So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? - Religion (2) - Nairaland
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| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by tintingz(m): 10:19pm On Sep 13, 2014 |
lanrexlan: Ha,my dearest brother tintingz.I have been busy with my academics.How're you doing dear brother and how's kinkingz tooI and my twin(kinkingz like you called him  ) are doing fine, thanks.Welcome brother.  Rilwayne001:Oga Rilee, Weldon o 2 Likes |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by Rilwayne001: 10:24pm On Sep 13, 2014 |
tintingz: I and my twin(kinkingz like you called him Top of the evening to you sire .Trust all is fine with you sire 1 Like |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by tbaba12345: 10:27pm On Sep 13, 2014 |
There are twins in my family too.... My parent had twins before me. I have cousins that are twins as well. |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by logicboy01: 11:38pm On Sep 13, 2014 |
Lol! The op gets called out on his BS Op then proceeds to derail his own thread to avoid dealing with criticism  |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by logicboy01: 11:39pm On Sep 13, 2014 |
^^^ Funny how they are limited outside the islam section |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by tbaba12345: 11:47pm On Sep 13, 2014 |
Kay17: @tb1234 What I am saying is that if God does not exist then there are NO objective moral values. Moral values such as “Murdering innocent people for entertainment is wrong” and “Defending the innocent is good” are merely social conventions without God. God is the only concept that transcends our subjectivity. Today doing x might be considered wrong, tomorrow it is considered right. There is no objective right or wrong as it is dependent on the social conditions. With God, there is an objective anchor for right and wrong. |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by logicboy01: 12:12am On Sep 14, 2014 |
^^^ Guilty conscience (from my accusation) forces op to come back and address criticism after ignoring it at first. #power of suggestion |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by logicboy01: 1:41am On Sep 14, 2014 |
tbaba12345: 1/10. Fail Just like Kay17 said, the idea of objectivity is that objective values remain objective on their own, without the need of an outside moral agent. God is not necessary for 1 + 1 = 2. It remains true whether God exists or not. Same with murder (killing a person for no reason); it remains objectively evil because it is detrimental to the victim and society at large if let people die anyhow. It even becomes worse when you consider that your belief in God is subjective- based on faith and not facts. If we asked 100 muslims to describe God, we would get 100 different descriptions because there is no objective fact or evidence for God. Yes, your belief in God is highly subjective and as such, you cant claim any objectivity (including an objective morality) with God. If you do not believe that your belief in God is subjective, then ask yourself why there is no objective consensus over things that are halal/haram in islam. Even your imam would have a far different understanding of what God forbids/accepts from you. 2 Likes |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by tbaba12345: 5:45am On Sep 14, 2014 |
logicboy01: Yet societies have deemed it ok to murder others, How is that an objective value? Societies deemed it ok to burn people on stakes or kill a certain race. It is subject to societal conventions. What I mean by objective is something that is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts, and not dependent on the mind for existence. God is the only concept that transcends that subjectivity. With God, these values remain constant and does not depend on human prejudices. And if you asked 100 muslims about God, there is a very Good chance that you will get the same answers in over 90% of cases as God is defined clearly in the Quran. |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by RayMcBlue(m): 6:14am On Sep 14, 2014 |
tbaba12345: I believe in these two sayings: -"There is no white. There is no black. There are only different shades of grey." -"The world is what you believe it to be." Hitler slaughtered thousands of Jews. So many people were killed, families destroyed, people were marked as unfit to live not for what they've done, but just because they were born in a certain family. So can we call him evil. Maybe to Hitler, the killing of Jews was a way of cleaning up the Earth. He might have considered Jews to be the black filth that made the wonderful white world a dirtier place to live in. So he might have considered himself to be a God and went ahead to clean up the Earth. My point is that any action can be called good from a certain perspective, and bad from another |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by RayMcBlue(m): 6:25am On Sep 14, 2014 |
