacing brake fluid is cheaper than replacing brake lines or a master cylinder that has corroded, so don't automatically dismiss the recommendation of a mechanic as just salesmanship.

And no matter who suggests fresh brake fluid, make sure they're replacing it with the type that is called for by the vehicle manufacturer. Some vehicles require DOT 3 fluid, others a different variety, such as DOT 5, so consult your owner's manual before you give the go ahead."

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2013/12/does-brake-fluid-need-to-be-changed.html

A commentator on that post:

"Steve
Dec 14, 2013 3:00:54 PM
I have a couple of Chevrolets (Silverado and Impala LS) and I replaced both brake fluid in each near 200,000 miles and both were very dirty. No prior leaking issues at all, but I wanted to change it out anyway. Flushed a total of 1 qt. for each vehicle so well worth it. I guess I'm good for another 200,000 miles. Oh yeah!"

So you see, 200,000 miles. You're not going to die if you don't change your brake fluid. But you should if you suspect that you've abused or compromised the system or the fluid fails the specific test.

More..............

" OEM BRAKE FLUID RECOMMENDATIONS

What do the auto makers say about fluid changes? General Motors and Chrysler do not mention brake fluid in their scheduled maintenance recommendations. A General Motors spokesman said Delco Supreme 11 DOT 3 brake fluid contains additives than many other brake fluids do not, so it is essentially a lifetime fluid. Starting in 1993, GM began using a new type of rubber brake hose with an EPM lining and outer jacketing that reduces moisture penetration by 50%. So GM does not consider fluid contamination to be a significant problem.

Ford, for a time, recommended fresh fluid every 36,000 miles or three years, and to replace the fluid each time the brake pads are changed. Currently, however, Ford specifies no specific time or mileage recommendation for changing the brake fluid.

As for Chrysler, the only recommendation they publish is to change the fluid every 24 months on their Sprinter van.

A number of import car makers do recommend brake fluid changes for preventive maintenance at specific time/mileage intervals:
Acura: 36 months
Audi: 24 months
BMW: 24 months, or when indicated by Service Inspection Indicator
Honda: 36 months
Jaguar: 24 months all models except 2009 XF (36 months)
Land Rover: 36 months
Lexus: 36 months or 30,000 miles, which ever comes first
Mercedes-Benz: 24 months
MINI 24 months
Saab: 48 months (all models except 9-7X)
Smart: 24 months or 20,000 miles, which ever comes first
Subaru: 30 months or 30,000 miles (normal service) or 15 months/15,000 miles (severe service)
Suzuki: 24 months or 30,000 miles, which ever comes first (Forenza & Reno), 60 months or 60,000 miles (Grand Vitara and SX4)
Volkswagen: 24 months (New Beetle, City Gold, City Jetta), 36 months (all other models except Routan)
Volvo: 24 months or 37,000 miles (Normal), or 12 months (severe service)

Source for fluid change recommendations: Vehicle Manufacturer service information & owners manuals
If motorists would only follow this simple advice to change their brake fluid periodically, they could greatly reduce the risks associated with moisture-contaminated brake fluid. You can extend the life of your brake system and likely save yourself a lot of money in the long run on grake repairs, especially if your vehicle is equipped with ABS (because ABS modulators are very expensive to replace!)."

Idara,

You are friend and I am going to tell this. I don't see why you should apologise when you are absolutely right and no one has proved you wrong. What matters is " what is right", and that's what you have said in this your thread. There is no one that says the truth and the world won't come after that person. Its left for the person to stand on his/her 2 feet to speak what is right or get himself intimidated by the world. In fact, Randy Gage once said, " You can't do anything meaningful without scaring some or offending others. In fact, if you are not facing criticisms or even attracting few haters, you can be sure you are not doing something right".

When a manufacturer instructs you replace your engine oil every 6 months, it doesn't mean the engine will knock on the 7th month, if you extend it beyond the recommended change interval. When a manufacturer recommends timing belt replacement every 60 or 80k km, it doesn't mean the belt must break on 90k mileage. The same way, when a car manufacturer recommends renewal of brake fluid every 2 years, it doesn't mean the brake will fail the 3rd year if not renewed. All the manufacturer is saying is, if you wish your engine and these systems to be trouble-free, do as they instructed or recommended. Like I said, its simple, "if you wished to". No manufacturer comes to your house to sue you for not renewing your engine oil every 6 months as instructed. But the manufacturer will not change that engine for you free during warranty period if the engine fail and if you had refused to keep to instruction.

The other day, someone ignored replacing his timing belt when it was due. On a highway, while overtaking a long truck, on single lane, the engine went off, halfway or in the middle of the truck. He couldn't brake to draw and move back behind the truck, because the brake pedal had become very hard to depress. The steering had become stiff. Right then, another truck was coming right in front of him, to smash him and the car to pieces. He had no choice than to swerve off the road on the other side of the road. Luckily, there was no pedestrian on the side road. He would have either killed himself or innocent pedestrians for choosing to do the wrong thing, "not replacing the belt when he ought to". It was when he towed the vehicle to town that they discovered it was the timing belt that broke while he was overtaken the truck. Like I said in my previous. Life is about choices. You can choose to endanger your life or innocent life, if you wished to, because Nairaland knows better than your car manufacturer.

The same way, you can choose not to renew your Power assisted steering fluid, synthetic or not synthetic, when asked by manufacturer to do so every certain years. But I bet you, time will come when the steering will become harder to steer, which may hinder the lifespan of the pump or damage the rack seals. Its your car, its your choice.


The summary, the least a manufacture will do is advice you to change this or do this on this car or system at every certain mileage or years, if you really want to enjoy the car and "if you wished to". Not everyone survives accidents to come and tell the world what could have caused it, what happened, was sudden brake failure the cause, etc.

Whether you keep to instructions on the manual or not is irrelevant to this topic, what matters here is, "What is right thing to do to your brake system, as recommended by your car manufacturer?". What one choose to do with the instructions on the manuals is ones personal business.

Hey! Idara. I met with our mutual friend yesterday and we spent a quality time. We are good.

Ikenna

Has anyone upgraded his brake fluid from DOT 3 to DOT 5.1?

Any perceivable difference? I mean that which you can feel from the driver's seat?