tbaba12345: Good and Evil are human perceptions. You will notice that definitions of what is good and what is evil will vary form culture to culture; sometimes the gap is so deep, that what one culture sees as a virtue will be deemed deadly immoral by another. You can answer the question yourself by observing the world outside human culture/society - is it evil for a lioness to kill in order to feed her brood? When a female black widow spider kills her mate after sex, it's not evil... she just do it. It is necessary, no more, no less. For example, some Muslims believe that it is "GOOD" and acceptable for a woman to marry as young as 9 years old, IF she has reached puberty, whereas here in the Western World, even IF a 9 year old has reached puberty (which I would assume is quite rare), she is STILL a child and NOT old enough to be married. Any man who would even CONSIDER marrying a 9 year old would be himself considered an "EVIL" craddle-robber. |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by tbaba12345: 6:58am On Sep 14, 2014 |
RayMcBlue: Exactly, my point ... Human subjectivity at play. God is the only concept that transcends human subjectivity. Without God, there is no objective good or evil |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by RayMcBlue(m): 7:24am On Sep 14, 2014 |
tbaba12345: Even if they are choices, who ultimately decides what is good and what is evil? If God Himself is real, which I can't believe while I am awake, then we have the Good Book to tell us what is right and what is wrong. Otherwise we have our intuition, reason, and record. |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by Kay17: 7:39am On Sep 14, 2014 |
tbaba12345: Rayblue was merely highlighting his view, my concern is how objective moral facts stand on their own. Regardless of what societies do and what names/labels they use for their action. The problem with your argument is that God is your moral agent, hence the veil of objectivity is removed. 1 Like |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by logicboy01: 7:48am On Sep 14, 2014 |
tbaba12345: Human beings are not always objective and naturally, their societies will follow. However, after the age of enlightenment, we have become rapidly better at making objective laws for our societies. Since this argument is a wide topic, I will enumerate the various failings of your points for more organisation; 1) You claim that human societies have deemed murdering people to be okay and so they arent very objective. Ironically, it has been the islamic societies that have been at the forefront of irrationality, backwardness and death. Sharia law has not made any single society more peaceful, more woman-friendly, more developed. PROOF; the 10 least peaceful countries, 10 least women-friendly countries and 10 least developed countries are majorly islamic while the ones at the top are all secular. 2) God does not transcend subjectivity. You can not prove that. For argument sake, let us agree that God is 100% objective, that would still be a problem because the humans listening to him are not 100% objective -Imagine God (Allah) is Iphone 5 and we humans are Iphone 1. God (Allah) then gives us the perfect software (the Quran). That software (Quran) would be useless/subjective because our operating systems (brains) can not process the data/information (religious laws) in the software (Quran)- the software (Quran) is too advanced for our operating systems (brain) but we understand the basic coding since we are of the same image (sofware company- Apple) 3) No one knows what Allah looks like. No one agrees on the list of halal things. There are muslims who agree that bats are halal. Shia vs Sunni vs Quranists vs Ahmadiyyah vs Wahabbists etc. The Quran is written in a confusing manner; almost all humanists will define humanism as stated in the humanist manifesto equally but then, your muslims will define islam differently from the same Quran. Point- Allah isnt clearly defined in the Quran; muslims are divided over what he wants. Some even fight for him as if he cant defend himself 1 Like |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by tbaba12345: 7:52am On Sep 14, 2014 |
RayMcBlue: Our Intuition, reason and logic keep shifting the borders of what is good or evil. It is all subjective. The point is there is no objective good without God. It depends on societal conventions which keep changing. So today, it is good, tomorrow, it is evil. |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by logicboy01: 7:56am On Sep 14, 2014 |
tbaba12345: That is unavoidable. Morality must change as we learn new things. Even with the Quran. Flogging adulterers was okay in islamic societies in the past as prescribed with the Quran. Today, many muslim apologists like yourself dodge the issue as if it is no more relevant because it makes no sense 1 Like |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by RayMcBlue(m): 8:14am On Sep 14, 2014 |
tbaba12345:The huge pothole in your assertions is the consistent usage of "God" as your moral compass, thereby, hurting the credibility of your objectivity. Let's define Evil (operationally) as the wish to harm mankind either individually or collectively. If you accept this definition, not only does evil exist but it's all over the place. Okay, but let's refine that. 1) Is merely a 'wish' evil, or does it require action? 2) What about harming one to save several? 3) Which brings us back to (1), because, while you can "wish" to save both the individual AND the several, in reality, inaction will lead to more deaths. You must act. Now, is choosing to harm one, evil? Cops take deliberate action to harm individuals. Clearly, the definition requires more subtlety. This is where intuition, logic and reason take precedence. 1 Like |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by tbaba12345: 8:16am On Sep 14, 2014 |
logicboy01: Dodge issue?? I believe in the dictates of the sharia. Most muslim do. Fornication for instance was considered wrong in almost all societies, now many societies say consensual intercourse is ok. Shifting the goal post all the time. Without God there is no rational basis for objective morality. Every other thing How can you formulate an argument against the existence of God using evil in the world when God is required as an objective basis for the formulation of the argument in the first place? Otherwise, what is evil? |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by tbaba12345: 8:18am On Sep 14, 2014 |
RayMcBlue: Can you give me any other concept apart from the 'God concept' that transcends human subjectivity? |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by RayMcBlue(m): 8:24am On Sep 14, 2014 |
tbaba12345: There are no right or wrong, just the consequences of your action, period. 2 Likes |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by tbaba12345: 2:38pm On Sep 14, 2014 |
RayMcBlue: Meaning you have no objective sense of what is evil, yet you tried building an argument against God based on that. What you have are social conventions that change with time. So it is evil today, it is great tomorrow. Like i said before, it is ludicrous for you to have come up with that argument in the first place. |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by RayMcBlue(m): 3:20pm On Sep 14, 2014 |
tbaba12345: Not really. 'TIS a complex topic. The problem is, how to say good is really good and bad is really bad. In my earlier posts I have mentioned the higher thoughts, and I have mentioned some examples. The world we are living in teaches us about good and evil. Now can we just throw away all years of this teaching. It is impossible. What I'm trying to say, is that good and evil is only of cultural and belief derivation. The whole thing is a mirror of the human nature. |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by logicboy01: 4:36pm On Sep 14, 2014 |
tbaba12345: Your sentence in bold makes no sense; God is not required to formulate any argument. You just pulled that out of thin air. I hate having this argument with religious people. They cant argue morality without missing their obvious hypocrisy. Your prophet had over 10 wives and yet, you have the nerve to lecture other societies on fornication and adultery? In the eyes of the modern western world, your prophet is deemed a serial adulterer. |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by tbaba12345: 4:43pm On Sep 14, 2014 |
RayMcBlue: It isn't complex. You are reaffirming my position. What you have presented is not objective, a atheist can not present an objective basis for morality. Hence, his values of morality are based on his societal influences and prejudices which changes over time. There is only one concept that transcends that human subjectivity. You talk about human nature, this is an interesting concept because the best explanation for our consciousness and nature is God. As a muslim, i do believe all humans have inherent good (called the fitrah in Islam) but its manifestation is affected on environmental factors. For you, there are no objective good because you need an anchor that is not based on human subjectivity. I can expand on the concept that human consciousness is best explained by God if you want. |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by Kay17: 5:45pm On Sep 14, 2014 |
tbaba12345: Let me help you out. Moral facts that are commandments are subjective projections of the maker, they are creations in the mind of the maker. By that its nature, it subjective. On the other hand, object moral facts such as categorical imperative are unwritten and most importantly uncreated. They are facts, because they exist ex debit justitae. So whenever you talk about objective moral facts, think of Immanuel Kant's Categorical Imperative. |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by tbaba12345: 5:55pm On Sep 14, 2014 |
Kay17: Irrational. An atheist can not make this claim because he has no concept of God. As a muslim, i understand that God has full knowledge that is not contingent on time and he understands our natures completely. Therefore, His judgements are made on complete knowledge not constantly changing social systems. |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by RayMcBlue(m): 5:56pm On Sep 14, 2014 |
tbaba12345:^^Bollocks. There is no clear definition of good or evil in the real world. What you call Unnatural sex between two people of the same gender is quite natural to the perpetrators. Dolphins practise gay sex all the time, yet you don't see anybody judging them. What you may call taboo or Inbreeding is nothing but expression of love between siblings or Parents and offsprings accordingly. Infact, Chimpanzees are notorious for their incestious relationships, and Dogs too. Yet people still keep them as pets. The point I'm trying to make is that, when it comes to morality, the definition of the terms, Good and Evil, becomes blurry. tbaba12345:^^You're not seeing the bigger picture... An opposing side is generally seen as evil, and whoever rises above their enemies becomes the good guy just because they are more powerful and their ways are more understood, like in WWII all the German soldiers would not have fought so hard and risked life and limb like that thinking they were the bad guys! Which begs another question: "Do the Bad guys know they are the bad guys or are they only bad if they lose?" All I'm saying is that plenty of things you see as evil or bad things are very well ordered. I think history shows that in their perverse logic, the Nazis thought they were doing good for the German people. We judge that logic as madness but in itself it was ordered. In a cold logical sense, we should eliminate 60% of the Earth's surplus population because there's not enough resources to go around. Obviously, it can be interpreted as an evil idea but in a world divorced from absolutes it makes perfect sense. tbaba12345: Like I said earlier, Bollocks. My curiosity is piqued all the same. Let's see what you got. |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by logicboy01: 6:06pm On Sep 14, 2014 |
tbaba12345: God has nothing to do with morality. I will repeat again- Islam practiced during the time of the prophet has changed and is different from what we have now. Are you going to try to charge jizyah nowadays, Tbaba? Are you going to argue for flogging of adulterers nowadays, Taba? Even your so called perfect religion of islam changes. |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by tbaba12345: 9:54pm On Sep 14, 2014 |
RayMcBlue: Your whole essay prove my point... Also you are incorrect in one area, there is enough food on the planet to feed everyone on it. The problem is not lack of food, the problem is its distribution. This video explains it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGra85DWWNA#t=108 But it is becoming repetitive. Let's move to another topic, consciousness I appreciate the fact that you are willing to engage and have civil discussions, some of your friends here are really not worth the trouble. I introduce you to the hard problem of consciousness. There are areas of consciousness that lie outside the scientific method, e.g the inner subjective experience. What does it mean to be RayMcBlue eating a sandwich? Professor Koch explains: Well, let’s first forget about the real difficult aspects, like subjective feelings, because they may not have a scientific solution. The subjective state of play, of pain, of pleasure, of seeing blue, of smelling a rose--there seems to be a huge jump between the materialistic level, of explaining molecules and neurons, and the subjective level. http://discovermagazine.com/1992/nov/whatisconsciousn149 This subjective experience can not be explained via a materialistic approach. Even when we have images of the brain etc. The Subjective feeling of what it means to be you can not be explained by the scientific method. Professor David Chalmers says: I argue that neuroscience alone isn't enough to explain consciousness, but I think it will be a major part of an eventual theory. We just need to add something else, some new fundamental principles, to bridge the gap between neuroscience and subjective experience. http://www.ditext.com/chalmers/chalm.html Another quote: There are a lot of hard problems in the world, but only one gets to call itself “the hard problem”. That is the problem of consciousness – how 1300 grams or so of nerve cells conjures up the seamless kaleidoscope of sensations, thoughts, memories and emotions that occupy every waking moment… The hard problem remains unresolved.” New Scientist: The Collection. The Big Questions. Volume I, Issue I, p. 51. The problem is there is no materialistic solution to this. It does not conform with the scientific method and therefore lies outside the scope of science. Materialist attempts have failed to comprehensively explain our subjective personal experiences. I argue that God is the best explanation to explain this and the reasons are as follows: 1. Where does consciousness come from? Theism best explains this. 2. Theism answers how consciousness entered the physical world. 3. Theism has greater explanatory power. It is something deeply rooted in the very essence of reality. The materialist view point is a thing of miracles as it fails to explain how consciousness popped into existence through just physical processes. 4. Theism explains the gap between nonphysical mental and physical brain states and how they interact. 5. Theism explains why we have an awareness of what it means to be you Now, the jump between materialistic naturalistic explanation and the subjective experience is too much. There has to be something that bridges that gap. This is where i feel a theistic explanation is the best explanation and makes perfect sense. |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by logicboy01: 9:58pm On Sep 14, 2014 |
tbaba12345:  Because theism is now science. Time for me too sleep. I have dealt with enough ridiculous arguments from Tbaba for one day/thread |
| Re: So Did You Hear About This Christian Terrorist? by Kay17: 11:07pm On Sep 14, 2014 |
tbaba12345: Here is another loophole, the so called moral facts are not binding on God as the source of the commands. If they were truly objective, they would be binding on God. |
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